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Old 2009-01-10, 00:04   Link #241
killer3000ad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Just so you know that is just one of many articles on a similar subject regarding how much suffering the Palestinian people go through. I don't know if you got main point of the article, but, it is the suffering of the people there because of Israel's policies, even during ceasefire, when it is the time for Israel to make the lives of the ones suffering better, so that they can use that to extend the ceasefire in a more easier way. Those are not something you can even discuss about. That is the people's lives there, you can only hide it (as happening in US media) or show it (as happening elsewhere).

And, it doesn't matter what the conditions were during the ceasefire. The tunnels are nothing new, and you can do something about it once you know the location, if the ceasefire ends and does not extend. No Israeli was hurt until that time, and for a country wanting to continue the peace, they could have shown more patience. On the opposite, to me it looks like, they were eager for Hamas to break the negotiations so that they can start a massive attack. An excuse is what they needed, and that is what they got. And, that is how it looks from a third country.
The point of David Morrison's article is to blame everything on Israel. Look at the wording of it. He doesn't mention that Palestinians killed in the 4th of Nov 08 raid were Hamas fighters, or that they were building another tunnel under the security barrier to raid Israel. In paragraph 7 he said the raid was unprovoked. hello? tunnel going under the fence into your backyard, they've done this before in 2006 and IDF personnel were killed and young corporal Gilat Shalit was kidnapped and is still rotting in a cell in Gaza. No Israeli was hurt until that time? (as in during the ceasefire) Ok so if a guy is walking around carrying a gun on the street and waving it around but hasn't fired, the cops should do nothing cause no one was hurt yet? If guys in masks and carrying guns are waiting outside a bank, the cops should not stop them since no one has been hurt?

And Israel did show tremendous patience. After Hamas started rocketing Israel, the IDF did not reply as they wanted the ceasefire to continue. For months Israel did nothing as rockets fell on Israeli homes. The Israeli foreign minister went to Egpyt to try and get them to convince Hamas to quit with the rockets to no avail-> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7799593.stm From the looks of it, it was Hamas that couldn't wait for the ceasefire to break.

Also, the only Palestinians suffering are the ones in Gaza. Have you ever thought about the West Bank? It's peaceful and there's no IDF operation there. Why? Cause Hamas isn't there launching rockets into Israel.
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Last edited by killer3000ad; 2009-01-10 at 00:31.
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Old 2009-01-10, 00:12   Link #242
yezhanquan
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On the issue of the Gaza Strip, I personally do not think that a Palestine state should include both the strip and the West Bank. A country split in two at its birth is hardly a good thing.

It would be hard to do this, but Israel may have to re-occupy the strip, and drive the 1.5 million++ Palestinians to the West Bank. The strip, as I said before, is too small to be on its own, and its government is hostile to Israel.
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Old 2009-01-10, 00:20   Link #243
Urzu 7
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The civilians dying in this mess is terrible, yes. And that many of them are child is terrible, yes. And that people are getting angry at Israel for that...well...

The poster Bladeofdarkness has been bringing up some important things. I've heard and read several times about certain Hamas tactics. They are using civilians as human shields and they are putting prime targets (rocket launchers, weapon stockpiles) in civilian areas. As he said, in people's back yards and such. Hamas is creating the conditions in which civilians are easy targets.

Why is Irael attacking? Hamas threatens their national security by launching rockets into their country. So after much time of restraint and trying to work things out a better way, they use military force. 'Collateral damage' occurs. Yes, it is terrible. But people need to realize that Hamas intended the collateral damage - children or otherwise - to be very bad. They put what would be prime targets for Israel (targets Israel would strike) right in civilian areas in case Israel would ever use such military force as they are today. Why would they do such a horrible thing? Because they want the casualties! When people are saying in disgust "The Israelis killed many children in the attacks", that is what they are looking for. Israel is using force; Hamas ensured civilian casualties would be maximized. They want this to then vilify the Israeli people. Think of how this serves those that are against Israel. Think of how Al Jazeera is now taking this and propagating how terrible Israel is for "murdering hundreds of Arab children". The people in Hamas don't value human life to ensure this will happen. And then there is the fact they are using people as shields.

The point is, if you are mad that Israel has killed many civilians and many children, don't think it is just all their fault. This military action has been called upon after they have been provoked very much, and then the Hamas did what they could to ensure civilian casualties would be high due to collateral damage.

