Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Yu Ominae

Anyone know the name of the university Kati, Billy and Leesa attended years ago? Didn't catch the name.

All that's said is Union Territory, International University.

[Galerian]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

A-Laws does not only fight terrorist organizations. Seel was an officially recognized and legitimate government. Yes, they were associating with terrorists but you'd be hard press to find a government in the world which didn't on certain levels. I don't believe this is an EF project either. It seems to be only a collaboration between Ribbons and Wang so far. Ribbons probably used his backdoor connections and influence in EF to get it built but I doubt they actually know much about it true purpose.

I went 'hahaha' when I read this.

You really think a country like Seel would start a conventional war against the Earth Federation? No, they would most likely finance and supply terrorists (a time tested method as you said). Hence, A-LAWS would still be fighting the same kind war even though a legitimate government is involved. So, they still won't need such a weapon.

As for the EF not knowing what the Memento Mori would do after it completion. Pfff. You can use backdoor connections and influence to smuggle some arms, not to construct a giant orbital battlestation that dwarfs cariers. I find it hard to believe.

Oh and as for nuclear weapons not being cheap. Unfortunately they are. Why do think relative poor countries like Iran and North-Korea these days have/had/can-have their own nuclear programs. They could turn out nuclear weapons by the dozens if we let them.

@wtfftw

'pretty much destroys what Galerian said'? Arguments aside, I find it hard to believe one opinion can destroy another.

[wtfftw]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Which are much dirtier than newer hydrogen bombs, or even the modern tactical devices. Lower altitude meant more more radioactive soil, you see.



But not nearly as many as those who died in the initial blast, nor were the cities dead zones for a generation or more afterwardds.
Not even half of a hundred years, you say? And those advances in modern medicine we already touched on?

They used to do literal scorched-earth campaigns, you know. I'm not merely talking about the Russians destroying buildings, bridges, and crops. I'm talking about literally ruining the earth to the point where it is unusable. Roma salted the fields of Carthage, and made a desert out of Israel and called it peace.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki have returned within a lifetime. Not exactly proof of scorched-earth nuclear warfare.

The Memento Mori is not a knife. If you want a knife, you buy a knife: it costs far too much more for the marginal utility to buy a Claymore and then try and use it to whittle wood. Marginal utility, I might advise you, is the key concept behind economics, game theory, and warfare in general.

Even if it is able to fire 20% doesn't make the Memento Mori a viable and supperior better alternative to, well, it's cheaper alternatives. If you want major damage, you can get major damage quicker, in more places, and cheaper. If you want a precision tool, a 'knife,' then you can invest in more, better, knifes than an over-sized cludgeon. And if you want the ability to do both, you can invest in both, and still come out with less waste than with the Memento Mori white elephant.

And you still haven't described, listed, or pointed to a single strategic advantage that the Memento Mori has that other alternatives can't use. Meteor drops, precision Rods from Gods (micro-meteors with major and variable effect), smaller and cheaper satellite systems, or just about anything else. All you keep doing is saing "it has more advantages and it's a knife," which is like calling an American aircraft carrier a destroyer escort and then insisting it should be used for harbor defense.

1 you have no IDEA on what nukes do or what effects it has so i hope they dont let you in on WMD section of your army if it even has one.

2 you dont seem to know anything about comparison regarding the knife/grenade thing and the strategical point in that doctrine or advantages for that matter

3 Money not being a strategical point aside. you dont seem to take in account that in a world where countless of time money effort has gone in space exploration building a giant freaking solar system saying building memento mori would be the same as in our world obviously building memento moris way easier for them as they have like way more astronauts we have.

@Galerian i wouldnt think you would understand something figuratively

No one said Seel started a war nor would it make sense for seel to start one. A-LAWS who wants to control the world doesnt mind to start wars opressions and god knows what. And Yes A-LAWS federation did that. Does a war for you mean that someone else then the EF needs to start one or else it isnt a war that would practically also makes sense on why you think that if the EF starts a war it isnt a war.

