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Old 2009-04-17, 21:06   Link #4621
Kid Ying
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
Much as I love KaLulu, I kind of agree with you a bit.

Not to say that KaLulu is not canon, but I do not see the 'overwhelming evidence' that Lelouch ever loved her back. It was never shot down, so to speak, but as far as I can understand there was never any concrete evidence that Lelouch's feelings for her were anything other than platonic.

There's just lots and lots of subtext that is very, very easy to see as canon proof. ^^ Also, I do think S1 and R2 both had a lot of development between the two of them, in a very romantic tone. I'd say it's a bit oblivious to say that they were not supposed to have romantic tension between them, but 'overwhelming evidence'? All of the after-series material I've heard about seems to focus on Kallen's romantic feelings for Lelouch rather than Lelouch's for her.

Also, about the LuluCC thing --- I'm probably going to get jumped on for this, but I don't really see it as having shot the pairing down. "Lelouch never desired her as a mother or a lover, he considered her an equal". Sounds to me like the perfect pairing/relationship. They are on equal grounds as individuals, fit well together, and love each other dearly. They don't have to want to be interested in sex to be together.

That said, as I mentioned earlier it's also possible to see them in a platonic rather than romantic light (at least in R2. >_>), which is just as deep and meaningful, and I'm going to stop before I blather on too much about how much I love those two together in any possible way. XD
And i'm kind of agree with you agreeing a bit with him, lol.

There are some Kalulu scenes that to me looked like a great development between those two, but there are scenes that i think that are a little overrated in the LOVE LOVE scale.

For example: When Lelouch tries to refrain himself. Zongetsu, the hero of a generation, said everytime that it doesn't means nothing, that Lelouch would try to make a move with every girl in the existence at that moment. I kinda agree with him. Lelouch is a guy, he probably have hots for a lot of women(and Suzaku), it's not a surprise for him to try to make a move for Kallen, besides, he even got a chance to succeed, haha. He just wants to feel good.

But what's nice from that scene is that Kallen makes him get into his senses again. There's not much people that could do that, specially when Nunnally is in the middle. To me, that's just awesome. Makes Lelouch grown as a character and shows that he cares about her opinion.

But the Kallen topping Lelouch scene i never saw that muuuuuch of development. I can only see this in a nice way for Kalulu looking on the fact that is a cliche for lovers in shonen series, besides that, i don't think it's that great. After that, when they took Kallen, that scene was awesome, but the topping scene, meh... In the end, i still don't know if Lelouch truly cared for her in that way, i don't have any clue. All those scenes makes me feel "Well, he likes her, that's for sure. But he loves her?"

Don't hate me, people.
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Old 2009-04-17, 21:10   Link #4622
snowdevil_crow
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Yeah, I agree with you completely. The big point about that scene in Turn 7 was less "he wants to sex her up omg" (though at least it let us know he as a libido and isn't completely asexual) and more "she brought him back to his senses".
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Old 2009-04-17, 21:16   Link #4623
yvj
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Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
True, true, I suppose... it just seems a lot of people were jumping on him for saying that they could have made a good couple.

But that could have been more because of the rather more bizarre comments, I suppose...
You're new (relatively) I assume. He's been doing that through all of R2 no one was jumping on him as a new guy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Ying View Post
But the Kallen topping Lelouch scene i never saw that muuuuuch of development. I can only see this in a nice way for Kalulu looking on the fact that is a cliche for lovers in shonen series, besides that, i don't think it's that great. After that, when they took Kallen, that scene was awesome, but the topping scene, meh... In the end, i still don't know if Lelouch truly cared for her in that way, i don't have any clue. All those scenes makes me feel "Well, he likes her, that's for sure. But he loves her?"

Don't hate me, people.
Topping scene alone has not been used as Kalulu evidence.
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Last edited by yvj; 2009-04-17 at 21:36.
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Old 2009-04-17, 21:23   Link #4624
Kid Ying
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Specially because you just have to go backwards a couple of eps and listen to Lelouch "Oh! I loved those times! I want to bring everyone together! We are the world... We are the children..." play to break all the romance in the scene.

