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Old 2009-02-18, 20:36   Link #2241
Levy
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Loli, just to make you happy and try to give you an alternative explanation (very dull, honestly, but I feel like playing with this) for the kiss there - my insomnia is less awesome than Nobodyman's, I'm half asleep actually..oh wait.. it's not night for Nobodyman now ) - the kiss is there because:

First sight: it was there to wrap up all the memories.. I didn't honestly paid any attention to how long the flashback lasted, and I wonder, as usual, how much thought the staff put into that..

Elaborating a bit: it was anyway a very intense moment for Lelouch and the last attempt someone did to seek the truth behind his epic trolling of the evil Emperor.
The last act of devotion Karen showed to him that actually pushed him forward in his recognition of the real values he was supposed to embody and fighted for in the end, even through a lie... so "goodbye Karen, my Q1, you believed in me and this gave me strengt, I had to push you away because I don't want you to dirty your hands with that, but knowing your still had faith in me makes me stronger"
dull explanation, yeah, maybe .

Alternative: (that is more Kalulish, but also more trustworthy keeping everything in account) the regret.. what coud have been if... a thousand of things we all know already. Aka Lelouch having some romatic feelings for her, but more blurry for me than what you think.

... now I'm seriously going to bed, goodnight guys XD

Last edited by Levy; 2009-02-19 at 12:11. Reason: lol I re-read it and I was really half-sleeping it seems.. XD
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Old 2009-02-18, 20:36   Link #2242
Nosauz
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It's guy love, clearly the correct couple is Lelouch x Suzaku. Even JD and Turk would agree.
Spoiler:


In spoiler brackets so take less space, but this song is basically LXS would be awesome if the the VA's would perform this.
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Old 2009-02-18, 22:59   Link #2243
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
2) he later on goes to the SAZ with the full intention of using euphie (a girl he admits was his first love) for his own plans knowng full well that it would also make her out to be a monster in the public eyes (the backlash of her shooting ZERO wouldnt be much smaller then what it actually was in the end) and would destroy everything that she is (a true pacifist)
He does stop when Euphie claims to renounce her status as royalty though.

he later on uses what happens to farther his goals despite knowing the truth (that he is the real mass-murderer)[/QUOTE]

I doubt he could have explained what really happened, due to the outrage from the Japanese.
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Old 2009-02-19, 04:19   Link #2244
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
He does stop when Euphie claims to renounce her status as royalty though.

Quote:
he later on uses what happens to farther his goals despite knowing the truth (that he is the real mass-murderer)
I doubt he could have explained what really happened, due to the outrage from the Japanese.
you missed the point (he changed his mind in the middle once he figured that euphie really is the right one)
the point was that lelouch has always been willing to use those closest to him when it suited his needs
even when the result would be their destraction
which is why his later actions regarding kallen are so uniqe
in the one situation when he is faced with the biggest battle of his life with the fate of the entire world at stake
he forgoes using his (up till then) most powerful and loyal follower
despite never having any problems having her fight on his side before
despite using everyone else who he can get his hands on and is of use to him (nina, kaguya, sayoko)
and despite kallen practiclly walking up to him and ASKING "whats the plan"
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Old 2009-02-19, 05:13   Link #2245
Levy
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To be fair, Lelouch used a lot of people in ZR yet planned an escape for all of them, and I think this makes an important contrast with the person he was before turn 21.

About Kallen, using her in ZR was not possible if not in a way that would have meant bringing her down the demon king & friends path with him.
I see where you are coming from, and I see how this fits with side materials and stuff, but having her out of the ZR is maybe the part that makes sense the most also in a 'my dear friend - only' vision of his feelings for her - and, just to make it clear, I'm not in any way saying that it is the closest to truth with this - but still, if you care for someone, you try to protect him and spare him sorrow as much as you can.

Having Kallen in ZR not only would have meant risking her life, but put her fate on a dead end track. If she survived, she could have never return to her life, her family and friends, and Lelouch didn't want that. Suzaku can't go back, he himself can't go back, Kallen still had that chance and he knew... it's not strictly necessary that he loved her romantically to decide he didn't want her to ruin her life for him.

