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Old 2009-01-24, 19:22   Link #1121
Marina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
Should have seen this coming, though I had expected an ISML club to be founded on MAL first. Now that I think about it, there is an anti-Touhou-in-ISML club yet there aren't even any proper ISML dedicated club in MAL.
I noticed the lack of a MAL club as well, though I decided not to start one there since it seems like it'd take more time and dedication to keep the club up-to-date. I noticed MALMAT, but I'm not really into joining clubs that are negatively-inspired (I don't have anything against it, of course).
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Old 2009-01-24, 19:25   Link #1122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina View Post
Started a group: http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=230 since it seems that it had yet to be done
Ty for the invite; glad to be a part of it. ^__^;
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Old 2009-01-24, 19:30   Link #1123
Marina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noe View Post
Ty for the invite; glad to be a part of it. ^__^;
np ^^
I went ahead and started a club over at MAL, though it will take me a while to get everything set up. Feel free to jump over there and join it Let me know if you'd like to be an officer as well~
Link to MAL Club
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Last edited by Marina; 2009-01-24 at 20:22.
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Old 2009-01-24, 20:07   Link #1124
OceanBlue
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Thanks for the invite. I'm glad to be part of this group as well.

Although, I don't think it'll be that active, considering that everything that could be posted there is usually posted here anyways.
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Old 2009-01-24, 20:35   Link #1125
Mushi
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Melange, I see you've added a link to your sig that points to your "Declaration of Moe Evaluation."

I'd like to expand on my response to that... since my previous "get out of the kitchen" one was so blunt (and probably came across as arrogant). But hey, there is a lot of "breathing down the necks of others" around here. It is "serious buisness," after all. We either jump into it or steer clear of it.

I did say your comments were well noted and I meant that. I do understand where you're coming from and you certainly have the right to feel that way.

There's no simple answer to the conundrum of what degree of influence "anime only vs. other material" will have. I guess my concern (or perhaps "hang-up") is that it makes for something of an uneven playing field where rules get made up on the fly by the "anything goes" side.

With anime, created by legally established production studios, carrying the benefit of copyright permissions, there's little doubt about who and what the characters are. It can be safely assumed that everyone is getting the same thing to evaluate and be influenced by. Plus, anime fansubs are usually more readily accessible than most other forms of material, which may require an understanding of Japanese to fully appreciate.

In a contest where characters must qualify based on being represented by an anime, it only seems natural that the majority of a character's qualities should be able to be evaluated from that format alone. This means voice, action, expressions, etc. Even the quality of the production can be an influencing factor.

With doujinshi, you don't have that defacto element. Fan art has variations in physical appearance (sometimes drastic), and character development is open to whatever the writers of fan fiction care to instill. So it's "set your own limit" as to who or what the character is supposed to be. Adjust your choices as your moe desires see fit.

So, you have moe being evaluated from very different sets of characteristics and exposure -- one more consistently identifiable (official anime) than the other (doujinshi).

Like I said, there's no simple answer. I guess ISML is bound to be stuck with varying degrees of these two perspectives and we all just get to live with it/tolerate it/accept it/argue about it/slit our wrists over it/whatever seems fit at any given time.

Oh, and I was reading back through a few pages and something struck me that, as one still balancing precariously on this slippery fence, I'd like to point out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psieye View Post
The fact there is a hate club out there only makes me happier as people are acknowledging Touhou has a large weight.
MALMAT is not a "hate club." The creator has stated that he's a Touhou fan. It's about what they consider appropriate for the tournament. They simply oppose the inclusion of Touhou in ISML based on the doujin anime. Granted, that doesn't stop people from using it to post "hateful" comments, but do keep in mind, it wasn't started for the purpose of "hating" Touhou.
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Old 2009-01-24, 21:08   Link #1126
KholdStare
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Oh boy. This is going to be a long year, literally. I wonder who's going to keep up with us through November?
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Old 2009-01-24, 21:39   Link #1127
Mushi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Oh boy. This is going to be a long year, literally. I wonder who's going to keep up with us through November?
Why's that? Because of the nature of the discussion at hand?
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Old 2009-01-24, 21:42   Link #1128
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No I was thinking quite literally. Will anyone commit themselves to a moe tournament for 11 months?
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Old 2009-01-24, 21:50   Link #1129
Mushi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
No I was thinking quite literally. Will anyone commit themselves to a moe tournament for 11 months?
Mmmm.... can't even answer that for myself. I have the good intention to, but I know myself well enough not to make any promises.

