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Old 2009-09-21, 13:16   Link #1881
Zwei
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I love how Cal fans are trying to justify her actions and putting all the blame on Reiji without seeing her faults. I have yet to see a person who realizes that Reiji is not a "hero" nor a "good person", alot of people are comparing him to other anime protagonists, where he has to be a bitch for the girl and be the perfect man without making any mistakes.
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Old 2009-09-21, 13:29   Link #1882
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
I have yet to see a person who realizes that Reiji is not a "hero" nor a "good person", alot of people are comparing him to other anime protagonists, where he has to be a bitch for the girl and be the perfect man without making any mistakes.
Oh, I realized that alright after he killed a child.

He's not fighting for any noble cause or anything like that. We're just seeing him struggle to be free. Heck, the story doesn't even deal with the question of whether he deserves to be free (or to be alive for that matter) or not.

So yeah... talking about how he fucked up things and so on is pretty pointless, because he isn't a "good guy" to begin with.
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Old 2009-09-21, 13:38   Link #1883
Xander
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That's obviously true, but it doesn't mean he didn't have a choice. The fact is that while Reiji was never perfect and couldn't possibly do everything right, there were always other options and his decisions contributed to setting up this situation. Isn't that a bit obvious too? Reiji isn't the only factor, but he's definitely an important one.

It's perfectly legitimate to wonder about what he or anyone else in the story could have done differently.
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Old 2009-09-21, 13:52   Link #1884
Nayrael
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Quote:
Perhaps if we've got a Cal/Drei ending...
But the anime barely had a weak build-up for that.
As I said things going differently in a VN and in an anime.
As a VN reader I can tell you that Mentar's post is based on anime version and is not much influenced by the VN (actually, I think that it even contradicts the VN in few points).

Quote:
I love how Cal fans are trying to justify her actions and putting all the blame on Reiji without seeing her faults. I have yet to see a person who realizes that Reiji is not a "hero" nor a "good person", alot of people are comparing him to other anime protagonists, where he has to be a bitch for the girl and be the perfect man without making any mistakes.
1. I don't know for other Cal fans or Mentar, but I only justify the reasons, not the actions. What she does IS evil

2. Reiji IS to blame (tough I don't claim that he is completely to blame) for what happened, no matter what kind of a character he is. Be it either an complete asshole or an over emotional protagonist, he didn't do something honorable and many watchers will not be satisfied by his actions, no matter what decision he makes.
It is like saying that a terrorist should not be blamed for killing hundreds of people because he is a type of a guy who likes to blow up people. Or like saying that people should not hate Scyhte because he is not a type of a character who is fighting for a noble cause. It is like saying that we should not blame Cal for what she does because she herself is not a nice person either.
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Old 2009-09-21, 13:58   Link #1885
Zwei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayrael View Post
Reiji IS to blame (tough I don't claim that he is completely to blame) for what happened, no matter what kind of a character he is. Be it either an complete asshole or an over emotional protagonist, he didn't do something honorable and many watchers will not be satisfied by his actions, no matter what decision he makes.
It is like saying that a terrorist should not be blamed for killing hundreds of people because he is a type of a guy who likes to blow up people. Or like saying that people should not hate Scyhte because he is not a type of a character who is fighting for a noble cause. It is like saying that we should not blame Cal for what she does because she herself is not a nice person either.
How is Reiji to blame for everything?

She was the one who wanted to go with him and decided to live with him. She was the one that quickly believed Reiji abandoned her and believed in Sycthe's words. She was also the one that choose to become an assassin and murder people.

She was also the one who choose revenge, for no reason whatsoever just because she misinterpreted Reiji's kindness for love. Ein choose Sycthe over Reiji but he didn't go and bitch about it, she realized the mistake by herself.
Reiji's actions may have been wrong, but all he was trying to do was to survive in this harsh world he got dragged into.
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Old 2009-09-21, 14:08   Link #1886
DragoZERO
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Okay.. like Mentar said.. he did nothing to defend himself. He did try to explain what went through his mind. He didn't explain how, what I think to be important, he left the burned down apartment looking to get killed.

Cal's tragedy is attributed to herself, Reiji and most of all, Scythe.
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Old 2009-09-21, 14:16   Link #1887
Nayrael
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Quote:
How is Reiji to blame for everything?

