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Old 2009-02-08, 07:13   Link #1841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
has he ever teased shierly ?
has he ever teased anyone else ?
ever ?
People have different faces depending on who they are around. All of which are at the same time "true".
They act different around their family, friends, boyfriend/girlfriend etc.
The fact that Lelouch shows most of his teasing-side to Kallen, well that has got to mean something.

Also, enough with this "he would have done it for anyone else!11!" card. Does anyone here believe, that if Shirley or C.C or Milly walked down that road instead of Kallen, Lelouch would ask for sex-comfort? No. Not really.
The sex-proposal was also triggered from what Kallen said, basically obeying what he would command her to. I explained it in one of my above posts, feel no need to alanyze again.
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Old 2009-02-08, 07:13   Link #1842
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Physical attraction was one of the sidelines of this scene. The main purpose, was to show that indeed Lelouch was on his limits.
Still, the fact is, that Kallen was the only girl, that Lelouch initiated a sexual-moment with. Fact. It is not a matter of convincing or not, it is there.
Yes, the scene is certainly there.
But to me, Lelouch initiating a sexual moment wiht someone under those circumstances just doesn't mean anything - not in the romance department.

Quote:
Also, the sexual-teasing is a general theme revolving around Kallen and Lelouch. Since S1. Just sayin'.
Well, the "bordlerine romantic" feelings were there with all the girls, and I really can't imagine Lelouch teasing Shirley or Euphie about sexual stuff. Especially the latter would be... creepy. xD
And since he saw C.C. as an accomplice rather than a woman for most of the time, it's no wonder he didn't sexually tease her.
So... yeah, this can be seen as a plus for Kalulu. But I, personally, just can't see it as something that indicates sexual attraction. It didn't feel like that to me, but maybe that's because I like teasing people too much myself without really meaning anything by it except that I think they're awesome. xD
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Old 2009-02-08, 07:16   Link #1843
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Huh, just something.

Lelouch always saw Kallen as a woman. Evrything in season 1 pointed out toward this fact, from his way to quickly divert his gaze to her when he enters in the shower, through his way to call her "onna" in a sort of superior way during S1, his way to tell "this onna wasn't his girlfriend" to terrorists (I forget the others, I really need to rewatch that -_-)then in R2, his tease about her outfit, his tease about "their hidden relationship" (Lelouch ? Making some sort of naughty joke ? WTF ?) and the culmination of all of that, Turn 7, where he wants her to comfort him as a woman.

CC was firstly to him a sort of alien who become an human in his eyes through the serie; But if Lelouch never had any "hots" for CC that's rightly because he doesn't considers her as a woman in a ...woman way.
Why didn't he tried sexing her Turn 23 of S1 ? Because of that; If he tried to do that with Kallen it's rightly because he sees her as a woman and well, becaus he is physically attracted (you don't try to seep with someone who doesn't attract you at all, at least physically)

I don't think he would have tried this with Shirley, BTW, he clearly wants to protect her frm everything which is bad in him, so him trying to seek comfort from er would be certainly like seek comfort of Nunnally -_- Those girls are on a pedestal for him, and to try something like this would be like ruining this purity.
Kallen is different; She is in there, and her total devotion for him was the thing who gave him the will to try this on her. It was a bad move, away to twist her words in the worse way, but still, if he tried that with her, it was simply because for him she is a woman, and let's be fair, an attractive one.

Now I don't even se how it's still possible to argue about romance for Lulu and CC. It was something else, something as much important as romantic love, but something else. It's official, you can't get more that "Lelouch never yearns for CC to be a lover or a mother figure, not even once"

For Kallen that's actually all the contrary; We got Kallen thinking she would have get her Aishiteru, had Lulu not be this kind, and we got 3 sort of material tellings us that Lelouch didn't wanted to reveal his true feelings, then that Kallen understood Lelouch's true feelings for her when he was stabbed.