But without the fireworks on ashford, the topping scene would be EPIC.
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Old 2009-04-17, 21:31   Link #4625
yvj
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Originally Posted by Kid Ying View Post
Specially because you just have to go a couple of eps backwards and listen to Lelouch "Oh! I loved those times! I want to bring everyone together! We are the world... We are the children..." play to break all the romance in the scene.

But without the fireworks on ashford, the topping scene would be EPIC.

Ignoring if there was any romance in that scene. You would think that would curtail the Kallen as only a comrade talk.

80% of Kalulu arguments goes into just making the case of Kallen being on Lelouch's precious person list. Even though he said it with his own words.

The next 20% is making the case of why she was most likely the LI.
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Old 2009-04-17, 21:38   Link #4626
snowdevil_crow
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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
You're new (relatively) I assume. He's been doing that through all of R2 no one was jumping on him as a new guy

Oh... yeah, I am kind of new, I didn't join until R2 was over.
... hm. >_> Puts a bit of a different spin on things...
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Old 2009-04-17, 22:18   Link #4627
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yvj View Post
The next 20% is making the case of why she was most likely the LI.
The LI?
That implies that there has to be one, and only one.
But I don't see how Shirley is considerably less of a love interest than Kallen. Sure, there was the side material, but in my opinion, that simply wasn't needed with Shirley, because there was nothing left to say. They lived in different worlds that touched but never really went together.
It didn't work out, but without the side material, I'd still have said that Shirlulu was closest to being "canon" except for LuluSuza and ClovisxLelouch, of course. Simply becuase that relationship had that particular feeling about it that made me go hmmm.
Personal feelings, of course, but I don't see how Kallen >>>>> Shirley in the romance department.
Not that I want to really go into this - I think I have heard all the arguments from both sides about a hundred times now, and to me, they both make sense -, but the the put me off a bit. xD

@snow:
Oh, and I agree with the (platonic) Cluclu thingy. I don't see how that relationship could be any less important than Kalulu or Shirlulu. And I wouldn't argue much if someone tried to tell me otherwise, because, well...
They are accomplices.
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Old 2009-04-17, 22:42   Link #4628
Xander
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I don't want to get into shipping / romance discussion myself, or at least not right now, but perhaps some of you might find this useful...here are the actual quotes (and links to the sources, for more context) so that people will have a better idea of what was mentioned by "Word of God" instead of what darthfury78 summarized or paraphrased.

Spoiler:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...86#post1828186

Spoiler:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...60#post1885760

I may be missing something but those are the two main things which were referenced and they do sound a bit different from the summary...or at least that's my impression, but I don't want to go into my own interpretation right now (in a certain way it's probably already enough for me to post this).

Well, that's all I had to say, back to your regular programming.
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Old 2009-04-17, 22:44   Link #4629
yvj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
The LI?
That implies that there has to be one, and only one.
It implies what it implies. What's the difference between that and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I'd still have said that Shirlulu was closest to being "canon"
At one point somewhere it was felt there was a slight edge in one direction. As I said the other 20% is to explain why Kallen possibly is yadda yadda.

Of course I can't fight how people simply feel about things. I can reasonably put forth an argument based on many different things to cast doubt on others or reinforce certain positions.

Of course anyone has all the rights to do the same. But when it ultimately boils down to people saying "I just don't/can't see" then that's it. There's nothing left anyone could do a wall has been hit.

Like I said some put the case forward why Kallen may have been. Nothing evil or malicious about it.