She was the one who wanted to go with him and decided to live with him. She was the one that quickly believed Reiji abandoned her and believed in Sycthe's words. She was also the one that choose to become an assassin and murder people.

She was also the one who choose revenge, for no reason whatsoever just because she misinterpreted Reiji's kindness for love. Ein choose Sycthe over Reiji but he didn't go and bitch about it, she realized the mistake by herself.
Reiji's actions may have been wrong, but all he was trying to do was to survive in this harsh world he got dragged into.
Re-read my post and PLEASE tell me where the hell did I say that he is to blame for everything?! He is to blame for some of his actions, but I never said that he is to be blamed for everything.

As for Cal, re-read my post again. I said that her reasons are justified, but not her actions. I do not deny that her actions are wrong. Denying them would in fact be an insult to Cal, IMO.
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Old 2009-09-21, 14:25   Link #1888
Zwei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayrael View Post
Re-read my post and PLEASE tell me where the hell did I say that he is to blame for everything?! He is to blame for some of his actions, but I never said that he is to be blamed for everything.

As for Cal, re-read my post again. I said that her reasons are justified, but not her actions. I do not deny that her actions are wrong. Denying them would in fact be an insult to Cal, IMO.
Then why the hell did you respond to my post? I don't get some people sometimes...
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Old 2009-09-21, 14:30   Link #1889
Spikestrip
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Zwei is totaly right about his judgements. There are a lot of people who are bored of this endless "Cal has a reason" discussion. Some of them state their opinions (especially in myanimelist.net) but most of them prefer to stay aside and stop reading even the arguements.

I don't want to get into an arguement but please understand this at least: people have the right to dislike or hate Cal. The reasons for disliking or hating her are also valid! You don't need to do a long analysis to prove that.
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Old 2009-09-21, 14:34   Link #1890
Manic
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I don't want to get into an arguement but please understand this at least: people have the right to dislike or hate Cal.
lol well the same can be said with the ppl who keep arguing on the opposite side. Most of the Cal fans on here havent really pushed their opinions on anyone just expressing their views.

I think most ppl on here accept that it was a pretty shitty thing and cal and reiji were both to blame.
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Old 2009-09-21, 14:40   Link #1891
DragoZERO
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Well.. it is fact that not one person is to blame. Its the contributions of several individuals that led to the conclusion of these events.
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Old 2009-09-21, 15:18   Link #1892
g1alpha
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People should stop expecting anything from Reiji/Zwei's ethics. His favorite phrase starting from episode 1 was "I will kill to live"
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Old 2009-09-21, 16:30   Link #1893
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
How is Reiji to blame for everything?
Not for everything, of course. Cal needs to shoulder her own part of the guilt, and lord knows that's alot. But the fact is that it was indeed Reiji who first unknowingly condemned Cal to an underworld life (by not looking for her - we know why, but still, it wouldn't have hurt to at least look once more), and most notably for PLEADING GUILTY and therefore sending the entirely wrong signal to Cal after their reunion. That was disastrous. And finally, I have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that until the very end, he never once tried to explain to her what really happened. Not a single time.

Quote:
She was the one who wanted to go with him and decided to live with him. She was the one that quickly believed Reiji abandoned her and believed in Sycthe's words. She was also the one that choose to become an assassin and murder people.
The two of them promised to stay together. And the facts were on SM's side when he manipulated her. Finally, the reason why she became an assassing (to switch the victim with the phantom role) was explained in the end too.

Quote:
She was also the one who choose revenge, for no reason whatsoever just because she misinterpreted Reiji's kindness for love. Ein choose Sycthe over Reiji but he didn't go and bitch about it, she realized the mistake by herself.
Yeah. If Reiji had shown a quarter of the same consideration and effort to explain things to Cal, things probably could have been averted ^_^;

Quote:
Reiji's actions may have been wrong, but all he was trying to do was to survive in this harsh world he got dragged into.
You could say the same about Cal, you know.

