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Old 2009-02-17, 02:25   Link #2081
mngafan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yvj View Post
The argument against against it is (as I understand it) that Kallen came to understand Lelouch's feelings for Zero Requiem I mean in regards to ZR but couldn't come to see Lelouch's feelings towards her.

And "Even if is a lie" doesn't connect with "Even if had lied about loving me" which is the simpler case, it seems to connect with "I have no idea what you felt for me so I would have accepted a lie"
I'm just saying it is a possibility.

"I have no idea what you felt for me". So, if I understand, she did not know if loved her or not... but she understood his feelings (which are feelings of love for her, according to kalulu fans). That's contradictory. I would rather think she understood his feelings towards ZR.

"I would have accepted a lie". That's exactly my point: 'I love you' is what she wanted to hear but she would not know if that is what lelouch really wanted to say. That in no way shows that lelouch loved her.
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Old 2009-02-17, 02:37   Link #2082
yvj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mngafan View Post
I'm just saying it is a possibility.

"I have no idea what you felt for me". So, if I understand, she did not know if loved her or not... but she understood his feelings (which are feelings of love for her, according to kalulu fans). That's contradictory. I would rather think she understood his feelings towards ZR.
So her perception would stop only at ZR and would go no further? To me it seems unlikely that she would see that far without anyone letting her in on anything (Kallen was so out of the loop) but would fall short of Lelouch's feelings

Quote:
Originally Posted by mngafan View Post
"I would have accepted a lie". That's exactly my point: 'I love you' is what she wanted to hear but she would not know if that is what lelouch really wanted to say. That in no way shows that lelouch loved her.
Later on in the poem Kallens says this

It's not like you.
You're good at manipulating people just by your words.
Really, it's not like you to be kind.
Is that why you told me to 'live on'?
I fell in love with you (2) not just because of that kindness.


Which shows that she has pretty much come to understand everything he did for her. As in his motivations in regards to her to the very last detail. without anyone telling her. It seems that its likely his feelings come hand to hand with his intentions.

Kallen's powers of deduction according to EP 25 and the poem appear to have jumped to epic levels.

Here is the entire context of the "Even if line"

Lelouch, that parting kiss,
even if it was a lie, if you had said, "I love you,"
(1)
I would even follow you to hell.
You knew that, didn't you?

Let's go wit the idea that Kallen is talking about Lelouch's love here.

What's seem more like what the bolded is saying.

"If you did lie to me and tell me I love you I would have followed you."

OR

"I would have accepted a lie".

EDIT: To clarify the tone of the above ^^ As in asking him to lie so she could accept it as truth.


She is not even talking about his feelings here. She's saying Lelouch had every chance in the world to abuse her trust. She;s saying I was going to put myself out there to be used by you and you had a chance to take it but you didn't.

Kallen: You know Lelouch you could have used me but you didn't

Is what she is saying.

Food for thought: Did he lie? No he didn't. Instead he stayed silent. What is the alternative to lying? Telling the truth or saying nothing. If having no feelings for her was the truth, saying so would have easily gotten here NOT to follow him.

But I can't stop you if you read the entire poem and this is what you got out of it.
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Last edited by yvj; 2009-02-17 at 03:12.
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Old 2009-02-17, 02:43   Link #2083
morbosfist
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To add something SonOfHeaven posted in the Kalulu group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven
Just wanted to put the last 2 lines part of Celiss's translation of Kallen's profile in the complete guidebook.

Here's the picture: http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4736/p1020481ux1.jpg

"After that, Kallen understood Lelouch's feelings, which he had entrusted to her, the moment Zero stabbed Lelouch in front of her eyes. It was but an small wish -- "I want you to live your own dreams"."
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Old 2009-02-17, 02:44   Link #2084
SonOfHeaven
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Didn't want to get involved with this but I just wanted to say a few things.

It like with C.C. The climax of her character development toward Lelouch was the promise to make her smile and she did.(Lelouch told her at turn 15, C.C told him about it at turn 21 and turn 24)

Kallen understanding Lelouch's feelings toward her was the climax of her character development toward Lelouch which was the center of her development. It would be somewhat sad for Kallen if she never find out what he's feelings were after hearing what she during turn 21(She asked what she means to Lelouch at turn 19, 21 was about how important it was for Kallen herself and turn 22). She said something like this during turn 21 "I need to get an answer from Lelouch or I wouldn't be able to move on". If she never got one then it safe to say she is stuck on Lelouch for the rest of her life since she said so herself.

