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Old 2009-09-22, 01:24   Link #1921
Zwei
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
And just injuring her instead of killing her? Man...who came up with that idea? It's not some kind of fps. In those situation you aim with real guns, feel real pressure, and the whole time you don't see a 2d crosshair to show your aim...
City hunter could do it though :/ Why can't Reiji? lol.
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Old 2009-09-22, 01:28   Link #1922
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That would have made no sense. He always thought she was dead, she also changed alot from 2 years ago, both physically and mentally. He was still in disbelief.

You can't go with the "what if" theory, because there will be countless conclusions and we will debate endlessly. Also what's with the ogling her chest thing? I don't get it unless you're trying to be funny, then lol.

Elen was his top priority ever since he decided to go with her 2 years before. Elen is something special in his heart, she is the only person who can understand him because they both went through the same thing and both live in the same worlds. He will never let go of Elen no matter what. Cal was threatning to kill Elen, but Reiji didn't want to risk it, he decided to confront Cal and also to confront his past.

Reiji also made a promise with Elen, to find her past. He also made a promise with Cal to stay together forever, he tried to fulfill that promise by dying, since he thought Cal was dead but he was unable to as he had gained a new reason to live, Elen.

It's obvious that Ein is my favorite character out of the female cast. I love her character, her design, her personality and her assassination skills. Heck, I even like her name, lol.
I see. So that's how you got that conclusion. "Interpretation" combined with a good measure of "fill in the blanks." Ah well, we all got our own biases, which makes us interpret things differently. The world really is what you make of it, huh.

About the whole ogling thing. Earlier on, I made a comment on how Reiji's IQ seems to drop by a few dozen points whenever adult! Cal's around. Then I tried to justify this by saying that he was just too busy admiring her figure to form coherent thought. Then I tried to establish precedent by linking this to Claudia, her "lush figure", and how easily she played Reiji earlier on. My "theory": if the two years of growth hadn't been so ridiculously kind to Cal, they would have reconciled and she would have lived. Does it make more sense now?

Btw, we can't discuss "what ifs" but "chance" is perfectly alright? The moment you said there was no chance for Reiji to explain and I chose to disagree, we were all set to debate endlessly. Heh.

Last edited by telamont; 2009-09-22 at 02:27.
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Old 2009-09-22, 01:38   Link #1923
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Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
City hunter could do it though :/ Why can't Reiji? lol.
Cause even if Reiji showed some super-natural-like abiltites he's nowhere this inhumanly skilled like the one you showed me.
(I am in shame, but I didn'T watch City Hunter neither read it. )
Not to mention in real life it would never work.
For example that showed in the video handgranate defiled the laws of physics.
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Old 2009-09-22, 03:35   Link #1924
Lady Orihime
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Originally Posted by telamont View Post
That's one way to look at it I suppose. I see it as: Cal wanted to die, but not before taking along Ellen as a final act of jealousy. Then Reiji came along, messed up her plans and started talking out of his ass. At this point, Cal's just too tired to care. So she's like "Whatever. Let the bitch live. Big deal. I still get to die. And this way, maybe he'll shed some tears for me before I go." In that light, Reiji could have made a last ditch attempt at reconciliation, and it could have worked. Like you said, she was already questioning herself. A final push from her most important person might have done the job. But nope. "Your gun represents justice..." Yeah. We'll never know now.
No, her saying "I'm doing it because I can" etc. was when she was speaking with "Judy" and "Lizzie". Had Elen actually been there instead of Reiji, she probably would have stayed in this mind-frame of just wanting to die; especially since she was drunk. But Reiji was there, giving her a chance to take her revenge, which she wasn't expecting. This is was the moment she had been waiting for, and Reiji was willing giving it to her, and she took it.

I still doubt anything Reiji could have said would have changed her mind. When you're blood is boiling along with being drunk, you are not in the mood to negotiate. She tried to shoot a dead guy who was just her imagination. Anger, hate, guns, and alcohol should never mix. And since Cal was stubborn as a muel, that just added more fuel to the flame.