Probably best not to think of that way and just go with the flow, one match at a time.
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Old 2009-01-24, 21:55   Link #1130
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Anyway Marina i dont think i will active in social group...
but i will stick with your MAL club...
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Old 2009-01-24, 22:11   Link #1131
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What uis said.
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Old 2009-01-24, 22:19   Link #1132
Marina
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My feelings won't be hurt if you don't feel like joining Just another place for isml ppl to chat and discuss and legitimately spam away
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Old 2009-01-24, 22:26   Link #1133
KholdStare
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By the way, since we can't campaign here, should we create a new discussion where voters can campaign using images?
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Old 2009-01-24, 22:30   Link #1134
uis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina View Post
My feelings won't be hurt if you don't feel like joining Just another place for isml ppl to chat and discuss and legitimately spam away
I like to join... it just i dont like social group new design/format...
I like the old one...
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Old 2009-01-24, 23:02   Link #1135
Mushi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
By the way, since we can't campaign here, should we create a new discussion where voters can campaign using images?
Is that allowed?

Marina, I joined both groups. I'll do my best to drop in every now and then.
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Old 2009-01-24, 23:19   Link #1136
chaosprophet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushi View Post
Melange, I see you've added a link to your sig that points to your "Declaration of Moe Evaluation."

I'd like to expand on my response to that... since my previous "get out of the kitchen" one was so blunt (and probably came across as arrogant). But hey, there is a lot of "breathing down the necks of others" around here. It is "serious buisness," after all. We either jump into it or steer clear of it.

I did say your comments were well noted and I meant that. I do understand where you're coming from and you certainly have the right to feel that way.

There's no simple answer to the conundrum of what degree of influence "anime only vs. other material" will have. I guess my concern (or perhaps "hang-up") is that it makes for something of an uneven playing field where rules get made up on the fly by the "anything goes" side.

With anime, created by legally established production studios, carrying the benefit of copyright permissions, there's little doubt about who and what the characters are. It can be safely assumed that everyone is getting the same thing to evaluate and be influenced by. Plus, anime fansubs are usually more readily accessible than most other forms of material, which may require an understanding of Japanese to fully appreciate.

In a contest where characters must qualify based on being represented by an anime, it only seems natural that the majority of a character's qualities should be able to be evaluated from that format alone. This means voice, action, expressions, etc. Even the quality of the production can be an influencing factor.

With doujinshi, you don't have that defacto element. Fan art has variations in physical appearance (sometimes drastic), and character development is open to whatever the writers of fan fiction care to instill. So it's "set your own limit" as to who or what the character is supposed to be. Adjust your choices as your moe desires see fit.

So, you have moe being evaluated from very different sets of characteristics and exposure -- one more consistently identifiable (official anime) than the other (doujinshi).

Like I said, there's no simple answer. I guess ISML is bound to be stuck with varying degrees of these two perspectives and we all just get to live with it/tolerate it/accept it/argue about it/slit our wrists over it/whatever seems fit at any given time.

The problem in what is acceptable to base your apreciation for the characters exists even if you consider only anime. Asuna from Negima is a good example. She is very different in the two animes. Would voters have to base their vote in only the characteristics of one of them? Would we need to go as far as making them two different contestans? But if you can accept that why you can't accept the ones who find a character moe from other scources?

Anyway I don't think you have to worry to much about unfairness created by voters who base their votes on characters using fan works. I will quote a part of Melange post who I believe is a logical answer of why you don't need to worry:

Quote:
Originally Posted by melange View Post
All fan made stuff have to run this gauntlet; stray too much from the general direction of the character and the fan work won't be recognized by majority of the fans and it won't add much to the existence of the character.
But I suppose that may happen more in the Touhou than others series... the scource are games that don't give many characteristics to many of their characters (that is what I heard from people who played the game as I never played myself, if it's wrong fell free to correct me). That way the "general direction" of the character is more loose so fan works could make many changes without straying too much from it.


Thanks for the invitation Marina. I too may not be much active but I will try.
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Old 2009-01-24, 23:20   Link #1137
melange
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushi View Post
Melange, I see you've added a link to your sig that points to your "Declaration of Moe Evaluation."

I'd like to expand on my response to that... since my previous "get out of the kitchen" one was so blunt (and probably came across as arrogant). But hey, there is a lot of "breathing down the necks of others" around here. It is "serious buisness," after all. We either jump into it or steer clear of it.
My immediate reaction to the 'kitchen' comment was excised in my first reply to it for I felt it might ignite something I'm sure neither of us really wanted.