People want to argue it. That's why the thread is here.
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Old 2009-04-17, 22:55   Link #4630
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yvj View Post
It implies what it implies. What's the difference between that and
The difference is that I say "it felt to me like she came the closest" - which means there where others that might (also?) have been love interests -, while "she was probably the love interest" would imply that the staff intended that one girl, and only her, to be the one to capture Lelouch's heart.
And I see neither. I see some romance here and there, yes, but nothing solid like "oh look, it's the girl of his dreams and they were so meant to be together for all eternity!". And if I did, I'd at least see two girls of his dreams.
But... yeah, maybe I'm nitpicking. xD
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Old 2009-04-17, 23:07   Link #4631
yvj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
The difference is that I say "it felt to me like she came the closest" - which means there where others that might (also?) have been love interests -, while "she was probably the love interest" would imply that the staff intended that one girl, and only her, to be the one to capture Lelouch's heart.
And I see neither. I see some romance here and there, yes, but nothing solid like "oh look, it's the girl of his dreams and they were so meant to be together for all eternity!". And if I did, I'd at least see two girls of his dreams.
But... yeah, maybe I'm nitpicking. xD
There's no difference, an opinion was formed. The question comes into the reasoning behind this opinion. Which leads to people questioning the validity of the opinion. There's fair arguments and there are nutty ones and there are those made of compromises.

Lelouch is dead so we're stuck where we're at. I don't need Kallen >>>>>Shirley. Kallen > Shirley is at the moment where my line of thinking is at. And admittedly there are times when Kallen >= Shirley comes under serious consideration.

If someone goes "What....? I don't see yadda yadda" well people put out their arguments again and the thread revives and explodes.

It's the circle of life and it moves us all.
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Last edited by yvj; 2009-04-17 at 23:25.
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Old 2009-04-18, 00:02   Link #4632
darthfury78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
thats part of what made season 2 less awesome then season 1
the britannian army used to be full of bad ass millitery figures like darlton and gilford and jeremia
cornellia was a woman (which is less commen on the battle field) but she was a lady of war with an air of grace about her who dressed like a respecable leader and soldier would
and the same goes for villeta

then season 2 comes along and you get a pink haired loli who wears about HALF a uniform
it makes it hard to take the KoR seriusly after that
The Director's original plans for Code Geass R2 was to have been the second half of the first season. It was to have retained the same format and dialog that was geared at the same late night audience as the first season until one of the Sunrise Executives changed their 11PM Thursday night timeslot to the Sunday 5PM timeslot, otherwise known as family hour. As a result, the staff was told to alter their initial plans for the second half as a reintroduction to this new audience, of which most of them had already seen the first season of Code Geass to begin with. It was a direct insult to their intelligence because it was quite easy to access the first season for those who have not seen it. This was not the fault of the creative staff. There were a lot of problems with the production of Code Geass R2, due to the enormous pressure that was placed upon the staff. This is why Code Geass R2 is not as good as the First Season because the original plans was to have continued where Stage 25 had left off with Lelouch defeating Suzaku. What we have seen from the second season was nothing compared to what the staff had initially intended. Where it not for the timeslot chance, the second half of Code Geass might have been just as interesting as the first half. The second half of the series was to have started with Stage 26 rather than Turn 1. Personally, I hope that someday we might see this version of Code Geass R2.

Last edited by darthfury78; 2009-04-18 at 00:12.
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Old 2009-04-18, 00:24   Link #4633
SonOfHeaven
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@Xander

Thanks. Must have missed the first part of what you linked to. Well Lelouch's VA didn't think she become an love interest one same as Kallen's VA with her own opinion. At least Okouchi or Taniguchi didn't say so. Just stating how both the characters are different in nature it seems like.
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Old 2009-04-18, 00:27   Link #4634
Nobodyman9
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You know, a thought occured to me. It's funny how Kalulu is supposedly the closest to canon, and yet it's the one that keeps getting refuted (that is, people attempt to refute it). Nobody ever bitches about Shirlulu (not that I'm complaining). Really, I thought we were the unfortunate ones, but what you Kalulus must have to put up with. I guess your fun doesn't come without a price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
The LI?
That implies that there has to be one, and only one.
But I don't see how Shirley is considerably less of a love interest than Kallen.
Simply this. And working from that idea, I think the best thing we could do, and the way we could solve all these arguments, is that everyone needs to convert to LelouchxHarem, or LelouchxEveryone. So there ya go, Lelouch gets everyones male (or female) of preference, and we all share the same ship. Hey, I'm willing if everyone else is. So who's on board?

*crickets chirp*.............................


