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Old 2008-12-29, 01:48   Link #61
Glacial
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
also Glacial, Grimmjow is fast, much faster than Ichigo expected which is why when he ran away he didn't realize it would take less than a few seconds for him to appear again, Ulquiorra is fast, he is strong, smart and calculating IMO he is more like an assassin of LN, also I can accept that he was tired during their last encounter so it is only natural for him to be weaker but he was fully healed when he faced Grimmjow and there he went all out so for him to be able to hold his own this good something must of happened.
Without meaning to offend, I think Ulquiorra is being overestimated. He's only the 4th, and as I said before, I think it's logical that Grimmjow was a bad match-up for Ichigo anyways, so gauging his abilities purely based on that is jumping the gun :P

(for example, just because Kenpachi beat Nnoitra doesn't mean he could've beaten Szayel or Zommari, same for Byakuya being able to beat Szayel, etc.)

Also, Ichigo's performance right now is being overestimated. Ulquiorra doesn't have a scratch, and Ichigo is bleeding and bruised. For the first time ever (except vs. his hollow), Getsuga got sliced in half like nothing. That's Ichigo's "trump card," so to speak, ignoring the mask. If he doesn't learn something new at least, I'm calling bullshit, sure, but the fight is far too early to be criticizing

I'm eagerly awaiting this fight, though, because the stakes are high and both parties have been set up quite well.

Finally, I respectfully disagree that Ulquiorra is like any assassin, because I've never known an assassin to always let his opponents make the first strike.

Last edited by Glacial; 2008-12-29 at 02:02.
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Old 2008-12-29, 05:44   Link #62
Ilija
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Originally Posted by Glacial View Post
Without meaning to offend, I think Ulquiorra is being overestimated. He's only the 4th, and as I said before, I think it's logical that Grimmjow was a bad match-up for Ichigo anyways, so gauging his abilities purely based on that is jumping the gun :P

(for example, just because Kenpachi beat Nnoitra doesn't mean he could've beaten Szayel or Zommari, same for Byakuya being able to beat Szayel, etc.)

Also, Ichigo's performance right now is being overestimated. Ulquiorra doesn't have a scratch, and Ichigo is bleeding and bruised. For the first time ever (except vs. his hollow), Getsuga got sliced in half like nothing. That's Ichigo's "trump card," so to speak, ignoring the mask. If he doesn't learn something new at least, I'm calling bullshit, sure, but the fight is far too early to be criticizing

I'm eagerly awaiting this fight, though, because the stakes are high and both parties have been set up quite well.

Finally, I respectfully disagree that Ulquiorra is like any assassin, because I've never known an assassin to always let his opponents make the first strike.
Grimmjow was the perfect match-up for Ichigo. They're both fast and close-range fighters, and a close-range fighter always finds it difficult against a long-range fighter. They need to be able to get close to their opponent.

As for Ulquiorra being an assassin, I think it's believable. After all, he always surprises his 'opponent' by appeariing out of nowhere. He has the skills to be an assassin, he just prefers to own people instead (check ep 162 for full details ).
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Old 2008-12-29, 05:49   Link #63
ChojinLocke
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It's not only about powerups or how strong people are. Yes, Ulquiora is stronger than Ichigo but that does not automatically mean that he will defeat Ichigo. What decides a battle outcome is resolve as someone else put it yet this is also true for the Arrancar side. Why did Ichigo have a hard time against Grimmjow? He was weaker and his resolve was not strong enough until the final attack (if you wish to call that plothole then you should quit reading this manga altogether because that is its basic philosophical core - resolve) in which he simply took a powerup and beat Grimmjow. Grimmjow had a strong resolve too - a resolve to beat Ichigo which made him stronger than he was as well. Ulquiora doesnt have any kind of such resolve and is in fact a cold robotic destruction soldier, which in pure terms makes him weaker than he could have been.

In this fight Ichigo's resolve is already sharp as it gets, he is healed so he is basically starting at the power level he was after beating Grimmjow which should be on par with Espada < 3. Since he is the main character and supposedly the one who will become more powerful than them all it isnt all too hard to accept that he is fighting Ulquiora on less than equal footing yet still manageable. It might be possible we see a new power from Ichigo as well ala Zangetsu time stop.

