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Old 2009-12-27, 01:43   Link #441
BBOvenGuy
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Well, it's all over but the subbing...

Spoiler for Episode 50 w/o subs:


Two questions - First, it was good to see Kirik at the end, but what was he doing? And second, what was that promo for at the end of the episode? Some kind of recap episode coming up in a couple of weeks?

One more thing - I've loved the "native mythological art work" that we've seen throughout the series, and I thought it was especially great during the final credits, where we see that Erin's deeds have been woven into the kingdom's legends.

And lastly, a question about the apple symbolism that has appeared throughout the series. They said that Erin's name means "wild apple." However, in Western mythology, the apple represents "forbidden knowledge" - as in the Garden of Eden and all that. Would a Japanese audience see it that way, too?
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Old 2009-12-27, 05:30   Link #442
Darkonus
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For someone that has read the books, does Erin have a child in the last two books? Or did they do a time skip and show her with her son to end the series?

Also could someone translate this please or give a summary of whats its saying, thx.
http://www.nhk.or.jp/anime-blog/0040/32584.html#more

Last edited by Darkonus; 2009-12-27 at 07:42.
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Old 2009-12-27, 15:07   Link #443
Miles Teg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkonus View Post
For someone that has read the books, does Erin have a child in the last two books? Or did they do a time skip and show her with her son to end the series?
Spoiler for End of volume 2:
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Old 2009-12-28, 18:44   Link #444
Fimbulvetr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
(...)it was good to see Kirik at the end, but what was he doing?
He's a travelling doctor/pharmacist now if I understood that correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
And lastly, a question about the apple symbolism that has appeared throughout the series. They said that Erin's name means "wild apple." However, in Western mythology, the apple represents "forbidden knowledge" - as in the Garden of Eden and all that. Would a Japanese audience see it that way, too?
People seem to forget that this tree in the Garden of Eden was not an apple tree.
I'd expect apples to be associated with "love, beauty, luck, health, comfort, pleasure, wisdom, temptation, sensuality, sexuality, virility and fertility", in japan or anywhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
Spoiler for Episode 50 w/o subs:
Spoiler for 50:


It was nice sometimes, but in the end a really forgettable show for me: slow, with flashbacks en masse and censorship through abstraction whenever there was a tiny bit of gore -_-.
Then again, I knew it wouldn't be my cup of tea after the first two episodes so I really can't complain

Last edited by Fimbulvetr; 2009-12-28 at 18:57.
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Old 2009-12-28, 19:44   Link #445
bbee
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Wow, it's over ;_; Atleast for the time being.. But considering that we're still waiting for the contiunuation of Moribito, I'm not holding my breath.

The ending was quite epic and I'm glad that we also have an answer to the question of what Damiya would have done if Erin hadn't shown up; his plan was to play out Shunan against his brother all along. It adds much needed solidity to the plot and thanks to that Erin-chan is not a deus ex machina
Still, there are a number of strange plot choices and a few times where characters act in unforseen ways that don't agree with their persona; I've posted about them before. The flaws are relatively minor and the show would easily have been 9/10 for me, almost on par with Moribito, if not for the two comic relief characters. As is I have to agree with Gooral and give 8/10 objectively.
That's not to say that the show isn't absoltely brilliant. I'll repeat what I said before: despite the flaws, the show has an amazing emotional flow and a huge number of brilliant dramatically cathartic and melancholic episodes, and is definately the best show of the year, perhaps even the best show since Moribito.

So what's next? Nobody is scanlating the manga adaptation. I read German and French so I supose I could grab the first novel, but somehow I'm weary of translations of Uehashi-sensei's work. I mean, Moribito is one of the most mature anime I've ever seen, but the books win all these children's literature awards. Even the English translation won one. Can't help but feel that something must have been lost in translation ("dumbed down"). Or perhaps the anime was more mature than the novels?
Then again, there is this weird disconnect in this show between all the plotting, intrigue and the two retarded comic relief characters. I can't imagine what target ages are young enough not to be annoyed by them but old enough to be capable of grasping all the intrigue and emotional content. I'm aware that they were added for the anime and aren't in any of the books, but they aren't making it any easier to pin down the exact nature of Uehashi's works..