This isn't a black and white issue, and Israel isn't all innocent and 'the good guy' in this (although it is hard to blame them for wanting to do something about rocket strikes). There are many things to discuss in this issue, and many have discussed much about said things in this thread. I just wanted to point out that the high civilian casualties isn't something to solely blame on Israel; at least not entirely.
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Old 2009-01-10, 03:23   Link #244
Shadow Kira01
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From the consideration of your perspective on the military crisis in Gaza, I assume that you have family and friend ties with Israel and I also am well aware that people of Israel are supportive of their country and its actions, whether it be right or wrong. I also understand that you are very emotional about the current crisis in which your country is under attacked by rockets and is very angry but Israel isn't doing the right thing. Anyways...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
'd imagine that if we had 250+ dead Israeli children to 50 or so dead Palestinian children that you'd be pro-Israel, instead? Honestly, the death count should not matter. The fact is that innocent Palestinians are dying, and that is a tragedy, but the militant Palestinians are trying to ensure that innocent Israelis are dead, and that is no less a tragedy. How you can be so selective about which side to call unjust is beyond me.
Ridiculous! Whether it be pro-Israel or pro-Hamas, that isn't even the point here. I am pro-neither side. Just because I feel that the children in Gaza died were innocent doesn't mean that I am taking the side of Israel's enemy, because that is a very groundless assumption. Certainly, it is true that Israel now considers anybody or any nation that is not supportive of their military actions in Gaza as "enemies", but that only proves that they are already in the wrong direction without even realizing it.

Quote:
Do you know why those innocent Palestinians are dying? It's because Hamas is firing their rockets from the tops of apartments and homes. You can't honestly tell me that you think Hamas doesn't realize that the location that they fire a rocket from won't come under attack almost immediately after the rocket starts flying. If Hamas is going to fire any rockets at all, why don't they do it from a deserted or uninhabited area? I'll tell you why: if they didn't, then people like you wouldn't have any sympathy for them, and they'd be picked out for being radicals with a genocidal agenda. If nobody had any sympathy for them then who would want to join their ranks? What would prevent foreign nations from coming to Israel's aid against them?
True, the Hamas chose the location to fire the rockets in a crowd of civilians, especially children because they probably believed that the Israeli government are on the side of justice and they would never counter-attack targetting a crowd of people in which it consists of mainly civilians and among the civilians are children. Unfortunately, the Hamas had made a mistake and involved the lives of innocent civilians, because Israel has no feelings for the children of Palestinians. Thus, they counterattacked the Hamas as soon as they were hit by their rockets.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong - Israel is of course at least partly to blame for firing the weapons in the first place. However Israel does not have a weapon so advanced that they can respond to the attacks with such precision that bystanders to that area will not be impacted. Not responding is not an option. I've detailed the reasons before, but the big, main reason that is not up for debate is that the Israeli people would be outraged at their government.
I am not saying that Israel is to be blamed for their current actions in Gaza, but their current direction is wrong and they should stop what they are doing immediately. First of all, if you do not have the accuracy to take down enemies, you shouldn't even attempt to do so in the first place. Israel should first calm down and make plans as to who their enemies truly are and what people they have been slaughtering for the past 2 weeks. Israel's enemies are the Hamas, but the majority of the victims who suffered under the hands of the Israeli military are Palestinian civilians, in which over one third are children. Is Israel attacking the right people here? Aren't their current military actions very questionable? True, they have killed many Hamas units, but the number of their enemies don't make up the current 760 death toll, it probably makes up about 1% of the total number of casualties and wounded. Unjust!

Quote:
I don't know why you're so concerned only about the children here; nobody deserves to die. This conflict did not just start over Christmas, this has been going on for years. Even before rockets launched into Israel was the new trend, Israel was suffering suicide bombings seemingly at least every other week. And no, the suicide bombers were not targeting the Israeli government or military as a form of protest, they were targeting innocent Israeli civilians. Israel knows that they're up against radical elements that want to destroy Israel entirely. How do you form a cease-fire and negotiate with something like that? Israel is not "out to kill" - they're acting in self-defense in such a manner that is really the only method that is available to them.
Not exactly. I am concerned about the safety of the children there, because they are not part of the military conflict. You cannot say that nobody involved in the current military crisis don't deserve death. The Hamas who targetted civilian homes in Southern Israel should be executed for murder. The Israeli soldiers who targetted civilians and children should also be executed for murder as well. Those people are not innocent and they do deserve to die. However, civilians living on both sides of the Gaza strip are definitely innocent victims of their military clash and they don't deserve to die. How can you know understand something so simple? I can't believe it.