Fights are seldomly decided by power alone in Bleach. Resolve is more important. Read this if you are too bored to read the above.
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Old 2008-12-29, 11:04   Link #64
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Originally Posted by ChojinLocke View Post
It's not only about powerups or how strong people are. Yes, Ulquiora is stronger than Ichigo but that does not automatically mean that he will defeat Ichigo. What decides a battle outcome is resolve as someone else put it yet this is also true for the Arrancar side. Why did Ichigo have a hard time against Grimmjow? He was weaker and his resolve was not strong enough until the final attack (if you wish to call that plothole then you should quit reading this manga altogether because that is its basic philosophical core - resolve) in which he simply took a powerup and beat Grimmjow. Grimmjow had a strong resolve too - a resolve to beat Ichigo which made him stronger than he was as well. Ulquiora doesnt have any kind of such resolve and is in fact a cold robotic destruction soldier, which in pure terms makes him weaker than he could have been.
For the reason Ulquiorra has no resolve right now if he starts to be beaten by Ichigo I think he will get his own resolve and then him and Ichigo's battle will be a battle of resolves like all his other battles (Dordonii, Renji, Byakuya, Grimmjow)
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Old 2008-12-29, 12:38   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Amirali View Post
I find it interesting that Ichigo went Vaizard almost right away against Grimmjow, but is sticking to bankai against Ulquiorra.
...which doesn't make since, as Ichigo stated in his fight against Dordonni that he didn't want to keep using his bankai/visored powers on weaker opponents since he wouldn't get anywhere when battling stronger opponents further down the road...Yes, Dordonni was down there on the list, but in relative terms, so is Grimmjow to Ulquiorra, where Ichigo went bankai/visored right off the bat in his final bout with Grimmjow but is only going bankai thus far with Ulquiorra...If Ulquiorra is two ranks above Grimmjow, wouldn't now more than any other time thus far in Hueco Mundo be a damn good justified time to use bankai/visored powers?

Oh, wait, Ichigo has to demonstrate how he's leveled up in just one fight before busting out the cheat codes...
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Old 2008-12-29, 16:51   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Amirali View Post
I find it interesting that Ichigo went Vaizard almost right away against Grimmjow, but is sticking to bankai against Ulquiorra.
Ichigo only went to the mask because the Gran Rey Cero was heading for Orihime.
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Old 2008-12-29, 22:32   Link #67
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Come to think of it, even against Dordonni he only pulled out the mask after Nel was hurt. We could construct strategic arguments about waiting for the perfect opportunity in his fighhts, but it's probably as simple as him disliking using the hollow powers till forced to do so.
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Old 2008-12-29, 23:29   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Amirali View Post
Come to think of it, even against Dordonni he only pulled out the mask after Nel was hurt. We could construct strategic arguments about waiting for the perfect opportunity in his fighhts, but it's probably as simple as him disliking using the hollow powers till forced to do so.
And with Orihime sitting on the sidelines waiting to be a target, I'm sure that's what will allow Ichigo to unlock the God Mode cheat...
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Old 2008-12-30, 00:03   Link #69
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May I ask a question? Why the confusion over Ichigo's power-ups? It's been established he has the ability to improve with each fight. That he accomplishes in days what it takes others longer to achieve.

Twice Ulq remarked on his powers. The first time when he admitted Ichigo strength when stable was greater than his. The second he was amazed during the first confrontation in HM.
He's untrained. His lack of control over the hollow is what interfered with him the first time. Why then is it hard to believe he could beat him now? I just don't understand it...



I think Ulq is just playing mind games regarding Orihime. He does that...Orihiime being a great example of it.
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Old 2008-12-30, 01:17   Link #70
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Originally Posted by hakisak View Post

Twice Ulq remarked on his powers. The first time when he admitted Ichigo strength when stable was greater than his.

Sigh.
This is the dialog from that fight. [from readbleach.com]
Spoiler for dialog:



Ulq said Ichigo's power is higher than his when its unstable.
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Old 2008-12-30, 01:37   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Hav0kkx View Post
Sigh.
This is the dialog from that fight. [from readbleach.com]
Spoiler for dialog:



Ulq said Ichigo's power is higher than his when its unstable.
Riiiiiiiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhtttt

if it's higher than his when it's unstable. Then should there be a question of how Ichigo can pull out a win now?
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Old 2008-12-30, 09:42   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Glacial View Post
For the first time ever (except vs. his hollow), Getsuga got sliced in half like nothing. That's Ichigo's "trump card," so to speak, ignoring the mask. If he doesn't learn something new at least, I'm calling bullshit, sure, but the fight is far too early to be criticizing
Getsuga Tenshou never really successfully stopped an opponent. It's a powerful move, but like cero, it's never been the deciding factor in a battle. Getsuga has been blocked plenty of times even before Ulq and Ichigo fought. Ichigo does need a new technique, I'd be surprised if he gained a new move during this battle though...


Quote:
Originally Posted by hakisak
Riiiiiiiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhtttt

if it's higher than his when it's unstable. Then should there be a question of how Ichigo can pull out a win now?
The idea is that Ichigo normally couldn't fight with his full potential even when he was in bankai. He was at his strongest when his hollow side took over but Ichigo would instinctually try to resist, causing his powers to grow unstable. Now that Ichigo is learning to use his vizard power, he's closer to being able to use his full power without losing control to the hollow which means his powers will remain stable. But initially he couldn't do that.
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Old 2008-12-30, 10:08   Link #73
hakisak
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The idea is that Ichigo normally couldn't fight with his full potential even when he was in bankai. He was at his strongest when his hollow side took over but Ichigo would instinctually try to resist, causing his powers to grow unstable. Now that Ichigo is learning to use his vizard power, he's closer to being able to use his full power without losing control to the hollow which means his powers will remain stable. But initially he couldn't do that.
I got that... That's why I am saying...If it was higher when it was unstable. Now he's in control why are users saying "HOW ARE ICHIGO GETTING THESE POWER-UPS?! " Ichigo keep up with Ulquiorra" *Snicker*

I just don't understand when Kubo has shown why since the beginning. Just boggles the mind...
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Old 2008-12-30, 11:30   Link #74
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Kurosaki kun is getting stronger because he's fighting for something orihime or his friends I don't know, but before he was weak because he thought all his friends had died, and now that they're safe and supporting him he's in his "highest" state.