So Kallen understood Lulu's feelings and she is stating in her song + Poem this is love ? Well....
1+1= 2....
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Old 2009-02-08, 07:17   Link #1844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Yes, the scene is certainly there.
But to me, Lelouch initiating a sexual moment wiht someone under those circumstances just doesn't mean anything - not in the romance department.
The fact that Lelouch wanted to go chica-bow with her, does not mean the whole thing turned into Allelujah-Marie wuv.
Physical attraction does not equal romantic feelings. It does equal though, that the other party interests you.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Well, the "bordlerine romantic" feelings were there with all the girls, and I really can't imagine Lelouch teasing Shirley or Euphie about sexual stuff. Especially the latter would be... creepy. xD
And since he saw C.C. as an accomplice rather than a woman for most of the time, it's no wonder he didn't sexually tease her.
So... yeah, this can be seen as a plus for Kalulu. But I, personally, just can't see it as something that indicates sexual attraction. It didn't feel like that to me, but maybe that's because I like teasing people too much myself without really meaning anything by it except that I think they're awesome. xD
Why are you brining Euphie in this debate? Lelouch had no romantic feelins about her. Leave the kids-crushes-past behind. Bad example.

To the point, Lelouch is not the "lover-boy" that goes around giggling with girls. {aka Gino} However, Kallen for some reason brings this out to him. His "tease you now, cause i am amused" side. Wonder what does this mean.
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Old 2009-02-08, 07:26   Link #1845
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
The fact that Lelouch wanted to go chica-bow with her, does not mean the whole thing turned into Allelujah-Marie wuv.
Physical attraction does not equal romantic feelings. It does equal though, that the other party interests you.
I agree with that.

Quote:
Why are you brining Euphie in this debate? Lelouch had no romantic feelins about her. Leave the kids-crushes-past behind. Bad example.
I always considered Lelouch's feelings for Euphie a bit "borderline romantic", too, but it was really just an example.
We can focus on Shirley instead.

Quote:
To the point, Lelouch is not the "lover-boy" that goes around giggling with girls. {aka Gino} However, Kallen for some reason brings this out to him. His "tease you now, cause i am amused" side. Wonder what does this mean.
That if he'd gotten together with Shirley, their relationship woul have been platonic, and with Kallen, they might very well have had sex?
I don't know, and I won't lose any sleep over it, because we'll never know for sure, and sexual attraction isn't important enough to me to muse about it under those circumstances.
If people want to see it as a plus for Kalulu, though, I can at least see the logic in that.
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Old 2009-02-08, 07:42   Link #1846
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I agree with that.
You did not agree before, when i pretty much said the same thing, but all of a sudden when i move away the word "romance" you do. Alright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I always considered Lelouch's feelings for Euphie a bit "borderline romantic", too, but it was really just an example.
We can focus on Shirley instead.
Lelouch just had a kid-crush on her. He did love her though, because she had a good heart and she was a great person. Nothing romantic about that, let us not meddle things more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
That if he'd gotten together with Shirley, their relationship woul have been platonic, and with Kallen, they might very well have had sex?
I don't know, and I won't lose any sleep over it, because we'll never know for sure, and sexual attraction isn't important enough to me to muse about it under those circumstances.
If people want to see it as a plus for Kalulu, though, I can at least see the logic in that.
Problem is, we can't go with "ifs" and speculation. Within the show, whenever something happened between Lelouch and Shirley, it always ended up with Shirley hurt/memories out/killed. It was no wonder, that Lelouch did want to keep her away. She was a valuable friend to him, that at some point might have had romantic feelings for, but Zero persona does not help at all.

And this is why i once said, that the most compatible girl for Lelouch, is Kallen. And we all saw what happened in R2, when they spent a lot of time together and her knowing who Zero really is. Feelings. Developing, evolving, bonding, do i need to go all over it again?
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Old 2009-02-08, 07:59   Link #1847
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You did not agree before, when i pretty much said the same thing, but all of a sudden when i move away the word "romance" you do. Alright.
Hu?
To me, it looks like you said two completely different things there, the second being that sexual attraction isn't the same as love even though it shows "interest", and I agree with that.
And really, I din't even disagree with you before. I merely added my personal opinion on something.