Regarding the understanding Lelouch's feelings as ZR. In her profile in the complete guidebook before the little bit regarding understanding Lelouch's feelings. It stated that she understood what Lelouch and Suzaku was trying to do with ZR.

Just my take on it.
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Old 2009-02-17, 03:27   Link #2085
mngafan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Kallen: You know Lelouch you could have used me but you didn't
I totally agree with you on this one. It is crystal clear that he cared for her and wanted her safety. Still, I don't see how this shows that lelouch loved kallen.

"After that, Kallen understood Lelouch's feelings, which he had entrusted to her, the moment Zero stabbed Lelouch in front of her eyes. It was but an small wish -- "I want you to live your own dreams".
So the feelings would be linked with the wish for kallen to live her dreams? That makes sense.Therefore, lelouch saying "live on" would be logical. He did not want to put her in danger.
Lelouch's silence is, I think, due to the same reason. Not forcibly because he loved her like a lover would, but simply because he did care for her,did not want to involve her in ZR...He wanted her to "live her own dreams"


Thanks for posting these. They cleared some matters up.
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Old 2009-02-17, 03:37   Link #2086
yvj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mngafan View Post
I totally agree with you on this one. It is crystal clear that he cared for her and wanted her safety. Still, I don't see how this shows that lelouch loved kallen.
Because its late and I don't feel like wall texting right now. I'll give a simplified overview of the alulu argument. I'm sure other kalulu will be more than happy to reiterate their points in cleared details

Kiss was exchanged by two parties>>>>Kallen is said to understand Lelouch's feelings >>>>>. Kallen believes Lelouch to have loved her. Her poem has the stong tone of someone who is not wondering if a character loved her but knows the character loved her. As in she is speaking to deceased lover.

And we don't think Kallen was delusional
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Old 2009-02-17, 03:53   Link #2087
morbosfist
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To add one more thing to that, why would Lelouch's only dying memory of Kallen be their kiss (and likewise be the single longest memory if one doesn't count the three childhood images as a single scene) if he only cared for her as a friend?
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Old 2009-02-17, 04:45   Link #2088
dec4rhapsody
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Nope, it was not the same thing.
Gino said he understood Kallen's "kimochi",
while Kallen understood Lelouch's "omoi".
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Old 2009-02-17, 05:11   Link #2089
bladeofdarkness
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lelouch's reason for pushing kallen away was not to "keep her safe"
the last thing she was is safe after that one since
1)making her believe he doesnt feel anything for her
2)taking kaguya and the heads of the UFN hostage
3)conquring japan
doing all those things make it impossible for her NOT to oppose him and fight against him
ignoring rivals and telling his soldiers to release him after taking nina was keeping him safe
asking kallen to sit this one out would have kepts her safe
pushing kallen away without telling her anything puts not only HER in danger but puts the entire ZERO-R in danger
one could argue that kallen would probably have been safer from harm on lelouch's side (since he suzaku is practiclly the only real risk she was facing) and would have made ZERO-R much easier to pull off
it wasnt about "keeping her safe"
it was about making sure that by the end of it all she will be able to fullfil everything she had been fighting for
it was taking on another challenge and making ZERO-R even harder to pull off for the sake of securing such a future for her
he couldnt know for sure that she would survive the battle (just as he couldnt know for sure that he would be able to win)
but he was already putting EVERYTHING at risk (including nunnaly at that point) in the hopes of coming out on top with the ENTIRE WORLD AT STAKE
under those conditions, his unwillingness to involve kallen in the plan despite knowing the stakes is a pretty big thing considering that he NEVER HAD SUCH PROBLEMS IN THE PAST
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Old 2009-02-17, 05:23   Link #2090
SonOfHeaven
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Kallen understanding Lelouch cared for her answers what she asked him at turn 22? She asked what he thinks of her and why he told her to live on. I don't think that's a very clear answer for both of Kallen's questions. The little wish answers the live on question but not what Lelouch actually feels for her which was the climax of her development.