I think that a non-romanticall form of love is more than enough to decide that you do not want to ruin the life of someone that is dear to you, even if this goes against your convenience, so, seeing it as caring instead of romantic love is not in any way downgrading the importance of what Lelouch did for her keeping her out of his plan.
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Old 2009-02-19, 05:28   Link #2246
bladeofdarkness
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during ep 24 he was planing to charge at the damocles WITH the avalon AND the hostages (he said so himself)
that means that sayoko nina Lloyd and cecile wouldnt have an "escape plan" by pretending to betray him
its only AFTER xing-ke sinks the avalon that he changes the plan and tells them to "betray" him by releasing the hostages (and buying themselves the benifit of the doubt from xing-ke and kaguya)
the original plan wouldnt have contained the exit strategy taht his followers used since the OOBK would have never liberated the avalon
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Old 2009-02-19, 05:50   Link #2247
Levy
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My point is... Lelouch is changed from the man that indiscriminately makes use of people he used to be, and the fact that he plans an escape for those people he just barely cared about shows you this.

Moreover, Karen is very dear to him, and, unlike said people, there was no way of including her in his plan and having her rehabilitated in society if she survived the battle. Keep in mind that the existence of Geass is not of pubblic knowledge, Karen would have had been considered the same as Suzaku if she fighted by his side on her own will.
She would not get into the future, and this is the last thing Lelouch wanted for her, so he taked the risk of having her running around on her Gurren and cross his fingers that this won't turn out in the failure of his plan, but I think that a 'caring' form of love is more than enough to justify this from his side.

There's probably more than that, but I think this wouldn't have changed even if the relationship between them would have never been developed as romantical.
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Old 2009-02-19, 06:21   Link #2248
bladeofdarkness
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i rather think that the very fact that there even IS a change is indicative
becouse in every other aspect lelouch has changed for the WORSE after ep 21
where as once he was still using his geass with some level of morality
during the final eps he uses it to turn thousends of people into slaves and cannon fodder
where once he was less then willing to involve his friends in his battles
he kidnapps nina by force to use her skills (he also doesnt have any problems destorying his BEST FRIEND'S life)
he declares clearly and inteniotnally that he will spill "rivers of blood"
he is even willing to use his geass on NUNNALY (in season 1 he had no intention to use it on suzaku at first) and at one point comments that if he has to kill nunnaly for the sake of ZERO-R then it cant be helped
he crosses many lines that would turn most characters into complete monsters (the fans are blinded by his awesome leather pants)

having kallen fight for him (and risk her life and future for it) is NOT a new concept
she had been doing it since ep 2 of season 1 (its her defult setting)
lelouch choosing NOT to have her fight beside him (despite changing for the worse in every other aspect) is rather significant
we know that nunnaly is the most importent thing in his life
but if he has to choose between her and ZERO-R then he chooses ZERO-R
thats how importent ZERO-R IS
and yet instead of having kallen fight for him during it (again, its her defult setting) he makes a deceision to CHANGE the way things have always been and have her become his enemy instead

there is something to this that you are not admiting
that the change in lelouch's character during the final ep is NOT for the better in any other field
he completely loses any morals he held during the past 45 eps (not that he had all that much) and he does so intentionally becouse the mission he faces makes it needed for him to do so
he willingly and intentioanlly turns himself into a monster greater then his father
he didnt change " from the man that indiscriminately makes use of people" but rather changed TO "the man that indiscriminately makes use of people" and not mearly uses them but turns them into his brainwashed slaves
and AT THE SAME TIME he does something for kallen thats stands in complete contrast to every other changes that he undergoes during the final arc
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Old 2009-02-19, 07:13   Link #2249
Levy
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(moving this to Lelouch's thread as soon as I'd have a chance to go tl;dr on my take on his Emperor persona, because it will be really tl;dr I fear, and way off topic... so see you there, eventually )

..and..and *tries desperately to seek something to keep be on topic*.. new PD is out, am I right... how gay it is? I mean, how much the feelings for Lelouch from Rollo's side are potrayed as romantical?
not that I really care all that much - quite the opposite - but it was first new thing that popped into my mind ^ ^;;