Quote:
Lelouch just had a kid-crush on her. He did love her though, because she had a good heart and she was a great person. Nothing romantic about that, let us not meddle things more.
"Love" would be too strong a word, yes.
But if I see something vaguely borderline romantic there, then you'll have trouble proving me wrong, so... let's leave it at that.
I'm not saying Euphie was on the same level in the "possible love interest" thing as Shirley or Kallen.

Quote:
Problem is, we can't go with "ifs" and speculation. Within the show, whenever something happened between Lelouch and Shirley, it always ended up with Shirley hurt/memories out/killed. It was no wonder, that Lelouch did want to keep her away. She was a valuable friend to him, that at some point might have had romantic feelings for, but Zero persona does not help at all.

And this is why i once said, that the most compatible girl for Lelouch, is Kallen. And we all saw what happened in R2, when they spent a lot of time together and her knowing who Zero really is. Feelings. Developing, evolving, bonding, do i need to go all over it again?
No, because it won't get us anywhere.
I don't think Kalulu is more probable/fitting than ShirleyxLelouch. If we go into the circumstances, then Lelouch's possible romantic feelings for Shirley never had a future, yes, but with Kallen, it's the other way around.
Lelouch was never meant to live happily ever after, and the more the show progressed, the clearer it became. It was Kallen who got the romantic development in R2, not Lelouch.
Then again, maybe I'm getting too specific here, because if we say circumstances are that relevant, then it's the same for all three of them. First Lelouch was Zero and therefore out of reach for Shirley, and then he chose Zero Requiem and was equally out of reach for Kallen - just like Shirley and Kallen were out of reach for him.
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:01   Link #1848
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when sheirly (who is beyond clearly in love with lelouch) wants him to comfort her in season 1
its clear that its becouse she wants HIM to comfort her
why can the same never hold true for ep 7 and its always he would have jumped rolo even (i doubt sheirly would have turned to anyone else)

and its noted that when rolo comes right up to him he is practicly coming on to him in the same way that lelouch came on to kalllen
this is the only time where rolo acts like that (out right coming on to him)
and i rather think its becouse he saw lelouch trying to kiss kallen and figured that its the kind of comfort lelouch wants at the moment
but its not like something happens between them

and there is a point to be made that kallen never offered to "comfort him"
she said she'll do what ever he wants her to in order to help get nunnaly back (even naming methods, get in a knightmare, act as bait)
she never ever suggested that she would be willing to kiss him (she just had a rather angry outbreak at him after all)
and the first thing that LELOUCH comes up with in the context of "do anything" is to snoo snoo
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:01   Link #1849
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
And we all saw what happened in R2, when they spent a lot of time together and her knowing who Zero really is. Feelings. Developing, evolving, bonding, bedding do i need to go all over it again?
Would have they not been interrupt every time, I think this would have happened too :P

Oh and the staff said romance devellopmnt for Lelouch would occur in R2.
No for Kallen. Just her own devellopment who become a romantic devellopment.
So yeah, there was romantic devellopment for Lulu.
Cause in the show itself, Lulu is everything but asexual. seriously.
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:06   Link #1850
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Would have they not been interrupt every time, I think this would have happened too :P
roflpalm x 3498
Well played, well played. |DD;

@Nogitsune :: Why are you trying to have the "ideal" when it comes to Lelouch's possible romance? No one said, that he would go down happily with any of the girls. It was not supposed to be like this.
The argument is, whom he loved most, when it comes to romance department.
And in R2, when it comes to Kallen, yes, the core of her development is romance and understanding Lelouch's feelings.
But it is not like she is developing alone, Lelouch's own actions towards her throughout the second season, "gives" a +++ for her development to move on and on. It is more of two-sided, rather than one.

