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Old 2009-09-20, 12:21   Link #1861
TJR
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Originally Posted by Manic View Post
Spoiler for about the endings:
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-09-20, 12:47   Link #1862
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TJR: Er, what?

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Old 2009-09-20, 12:49   Link #1863
Zwei
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Is it that hard to copy/paste from wikipedia? lulz

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-09-20, 13:19   Link #1864
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Quote:
Is it that hard to copy/paste from wikipedia? lulz
It was harder to write that actually...
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Old 2009-09-20, 14:03   Link #1865
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Sigh, so from what I am reading they are going with the Cal dying, a shame really because I really liked Cal(i didnt see the drei episodes yet, stopped after the sniper escipade)

Well, I suppose someone had to die in the end, another shame that it was the one who had spent the least amout of time in their world staining themselves. But if Reiji and Elen died insted, I guess the series wouldnt be very interesting anymore.

If I ever get around to finishing this series, I likely wont be able to forgive Reiji for her death.

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I was thinking the same thing. As much as I don't want it to happen, its a feasible end. And after Elen and Cal are gone, Reiji has to live happily ever after (as much as possible) with Mio (redemption).. otherwise I will hate it.
I could get behind this. With Cal dead I would like to see Reiji leave behind all traces of his life and do the Mio thing. I could ultimatly find this to be a satisfactory ending, rather than just a repetitive tragedy.
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Old 2009-09-20, 14:03   Link #1866
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Well, then Wikipedia is wrong, too. Happens, you know.

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Old 2009-09-20, 14:27   Link #1867
germanturkey
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well, caught up with Valkyria this weekend, looks like i'll catch up with this next weekend. it's a long weekend too. thanks yom kippur. does the series speed up any from its initial 1-12 or so pacing?
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Old 2009-09-20, 14:31   Link #1868
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Well, then Wikipedia is wrong, too. Happens, you know.
The problem really isn't in the fact that it is wrong, but in the fact that those summaries can be misleading as they don't go into enough detail. And people ALWAYS get the wrong picture when they read that instead of reading something more detailed or playing the game.
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Old 2009-09-20, 14:54   Link #1869
orion
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Originally Posted by klare View Post

- so far my prediction of only Reiji and Mio survive is on track, but the preview shows Reiji saying he will keep one last promise, could it be the promise of finding Elen's root? not sure he will do it alone or with Elen (i dont mind my prediction to be wrong )
That's good considering what the title of this is called and who the character goods champ for this series is. It was Ein/Elen's show from the beginning and the ending was hinted at long ago in one of the episodes imo.

It was a bit clear as to whose final game pathway we were in also as far back as episode 21 imo though the animators did try to make it ambiguous.

Spoiler for ep. 26 survivors opinion:


In the end, SM used Cal all along to get a matchup between the 2 Phantoms and his Numbered Sisters. That was pure evil. Nicely played too.

Elen showed off her Phantom skills without getting injured. Yeah Elen! She was his first creation. Zwei and Drei were experiments.

Yippee! The beast (Zwei) is back in the next episode!

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Old 2009-09-20, 16:55   Link #1870
X207
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Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
Spoiler for game:

thanks

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Old 2009-09-20, 17:14   Link #1871
Zetsubo
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Elen showed off her Phantom skills without getting injured. Yeah Elen! She was his first creation. Zwei and Drei were experiments.

Yippee! The beast (Zwei) is back in the next episode!
Umm... Zwei was created by Sycthe to be Eins perfection.

It wasn't an experiemnt but something he wanted Ein to do to complete herself.

It makes no sense your perfect creation dies with no sire, so that creation must "reproduce" and create others like it.

In a twist, Zwei was Eins son.
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Old 2009-09-20, 19:40   Link #1872
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game endings (minus Elen)

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Old 2009-09-20, 20:47   Link #1873
Angrypokstick
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For the written novel the ending was way happier
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Old 2009-09-20, 23:09   Link #1874
Mei19
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Not trying to be a prick here, but last time I posted something regarding a "game ending" spoilers, a mod gave me an infraction declaring that we should "not discuss subjects such as the VN ending in an anime-only discussion thread, not even if you use spoiler tags!". So now I'm wondering why all these VN/game ending discussion still going on here and being tolerated. Was I just getting picked on? Are we allowed to post VN spoilers here or not? I want to make that clear because this is just dern tootin' weird....