Last one, I was a bit disappointed, there was the gay whip but not as much Scheneizel/Kanon as I expected ...it was honestly a pretty pointless PD. And CÚcile's wardrobe is ... duh... embarassing at best. Lol fanservice... XD;;
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Old 2009-02-19, 10:03   Link #2250
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
(moving this to Lelouch's thread as soon as I'd have a chance to go tl;dr on my take on his Emperor persona, because it will be really tl;dr I fear, and way off topic... so see you there, eventually )

..and..and *tries desperately to seek something to keep be on topic*.. new PD is out, am I right... how gay it is? I mean, how much the feelings for Lelouch from Rollo's side are potrayed as romantical?
not that I really care all that much - quite the opposite - but it was first new thing that popped into my mind ^ ^;;

Last one, I was a bit disappointed, there was the gay whip but not as much Scheneizel/Kanon as I expected ...it was honestly a pretty pointless PD. And CÚcile's wardrobe is ... duh... embarassing at best. Lol fanservice... XD;;
Well fangirsl are swooning all over it for obvious reasons but personally I couldn't care less since Rolo is one of my "least" favorite characters in the story, so a picture drama that focuses on his relationship with Lelouch is already a DO NOT WANT in my book, overall if you like Rolo go for it. The previous one was as you said pointless it seems after all the fanservice given to the male audience in the previous one this Scheneizel one also had the fangirls swooning to get more insight into his character and relationship with Kanon (newsflash there is none). On the brightside the next two looks very promising since PD8 takes the point of view of the participants in ZR the night before which I'm interested to see Jeremiah's views on the matter being Lelouch's LOYAL servant amd of course the final one being the fireworks ceremony at Ashford all I can say is please don't include Gino and Anya in it.
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Old 2009-02-19, 23:38   Link #2251
mngafan
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
There was an official statement somewhere that Lelouch "never yearned for C.C. to be his lover (or a mother figure)", and that he saw her as his equal instead.
hmm... Was it really stated this way? "he saw c.c as an equal" was it not mentioned another place? I mean, he could see her as an equal, but still have feelings for her.

Why would some memories be longer than others as lelouch died? I think they help to seperate different stages in his life: the kiss placed between ZR and the events of R2( before ZR ), the image of him and rolo together between the first and second season and so on. Some might say that ZR started before the kiss, but it was only after it that lelouch started to act evil and made the black knights and the world his enemy. Why Shirley appeared, I cannot say...perhaps because he is meeting his death, like she did.


Thanks to Mystique for having posted here. I think that was a good thing: not watching the series allows one to give an unbiased translation and interpretation( not that I'm saying the other translators were biased , far from that ). When it is said that kallen understood lelouch's feelings, I think it was stated that it was about his wish for her to live with her own dreams. So, deducing from that that kallen understood that lelouch loved her and linking that part to the poem might not be a good idea. It is an interpretation which may be right, but wrong as well.
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Old 2009-02-19, 23:52   Link #2252
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Originally Posted by mngafan View Post
hmm... Was it really stated this way? "he saw c.c as an equal" was it not mentioned another place? I mean, he could see her as an equal, but still have feelings for her.
This was all from one source. The Complete R2 Guidebook stated that "Lelouch never yearned for C.C. as a lover or mother figure. He saw her as an equal." He could see her as an equal and have feelings for her, but since its in the same source, it would be non-romantic feelings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mngafan View Post
When it is said that kallen understood lelouch's feelings, I think it was stated that it was about his wish for her to live with her own dreams. So, deducing from that that kallen understood that lelouch loved her and linking that part to the poem might not be a good idea. It is an interpretation which may be right, but wrong as well.
Actually, this came up in multiple places. It was specifically about his wish and, seperarely, his feelings in one source. It is not stated she understood his feelings as just his wish. Just his feelings and keeping him in her heart as she moves forward in another. And so on. Tying it to just his wish is a bit off since its not said in that way, its simply another thing that she understood but his feelings were a seperate understanding.
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Old 2009-02-19, 23:53   Link #2253
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Originally Posted by mngafan View Post
Thanks to Mystique for having posted here. I think that was a good thing: not watching the series allows one to give an unbiased translation and interpretation( not that I'm saying the other translators were biased , far from that ). When it is said that kallen understood lelouch's feelings, I think it was stated that it was about his wish for her to live with her own dreams. So, deducing from that that kallen understood that lelouch loved her and linking that part to the poem might not be a good idea. It is an interpretation which may be right, but wrong as well.
Leaving aside the fallacy of the concept of "biased translations", how can someone who have never seen the story in question and understand the context of the material being discussed offer a viable interpretation of a poem on the inner thoughts of a character? Without having seen the series, they would not know the context in which the feelings of the characters are being shown and would obviously interpret them differently and more often then not with less accuracy in terms of the actual context. It is like randomly picking a paragraph out of a novel and using that to deduce what the plot is, it may work if the paragraph is detailed and describes the plot but more often then not you end up with nothing.