Does anyone have a link to a (preferably exhaustive) summary of what happens in books 3 and 4? They came out in August, someone must have written a spoiler-laden review :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
And second, what was that promo for at the end of the episode? Some kind of recap episode coming up in a couple of weeks?
Huh, the release I have didn't have a promo.. What was in it?
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Originally Posted by Fimbulvetr View Post
It was nice sometimes, but in the end a really forgettable show for me: slow, with flashbacks en masse and censorship through abstraction whenever there was a tiny bit of gore -_-.
I didn't see (m)any flashbacks? Unless you're referring to the very brief ones that pop up now and then when Erin remembers something like the death of her mother, or when there is narration..
And "censorship"? Never heard of stylized violence? There are a few scenes with blood, f.ex. see the scene when Shunan brings the two wounded soldiers to the palace after the queen's death.
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Old 2009-12-28, 21:13   Link #446
BBOvenGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fimbulvetr View Post
People seem to forget that this tree in the Garden of Eden was not an apple tree.
I'd expect apples to be associated with "love, beauty, luck, health, comfort, pleasure, wisdom, temptation, sensuality, sexuality, virility and fertility", in japan or anywhere else.
"People," yes. Not me, though. I knew that. But I was speaking in terms of popular Western mythology, not what the Bible says. In popular Western mythology, it's an apple - just as in popular Western mythology, there were three wise men who showed up twelve days after Jesus was born. The Bible doesn't specify how many wise men there were, or how long it took them to get there. But I digress.

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Originally Posted by Fimbulvetr View Post
It was nice sometimes, but in the end a really forgettable show for me: slow, with flashbacks en masse and censorship through abstraction whenever there was a tiny bit of gore -_-.
It's a family show. That sort of stuff goes with the territory.

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Originally Posted by bbee View Post
Huh, the release I have didn't have a promo.. What was in it?
Scenes of little Erin with her mother, up to and including the point where her mother was taken away. That's what made me think it was some kind of recap. If I've correctly learned to recognize the way you write dates in Japanese, it's supposed to run on January 9.
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Old 2009-12-28, 21:49   Link #447
bbee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
Scenes of little Erin with her mother, up to and including the point where her mother was taken away. That's what made me think it was some kind of recap. If I've correctly learned to recognize the way you write dates in Japanese, it's supposed to run on January 9.
Hmm well it may have been a DVD announcement, if I'm not mistaken the 6th DVD comes out on January 6th, with eps 22-25.. I'd love for it to be something else though

About the apple thing, I vaguely remember reading a pretty large discussion somewhere about the over-representation of apples in anime and in Japanese culture.. I can't find it now though, maybe in the Spice&Wolf forum
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Old 2009-12-29, 12:31   Link #448
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Not a bad ending. I liked how Erin's actions ended up being shown as a story. I think that extra scene at the end they put in was done deliberately to try and get the viewers to buy the last two novels ^^;

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Originally Posted by Darkonus View Post
...could someone translate this please or give a summary of whats its saying, thx.
http://www.nhk.or.jp/anime-blog/0040/32584.html#more
Uehashi talks a fair bit about her philosophy when she was writing The Beast Player.

Quick translation...

Quote:
Watching this show, viewers may believe Erin brought peace back to the world alone but in my opinion, no single person's actions can bring peace to the world.

Such a society can only be achieved by people going through a cycle of trial and error so that they may learn from denial and be corrected in their ways.

Life is like a bubble, short and thus giving each person little strength to achieve anything alone yet, in the society we live in today such humans are born into the world one after the other, "living and achieving."

Erin managed to accomplish many "sounds" by experiencing hesitation, being troubled and thinking as she walked her path, meeting various things (including beasts) and people.

At the end of her path, her near-death experience at Tahai Aze was an invaluable lesson to her but, if she had not been willing to try her best at everything throughout her life, it never would have happened and her "sound" wouldn't have been tuned.

Life maybe short for us but as we walk our paths, each of us produce our own "sounds", resonating together with the sounds of others and sometimes it may not be in harmony but more complex, sounds are produced. Perhaps we could say it's one grand tuning session as we play.

This 50 episode series is an animated version of my books "Toudah Arc" and "King Beasts Arc" but, you'll find two more books that continue the story of Erin's life were released this summer "Quest Arc" and "Final Arc". It tells the story of Erin's life after she is married and becomes a mother.