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Old 2009-09-21, 07:48   Link #1875
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by Mei19 View Post
Not trying to be a prick here, but last time I posted something regarding a "game ending" spoilers, a mod gave me an infraction declaring that we should "not discuss subjects such as the VN ending in an anime-only discussion thread, not even if you use spoiler tags!". So now I'm wondering why all these VN/game ending discussion still going on here and being tolerated. Was I just getting picked on? Are we allowed to post VN spoilers here or not? I want to make that clear because this is just dern tootin' weird....

No.. you are correct. VN discussion belongs in the VN thread.


And I'm still having trouble falling asleep. I haven't had this much trouble since Clannad AS.
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Old 2009-09-21, 10:50   Link #1876
Sinestra
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So glad i avoided this thread before i saw the episode. So i stand corrected i never thought Reiji had what it took to kill Cal needless to say i was shocked and still very much so. I wished there would have been another way to ease her tortured soul but in the end life doesn't care about your past nor your feelings shit happens and it sucks just all around. I started to feel that there was no way for Cal to get out of this except for death and it seems to have come true.

I wish i could actually and articulately express how much i hate SM but words just don't do it, so i will just say i have never wished for a more painful death for anyone in an anime ever
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Old 2009-09-21, 11:02   Link #1877
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
I wish i could actually and articulately express how much i hate SM but words just don't do it, so i will just say i have never wished for a more painful death for anyone in an anime ever


I agree with you there man... so very much.

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Old 2009-09-21, 12:31   Link #1878
Mentar
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On another board, I've written a summary of my view on Cal's development in chapter 3. It might be interesting to others in understanding what's been making her tick, so here's a copy:

The key to understanding Cal is fairly simple: She was in love with Reiji, and the fact is that he did abandon her. Sitting in the bombed-out apartment was traumatic - she trusted Reiji unquestioningly, so she was sure that he had died, after all he had promised to come back and look for her, which he never did.

Then SM appeared and claimed that Reiji was still alive. However, being the big manipulator that he was, he framed things so that Reiji was a liar and betrayer all time long. That he had abandoned her and escaped with another woman, leaving Cal behind. And why? Because Reiji knew that Cal was so skilled that she would surpass him soon as Phantom. This bastard! If you want to attribute stupidity to Cal for believing SM, feel free - however, why should she NOT believe SM? What he's saying is making perfect sense, and he is obviously supported by the facts. Reiji did NOT return to look for Cal. He DID escape with another woman. And, even worse, when Cal eventually confronts him in Japan, she finds him on a date with YET ANOTHER girl.

Now, what does Reiji do on seeing her again? Cheer and show happiness that Cal is alive after all? No trace of that, no, he pales like having seen a ghost. And what does he do when she confronts him again, when he had time to think through all implications? He didn't try to explain anything to her. He didn't try to express happiness that Cal was alive. He said that he deserved death for what he did. HE WAS PLEADING GUILTY. He implicitly _confirmed_ Cal's (objectively wrong) suspicion that he had indeed knowingly abandoned her for Elen. He was even begging for MERCY to spare her. He cared for Elen even more than for his own life. What more proof could Cal possibly get? This is when she blew her gasket and harmed Reiji for the first time ever, punching her disappointment and frustration into him.

Bitter about the outcome, she was drinking with Lizzie, who tried to tell Cal that Reiji did try to protect her in the past. But for Cal - Reiji's guilt now proven - a different memory was more prevalent: His efforts to keep Cal OUT of the underworld. As an omniscient viewer, we know it was to spare Cal the horrible life. Based on what SM said, it was because he was afraid she would take his place as phantom. So, Cal misunderstands what Lizzie was trying to tell her: Namely, that the "he was protecting you" (from Inferno's Wisemel, what Cal couldn't know) was rather about the attempt to keep Cal at bay.

So what does Reiji do next? He blackmails the Godoh Group threatening to kill Mio, the same girl he was on a DATE with two times for crying out loud. How much of a bastard do you have to be to do that? Then again, Cal KNOWS that he is a betraying lying bastard, so she is only annoyed that she is ordered out of Reiji's fur. However, she's smart enough to correctly figure out that this threat is actually just a bluff (a scene from the VN where she confronts Reiji and Mio in a family restaurant once more was omitted, from which she could deduce that Reiji was worried about Mio), and she's turning the tables on him by abducting Mio herself, and so preventing his disappearance.