Also Cheap is a relative term for me a nuke is expensive as hell like a space station would. They are both out of my reach lol. Anyway Money doesnt seem to be the issue in G00 just who can freaking built something which can be of strategical use. And yes poor countries could built a space station too if they enslaved their people to make it who gives a damn about that anyway.

Regardless nukes are still expensive in nature when you take quality into account. Its not like all countries on the globe can make one and those countries put more of their nation income in nukes then they would in welfare so your point or that Dean_the_Young of is dumb. If all your countries money goes into nuclear programs like Korea but your country is starving whats point. Same as building a space station for that matter.

And yes every country on earth could make ones but still it costs alot. Whether its 1 million to make or a billion its still inst cheap when its not being used to just rot in some damn silo.

[Dean_the_Young]

Seriously, learn to write. I'd understand if you had a disability, but you've mentioned nothing like it and at times you do seem better than that at other times. But I can't even understand what you're trying to say anymore because your sentences.

I think I'm seeing some bad attempts at an argument (more or less you just calling anything you disagree with dumb and not trying to explain anything, like how a strategic weapon functions as a knife (or, earlier, a sniper rifle); you seem to have entered the 'if I say it enough times it's true' stage rather than try and explain your own metaphor), I'm pretty sure I see some baseless assumptions (making a single mistake on the casualities of a nuke doesn't mean that I don't know anything on the matter, and is certainly not a position you want to take after some of your own, ahem, mistakes), and I'm positive you have absolutely no understanding of such relevant fields as economy of force, or what strategic advantages even are.

But, as I said, I really can't understand what you're trying to say. Would you mind starting to use commas, apostrophes, proper capitalization, and comprehensible sentence structure? And maybe pick up some better metaphors and analogies? When you do, please let me know. Until then, I'm off to raise the reading level of the forum with a handy thing called the ignore list.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Galerian

I went 'hahaha' when I read this.

You really think a country like Seel would start a conventional war against the Earth Federation? No, they would most likely finance and supply terrorists (a time tested method as you said). Hence, A-LAWS would still be fighting the same kind war even though a legitimate government is involved. So, they still won't need such a weapon.

You fail to look at the situation and make baseless assumptions. EF forces were watching Seel because they knew they were going to make a move. Why you ask? Because, the EF was making moves to reorganize the Middle East. Seel had to make a move and couldn't depend on terrorism. Unless they oppose them openly they will just be brought to heel by the EF sooner or later. Terrorism wouldn't do them any good once the EF decided to take them over.

As for the EF not knowing what the Memento Mori would do after it completion. Pfff. You can use backdoor connections and influence to smuggle some arms, not to construct a giant orbital battlestation that dwarfs cariers. I find it hard to believe.

Some might know at the top might have an idea of what it is but it seems to supported heavily by Wang and the innovators. The EF forces on the ground certainly didn't know nor did their commanders seem to either.

Oh and as for nuclear weapons not being cheap. Unfortunately they are. Why do think relative poor countries like Iran and North-Korea these days have/had/can-have their own nuclear programs. They could turn out nuclear weapons by the dozens if we let them.

Iran and North Korea aren't poor countries. Maybe compared to America but certainly they are both fairly developed countries. And if it was cheap or easy these countries would have been able to do it even with us not letting them. All we have ever done to these countries is embargo's and holding back aid and such. If it was really cheap they'd have no problem making them even with these sanctions.

[Dean_the_Young]

North Korea is pretty much a dirt-poor country by any standard, unless you forget the standard of "do the people eat grass because they can't get food." Iran isn't poor, but at the same time it's not as well off as it's fellow oil-producing neighbors and it certainly isn't well off.

The difficulty with making nuclear weapons comes from the technical sophistication, the materials, and precision equipment necessary. It's expensive, but you don't need Manhattan-Project funds either. It also helps if you don't feel obligated to spend on such things as, like, food for your populace (see: North Korea).