I handed over the preview copies of those stories to the director Mr. Hamana, Mr. Fuseki and Mr. Fujisaki. After reading a certain chapter, Mr. Fujisaki said, "I'm going to kill you, Uehashi!" (Laughs) They did a splendid job of bringing one of the scenes to life at the end of the show.
So in other words... Live life to the fullest, do your best and don't be afraid of failure. The world is constantly changing as we "tune" ourselves through our lives meeting people, experiencing things and influence each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
...a question about the apple symbolism that has appeared throughout the series. They said that Erin's name means "wild apple." However, in Western mythology, the apple represents "forbidden knowledge" - as in the Garden of Eden and all that. Would a Japanese audience see it that way, too?
Hmmm, I should try asking my penpals if apples have any particular symbolism in Japan

I think the apple can be referred to as the "forbidden fruit" as in losing your innocence and becoming aware of "good and evil" because towards the end of the blog entry Uehashi mentions...

Quote:
エリンが、母ソヨンから渡されたもの。
エリンの息子ジェシが、母エリンから渡されるもの。

エリン(山リンゴ)は、いま、アニメという姿を借りて、あなたの手にも、手渡されました。
どうか、このリンゴを思う存分味わって、得た種は、自分なりのリンゴに育てて、誰かに手渡してあげてくださ い。
爽やかなリンゴの香りが、この世に満ちていきますように。

It was handed over to Erin by Soyon.
It was also handed over to Erin's son "Jehshi" by Erin herself.

"Erin (Wild Apple") has now been passed onto you in the form of animation. Please savour it to your heart's content and then from its seeds, grow your very own apples and pass them onto someone else. Let us fill this world with the invigorating scent of apples.
It's like Erin was "given" the forbidden fruit as she is brought up by her mother Soyon then in turn, Erin does the same with Jehshi.
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Old 2009-12-29, 15:10   Link #449
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by bbee View Post
I'm weary of translations of Uehashi-sensei's work. I mean, Moribito is one of the most mature anime I've ever seen, but the books win all these children's literature awards. Even the English translation won one. Can't help but feel that something must have been lost in translation ("dumbed down").
Like Erin, Moribito was published in Japan under a children's novel label, so it's only natural it won children's literature awards. These novels are, literally, children's literature.
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Old 2009-12-29, 17:31   Link #450
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Well I finished the series and I'm fairly happy with it overall, I'll give it an 8 out of 10 like others have been doing. Some of the pacing was not so good (for the love of cake, please stop reusing a certain scene!) but I loved how the series focused on Erin and her journey to discover the best way to live with the beasts, not just a story of political intrigue.

Quote:
I handed over the preview copies of those stories to the director Mr. Hamana, Mr. Fuseki and Mr. Fujisaki. After reading a certain chapter, Mr. Fujisaki said, "I'm going to kill you, Uehashi!" (Laughs) They did a splendid job of bringing one of the scenes to life at the end of the show.
Well, I think that one of those scenes was the scene with Erin and her son. If I remember correctly
Spoiler for novel spoilers:
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Old 2009-12-29, 19:53   Link #451
lightbringer
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Unlike psgels, I did not find the ending to be a major letdown, although towards the end it was very much rushed and the "what happened afterwards" was cut down to two or three small scenes. It would have been better if the stuff before the eyecatch happened in ep 49 and if 50 was expanded to elaborate on what happens in the second half and afterwards instead. It's kind of weird that they messed up on the timing towards the end when they had a whole 50 episodes to play with, even if we take into account all the flashbacks (of which there are quite a few).