Quote:
But I'm glad that you remarked that both Israel and Hamas rejected the UN resolution. It's important to note, because it shows that Hamas is not the victim of this conflict. They do not want outside aid or an end to this conflict. The people to suffer from Hamas' ambitions are the Palestinian people, the Israeli people, and if Hamas really has it their way, the entire nation of Israel.
Just because I don't support Israel's military actions has no relations as to what you are assuming. I am considering that both Israel and the Hamas are the bad guys, while the good guys are the victims of the military crisis on both sides of the Gaza strip.

Quote:
That's a good question, and you're right to ask that question. Of course, I think that you're assuming that the only reason that Hamas is fighting is for resources/better living conditions/to fend off Israeli aggression. That's quite logical and probably some of those factors really go into the reason for why Hamas is fighting. See the above quote from the Hamas Covenant for another reason that isn't quite as logical.
I don't know much about the Hamas Covenant. To be honest, I just heard it from you. I am guessing that the objectives of the Hamas is to wipe Israel off the world map, while the objectives of Israel is to prevent it even at the cost of civilian lives which is wrong. Whether it be counter-attack or revenge, escalating a military conflict to the scale of a war is wrong no matter how you look at it.

When you know that a nation is actively targeting your civilians through suicide bombers and rockets, and that they want to kill as many people as they can, what do you think an appropriate response would be? You can't arrest a suicide bomber once the bomb goes off, nor is there a good chance that you can stop a rocket once it has been launched. It isn't that Israel was hypothesizing that attacks were coming, as the US did with Afghanistan and Iraq - they've been suffering these attacks for years upon years, and the same old message of "destroy Israel" still exists among militant groups sitting on the borders.

Quote:
I don't mind you condemning Israel's actions, because for certain many of them have been excessive and resulted in deaths and destruction that could likely have been avoided. It makes me upset that you can condemn Israel while completely ignoring Hamas. Don't you get it? Hamas is out to kill Israeli citizens - they even openly say it - and you completely ignore that and only point a finger at Israel for killing innocent bystanders while attempting to act in self-defense. So go ahead and condemn Israel, but never again forget that you should condemn every member of Hamas who fires a rocket into Israel from the rooftop of a crowded apartment complex, for on top of causing damage and potentially death in Israel they have sentenced their fellow Palestinians to Israeli gunfire.
I guess I was unclear in my previous post, considering how short it was. If you read this entire post, you would realize that I am not ignoring the actions of the Hamas and never did. Even so, I will have to condemn Israel's actions up this point of the 2-week military conflict. There were probably many occasions in which the Israeli military could have avoided civilian casualties, yet they chose not to over resentment. Perhaps, it isn't an excuse to slaughter civilians like you put it, but nonetheless.. This kind of thing does occur during the times of war, not just in the Middle East but around the world throughout history. Regardless of that, I just hope that the toothless United Nations could draft up some peaceful resolution to this military conflict soon.
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Old 2009-01-10, 07:25   Link #245
bladeofdarkness
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the one thing that no one said out loud is the sad truth (it takes a while to understand)
every dead palestinian child is one more advantage for the hamas (more ammo)
the more innocent people die the more world public opinion turns against israel
and the more the international community puts pressure on it to stop its attack
the hamas has no real illusions about its ability to stop the israeli's on its own so their best shot at winning (as in, making the IDF stop its attack before it achived its goals) is if the world pressure does it for them
and that takes a high death toll
which is why they use the people of gaza as their meat shields
becouse the more innocents die as a result of israeli attacks (aimed at the terrorists) the higher the body count and the greater the pressure
how else do you explain some of the things that the hamas have been doing (which i already stated in earlier posts)

saying something like "dont the hamas know that innocent people on their side will get hurt if they fire from their home" is to completely misunderstand their aim
the hamas isnt trying to avoid innocent deaths among its civis
IT IS AIMING AT AS MUCH INNOCENT DEATHS AS POSSIBLE
its sad but true
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Old 2009-01-10, 07:30   Link #246
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
The point is, if you are mad that Israel has killed many civilians and many children, don't think it is just all their fault. This military action has been called upon after they have been provoked very much, and then the Hamas did what they could to ensure civilian casualties would be high due to collateral damage.

This isn't a black and white issue, and Israel isn't all innocent and 'the good guy' in this (although it is hard to blame them for wanting to do something about rocket strikes). There are many things to discuss in this issue, and many have discussed much about said things in this thread. I just wanted to point out that the high civilian casualties isn't something to solely blame on Israel; at least not entirely.
It's a classic war strategy employed by the Hamas terrorists/rebels/freedom fighters or whatever they're called.
Hiding among the civilian population to ensure that civilians get killed along with them.