Now, if she wasn't drunk, and if Reiji honestly felt like he could get through to her...that might have had a different outcome.

Regarding Reiji shooting the gun out of Cal's hand, or whatever, that wouldn't have worked. She could have easily pulled the other one. In the VN, she had two small guns and then the big one. I don't know if she had another small one on her in the anime, but the big one wasn't far away. In addition, if he only shot her in the shoulder or leg or wherever, she still has her gun and since she is a trained and skillful assassin, she knows how to keep her eye and gun on the target and not worry about wounds until the target is dead.

-------

I'm a little mad that we don't have a summary this week...but it's understandable, since it's the last episode, and they don't want to give too much away.
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Old 2009-09-22, 06:22   Link #1925
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How Drunk was Cal, the scene did show how Broken Cal was. Cal wasn't just lossing it because of the alcohol in that scene, but I agree it wouldn't of helped. Though Cal was Drinking, when she showed up in front of Reiji Her words were spoken normally and she was perfectly able to make her way to ellen and reiji on the bike. It might have such an effect that it could of slowed down her reaction time with shooting the gun. But at least to me It didn't give the impression she drank so much it would of had that much influense on the situation if Reiji was hell bent on explaining things to her and showing her in some form that he cared.

I agree with telamont and how Cal was on on the edge. Cal basically just admitted in words (Though we have seen some parts show that Cal is unhappy, alone and in pain, we never hear Cal admit to herself that she is in fact in much pain) that she just didn't want to suffer anymore that the pain has been to much while crying! (Then the scene ended, and we go to the Ellen+Reiij then Cal+Reiji Scene) She wasn't a lost case that couldn't be saved, she just admitted that she doesn't want to be in anymore pain. And if someone like say Reiji! was to give Cal Hope!! To Reach out to Cal and show her he cared. Her mind might Switch or weaken and perphaps only words might not work but, (there is a chance it might.. ) Reiji can take other options as well and show it with his actions. Reiji wasn't cornered into the fight and I'm not sure how much this would of matter, but just to note Reiji as a Phantom was looked at as a genius and as a Phantom could make good plans. And in theory he also had the advantage of suprize to use as well.

As it showed when Cal finally Totally! Broke, in Reijis arms, she is capable of change. Even in the end Reiji never approached her and talked to her in any positive way, before she was Shot. You can say that she might of never believed him, but still he did never try. Though it might take a massive actions based on life or death or a combination of caring conversation and actions on reiji part to show that he in fact does mean it. Cant wait for next episode to see Ellen and Reiji current state of mind after this whole situation.

Last edited by evil-samurai; 2009-09-22 at 07:46.
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Old 2009-09-22, 07:05   Link #1926
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I don't really get why people keep brining up this "dream sequence", it was obviously made to mislead people, which happened alot here. Reiji could have chosen to NOT hit a vital point if he wanted to, but for some reason he really set his mind on killing Cal(I found this pretty stupid).

I don't get why Cal opened her eyes and faced reality just as she was about to die and not before, that I will never understand. Too much pride, maybe?
I think the dream sequence was what she would have wanted, if Reiji had stayed with her. I think it would have been better if she was wearing different clothes, but yeah.

While we're going in circles talking about Cal, at least someone brought up something new here. lol.
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Old 2009-09-22, 07:12   Link #1927
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That sequence could be called a "what if...?". It was most probably inspired in Cal's ending
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Old 2009-09-22, 07:45   Link #1928
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Originally Posted by evil-samurai View Post
How Drunk was Cal, the scene did show how Broken Cal was. Cal wasn't just lossing it because of the alcohol in that scene, but I agree it wouldn't of helped. Though Cal was Drinking, when she showed up in front of Reiji Her words were spoken normally and she was perfectly able to make her way to ellen and reiji on the bike. It might have such an effect that it could of slowed down her reaction time with shooting the gun. But at least to me It didn't give the impression she drank so much it would of had that much influense on the situation if Reiji was hell bent on explaining things to her and showing her in some form that he cared.