Imagine this
Kallen says "What am I to you"
Lelouch says "I care for you"

Isn't a clear answer. (Speaking of which he wasn't trying to look into her eyes during turn 22.) Kallen was an very important existence to Lelouch. If not he would have lied to her at her most vulnerable moment.

Not only her poem but her character song also showed why she loves Lelouch and is only waiting for him. Screams out an love only for Lelouch in life and in death. I don't think Kallen would think this only for a friend who only cared for her and that's it from her POV . Just doesn't makes sense to me.

What's so bad about Kallen believing Lelouch loved her anyway?
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Last edited by SonOfHeaven; 2009-02-17 at 06:10.
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Old 2009-02-17, 05:24   Link #2091
dec4rhapsody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
To add one more thing to that, why would Lelouch's only dying memory of Kallen be their kiss (and likewise be the single longest memory if one doesn't count the three childhood images as a single scene) if he only cared for her as a friend?
Because the kiss was bad enough to remember it for a life time.

Btw, it's safe to say that Lelouch somehow wanted to keep Kallen "safe", but what concerns us is the root reason behind Lelouch's (in)action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven View Post

What's so bad about Kallen believing Lelouch loved her anyway?

Because she is the only LI doing so?

Mwa, I don't get it.

Considering that her "what I am to you" is sorta the key question regarding to her characterization, what's the point to make her falsely believe he loved her?
(well, are there any valid points for the "falsely" part?)
Are the post-series materials reinforcing the "believe" or rather the "understood"?


Btw, although "what am I to you" is a open question, normally no one would ask it if there aren't any expectations.
As I said before, it's Lelouch's attitude and behavior towards Kallen that triggered her question.
And...
I*M*O
Her "expected value" ranges from "Doushi/kindred soul" to "Taisetsu/important".
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Last edited by dec4rhapsody; 2009-02-17 at 05:46.
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Old 2009-02-17, 06:28   Link #2092
Levy
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There's nothing BAD in Kallen being persuaded that Lelouch loved her.
But, no matter how much is lost in translation, you can't say that her being sure of this it's 100% sure PROOF of Lelouch loving her back.

...could be, could be not, it's her word and not his.
I can see all of your reason for believing that she's right in that, still, I can't see how it's so hard for you to accept that someone still keeps being skepticall without whining about the HATE toward her character this implies.
It's not always like that, moreover here.

relax people! we love Karen-chan... ...it's just... not even us are Lelouch! *is shot* =P
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Old 2009-02-17, 06:35   Link #2093
mngafan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
it was about making sure that by the end of it all she will be able to fullfil everything she had been fighting for
Yes, I agree; what you say is in accordance with that part saying that lelouch wished for Kallen to follow her dreams, but that does not show that lelouch loved her.



There is nothing wrong with kallen believing lelouch loved her, but unfortunately, love is sometimes one-sided. Even if she "loves Lelouch and is only waiting for him", who says lelouch loved her? Look at Shirley: she loved lelouch from the beginning, yet never received a clear answer from him. However, I agree that kallen was a really important person for lelouch and I won't exclude the possibility of lelouch loving her back. It's just that, for me, lelouch loving c.c is more plausible.
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Old 2009-02-17, 06:48   Link #2094
Levy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mngafan View Post
It's just that, for me, lelouch loving c.c is more plausible.
I used to think the same, according to Lelouch's personality, but everything you get in post season material points in another direction.
And CCLelouch anyway has always been more ...abstract... than the other pairings - where at least we are totally sure of the feelings of the girls.
It could have been there, it could have been not, but it doesn't really matter in the end. They got their partnership and that was the important part of their bond.
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Old 2009-02-17, 07:04   Link #2095
SonOfHeaven
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@Levy

I completely agree. I never said Lelouch loved her as in 100% confirmed(I don't think I have before). Only from Kallen's POV though not from Lelouch's perspective as well. I wouldn't be shocked if Lelouch felt the same especially taking his actions in consideration here(turn 22 aka OOC from Lelouch). I understand where someone else is coming from. I don't think I was being offensive, sorry if I was.

I don't see Kallen loving Lelouch romantically and knowing he doesn't feel the same way but still only loving him for the rest of her life. Kallen isn't that type of character to me.