Despite being a children's show, this was a very enjoyable journey and not inferior to the many other great shows this year (I dare say 2009 was a good year for anime). It started off rather average but became interesting once Erin grew up a bit (ie the whole Kazalm arc). The political side was weak but since it's a children's story it's understandable.
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Old 2009-12-29, 20:01   Link #452
wandering-dreamer
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Originally Posted by lightbringer View Post
. It's kind of weird that they messed up on the timing towards the end when they had a whole 50 episodes to play with, even if we take into account all the flashbacks (of which there are quite a few).
That was my main dislike in the series, they had so much time, quiet a bit to work with (even if the last two novels weren't published until it was over half way made), yet they flash backed like no tomorrow and then the last bit of 50 did feel a bit rushed. Over on heysayanime a few people there are complaining that we didn't get a Ialu and Erin ending shot and I wish we had one of those as well. Really felt like they were toying with the fans there.
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Old 2009-12-29, 20:21   Link #453
Xcomp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
Scenes of little Erin with her mother, up to and including the point where her mother was taken away. That's what made me think it was some kind of recap. If I've correctly learned to recognize the way you write dates in Japanese, it's supposed to run on January 9.
Yes, it's going to be a re-cap made up off ten episodes highlighting the main events during Erin's life until the end of the show - How it affected and changed her growing up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Like Erin, Moribito was published in Japan under a children's novel label, so it's only natural it won children's literature awards. These novels are, literally, children's literature.
Yes, children's literature but with enough layers to appeal to adults too. Not really the first time stories published for the children's market ends up appealing to adults too.

I remember the Moomin series of books ended up quite popular with adults too because of Moomin Papa's journal.

And if you can count Harry Potter... They later re-published the books with "adult covers".

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer View Post
Well, I think that one of those scenes was the scene with Erin and her son. If I remember correctly
Spoiler for novel spoilers:
Indeed...
Spoiler for Novels volume three and four:
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Old 2009-12-29, 22:24   Link #454
wandering-dreamer
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Originally Posted by Xcomp View Post
Spoiler for Novels volume three and four:
I remember that being said before and am glad to see that I wasn't going crazy there. XD Once you get them could you post/link to a blog post so the rest of us can have some closure on the series as well?
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Old 2009-12-29, 22:37   Link #455
BBOvenGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcomp View Post
Spoiler for Novels volume three and four:
I hope you do find the books and see what really happens, because I have issues with the supposed spoilers that have come out.

However, in order to avoid the wrath of the moderators, I'll speak in terms of this story, and how I think everyone's fear of repeating "the great crime" wouldn't have necessarily had to come true. Damiya wasn't very smart, so he wouldn't have thought outside the box, but I think Erin could have thought of something if she really had to.

For example, she figured out how to modify a harp so that it imitated the noise beast-lords make when they want to be friendly to other beast-lords. With a little thought, effort and experimentation, could she have figured out how to imitate the noise beast-lords make to paralyze the touda? If you'll recall, that noise even works on wild touda who still have their ear-flaps.

Or alternately, you wouldn't really even need an "army" of trained beast-lords to fight an army of touda. All you have to do is take a bunch of beast-lords to some point where you could intercept the approaching touda army out in the open and away from the civilian population. When the touda arrive, you just turn the beast-lords loose and let them have at it. Killing touda isn't something you have to teach a beast-lord to do. They do it instinctively.

So I have issues with the idea that repeating "the great crime" is inevitable. It made for good drama in this particular situation, but it doesn't have to be that way every single time.
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Old 2009-12-29, 23:10   Link #456
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I got the impression in the show however, that Beast Lords and Toudas don't live in the same natural habitat, hence why this doesn't occur too frequently in the wild. It seemed that the Beast Lords lived more in the mountains and the Touda's lived in the lowlands, so Jeh may have been the first person to discover what happens when the two mix. Plus that would explain why it's a great crime, it actually goes against how the creatures have developed and stayed separate in the wild.
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Old 2009-12-29, 23:29   Link #457
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This series dose not disappoint from beginning to end I was hooked but it was a very good ending it fitted the show very well
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Old 2009-12-30, 13:21   Link #458
Xcomp
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Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
I'll speak in terms of this story, and how I think everyone's fear of repeating "the great crime" wouldn't have necessarily had to come true. Damiya wasn't very smart, so he wouldn't have thought outside the box, but I think Erin could have thought of something if she really had to.

For example, she figured out how to modify a harp so that it imitated the noise beast-lords make when they want to be friendly to other beast-lords. With a little thought, effort and experimentation, could she have figured out how to imitate the noise beast-lords make to paralyze the touda? If you'll recall, that noise even works on wild touda who still have their ear-flaps.

Or alternately, you wouldn't really even need an "army" of trained beast-lords to fight an army of touda. All you have to do is take a bunch of beast-lords to some point where you could intercept the approaching touda army out in the open and away from the civilian population. When the touda arrive, you just turn the beast-lords loose and let them have at it. Killing touda isn't something you have to teach a beast-lord to do. They do it instinctively.