Even on her poem, while all the other poems are more personal and towards to Lelouch, there is Lelouch-trace to hers. What can i say? Blame the staff, for always sneaking a Lulu somewhere when Kallen is being mentioned.
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:06   Link #1851
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
when sheirly (who is beyond clearly in love with lelouch) wants him to comfort her in season 1
its clear that its becouse she wants HIM to comfort her
why can the same never hold true for ep 7 and its always he would have jumped rolo even (i doubt sheirly would have turned to anyone else)
Because Lelouch and Shirley are two completely different people, and because Shirley always had eyes only for Lelouch. But I won't go into this, because this two cases seem so completely different to me that I don't see the point.
I don't disagree with the rest of you posting, though... or at leat, I think so, because I'm not sure if I got it right.



Edit:
@sky:
I'm not going for the "ideal" here.
But if Shiley's love didn't have a future because of the circumstances, then the same is true for Kallen.
That's all I'm saying.
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:10   Link #1852
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what do you mean you think you didnt get it ?
which part ?
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:11   Link #1853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post


Edit:
@sky:
I'm not going for the "ideal" here.
But if Shiley's love didn't have a future because of the circumstances, then the same is true for Kallen.
That's all I'm saying.
That is irrelevant. I argued about development, not necessarily "ends."

Shirlulu's development pretty much ended when he erased her memories in S1.
Kalulu's development was set forth a bit from Season 1 and in R2, the horses just kept on running and running.
It's about evolving, not future-marriage.
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:18   Link #1854
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what do you mean you think you didnt get it ?
which part ?
The meaning of the (more or less) facts you stated.
Just like with the symbolism last time (which I still don't get), I know what you wrote, but not what your point was.


Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
That is irrelevant. I argued about development, not necessarily "ends."

Shirlulu's development pretty much ended when he erased her memories in S1.
Kalulu's development was set forth a bit from Season 1 and in R2, the horses just kept on running and running.
It's about evolving, not future-marriage.
Both times Lelouch lost Shirley, he learned something from her. And even inbetween, she helped him realize things - like with the "power of the heart" business. That isn't romance, exactly, but it certainly counts for something.
Of course the development of their relationship ended after Shirley's death, but that simply doesn't change anything for me.
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:20   Link #1855
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it would be very hard to to make a world where shierly and lelouch could have a future with in the context of the actual show
even if he hadnt erased her memory he would have tried to keep her out of his real life (he would have become ZERO even without the geass)

creating a world where kallen and lelouch have a chance at a real future is infinitly easy
in ep 18 when kallen fires the energy disc at suzaku
it his the torso of the lanceot instead of just the hadron blaster (she could have easily made that shot from a practical stand point)
the lancelot goes up without having fired the nuke
nunnaly gets delivered to lelouch
the battle doesnt stop right there and the OOBK wins (they do have the SEITEN and two of the KOR are down (toudo is leading an attack on the avalon)
shnizel doesnt get the chance tell them about the geass (and show proof)
lelouch isnt in a coma and is able to face the accusations (and shnizel isnt there to lay the trap)
japan gets freed (that was the whole point of the battle)
they attack the emperor on kaminejima (they already know he is there)

in short
the only thing that seperats kallen and lelouch from a happy ending is about 2 meter of bad aim
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:22   Link #1856
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post

Both times Lelouch lost Shirley, he learned something from her. And even inbetween, she helped him realize things - like with the "power of the heart" business. Maybe this isn't romance, exactly, but it certainly counts for something.
Of course the development of their relationship ended after Shirley's death, but that simply doesn't change anything for me.

Shirley did have an impact on Lelouch's life. Once, to make him realize that the path of carnage he chose, affects his important people as well, and it is a difficult path and the other, made him realize simple things like the one you mentioned.