I agree with telamont and how Cal was on on the edge. Cal basically just admitted in words (Though we have seen some parts show that Cal is unhappy, alone and in pain, we never hear Cal admit to herself that she is in fact in much pain) that she just didn't want to suffer anymore that the pain has been to much while crying! (Then the scene ended, and we go to the Ellen+Reiij then Cal+Reiji Scene) She wasn't a lost case that couldn't be saved, she just admitted that she doesn't want to be in anymore pain. And if someone like say Reiji! was to give Cal Hope!! To Reach out to Cal and show her he cared. Her mind might Switch or weaken and perphaps only words might not work but, (there is a chance it might.. ) Reiji can take other options as well and show it with his actions. Reiji wasn't cornered into the fight and I'm not sure how much this would of matter, but just to note Reiji as a Phantom was looked at as a genius and as a Phantom could make good plans. And in theory he also had the advantage of suprize to use as well.

As it showed when Cal finally Totally! Broke, in Reijis arms, she is capable of change. Though it might take a massive actions based on life or death or a combination of caring conversation and actions on reiji part to show that he in fact does mean it. Still it stands the Reiji Never! Tried to explain, Even in the end Reiji never approached her and talked to her in any positive way, before she was Shot. You can say that she might of never believed him, but still he did never try. Cant wait for next episode to see Ellen and Reiji current state of mind after this whole situation.
I explained before Reiji's reason to acting that way.
He needed much of his willpower to be able to shoot her. You know what stands for determinator. stubborn as a mule and accomplishes his/her objective regardless the situation. That's what Reiji was at that scene. And the dream sequence and all showed how much he struggled inside to do it.
But he saw no way out of it so he did it anyway.
He can't allow himself the gamble to try to convince Cal at the last minute. It's not a game...you have only one chance. If he fails to convince her she simply attacks him...and if he starts to talk to her that way he loses his will to fight with her. So he's dead then...and so Elen.
It's too much of a gamble.
That's why I said he have to choose between either Cal or Elen.
He choose Elen.
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Old 2009-09-22, 08:06   Link #1929
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Well, the only time he had the chance and was actually trying to explain, she punched his face. He had no obligation whatsoever afterwards to persuade her, she was no longer the Cal he knew, Ein was his top priority and she just fell under his motto, "I will kill to live".
Jesus Christ. And YOU accuse others of being stubborn. In this scene, he didn't "explain" anything at all. He said that Cal was the stronger one, that she had the right to kill him, but that she should spare Elen. All points confirmed EXACTLY what SM had told her (and which WE, as omniscient viewers, know to be WRONG).

Nail that into your brain: He DID NOT EXPLAIN ANYTHING. He PLEADED GUILTY AND THEREFORE STUPIDLY CONFIRMED CAL'S MISCONCEPTION ABOUT HIM.
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Old 2009-09-22, 08:12   Link #1930
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
That's why I said he have to choose between either Cal or Elen.
He choose Elen.
i feel the show leans toward Reiji loves Cal more, he already decided to live with her even after he knew Elen was alive (before the apartment bombing)

but in the end, he choosed to live, which is to settle Cal's problem and live on with Elen

although i am not satisfy about how things turned out between him and Elen
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Old 2009-09-22, 08:20   Link #1931
Zwei
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Jesus Christ. And YOU accuse others of being stubborn. In this scene, he didn't "explain" anything at all. He said that Cal was the stronger one, that she had the right to kill him, but that she should spare Elen. All points confirmed EXACTLY what SM had told her (and which WE, as omniscient viewers, know to be WRONG).

Nail that into your brain: He DID NOT EXPLAIN ANYTHING. He PLEADED GUILTY AND THEREFORE STUPIDLY CONFIRMED CAL'S MISCONCEPTION ABOUT HIM.
You need to Watch Episode 22, again. I never said he explained anything to her nor have I ever said he didn't admit his mistakes, I said he tried to explain what happened. This is the conversation after everything you just said.

Cal:

"You want to protect her even if you die. After abandoning me...I can't believe you have someone else that's so important to you.

Reiji:

"No, Cal...Back then I was..." and she punches his face before he could finish.