As you know, my note was a rebuttal to yet another blanket criticism of Cal and the anime as "stupid", by pointing out the intrinsics, and what caused the sequence of events. I'm not trying to whitewash Cal at all - she has a vindictive and cruel streak which eventually led to her demise. She might have had a few other options, where she chose crime and murder. But her character isn't a blanket stupid vehicle that bumbled around in a bad story script. Her development was displayed very meticulously. That's what I wanted to highlight.
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Old 2009-09-21, 16:44   Link #1894
Zwei
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Yeah. If Reiji had shown a quarter of the same consideration and effort to explain things to Cal, things probably could have been averted ^_^;
She didn't show any interest at all to hear his explanations to begin with, and even then she would still have carried on her revenge.
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Old 2009-09-21, 17:06   Link #1895
willyvereb
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...Mentar you keep forgeting that Cal wasn't rational the whole time. If Reiji would've loved her the most maybe he can convince her with a really obvious confession, but it wasn't the case. He loved/cared the most about Ein. And so believed her the most and placed her cause as first priority.
He may have talked with Cal, but I doubt he could've convinced her. We have Cal who controlled by her jealusy and hatred comes for a duel-to-death and has suicidious thoughts. She isn't somone you can talk rationally.
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Old 2009-09-21, 17:16   Link #1896
DragoZERO
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Seriously, the fact that we are still discussing this as were is a true testament to how great this anime has become. You'd think it be more popular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
But her character isn't a blanket stupid vehicle that bumbled around in a bad story script. Her development was displayed very meticulously. That's what I wanted to highlight.
Now, that is true! They sure did take the time to go through the motions - it was not a forced conclusion or anything. More props to the series.

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Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
She didn't show any interest at all to hear his explanations to begin with, and even then she would still have carried on her revenge.
I agree with you. Even if he did explain himself it wouldn't have mattered.

But I don't think she wanted to hear because she knew what he'd say and knew she might forgive him. It is easier to hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
...Mentar you keep forgeting that Cal wasn't rational the whole time. If Reiji would've loved her the most maybe he can convince her with a really obvious confession, but it wasn't the case. He loved/cared the most about Ein. And so believed her the most and placed her cause as first priority.
He may have talked with Cal, but I doubt he could've convinced her. We have Cal who controlled by her jealusy and hatred comes for a duel-to-death and has suicidious thoughts. She isn't somone you can talk rationally.
You do not know that. Both girls symbolize something different and he had different experiences with both.
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Old 2009-09-21, 17:26   Link #1897
willyvereb
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Really? I doubt it...he wouldn't choose to kill her then no matter what. We know well that Reiji's full of sense of guilty and he's ready to sacrafice himself for the one he loves.
That's why Ein didn't want Reiji to face Cal. But if Reiji rally decided to kill her in the end it means he cares more about Ein. He would gladly let himself killed by Cal instead shooting her if it wasn't the case.

And about Cal. She was confused like hell in the end...do you really expect her to think clearly?
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Old 2009-09-21, 17:27   Link #1898
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
You do not know that. Both girls symbolize something different and he had different experiences with both.
Well, his decision at least made it clear that while she cared a great deal about Cal, she wasn't the most important thing in his life. Was it Elen? We don't know (as you said), but it doesn't matter. If Reiji didn't love Cal above everything else, and he didn't, I too doubt he would have been able to talk her out of her hatred.

Of course it doesn't chage the fact that he didn't even tried. But then again, that's Reiji for you. For all those mad assassin skills, he's still just an eroge male protagonist, and his brain works (or doesn't) that way lol
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Old 2009-09-21, 18:10   Link #1899
maplehurry
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Quote:
And about Cal. She was confused like hell in the end...do you really expect her to think clearly?
Well, just like you said, if Reiji intentionally lost the duel, then it would've changed Cal's mind. Or in other endings in which something else occurred that changed her mind...
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Old 2009-09-21, 18:29   Link #1900
Lady Orihime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic View Post
Spoiler for about the endings:
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
Spoiler:
QFT.

-------

Cal's reasons to kill were NOT justified. NO ONE is justified to KILL someone, unless it's self defense or they are in a hostile situation. Cal wanted revenge, she had a personal vendetta, plain and simple. Reiji was going to kill or be killed, because Cal was hell-bent on killing him. He chose to leave it to fate, and his fate was NOT to die by Cal's hands.

Last edited by Lady Orihime; 2009-09-21 at 18:45.
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