However, the point is, that Shirlulu had weird things for them going on {Mao, her father's death blah blah} that never allowed them to explore their feelings. Or better, for Lelouch to explore his feelings.
Most of the times, in R2 more, they have sweet scenes and stuff, but seems it is more "girl in love, guy's not much into it, but values her as an important friend."
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:36   Link #1857
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
it would be very hard to to make a world where shierly and lelouch could have a future with in the context of the actual show
even if he hadnt erased her memory he would have tried to keep her out of his real life (he would have become ZERO even without the geass)

creating a world where kallen and lelouch have a chance at a real future is infinitly easy
in ep 18 when kallen fires the energy disc at suzaku
it his the torso of the lanceot instead of just the hadron blaster (she could have easily made that shot from a practical stand point)
the lancelot goes up without having fired the nuke
nunnaly gets delivered to lelouch
the battle doesnt stop right there and the OOBK wins (they do have the SEITEN and two of the KOR are down (toudo is leading an attack on the avalon)
shnizel doesnt get the chance tell them about the geass (and show proof)
lelouch isnt in a coma and is able to face the accusations (and shnizel isnt there to lay the trap)
japan gets freed (that was the whole point of the battle)
they attack the emperor on kaminejima (they already know he is there)

in short
the only thing that seperats kallen and lelouch from a happy ending is about 2 meter of bad aim
There was still Lelouch's hatred for his father and the peaceful world he wanted to create for his sister, as well as the "atonement" he would have sought sooner or later.
Even if some things had gone differently in R2, I can't see Lelouch and Kallen having a futute together.
The easiest thing to change in the series would, in my opinion, be the outcome of the invasion of Japan. Lelouch could have been found and brought back to Britannia, and maybe, just maybe, he would have realized that quite a few of his siblings weren't his enemies. Or Suzaku could have stayed with him and Nunally somehow.
If that had happened, then Lelouch might have overcome some of his issues, and then he would have been as likely to get together with Shirley as with Kallen (well, if he'd still become Zero, which is quite probable).

Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post

Shirley did have an impact on Lelouch's life. Once, to make him realize that the path of carnage he chose, affects his important people as well, and it is a difficult path and the other, made him realize simple things like the one you mentioned.

However, the point is, that Shirlulu had weird things for them going on {Mao, her father's death blah blah} that never allowed them to explore their feelings. Or better, for Lelouch to explore his feelings.
Most of the times, in R2 more, they have sweet scenes and stuff, but seems it is more "girl in love, guy's not much into it, but values her as an important friend."
When I watched the anime, Shirlulu seemed more "canon" to me than Kalulu. After thinking about it a bit and the "mutual kiss" thing, I came to the conclusion that they were probably on the same level, even though I'd lean more towards Shirlulu because I can't help but feel that way.
In the end, I think this is something the viewers can only decide for themselves.
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:41   Link #1858
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like i said
he would have attacked the emperor in kaminejima (why wouldnt they, hes the emperor)
and by taking over japan he would have turned the tied of the war and won it in the end (kaguya and bismark both said that japan was the key)
the PEACEFUL WORLD is the result of his victory over britannia
and he didnt feel the need to atone until ZERO-R (suzaku's a bad influance )

how would sending him back to britannia to be used as a political pawn be a good reslut for him (he would still hate his father and the britannia system where the strong destroy the weak)
and he would never have even MET either girl
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:50   Link #1859
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like i said
he would have attacked the emperor in kaminejima (why wouldnt they, hes the emperor)
and by taking over japan he would have turned the tied of the war and won it in the end (kaguya and bismark both said that japan was the key)
the PEACEFUL WORLD is the result of his victory over britannia
and he didnt feel the need to atone until ZERO-R (suzaku's a bad influance )
I don't think things could ever have gone that smoothly.
Lelouch has too many issues and too much bad luck... oh, and already too many enemies. And it's not as if Suzaku would just have disappeared.
But in the end, there's no point in pondering those what-ifs. Lelouch could as well have discovered that the gun wasn't loaded when he wanted to shoot Clovis, and they could have had some awesome brotherly bonding time. xD

Quote:
how would sending him back to britannia to be used as a political pawn be a good reslut for him (he would still hate his father and the britannia system where the strong destroy the weak)
and he would never have even MET either girl
Lelouch could still have gone to Ashfords for schooling... or something like that.
I'm not saying that being used as a political pawn would have been good for him. But realizing that even in the family he hates so much he has some allies and people who care for him might have made a difference.
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Old 2009-02-08, 08:50   Link #1860
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