Cal:

"I'll kill you as you wish. However, I'll continue to torture you and make you feel pain before I kill you."

I think it was pretty obvious that by now Reiji had no choice but to accept the fact that Cal changed and he couldn't do anything anymore to change it. He obviously tried to tell her what happened, but she didn't give him the chance.
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Old 2009-09-22, 08:42   Link #1932
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i feel the show leans toward Reiji loves Cal more, he already decided to live with her even after he knew Elen was alive (before the apartment bombing)

but in the end, he choosed to live, which is to settle Cal's problem and live on with Elen

although i am not satisfy about how things turned out between him and Elen
He thought Elen was dead too. Even though he saw glimpses and such, he didn't confirm it 100% until the night that the apartment exploded and he thought he lost Cal.

I just realized, he is with one girl while he thinks the other is dead and then swaps.
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Old 2009-09-22, 09:05   Link #1933
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
He thought Elen was dead too. Even though he saw glimpses and such, he didn't confirm it 100% until the night that the apartment exploded and he thought he lost Cal.

I just realized, he is with one girl while he thinks the other is dead and then swaps.
LMAO i think it just happen to turn out that way to progress the story. I honestly believe that Reiji loved Cal and still did on some level even when he killed her his feelings were real that was proven.

I never felt the romantic vibe that some did with Elen iv always seen them as a brother and sister type. As before Reiji was like a big brother to Elen but now its as if the relationship has been reversed as Elen is playing the big sister protection role. I would call Reiji and Elen family they are family on a very deep level it just so happens to be surrounded by violence blood.

The most romance i have ever felt from Reiji was with Mio. I think Mio instantly understood Reiji and as Cal chastise her for living in a safe and dream like princess world one thing never changed that was her faith and love in Reiji. A part which she had to explain to Cal who also loved Reiji but Cal never truly understood Reiji Mio did. Out of the girls in Reiji life i feel Mio would be the match for him if he could escape this world of violence with Elen being his and Mio's protector a role she would take on on her own because it would mean protecting Reiji's real smile a smile that he showed Mio several times while they were alone.

I think SM is going to see what the combined RAGE of Ein and Zwei is really like. These two trained together have a deep connection and also attuned to each other strengths and weaknesses. Its not going to be so easy to kill them i think SM is going to learn a lesson about what a puppet can do and what a free thinking person who has something to protect can do.
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Old 2009-09-22, 09:35   Link #1934
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LMAO i think it just happen to turn out that way to progress the story. I honestly believe that Reiji loved Cal and still did on some level even when he killed her his feelings were real that was proven.

I never felt the romantic vibe that some did with Elen iv always seen them as a brother and sister type. As before Reiji was like a big brother to Elen but now its as if the relationship has been reversed as Elen is playing the big sister protection role. I would call Reiji and Elen family they are family on a very deep level it just so happens to be surrounded by violence blood.
I saw more of a romantic relationship between Cal and Reiji. But that is probably because Cal was more romantic than Elen. I was surprised to see Reiji and Elen acting as brother and sister after they ran away though. I think each girl held a different place in Reiji's heart.

Quote:
The most romance i have ever felt from Reiji was with Mio. I think Mio instantly understood Reiji and as Cal chastise her for living in a safe and dream like princess world one thing never changed that was her faith and love in Reiji. A part which she had to explain to Cal who also loved Reiji but Cal never truly understood Reiji Mio did. Out of the girls in Reiji life i feel Mio would be the match for him if he could escape this world of violence with Elen being his and Mio's protector a role she would take on on her own because it would mean protecting Reiji's real smile a smile that he showed Mio several times while they were alone.
Mio is one impressive character. She withstood Cal's attacks and even after learning the truth of Reiji's past, she was still there. She may live in a princess world, but she is a lot stronger than the stereotypical princess that Cal made her out to be.

Quote:
I think SM is going to see what the combined RAGE of Ein and Zwei is really like. These two trained together have a deep connection and also attuned to each other strengths and weaknesses. Its not going to be so easy to kill them i think SM is going to learn a lesson about what a puppet can do and what a free thinking person who has something to protect can do.
I think I've been using this too much, but it fits...