Difference between Shirley and Kallen development. Was that Shirley wanted to make Lelouch fall in love with her(she said so at turn 12) and be the only true person to Lelouch. Kallen wanted to know what exactly she meant to Lelouch as the climax of her development. From her POV she understood it as love and its simply beautiful like watching an sunset with my gf lol.
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Old 2009-02-17, 07:16   Link #2096
Levy
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You were not offensive, don't worry about that, I just wanna make clear that neither I neither the majority of people here are saying they are not 100% sure of Lelouch's feeling toward Kallen because they hate her. It's not so, and I wish that kalulu fans would agree with this at least...

I don't care what happens in other places where I do not post, like 2ch or the wide wide world, complaining about the shit Kallen get elsewhere here won't lead us to anything but a bit of wank, not even that juicy, and that's all...

friendly advice: don't tell your girlfriend that! =P
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Old 2009-02-17, 07:28   Link #2097
SonOfHeaven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy View Post
You were not offensive, don't worry about that, I just wanna make clear that neither I neither the majority of people here are saying they are not 100% sure of Lelouch's feeling toward Kallen because they hate her. It's not so, and I wish that kalulu fans would agree with this at least...

I don't care what happens in other places where I do not post, like 2ch or the wide wide world, complaining about the shit Kallen get elsewhere here won't lead us to anything but a bit of wank, not even that juicy, and that's all...

friendly advice: don't tell your girlfriend that! =P
I understand that. I was just trying to take one's interpretation and put it in everything that's been shown/released and see if it makes sense for her character and development to myself. I wasn't trying to claim that whomever doesn't see it my way means they hate Kallen. Not at all. The what's bad about Kallen believing Lelouch loved her, was supposed to not be that serious.
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Old 2009-02-17, 08:17   Link #2098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mngafan View Post
Not every fan thinks this way. If that was the case, what would be the purpose of the scenes between them? Why would the staff bother to make kallen ask c.c in turn 24 if she loved lelouch? Just to say it's not like c.cxlelouch was almost invisible.


The problem with Kallen's poem is that it represents her thoughts and what she wanted to hear. "If you had said 'I love you'"; she yearned for lelouch to tell her that because she loved him deeply. I remember the phrase "even if it was a lie": the way the sentence was written, that part was supposedly given less importance. Ok. But still, was there even a reason to add this part then? My point is, Lelouch's feelings cannot be confirmed via this poem.

What is the translation for the "understood his feelings" matter? Gino said the same thing to kallen in turn 24, so did lelouch to nina in the next turn... Yet, they were not talking about romance... Was it explicitly stated that she understood that lelouch loved her? She could well have understood his feelings towards zero requiem, or anything else.
It was mostly kinda an exaggeration of mine, i'm sorry i stretched it too far.
Speaking of, let me tell you, that the scene in #24 you mentioned, could serve two purposes. One the literal, and the other the metaphorical.
It is funny that C.C mentions "you won Kallen" and Kallen saying "i could not care less" because she kinda missed the point of what C.C meant there in relevance to their whole convo. Oh well, i won't elaborate more on that one, because i think it was more of an-in-joke of the director and writer towards a certain something,.

As for Kallen understanding Lelouch's feelings, it is about ZR + his own feelings as well.
If Kallen, had 1/10 of what C.C got in the marketing department, i think a lot of people would be more "open" in the possibility of KallenxLelouch mutual feelings.
But the visual-marketing-concept, does affect people, whether we like it or not.
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Old 2009-02-17, 09:51   Link #2099
dec4rhapsody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lie View Post
If you are this taken aback by him possibly kissing her, I don't understand why every single other line that may imply Lelouch > Kallen hasn't been beaten senseless by the "who wrote it" brigade.

Why does no one question why the scriptwriters decided to include a kiss scene at all?
(Oh and btw the episode was written by Okouchi while Morita proposed the idea)
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Old 2009-02-17, 10:04   Link #2100
incorrupts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
Why does no one question why the scriptwriters decided to include a kiss scene at all?
(Oh and btw the episode was written by Okouchi while Morita proposed the idea)

With this logic, we will question every scene in Geass. Obviously, most of the time, certain scenes are being written for a purpose. Simple.
People can go now and say, "why does no one question why the writers included an interruption to CCxL scene in #24? Or this and that and this and that and zomg!"

No one questions the kiss scene, because it came natural.

Last edited by incorrupts; 2009-02-17 at 10:18.
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