[Galerian]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

You fail to look at the situation and make baseless assumptions. EF forces were watching Seel because they knew they were going to make a move. Why you ask? Because, the EF was making moves to reorganize the Middle East. Seel had to make a move and couldn't depend on terrorism. Unless they oppose them openly they will just be brought to heel by the EF sooner or later. Terrorism wouldn't do them any good once the EF decided to take them over.

And you think starting a conventional war they can not win is the better alternative? Thereby inviting further suffering on their own people, risking the complete destruction of their cities and infrastructure, and blowing any chances they might have during possible future negotiations.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Some might know at the top might have an idea of what it is but it seems to supported heavily by Wang and the innovators. The EF forces on the ground certainly didn't know nor did their commanders seem to either.

Well duh! I hardly think Ribbons needs his connections in order to fool the common EF infantryman or their squadleaders. Even a captain/colonel like Sergei wouldn't need to know. It is the top that matters. Point is: you didn't made that clear in your previous statement. It appear as if you thought that nobody, including top, in the EF knew. The fault lies with you.

As for cost.

As was pointed out earlier: it is relative costs we are talking about. A nuclear bomb is cheap compared to the cost of the amount of other weapons one would need to achive the same scale of destruction or threat. Now add an orbital battle station to the equation. I think we can all agree that a nuke requires less technology, infrastructure, building materials, money and so on, than an orbital space fortress equipped with death ray, while adding little extra capabilities and power if at all. This last part of the statement is of course based on my opinion regarding the (lack of) use of a orbital death ray.

[LoweGear]

Nuclear technology in general are banned with a significant negative stigma attached to them in the 00verse though, and has been for decades now in their timeline, so them not using nukes is pretty understandable.

Besides, the Memento Mori is reusable, a nuclear missile is not.

[Galerian]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Nuclear technology in general are banned with a significant negative stigma attached to them in the 00verse though, and has been for decades now in their timeline, so them not using nukes is pretty understandable.

Besides, the Memento Mori is reusable, a nuclear missile is not.

How many times do you think they can use the Memento Mori before it too has a significant negative stigma attached to it

Plus, I think that as soon as you are prepared to whipe an entire city from the face of the world: you are really beyond the point caring about what other people think of you.

Additionally: if you can build one nuke, nothing is stopping you from making more. The initial cost required for the production process have already been paid for. The only drawback is the time required to make the nuclear material you'll need. But if you plan to build multiple nuclear weapons beforehand (so before using your first), a nice collection of nukes is more versatile than a cannon requiring recharging.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Nuclear technology in general are banned with a significant negative stigma attached to them in the 00verse though, and has been for decades now in their timeline, so them not using nukes is pretty understandable.

Besides, the Memento Mori is reusable, a nuclear missile is not.

Which only comes into play if the multiple uses of the Memento Mori is cheaper than than the equivalent number of nukes/asteroids. As a terror weapon, the Memento Mori isn't meant to need to fire more than once or twice: the point of such a terror weapon is to not need to use it.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Which only comes into play if the multiple uses of the Memento Mori is cheaper than than the equivalent number of nukes/asteroids. As a terror weapon, the Memento Mori isn't meant to need to fire more than once or twice: the point of such a terror weapon is to not need to use it.

Maybe, but then again Nuclear weapons on standby still take up significant operational upkeep costs to maintain on full combat and alert readiness - They don't maintain themselves afterall. And this is for nuclear weapons across a variety of platforms ranging from Land-based silo weapons to SLBM's.

Whether you go for a single high-power beam cannon or a couple of hundred nukes, both are meant to function pretty much the same way as you say: as terror weapons (or in the real world, deterrents) that ideally WOULD never be fired, and gain more from the psychological impact of their mere presence. Both weapons will still require upkeep though, so I'm not really sure if multiple nukes would be cheaper than a single space platform in this regard.

Also, if the info about the Memento Mori being an Alejandro Corner legacy is true, then the R&D and construction costs can be said to have been subsidized off the A-Laws/ESF's budget, and hence it's actually CHEAPER to maintain, since you don't have to worry about recouping the costs for its development and construction.

Meh, this is getting way strange...

[Galerian]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Meh, this is getting way strange...

Hear hear