However, this was when she started to have doubts again. If he was such a bastard using all women, why would he suddenly show concern for Mio? And things got even worse when Mio started talking to her about Reiji. Because Mio was telling her stories from the Reiji of old, the caring Reiji, the Reiji she loved. It was just like a time jump - Mio like the Cal of old, wrapped in the loving care of the Reiji of old. At first, Cal tried to laugh it off, and thought of Mio nothing but a spoiled princess without a clue, deceived just like she did. But Mio's inner strength, her conviction and perseverance were increasingly hard for Cal to overcome. And when Mio insisted - and stuck to it under pressure - that Reiji had told her that he was GLAD to have seen Cal alive again, a dam of bitterness broke and she got violent with Mio. But when her rage was over, she had to admit to herself that she WANTED to believe, and that she only wanted to be with him again. Not to kill him. But there was no way she could return to these old days.

Mio had done nothing to her, so she essentially apologized to her and set her free. Cal was determined to end the charade now, by being true to what she thought she was: Phantom. This aspect was explained in the bar scene. Confronting herself with the ghosts of the past (Judy, Lizzie) she admits to herself that nothing at all will come out of this confrontation, but she angrily retorts that nothing would come out of any other thing she could do either. The omelette was baked, there was no way to make eggs out of it anymore. But at least she could go out as Phantom: In the past, as Cal, she had always been the victim of murder and destruction. But as Phantom, she wasn't the victim anymore, she was the one inflicting this harm on others. She couldn't stand being the victim, it had broken her in the past. Being Phantom was her way of protecting herself from her victim past. So she resigned herself to die, as the hollow bravado shell of Phantom - but no victim.

Reiji was never a help in all this. Instead of understanding the urgent call from Mio, that Cal was not beyond the pale and could be saved if he was just able to talk to her, he once more essentially abandoned Cal by forcing the duel on her. It's a position I can understand to a degree by saying that leaving Cal alive endangers the other people Reiji has sworn to protect, but it was a hollow way to do it (which is why I prefer the resolution to the Cal path). About the duel itself: Cal's talk with Mio, later with the ghosts ("I'll kill her and then I'll burn out") and finally burning her Bugatti made clear that she wanted to die this night.

It's obvious why Cal was happy in the end: The nightmare was over, and she could see for herself that Reiji was crying over her. In the final minute, she finally had the guy she loved for herself, and it was clear that both shared the same dream. That they would have been happy together, if the circumstances hadn't forced them apart. That he genuinely cared for her and shed tears for her. And so she died.
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Old 2009-09-21, 12:54   Link #1879
willyvereb
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Well, then just think about it otherwise. We have Reiji who knows Cal's misled and even if she has doubts she's heading for suicide. And plus Reiji cares about Ein the most.
He can't confess exactly to her and I bet Cal wouldn't understand it well if Reiji says he cared and cares about him but he likes Elen. Drei/Cal is the most possessive of the three. She wants Reiji all for herself. With the things heading that way he can't convince her with just a simple talk when she's prepared for a duel to death.
Cal's hatred is still inside and strong. She has doubts at least, but she's stubborn and strong-willed.
If Reiji emotionally breaks out and says he loves her then it's maybe enough of an impact, but not some frank talk he could have done then.
Perhaps if we've got a Cal/Drei ending...
But the anime barely had a weak build-up for that.
As I said things going differently in a VN and in an anime.
That's why the 'First Girl Wins' trope is so strong in an anime.
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Old 2009-09-21, 13:11   Link #1880
Arkard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
On another board, I've written a summary of my view on Cal's development in chapter 3. It might be interesting to others in understanding what's been making her tick, so here's a copy:

The key to understanding Cal is fairly simple: She was in love with Reiji, and the fact is that he did abandon her. Sitting in the bombed-out apartment was traumatic - she trusted Reiji unquestioningly, so she was sure that he had died, after all he had promised to come back and look for her, which he never did.

Then SM appeared and claimed that Reiji was still alive. However, being the big manipulator that he was, he framed things so that Reiji was a liar and betrayer all time long. That he had abandoned her and escaped with another woman, leaving Cal behind. And why? Because Reiji knew that Cal was so skilled that she would surpass him soon as Phantom. This bastard! If you want to attribute stupidity to Cal for believing SM, feel free - however, why should she NOT believe SM? What he's saying is making perfect sense, and he is obviously supported by the facts. Reiji did NOT return to look for Cal. He DID escape with another woman. And, even worse, when Cal eventually confronts him in Japan, she finds him on a date with YET ANOTHER girl.