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Old 2009-09-22, 09:48   Link #1935
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Originally Posted by evil-samurai View Post
How Drunk was Cal, the scene did show how Broken Cal was. Cal wasn't just lossing it because of the alcohol in that scene, but I agree it wouldn't of helped. Though Cal was Drinking, when she showed up in front of Reiji Her words were spoken normally and she was perfectly able to make her way to ellen and reiji on the bike. It might have such an effect that it could of slowed down her reaction time with shooting the gun. But at least to me It didn't give the impression she drank so much it would of had that much influense on the situation if Reiji was hell bent on explaining things to her and showing her in some form that he cared.

I agree with telamont and how Cal was on on the edge. Cal basically just admitted in words (Though we have seen some parts show that Cal is unhappy, alone and in pain, we never hear Cal admit to herself that she is in fact in much pain) that she just didn't want to suffer anymore that the pain has been to much while crying! (Then the scene ended, and we go to the Ellen+Reiij then Cal+Reiji Scene) She wasn't a lost case that couldn't be saved, she just admitted that she doesn't want to be in anymore pain. And if someone like say Reiji! was to give Cal Hope!! To Reach out to Cal and show her he cared. Her mind might Switch or weaken and perphaps only words might not work but, (there is a chance it might.. ) Reiji can take other options as well and show it with his actions. Reiji wasn't cornered into the fight and I'm not sure how much this would of matter, but just to note Reiji as a Phantom was looked at as a genius and as a Phantom could make good plans. And in theory he also had the advantage of suprize to use as well.

As it showed when Cal finally Totally! Broke, in Reijis arms, she is capable of change. Even in the end Reiji never approached her and talked to her in any positive way, before she was Shot. You can say that she might of never believed him, but still he did never try. Though it might take a massive actions based on life or death or a combination of caring conversation and actions on reiji part to show that he in fact does mean it. Cant wait for next episode to see Ellen and Reiji current state of mind after this whole situation.
I didn't say Cal being drunk was her sole reason. Her anger, her hate, her wanting revenge, her stubborness also all contributed, but the alcohol made those feelings intensify.

I don't think Cal showed any sign of "change". She just accepted that she lost, and knew that if they met under different circumstances, things wouldn't have turned out like this. She even asks Reiji "Why are you so strong?"

-------

I'm getting really tired of saying this, but CAL DID NOT WANT AN EXPLANATION. SHE DID NOT WANT ANY EXCUSES. SHE DIDN'T CARE. ALL SHE KNEW WAS THAT REIJI LEFT WITH HER MONEY AND WITH ANOTHER GIRL, AND SCYTHE'S REINFORCING THAT ONLY MADE HER HATE DEEPEN. Reiji could have tied her up, and gagged her, and explained, and she still wouldn't have forgiven him because she truly believed in him. Do you know how hard it is to trust and believe someone again after hurting them in a terrible way? Reiji may have thought she was dead, but he didn't look. He just skipped town, and that's the truth. How would he have explained to Cal why he didn't look, so that she forgives him? Cal thought he was dead at first, but she looked. IMO, the dream sequence was hers since she has the inner monologue about "in a dream" after they have drawn their guns. And in that dream sequence, she says that Reiji isn't so stupid as to just leave the area and not look for her...but in REALITY, he IS that stupid.
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Old 2009-09-22, 10:02   Link #1936
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Cal didn't want an explanation. That's all there is to it. She wanted to pass judgment on Reiji herself. She says so in the episode:
Just like I wrote to Zwei before: The "explanation" Reiji gave incorrectly confirmed Cal's misconception. I'm not so sure that she really wanted to kill Reiji herself in the end (though this is probably up to everyone else to decide.

I'm referring to her inner monologue with the ghosts. She wanted to kill Elen and then burn out. I don't see Reiji on her death list anymore. He was not invited in the church. And still she burnt her Bugatti before entering.