Why are people debating this so much? It's not that complicated, and the bleach verse people are known to pull power ups right out of there ass. Maybe even Orihime too.
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Old 2008-12-30, 12:03   Link #75
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People are wondering how Ichigo can power up in such a short matter of time. Well, I think its not a matter of powering up so much as it is getting in touch with the spiritual energy hes had all along. I don't believe Ichigo has ever reached his full potential and that the only way he could tap into his power is through battle experience and determination. There was evidence behind that during his training for the Soul society arc. By that time, Ichigo wasn't taught any specific skills, the only thing he gained out of that training was battle experience. I assume the shop owner that trained him figured his spiritual energy will gradually flow naturally as he gains more experience. This pattern really isn't anything new if you look back. Even his training to obtain bankai was nothing more than a sword fight against his Zanpakuto. To sum up what I'm saying, the only training Ichigo really requires is fighting experience so that he can obtain more of his enormous spriitual energy. So yeah, if you look at it that way Ichigo is similar to Saiyans. However, the main difference is that he's not gaining strength so much as hes tapping into the power that he already possess.

If you ask me, its a very convenient plot hax, but its at least better than gaining strength without any experience or training ( I think they call it "instant GAR"). No matter how much experience Ichigo gains, you always have to take into account the fact that hes still human. Being human, there aren't many ways for him to gain such insane amounts of strength in such a short period of time. With that in mind, this is a hax I'm willing to accept (Only for Ichigo though, since hes a special case).
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Last edited by War_Lord; 2008-12-30 at 12:34.
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Old 2008-12-30, 12:30   Link #76
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I have nothing against it, if it takes him days to advance... but now his progress is even faster with even less time.
It has only been a few hours since they entered HM, and he is constantly powering up.
Agreed, though i'd also add that previously Ichigo actually when through some kind of power up/unlocking phase before jumping up to the next level... i mean, we could say he was at VC level when he first entered SS and fought through Ikkaku and then Renji... When he reached Kenpachi he got completely thrashed, BUT then had a face off with Zangetsu and unlocked the TRUE power of his Shikai which he was not using much at all before... this power up brougt him up to captain level... after that, he went through his Bankai training and took another step furthar to being able to fight against a captain with Bankai... however at this point he was weak enough that he got thrashed by Grimjow... he then goes through vizard training and unlocks yet another power up and brings himself to Grimjow's level

What we see now is not only did Ichigo jump up even faster but he skips going through any kind of powering up/unlocking phase... instead of getting more power through those power ups, he's now just getting more strength whenever the plot says he needs it... and that's what we call plotkai
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Old 2008-12-30, 14:26   Link #77
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Agreed, though i'd also add that previously Ichigo actually when through some kind of power up/unlocking phase before jumping up to the next level... i mean, we could say he was at VC level when he first entered SS and fought through Ikkaku and then Renji... When he reached Kenpachi he got completely thrashed, BUT then had a face off with Zangetsu and unlocked the TRUE power of his Shikai which he was not using much at all before...
Quote:
...What we see now is not only did Ichigo jump up even faster but he skips going through any kind of powering up/unlocking phase... instead of getting more power through those power ups, he's now just getting more strength whenever the plot says he needs it... and that's what we call plotkai
Even before he received talk from Zangetsu, Ichigo (mid-battle) had powered up to the point where he could seriously cut Kenpachi whereas a few moments before that he would injure himself just trying to land a hit. Not to mention the first time he fought Renji, he went from being completely outdone by Renji to owning him in a single blow *snaps fingers* just like that.

Yeah, the bullsh**t powerups aren't really anything new and if you consider what's happening now plot-kai, then I would definitely say those were even more blatant instances. However I admit those power-ups were a little easier to swallow back then because Ichigo still came off as a rookie whose was largely unaware of his powers worked. Now that he's more seasoned, it's not as easy to accept that he's still just becoming accustomed to his powers.

But Ichigo has only improved enough to a point where he isn't being immediately destroyed by Ulq (who frankly, still doesn't even seem to be fighting that seriously yet). Despite that, he's still losing. So as far as power-ups go, it's not too unbelievable. Things will probably even out when Ichigo puts on the mask, but it's still too early to tell if even that will be enough
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Old 2008-12-30, 16:32   Link #78
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This chapter is translated now.


[well, at readbleach anyways]
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Old 2008-12-30, 16:56   Link #79
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Originally Posted by MidnightViper88 View Post

Oh, wait, Ichigo has to demonstrate how he's leveled up in just one fight before busting out the cheat codes...
don't no one tell him it's up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, a, b, start
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Old 2008-12-30, 17:02   Link #80
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Ulq keeps using Inoue to piss Ichigo off... making him think about what Grimmjow said too. Makes me wonder if Aizen did something to her that we dont know of.
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