Well, the offer's on the table.
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Old 2009-04-18, 00:31   Link #4635
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
You know, a thought occured to me. It's funny how Kalulu is supposedly the closest to canon, and yet it's the one that keeps getting refuted (that is, people attempt to refute it). Nobody ever bitches about Shirlulu (not that I'm complaining). Really, I thought we were the unfortunate ones, but what you Kalulus must have to put up with. I guess your fun doesn't come without a price.
People don't bring up Shirlulu as much anymore, so naturally the attempts to refute fall in tandem. Time was there were some good discussions about it.
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Old 2009-04-18, 00:58   Link #4636
SonOfHeaven
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About kalulu in my opinion. Kallen did ask Lelouch specifically what she meant to him twice. I would have thought it would have been answered during the show(Lelouch's silence not helping the matter. However its been stated that Lelouch was hiding his true feelings during turn 22. Which I thought so as well). We know Kallen needed an answer in order to move on. Kallen more than likely thought she meant nothing to him initially during turn 22. After she realized everything about Lelouch and his actions, I would think she knew what she meant to him since it was important for her. People can form their own opinions on the matter on what his feelings were.

The staff should have just made Lelouch's feelings for Kallen clear in my opinion. At least her poem gave some insight on what may have going through Lelouch's mind from Kallen's perspective.

@darthfury

We should just wait and see what is in store for CG in the future. What's done is done.
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Old 2009-04-18, 01:00   Link #4637
Nobodyman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
People don't bring up Shirlulu as much anymore, so naturally the attempts to refute fall in tandem. Time was there were some good discussions about it.
Well, I guess that all went flying out the window after her death. I've been on this forum since then, and I can't really remember a whole lot, if any, since then. Of course this is also a hive of Kalulus (no offense). Perhaps I should get out more, and see what the anime community outside of AS has to say.

Hmm...really though, lets examine the situation here. You've got AS, which is made up of mostly Kalulus, some Shirlulus who don't post much, some irregulars who don't care either way (Nogi, Levy, etc.), maybe a few CluClus, and darthfury So naturally, Kalulu becomes a topic of discussion a good part of the time, lets say half the time, with all the other stuff, serious and for lulz, taking up the other half. Well, lulz is lulz so we can leave that alone. Also, we can leave alone any pairings that don't have anything to do with Lelouch (SuzakuxEuphie, MillyxNina, ArthurxClovis, whatever) So lets focus on the Lelouch pairings.

So, since half of all discussions in the romance thread (and possibly other threads) are made up of Kalulu, the supporters all get there fun, but inevitably, every now and then they must deal with a "heretic", so to speak. One who denies that Kalulu exists and that Lelouch and Kallen had nothing, and does not necessarily belong to any certain ship. Eventually, the heretic is talked down and/or "corrected" and life moves on.

But wait, what about the Shirlulus? Are they not dissenters who go against the Church of Kalulu? Why are they not "corrected"? Well, mainly because they don't speak up very much, and also, most of the time, they don't really contest Kalulu. Furthermore, even the most avid of Kalulu fans can't deny that there is some credence to their claims, although they don't ship or support it for the most part. So they figure, "what the hell?" They're not hassling us that much, and we can deal with the occassional Shirlulu discussion. After all, we know the "real truth". So the Kalulus allow this little subsection to be discussed without problem.

But wait, what about the CluClus? Eh, Word of God shot them down, so who cares.

But wait, what about darthfury? ...............what about him? (sorry sorry darthfury I'm just kidding )

So yeah, it simply seems to be a matter of a dominant state trying to maintain its position. They talk it up, get rid of heretics, and allow the occassional Shirlulu discussion. Heck, a Shirlulu may even get away with saying Shirlulu was more canon than Kalulu if they're lucky, but if one of 'em starts going overboard, ooh watch out. So yeah, that seems to be where we're at now.