So I have issues with the idea that repeating "the great crime" is inevitable. It made for good drama in this particular situation, but it doesn't have to be that way every single time.
Jeh arrived to help the king with an army of trained King Beasts and that's what caused the Great Sin in the first place so never mind letting a group of untrained King Beasts loose in the battle field. As soon as they clash with the scent of Toudah and blood, they go berserk and become very hard to control it seems.

Also, I don't think they can build something big enough to calm down an entire army of Toudahs. Even Erin's harp only has a certain range after all. The Soundless Whistles are only loud enough for a single creature.

Then again I suppose you could try building one of those giant war horns if they're at that point in time but even if you manage to stop the beasts, it's going to be hard to prevent human intervention when they're plotting in the dark and by then, the beasts can still be used. Damiya could easily have replaced all the Soundless Whistles or whatever they come up with against the Toudahs as easily as he did removing the former Zezans. Then the Great Sin still would have occurred.

I think the Great Sin will always be inevitable as long as people are using these beasts while trying to get the upperhand over others. You could see it as the government trying to lay down tougher laws on guns, knives and other weapons in the real world.

This is why Erin went against the tribe's closed thinking and questioned if the beasts should be controlled when it is humans that are at fault while innocent creatures are being dragged away from their habitats into it all.

I think that's the bigger theme Uehashi has going - It is people that have to change for true peace amongst all living things. Whether that message gets across to her young readers and viewers is another matter though ^^;

I haven't read the last two volumes yet but it will be interesting to see if she manages to change the tribe's thinking or something happens to set things straight again... Or at least for another century before all hell breaks loose again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer View Post
I got the impression in the show however, that Beast Lords and Toudas don't live in the same natural habitat, hence why this doesn't occur too frequently in the wild. It seemed that the Beast Lords lived more in the mountains and the Touda's lived in the lowlands, so Jeh may have been the first person to discover what happens when the two mix. Plus that would explain why it's a great crime, it actually goes against how the creatures have developed and stayed separate in the wild.
That may very well be true but, I think the Great Sin was more to do with the tragedy when so many people and beasts died because of the Toudahs and King Beasts going berserk at a large scale.

So in an effort to stop it happening again, the tribe wants to prevent people from breeding them and using the creatures for war.

That's why Jeh, being the one who brought the King Beasts over the mountain into Ryoza and being exiled from her tribe, did her part to lay down the laws in looking after King Beasts while people like Soyon secretly poison the Toudahs at the villages to keep the numbers down and let them defend themselves against invaders at the same time.

It's probably the best they can do really because in the end, they can't watch over the entire kingdom. They can only do something to make one kind of the beasts appear weak so no one would even want to waste their time raising the beasts.

Erin on the other hand, continues to believe there is a way to keep the balance while allowing all beasts such as Lilan to be free. At the end of the show, we can't see if she managed to achieve it or not but at the very least, one of the other King Beasts seemed to be getting along with her son just fine without the whistle. Erin didn't have one any more either.

Last edited by Xcomp; 2009-12-30 at 13:43. Reason: Added analogy.
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Old 2009-12-30, 14:28   Link #459
BBOvenGuy
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Originally Posted by Xcomp View Post
I don't think they can build something big enough to calm down an entire army of Toudahs. Even Erin's harp only has a certain range after all. The Soundless Whistles are only loud enough for a single creature.
That's very true - and that's why I have my doubts about certain spoilers that dare not be described here. They don't sound physically feasible. Please let me know when you've read the books, so you can tell us whether those spoilers were accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcomp View Post
At the end of the show, we can't see if she managed to achieve it or not but at the very least, one of the other King Beasts seemed to be getting along with her son just fine without the whistle. Erin didn't have one any more either.
You're right, she didn't! And unless I'm mistaken her son was wearing the bracelet around his neck.

I also think the beast-lord he was hanging out with was Aru, Lilan's child.
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Old 2009-12-30, 16:07   Link #460
wandering-dreamer
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Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
You're right, she didn't! And unless I'm mistaken her son was wearing the bracelet around his neck.

I also think the beast-lord he was hanging out with was Aru, Lilan's child.
I don't recall seeing the necklace but he did call the beast lord Aru so I think it is both of the next generations.
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