Yes, there is no simple answer. No part of a moe contest seems to be amiable to simple answers. People cannot agree on what 'moe' really is, hence rather than have constant fights over the definition of moe, in order to cope with this reality and get on with it, we have the "your moe may vary" saying.

If "your moe may vary", I feel that by the same token, due to the difference of availability and access to materials, "the means by which you judge your moe may vary" or "your (full list of) moe materials may vary". Insist on too narrow a field on which to judge moe, and we discriminate against those who can read Japanese and/or who have devoted their time to exploring a broader range of the materials they love. Similarly, insist on too board a field on which to judge moe, and we discriminate against those who cannot understand Japanese and/or have devoted their time to more important pursuits. There will always be people who come into contact with more materials than the anime and there will always be people who will judge their moe by more materials than the anime. Rather than have fights over anime-only or not and leave people with all types of negative emotions, indignation on part of those who prescribe an anime only approach and frustration on part of those who look beyond anime, think about the issue differently: you can control what you do, but you can't necessarily control what other people do, so save yourself and others the time and trouble. Though of course, as can be said also of the "your moe may vary" response, "sidestepping it" may be the more accurate term for this. Once again, "your mileage may vary".

As to it being natural that the majority of a characters qualities be evaluated from the anime format alone, I don't think it is that simple. This may be true of anime that were in the anime format alone. What happens to adaptations from manga, games, light novels, doujin games etc where the qualities of the characters may have been lost in the translation? What about the characters whose provenance and perhaps whose fullest pictures are in a format other than anime? (Of course there are times when the adaptation has the better treatment of the character) My view is, if a moe contest is about showing love for characters, then the characters who did not receive the best animation treatment, due to time or financial constraints on part of the studio, should not be 'handicapped' by an insistence that all voters only look at their anime treatment. It is fine that some voters only look at the anime. It is also fine that other voters look beyond the anime if they want to know more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushi View Post
MALMAT is not a "hate club." The creator has stated that he's a Touhou fan. It's about what they consider appropriate for the tournament. They simply oppose the inclusion of Touhou in ISML based on the doujin anime. Granted, that doesn't stop people from using it to post "hateful" comments, but do keep in mind, it wasn't started for the purpose of "hating" Touhou.
All sentiments for which there is ample reason. Yet some of the comments made by said creator himself have been rather in bad taste. At least it proves that the "Touhou fanbase" is not some fearful borg-like conglomerate and there are many differing opinions within it on the issue.



Now, if I may be excused, I'd like to get back to the 'mostly-lurking-and-posting-pretty-graphical-representations-of-ISML-data-when-I-make-them' role that I am more comfortable in. Making tl;dr posts is not my forte. I spend way too much time considering/weighing the words.. >_<
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Old 2009-01-24, 23:20   Link #1138
FlareKnight
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Well thankful for the invite. Hopefully I'll be able to stick through whole thing. Still should be fun to post, vote, and occasionally win .
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Old 2009-01-25, 00:19   Link #1139
Mushi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosprophet View Post
Asuna from Negima is a good example. She is very different in the two animes.
That's a good point. Although, I think Negima!(?) is one of the few cases where an anime is done as an alternate retelling. But yes, there are differences there in what is essentially the same character and the impressions made by either of them is up for grabs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melange
My immediate reaction to the 'kitchen' comment was excised in my first reply to it for I felt it might ignite something I'm sure neither of us really wanted.
Then I applaud you for your restraint and apologize for my rudeness.

Re: everything else you wrote...

...is actually stuff I've thought a lot about and considered in some measure. Last year, I *did* make some votes based on non-anime material because I was interested in exploring that material to see what it was all about. I even remember asking Psieye for some Touhou info fairly early on (I still have Touhou images I downloaded from that time). I've since read more manga and doujin than I had before and even looked into some of the ero-games that were source material for anime.

I'm not necessarily trying to "make a case" for anime-only, I'm just laying out, what I think, is some of the reasoning behind why it's an issue. And, why the Touhou doujin anime is seen as barely-passable, at best.

Quote:
Making tl;dr posts is not my forte. I spend way too much time considering/weighing the words.. >_<
Well, I have enjoyed your well-weighed words and appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns. It is not without affect, I assure you.
.
.
.
.

So... is it Monday yet? Now that the Touhou factor is out of the way I'm actually feeling kinda' anxious about the next match.
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Old 2009-01-25, 00:58   Link #1140
Ithekro
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It is Monday on some planet....
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