Well, I've overdramatized this long enough
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Old 2009-04-18, 04:58   Link #4638
bladeofdarkness
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i keep saying this, but the ep 7 scene is MUCH more then "OMG he wants to sex her up"

it shows, among other things, that kallen understands him enough to know he would be in pain and need someone to talk to
cares enough about him that after he hangs up on her she goes looking for him on foot, in tokyo, where she is a wanted criminal
and knows him well enough to accuratly guess his mind frame and predict where he would go

it also shows that lelouch is, at the very least, attracted to kallen, or he wouldnt have tried it
and the arguemnt that he would have tried it on anyone is mute since he spends the beginning of the ep in ashford, surronded by girl who would jump him at a moments notice if he so much as says the word (as ep 12 prove)
and he later spends a while just riding the train and walking the streets, using his geass every which way he wants
he COULD have "asked" any girl on the street for "comfort" but it never came to him to do that
he was ready to turn to drugs before doing that
he only gets the idea after kallen showed up, and even THEN only after she told him she would do what ever he wanted
and all of this is irrelevent since there was a REASON why kallen and no one else was there
thats what the directors wanted

you also see kallen doubting herself before slapping him, showing that while she would want him to kiss her, this isnt it
but she also does her best to HIDE that fact and hide how much lelouch had just hurt her with that stunt
during the entire scene you see that she is slowly starting to cry over what he just did
but she switchs right back to topic about how he is needed as zero and how he has a resposibility to the japanese people and staff and she runs away at the point where she just cant keep the tears in

and the most importent aspect of that scene is the total shift in the relationship between them before and after it
compare lelouch's interaction with kallen in eps 2 and 5 (teasing her, keeping secrets) with how he treats her after this scene
no teasing, no jokes, he explains his plans to her fully and even addreses the matter of diethard and explains to her his role in things
and all this he does with a much greater degree of respect then ever before
by standing up to him and telling him to pull his act together, kallen seems to have earned his respect

thats part of the significance of the scene
not just "OMG, he wants to sex her up"
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Old 2009-04-18, 07:25   Link #4639
yvj
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Spoiler for State of the romance thread speech:
It's widely known that many different kinds of religion existed under a limited degree of freedom of religion in the Mongolian Empire.

The sword of the state is not wielded on trivial pursuits. The wrath of the state is usually launched from a defensive position. Usually

There are things that will not be tolerated however.


Downplaying of Earth Mother Kallen's importance to Sky Father Lelouch (Wording such as camaraderie)
Upgrading of cursed one Gino
Obvious trolling.



Genghis Khan's first revenge would be that on the Jurchens who were driven out of their first capital of Peking, and second capital of Kaifeng, and finally Jurchens were denied a request to surrender.

Of course there is vengeance for past discretion. Which explains that stamp that is quickly placed upon any CluClu reformation. The blood spilled in the past will never be forgotten and in the name of those fallen (banned martyrs) sometimes Kalulu wrath will be swift and vicious.

That's how your over dramatize.
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Old 2009-04-18, 08:50   Link #4640
Kid Ying
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
it also shows that lelouch is, at the very least, attracted to kallen, or he wouldnt have tried it
and the arguemnt that he would have tried it on anyone is mute since he spends the beginning of the ep in ashford, surronded by girl who would jump him at a moments notice if he so much as says the word (as ep 12 prove)
and he later spends a while just riding the train and walking the streets, using his geass every which way he wants
he COULD have "asked" any girl on the street for "comfort" but it never came to him to do that
he was ready to turn to drugs before doing that
he only gets the idea after kallen showed up, and even THEN only after she told him she would do what ever he wanted
and all of this is irrelevent since there was a REASON why kallen and no one else was there
thats what the directors wanted
Ah, c'mon, it's not like he wanted something like this at first. In Ashford, he was thinking about Nunnally, after the announcement of the new Japan Zone, he didn't knew what to do, he just wanted to be alone, when he saw the refrain, he thought "Hum, maybe with this i'll be happy", when Kallen stops him, he tried for her. He just wanted to be happy after Nunnally's announcement. It's nice that Kallen understand him to the point that she knew where he was, but Lelouch making his move is not a big deal for me.

But i agree, that's not relevant at all, it just show that Lelouch got balls after all, haha.
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