Quote:
Cal not only wanted revenge, but she wanted to prove she was stronger than Reiji. Cal wanted the duel, and Reiji obliged to it because there was no other way to settle this.
Almost. Cal never pushed the duel idea to Reiji. The only girl she mentioned it to was Mio, and she didn't pass it on - it also was before she broke down and admitted to herself that she still loved him (after Mio's work on him).

In the end it was Reiji who pushed the duel on her. She was surprised, but then accepted for the reason you gave.

Quote:
Was he supposed to stand there with his thumb up his ass and let her shoot at him point blank? Was he supposed to be on the run from her for the rest of his life?
Reiji invited himself, he was not supposed to be there. What he should have done was take Mio's advice and talked to her properly. Whether or not it could have averted the tragedy is secondary (though I give it a fair chance, based on Cal's reactions in the Cal and Mio paths: There, all it took was to give strong evidence that he really cared for her to turn Cal around). It was worth a try anyway. And sorry, it's simply not true that "Cal didn't listen to his explanations". First he pleaded guilty, and then he never gave any.

Quote:
She wouldn't even listen to her visions of Judy, Lizzie, and the Chinese dude, which were representations of herself questioning her acts. If she wouldn't listen to herself, she wasn't going to listen to anyone else. She just didn't care. Quote, "I'm doing it because I can."
Oh, she cared alright, she just stubbornly insisted to the ghosts that it made no difference. Did she really sound like someone who calmly stated a genuine belief? This was the reaction of a drunk who got mad because she realized that things were not the way she really wanted. The key quotes were at the end: All her life she had destruction and loss done to her, so she turned into phantom in order not to be a victim anymore.

I mean, it's water under a bridge, but this is the main problem I have with Reiji in the Elen path: How he unintentionally, but with devastating result, screwed up dealing with Cal.



I don't think the title has anything to do with a characters death. I think it just means that it's the Requiem for the title of "Phantom".[/QUOTE]
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Old 2009-09-22, 10:08   Link #1937
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Originally Posted by Lady Orihime View Post
I'm getting really tired of saying this, but CAL DID NOT WANT AN EXPLANATION. SHE DID NOT WANT ANY EXCUSES. SHE DIDN'T CARE. ALL SHE KNEW WAS THAT REIJI LEFT WITH HER MONEY AND WITH ANOTHER GIRL, AND SCYTHE'S REINFORCING THAT ONLY MADE HER HATE DEEPEN. Reiji could have tied her up, and gagged her, and explained, and she still wouldn't have forgiven him because she truly believed in him.
Well, feel free to believe that, but I'm not so sure. If she didn't care, why did Cal react the way she did in the end? Besides, she believed it just alright in the other paths...

The difference is that there, Reiji made real efforts convincing Cal, while here, he went for the showdown. I can understand his reasoning, but heck - your "it was all futile, it was the only way" sounds more like convincing yourself to me *shrug*
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Old 2009-09-22, 10:20   Link #1938
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Well, feel free to believe that, but I'm not so sure. If she didn't care, why did Cal react the way she did in the end? Besides, she believed it just alright in the other paths...

The difference is that there, Reiji made real efforts convincing Cal, while here, he went for the showdown. I can understand his reasoning, but heck - your "it was all futile, it was the only way" sounds more like convincing yourself to me *shrug*
But we are actually talking about the anime not the VN.

Otherwise you should also mention the special particular scene the anime skipped between Reiji and Elen.
That way he would have had more reason to kill Cal and protect Elen from her.
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Old 2009-09-22, 10:24   Link #1939
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But we are actually talking about the anime not the VN.
The "she wouldn't have listened anyway" didn't happen in the anime either.

Quote:
Otherwise you should also mention the special particular scene the anime skipped between Reiji and Elen.
That way he would have had more reason to kill Cal and protect Elen from her.
Not really. Unless you want to turn Reiji into a real bastard by making him think "hey, I love Elen, so let's gun down Cal and be done with it". That would taint his motivation quite a bit in my eyes.
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Old 2009-09-22, 11:00   Link #1940
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Did anyone else see this?

Spoiler for Picture of anime Cal (DDT?):
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