Now, what does Reiji do on seeing her again? Cheer and show happiness that Cal is alive after all? No trace of that, no, he pales like having seen a ghost. And what does he do when she confronts him again, when he had time to think through all implications? He didn't try to explain anything to her. He didn't try to express happiness that Cal was alive. He said that he deserved death for what he did. HE WAS PLEADING GUILTY. He implicitly _confirmed_ Cal's (objectively wrong) suspicion that he had indeed knowingly abandoned her for Elen. He was even begging for MERCY to spare her. He cared for Elen even more than for his own life. What more proof could Cal possibly get? This is when she blew her gasket and harmed Reiji for the first time ever, punching her disappointment and frustration into him.

Bitter about the outcome, she was drinking with Lizzie, who tried to tell Cal that Reiji did try to protect her in the past. But for Cal - Reiji's guilt now proven - a different memory was more prevalent: His efforts to keep Cal OUT of the underworld. As an omniscient viewer, we know it was to spare Cal the horrible life. Based on what SM said, it was because he was afraid she would take his place as phantom. So, Cal misunderstands what Lizzie was trying to tell her: Namely, that the "he was protecting you" (from Inferno's Wisemel, what Cal couldn't know) was rather about the attempt to keep Cal at bay.

So what does Reiji do next? He blackmails the Godoh Group threatening to kill Mio, the same girl he was on a DATE with two times for crying out loud. How much of a bastard do you have to be to do that? Then again, Cal KNOWS that he is a betraying lying bastard, so she is only annoyed that she is ordered out of Reiji's fur. However, she's smart enough to correctly figure out that this threat is actually just a bluff (a scene from the VN where she confronts Reiji and Mio in a family restaurant once more was omitted, from which she could deduce that Reiji was worried about Mio), and she's turning the tables on him by abducting Mio herself, and so preventing his disappearance.

However, this was when she started to have doubts again. If he was such a bastard using all women, why would he suddenly show concern for Mio? And things got even worse when Mio started talking to her about Reiji. Because Mio was telling her stories from the Reiji of old, the caring Reiji, the Reiji she loved. It was just like a time jump - Mio like the Cal of old, wrapped in the loving care of the Reiji of old. At first, Cal tried to laugh it off, and thought of Mio nothing but a spoiled princess without a clue, deceived just like she did. But Mio's inner strength, her conviction and perseverance were increasingly hard for Cal to overcome. And when Mio insisted - and stuck to it under pressure - that Reiji had told her that he was GLAD to have seen Cal alive again, a dam of bitterness broke and she got violent with Mio. But when her rage was over, she had to admit to herself that she WANTED to believe, and that she only wanted to be with him again. Not to kill him. But there was no way she could return to these old days.

Mio had done nothing to her, so she essentially apologized to her and set her free. Cal was determined to end the charade now, by being true to what she thought she was: Phantom. This aspect was explained in the bar scene. Confronting herself with the ghosts of the past (Judy, Lizzie) she admits to herself that nothing at all will come out of this confrontation, but she angrily retorts that nothing would come out of any other thing she could do either. The omelette was baked, there was no way to make eggs out of it anymore. But at least she could go out as Phantom: In the past, as Cal, she had always been the victim of murder and destruction. But as Phantom, she wasn't the victim anymore, she was the one inflicting this harm on others. She couldn't stand being the victim, it had broken her in the past. Being Phantom was her way of protecting herself from her victim past. So she resigned herself to die, as the hollow bravado shell of Phantom - but no victim.

Reiji was never a help in all this. Instead of understanding the urgent call from Mio, that Cal was not beyond the pale and could be saved if he was just able to talk to her, he once more essentially abandoned Cal by forcing the duel on her. It's a position I can understand to a degree by saying that leaving Cal alive endangers the other people Reiji has sworn to protect, but it was a hollow way to do it (which is why I prefer the resolution to the Cal path). About the duel itself: Cal's talk with Mio, later with the ghosts ("I'll kill her and then I'll burn out") and finally burning her Bugatti made clear that she wanted to die this night.

It's obvious why Cal was happy in the end: The nightmare was over, and she could see for herself that Reiji was crying over her. In the final minute, she finally had the guy she loved for herself, and it was clear that both shared the same dream. That they would have been happy together, if the circumstances hadn't forced them apart. That he genuinely cared for her and shed tears for her. And so she died.
Well explained.
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