Millitarily, Hamas can't defeat Israel. At least in the media they could score some hits.
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Old 2009-01-10, 07:51   Link #247
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
It's a classic war strategy employed by the Hamas terrorists/rebels/freedom fighters or whatever they're called.
Hiding among the civilian population to ensure that civilians get killed along with them.

Millitarily, Hamas can't defeat Israel. At least in the media they could score some hits.
and they are perfectly willing to "buy" these points with the blood of palestinian children
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Old 2009-01-10, 10:05   Link #248
shelter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and they are perfectly willing to "buy" these points with the blood of palestinian children
Which is a political motive. Which, unfortunately Israel falls into by continuing their strikes. Which, in turn, Hamas doesn't want to cease, because it gives them sympathy. Which... (keeps going on).

I feel its simply sad to see politicians talk wave rhetoric & create strongly-worded statements. The real issue here is that someone, something, needs to stop the violence - on both sides.
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Old 2009-01-10, 10:31   Link #249
bladeofdarkness
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the israeli gov worries about its own people's safety first and for most
the hamas (who are suppose to be the palestinian gov) should be the ones who worry about their own people
if they fail to do so (or rather act in order to kill off as many of them as they can) then its not israel's concern

that being said
the israeli's are taking many steps to limit the deaths of innocents
they drop leaflets to let people know when they will attack in the area
they call people and warn them before attacking near by weapon cashes
and israeli pilots are given the right to abort bombing runs on the fly if they judge the target to be too populated (and they do, you just do hear about it becouse its hard to report attacks that didnt take place)
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Old 2009-01-10, 11:04   Link #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
My sympathy to Palestinian civilians caught in the crossfire.
Yeah that's pretty much my feelings on this issue. Should Israel have just sat back and relax while their people get rocketted? No. Were their actions the correct ones? Maybe not. I'm not exactly sure what should have been done, but the situation right now is pretty bad. In most situations, the best solution is not the simplest solution, not the clearest solution, and sometimes not even a nice solution. Right now I am just hoping that the UN will not be useless in this case.
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Old 2009-01-10, 11:22   Link #251
Sylphic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Yeah that's pretty much my feelings on this issue. Should Israel have just sat back and relax while their people get rocketted? No. Were their actions the correct ones? Maybe not. I'm not exactly sure what should have been done, but the situation right now is pretty bad. In most situations, the best solution is not the simplest solution, not the clearest solution, and sometimes not even a nice solution. Right now I am just hoping that the UN will not be useless in this case.
Unfortunately the UN has been useless for a large part of this century. Any UN initiative without the backing of the United States seems to fail in the miserable fashion. The US will never back a resolution against Israel. The US abstained in its vote for the ceasefire call, giving Israel its implicit approval for the continuation of the conflict.

As long as both Hamas and Israel exist, I simply don't see how diplomacy will ever create peace in the Middle East. Diplomacy has only served to prolong the conflict for 50 years. Egypt, Syria, and Jordon no longer openly support the destruction of Israel partly because of the fall of the USSR, and also more importantly that they had the stuffing ripped out of them in 1967 during the Six Day War.

Every time Israel attacks, people are being used as human shields by Hamas will die. Prolonging the conflict will only mean more people will die. Maybe the best way would just be to let Israel and Hamas fight it out until either one is permanently out.
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Old 2009-01-10, 12:26   Link #252
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
From the consideration of your perspective on the military crisis in Gaza, I assume that you have family and friend ties with Israel and I also am well aware that people of Israel are supportive of their country and its actions, whether it be right or wrong. I also understand that you are very emotional about the current crisis in which your country is under attacked by rockets and is very angry but Israel isn't doing the right thing. Anyways...
I do freely admit that I may be biased in favor of Israel, as one parent's side of the family (and half of the other's) are Israeli. I am not a blind supporter of Israel, though. There have been plenty of times when Israel's responses were either unjustified, untimely, or shouldn't have occurred at all. If everyone on here were saying that Israel should bomb each and every Palestinian then I assure you that I would be countering them. Instead, I perceive there to be a large set of opinions who feel that the Palestinians (including the militants) are victims of Israel's aggression, or even entirely right in what they're doing.