Interpretations are made using your own thoughts of available information, there is a reason why archeologists still have differing opinions on the disappearance of the homo sapien archaics like the Neanderthals. Interpretation by their very nature contain bias as it is a person's own thoughts on what they believe the information represents. The only unbiased opinion there can be is from the creators of the story as they know what they intended and can tell us without having to interpret what is shown.
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Old 2009-02-19, 23:59   Link #2254
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Here I was thinking the understanding his feelings quote was separate from the poem.

LMAO at the immediacy of the kalulu posts to refute claims.

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Old 2009-02-20, 00:02   Link #2255
Frostfire
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Here I was thinking the understanding his feelings quote was separate from the poem.

LMAO at the immediacy of the kalulu posts to refute claims.

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Were either of the above posts Kalulu in nature? Demon's post is a logic post about "bias". My post was just about information.
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Old 2009-02-20, 00:06   Link #2256
yvj
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Were either of the above posts Kalulu in nature? Demon's post is a logic post about "bias". My post was just about information.
Whether they were Kalulu in nature does not matter since we're under a single umbrella by now.

I was going to post something similar to both posts before I saw them. (So the hive mind is in effect. )

Decided against being "aggressive"
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Old 2009-02-20, 00:09   Link #2257
demon_god04
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To be honest, if Frost have not linked me here, I'd still be blissfully unaware and likely playing Star Ocean the second evolution instead of replying.

I just love how debating something you disagree with is now being aggressive.
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Old 2009-02-20, 00:13   Link #2258
yvj
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I just love how debating something you disagree with is now being aggressive.
Que Sera Sera

But I am enjoying the perception that the entire kalulu argument was based on the poem alone.

The translation reiterated exactly what has been said by original translations with a simplified view.

But y'know...
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Old 2009-02-20, 00:22   Link #2259
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Well that is where interpretation comes in. Some believed that the Neanderthals evolved into homo sapiens sapiens, some believe they interbred with the homo sapien sapiens and some believes that they were marginalized by the homo sapien sapiens and being pushed into areas they were not adapted to and died out.
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Old 2009-02-20, 01:24   Link #2260
mngafan
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
This was all from one source. The Complete R2 Guidebook stated that "Lelouch never yearned for C.C. as a lover or mother figure. He saw her as an equal." He could see her as an equal and have feelings for her, but since its in the same source, it would be non-romantic feelings.



Actually, this came up in multiple places. It was specifically about his wish and, seperarely, his feelings in one source. It is not stated she understood his feelings as just his wish. Just his feelings and keeping him in her heart as she moves forward in another. And so on. Tying it to just his wish is a bit off since its not said in that way, its simply another thing that she understood but his feelings were a seperate understanding.

Thanks for the replies
Well, I'll stick with cluclu and the fact that 'yearn does not mean 'feel'. The word 'instead' had bothered me.



About the poem, It already represents kallen's 'inner thoughts'. What I mean is that the poem can be interpreted in different ways. Someone who did not watch the series will give an opinion according to the words he/she is given, not based on other interpretations which have chances of being wrong, and what we need to interprete is in fact the poem itself. I wonder if I made myself more clear.
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