I don't think that my initial siding with Israel is due to my background with the nation. As I've mentioned before, I was often taken to Israel on trips as a child. Back then nobody was firing rockets, but suicide bombers were the norm. Crowded places were highly scrutinized and my family tended to avoid them; on the occasions when we would go to the local mall (which wasn't particularly large by American standards) I noted that security officers would perform a bag search before we could enter. I'd wager that if we looked to be of Arabic descent then it would have involved a bit more than that. Can you imagine having to submit to a bag search every time you went into your local mall, all while knowing that a suicide bomber had successfully struck somewhere the week before, and there had been countless others in the weeks before that one?

That was my first exposure to terrorism. Most Americans seemingly only experienced it with the 9/11 attack which, while devastating, simply couldn't compare in my mind. Nobody here walks around in fear of another airplane hitting their building. Yet in Israel, at least back then, it was always on your mind that you were entering somewhere crowded and that at any minute an explosion could go off. Not that we or the other Israelis around us were scared and cowered in our homes; I'd imagine that most Israelis didn't give it much of a second thought, given that it was relatively routine by then. But it was always on my mind.

Even as a child I began to wonder why people were trying to kill Israelis. I knew nothing about geopolitics, but it made no sense. Why would anyone intentionally walk into a crowded mall and blow themselves up? Why weren't the Palestinians on the other side condemning those attacks - why were they seemingly doing the opposite? Maybe if I'd been in Palestine instead I would have felt that Israel was being the aggressor, but I'm not so sure. Israel as a nation was under attack practically from the day that it was formed, and it wasn't like their military was acting without good reason considering that those attacks were still ongoing.

While nobody is "the good guy" in this scenario, it really puts Israel into a tough scenario. When you have suicide bombers from a neighboring nation crossing over the borders and inflicting damage upon your citizens and infrastructure, what's the ideal solution? I'd think that the ideal solution would be to lodge a complaint with the other country and offer assistance if they request it in eradicating the violent group. Ideally that country would then take care of the issue (for an example of this, see the current India-Pakistan dealings regarding dealing with the group responsible for the November Mumbai attacks). What happens if the other country can't handle it on their own (such as the African nations that are in chaos yet host various rebel/militant factions)? At that point the country coming under attack has to make the ugly decision to choose its own citizens over the citizens of the other country. I call it ugly because ideally we would not prioritize one human life over another, but a government does have a responsibility to its citizens, doesn't it? In Israel's situation the scenario was even worse: the nation playing host to the violent factions was not only unwilling (and arguably incapable) of stopping the violence from their end, but they were supportive of it. What choice did that leave Israel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Ridiculous! Whether it be pro-Israel or pro-Hamas, that isn't even the point here. I am pro-neither side.
It could be that I am biased, but I don't believe you. I will make a special point of showing where you favor Hamas in your statements for the rest of this post. Who knows - maybe you really do slightly favor Hamas/the Palestinians without realizing it, maybe not. Please consider that for each time that I point out what I perceive to be unfair awards to Hamas/Palestine and demerits to Israel in what you write:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Just because I feel that the children in Gaza died were innocent doesn't mean that I am taking the side of Israel's enemy, because that is a very groundless assumption. Certainly, it is true that Israel now considers anybody or any nation that is not supportive of their military actions in Gaza as "enemies", but that only proves that they are already in the wrong direction without even realizing it.
I felt that you were blindly taking the side of the Palestinians here because you talked about children in the Gaza strip. If you weren't aware that Hamas were targeting anyone living in Israel, you know it now. I didn't hear you mention a single thing about Israeli children, whether it be that they're being targeted (yes, intentionally targeted - can't say the same for the Palestinian children) or that their schools and parents are being killed, too. You completely ignored the losses (and potential losses) on the Israeli side, persumably because the number of deaths on the Israeli side are drastically less than those in Palestine. Many people would initially look at those numbers and say that it's a matter of bullying ("Israel's not holding back, but the poor Palestinians can't do much better than that") but I provided some reasons for why those numbers are the way that they are.

I would also remark that Israel does not consider anyone who doesn't support their operations to be enemies. I don't know where you got that from. Israel considers an enemy anyone who attacks the state of Israel and its citizens. Are they not correct in labeling such people as enemies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
True, the Hamas chose the location to fire the rockets in a crowd of civilians, especially children because they probably believed that the Israeli government are on the side of justice and they would never counter-attack targetting a crowd of people in which it consists of mainly civilians and among the civilians are children. Unfortunately, the Hamas had made a mistake and involved the lives of innocent civilians, because Israel has no feelings for the children of Palestinians. Thus, they counterattacked the Hamas as soon as they were hit by their rockets.
You clearly favor Hamas here and villify Israel. You've painted the picture as if Hamas were expecting something noble and that Israel then turned around and back-stabbed them. I'll break it down further:

You claim that Hamas chose to work from crowded locations because they believed that Israel was "on the side of justice" and wouldn't counter-attack. What leads you to believe that? Even if it were true that they believed that (which I find highly doubtful, for a number of reasons of which I'll only list one here), I'd imagine that after the first five or so counter-attacks made by Israel it was pretty clear that Israel would counter-attack regardless of where Hamas was firing from. Tell me then, why does Hamas continue to fire from those locations? I and a few others on this thread hypothesize that Hamas is intentionally choosing those locations in order to garner sympathy and support, as people would overlook the fact that Hamas is choosing those places (even though they could go elsewhere) and jump straight to the fact that an Israeli-fired weapon killed non-militants. If that seems plausible to you, then what makes you think that wasn't Hamas' policy from the very beginning?

You then clearly villify Israel by claiming that "Israel has no feelings for the children of Palestinians." First, you make Israel out to be some soulless/heartless nation, and second you're invoking children (as opposed to Palestinians in general) which is a group often targeted by politicians and other groups attempting to persuade people based on gut emotion rather than reasoning. Your statement is also baseless - how do you know whether Israeli commanders and soldiers feel nothing about having killed innocents? This all goes back to the scenario I listed in the last paragraph of my response to your first quote. I'd imagine that Israel (the majority, at least) does not want to kill Palestinian innocents, but they feel that it has become an "us or them" scenario. Do you really expect that they would value the life of a Palestinian over the life of an Israeli? Would you do the same if it were your country?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
I am not saying that Israel is to be blamed for their current actions in Gaza, but their current direction is wrong and they should stop what they are doing immediately. First of all, if you do not have the accuracy to take down enemies, you shouldn't even attempt to do so in the first place.
Israel cannot sit back and do nothing. Hypothetically, to give no response would embolden Hamas and its supporters to perform more attacks and perhaps perform even more daring, more damaging attacks. Even if that didn't happen, the Israeli people would be outraged at their government.

Furthermore, nothing has 100% accuracy. When a police man draws his gun to fire back on an armed criminal he risks hitting innocent bystanders. Are you saying that only the "bad guys" should be the ones to fire weapons? Israel's weapons are racking up plenty of civilian casualties to be sure, but they're likely also taking out Hamas members and some of their munitions. (Hamas claims otherwise, but I don't particularly believe them. Honestly, if Hezbollah could claim victory after the Lebanon conflict in 2006, where they were beaten at practically every turn and their host nation was set back a few years in damage, there's no reason why Hamas can't claim something similar.) I don't think that justifies the civilian casualties, but what else can Israel do given the constraints I mentioned in the paragraph above?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Israel should first calm down and make plans as to who their enemies truly are and what people they have been slaughtering for the past 2 weeks. Israel's enemies are the Hamas, but the majority of the victims who suffered under the hands of the Israeli military are Palestinian civilians, in which over one third are children. Is Israel attacking the right people here? Aren't their current military actions very questionable? True, they have killed many Hamas units, but the number of their enemies don't make up the current 760 death toll, it probably makes up about 1% of the total number of casualties and wounded. Unjust!
Your questioning of "is Israel attacking the right people here" makes it sound as though Israel is intentionally targeting Palestinian non-militants. You further claim that the Palestinian people are suffering at the hands of the Israeli military. While the weapons being fired that kill those people are Israeli in origin, who is it that is directing their fire? Unless you completely don't believe that Israel is doing its best to respond to rocket fire by firing back at the origin of the rocket, how can you not claim that the Palestinian civilians are also suffering at the hands of Hamas? You're giving Hamas a free pass.

Israel knows very well who their enemies are. You keep talking about this conflict as though it's been occurring on the scale or weeks or even two months, but this has been going on for much, much longer than that. It may not have been Hamas all those years ago, but the host nation, goals, and tactics were largely the same. What is Israel to do? Continue to suffer damage and death at the hands of Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, or what ever militant group is trendy at the time? That is completely unreasonable. Please spend a few moments to go through a mental simulation of what it would be like if your own country were undergoing attacks regularly from a host nation that either would not stop the attacks or even endorsed them. I could understand the desire to restrain yourself for about a year, but after that it would become clear that the attacks weren't stopping. Would you not feel resentful that your own nation were being attacked for simply existing? Wouldn't you be angry that the population in the other country weren't doing anything to prevent the inevitable conflict; that they were cheering it on? You would really lay down and die and tell your family and friends to do the same simply because you wouldn't want to risk hitting a single innocent on the other side?

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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Not exactly. I am concerned about the safety of the children there, because they are not part of the military conflict. You cannot say that nobody involved in the current military crisis don't deserve death. The Hamas who targetted civilian homes in Southern Israel should be executed for murder. The Israeli soldiers who targetted civilians and children should also be executed for murder as well. Those people are not innocent and they do deserve to die. However, civilians living on both sides of the Gaza strip are definitely innocent victims of their military clash and they don't deserve to die. How can you know understand something so simple? I can't believe it.
While I don't necessarily blindly agree with your idea that murderers should be put to death (we can save the discussion of the death penalty for another debate), I'm glad you mentioned Hamas here. In light of the rest of your unbalanced statements you've been unfair to Israel's soldiers, however. Hamas has the goal of targeting everyone in Israel, whether they are a soldier or an innocent. While there may be some soldiers on the Israeli side who have gone out of their way to kill innocents (perhaps for revenge), it is not the army's policy to do so and they have been known to take actions in an effort to reduce human casualties, such as dropping leaflets over an area that will be bombed and urging residents to evacuate. Your mentioning both Hamas and the Israeli soldiers on the same level like that makes it sound as if both sides have a genocidal agenda, when the reality is that you're only half right (going by their official stances, at least).

Separately, I'll note that I take issue with your constant mentioning of children for a different reason. As I alluded to before, "think of the children" is a message used by politicians and other groups who generally seek to garner support for a cause while shutting down reasoning in the people who hear the message. It also serves to block any debate over the issue, because who wants to argue against something that might benefit children? Anyone who would speak up would be viewed as cold-hearted. I'm sure that isn't your intent, but it's something that is used more often than it should in various issues. I also don't see a reason for you to keep alluding to children because the truth is that there are plenty of people, both child and adult, who are innocent in all of this and who are losing their lives due to the conflict.

I'm glad to see that you mentioned that there are innocents on both sides who are losing their lives. Earlier you were only speaking about the losses on the Palestinian side, completely ignoring the losses (and potential losses) on the Israeli side. That's fair.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Just because I don't support Israel's military actions has no relations as to what you are assuming. I am considering that both Israel and the Hamas are the bad guys, while the good guys are the victims of the military crisis on both sides of the Gaza strip.
I hope I've been doing a good job so far of showing that my assumptions were not so far off the mark. I'd also like to take the opportunity to say that there are no good guys or bad guys in this scenario. The IDF is fighting for a just cause in the peace and safety of the citizens of Israel. Hamas is fighting for a just cause in attempting to bring attention to the plight of the Palestinian people. Both are unjust in their killing of innocent civilians. The non-militant civilians on both sides are guilty of not doing more to force their respective militant wings to back off their attacks. Unlike you, I do not consider them to be "good guys" simply because they were killed without a gun in their hands. Then again, I do not see how the terms good and bad could be applied so blatently to any side or group.

If a judgement is to be made at all, then let justice be dispensed fairly.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
I don't know much about the Hamas Covenant. To be honest, I just heard it from you. I am guessing that the objectives of the Hamas is to wipe Israel off the world map, while the objectives of Israel is to prevent it even at the cost of civilian lives which is wrong. Whether it be counter-attack or revenge, escalating a military conflict to the scale of a war is wrong no matter how you look at it.
How do you feel about World War II? Brief history refresher: Hitler and Nazi Germany initially started a military conquest to reclaim what they felt were rightfully German lands that had been taken away from World War I. No nation wanted to fight, and land was continually given to Germany as a form of appeasement. Yet Hitler wasn't satisfied. No amount of land given away as appeasement would have ended Hitler's ambitions, unless Hitler had all of Europe (and then perhaps the rest of the world). People were of course unwilling to submit to the Nazis, and conflict was inevitable.

Now it seems that you are claiming that Israel should try to appease Hamas with the blood of Israel's own citizens, in order to prevent further violence and conflict. Hamas doesn't care whether Israel is attacking or not, just as the other militant groups never cared. They want Israel to be gone, and the most radical of them want to see every Jewish person (hey - that's me!) killed. How can you say that Israel should appease such a group?

Understand that I am not a war hawk about this. I completely understand your sentiment about war and agree with it. There are times when you have no choice but to use force, though, and I feel that Israel has been pushed into such a situation. If everyone could get along and perhaps even discuss out conflicts then you'd be right, war and fighting would have no place in this world. It shouldn't have a place at all, but some people feel the need to trespass against others. Even at the childhood level, you have bullies at the playground who push and shove other peaceful children for no good reason; who steal lunch money and abuse them. When discussion fails, what should happen? Running from the bully is an OK temporary solution, but what if one cannot run? Why should you simply submit and not defend yourself?

I'd also like you to understand that due to the long, long history of hatred and persecution against Jews (which has been occurring since medieval Europe, if not even much longer than that) many Jews are very sensitive to anti-semitism. I feel that many are sensitive to a fault, often claiming that anti-semitism is in play when it really isn't. I used to hate that until I took a trip to Poland and saw anti-semitism alive and well. Fresh graffiti showing the Jewish star on a scaffold, "gas the Jews" (written in Polish) - it was disguting. I mention all that because I understand that I may be coming off as a bit of a warmonger here. The truth is that I am a peace-loving person and I'd love for nothing more than to have violence and war reduced to existing in video games. I'd love for everyone to get along and to work toward prosperity together. But when someone exists who wants to hurt me or kill me simply because I am who I am, even though I have done them no harm nor will I ever, then I'm afraid that conflict is inevitable.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
I guess I was unclear in my previous post, considering how short it was. If you read this entire post, you would realize that I am not ignoring the actions of the Hamas and never did. Even so, I will have to condemn Israel's actions up this point of the 2-week military conflict. There were probably many occasions in which the Israeli military could have avoided civilian casualties, yet they chose not to over resentment.
You're still siding with Hamas even here. You're claiming that the Israeli military could have probably avoided many civilian casualties (which may or may not be true, but you're making the assumption that it is). How many civilian casualties could Hamas have avoided? Every single one. It's simple: launch your rockets at the Israeli military (which has quite a presence - they're not hiding on rooftops or in apartments) instead of launching them into populated Israeli villages. You strangely don't mention that.

Furthermore you're claiming that the casualties are due to Israeli resentment, rather than claiming that they could be accidental and/or that they're at least partly due to Hamas choosing to fire rockets from people's homes. That's a very biased statement to make and once again shows that you're villifying Israel, as though the killing of innocent Palestinians was intentional.

If a person is biased in favor of Palestine and/or against Israel, there is nothing wrong with that - everyone is entitled to their own opinions, after all. Please do not claim that you're unbiased and then proceed to unfairly condemn one side while ignoring the guilt of the other side. I know that you're not saying that Hamas are good or just, but your condemnations of Israel are so blatant and you barely make a mention of the evils committed by Hamas. Both sides have committed atrocities - make sure that you make fair mention of them.
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Old 2009-01-10, 14:51   Link #253
Shadow Kira01
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I can sympathize with you, though I do condemn the military actions of both the Hamas and Israel's military. I can also understand your feelings about the current military crisis.
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Old 2009-01-10, 21:04   Link #254
Lathdrinor
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In the short-term, I think that Israel's invasion of Gaza will prove that superior firepower beats political rhetoric and international protest. It's unlikely that any nation aside from the US has the clout to force a ceasefire, and the US will not do it because Israel is a close ally. Consequently, it's likely that Israel will accomplish its immediate strategic objective - which is to weaken Hamas, possibly to the point where a competing organization like Fatah could take power and strike a compromise.

In the long-term, it's hard to say. We'd like to think that violence never works, but history shows that sometimes it does, up to a point - just look at the War in Iraq, or the defeat of Germany and Japan. It depends on the application - Israel's invasion of Lebanon didn't work, but against Hamas, which is a smaller, more localized organization, it might.

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Old 2009-01-10, 21:43   Link #255
yezhanquan
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Lebanon is a sovereign state, and Hizbollah has been more careful since the 2006 invasion. True, it was a military defeat for Israel, but politically, Hizbollah is somewhat silenced.

For Israel, the election for a new PM has been factored into this war. Livni, Barack and Netanyahu are running for the post.
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Old 2009-01-10, 21:57   Link #256
bladeofdarkness
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Hizbollah is not the gov of lebanon
and they did get enough of a beating to think twice about attacking israel any time soon
in fact their leader naseralla is getting heat for not doing anything to help the hamas right now and he still doesnt dare to actually do anything beside talking

maybe when this battle is over the same would apply to the hamas in gaza
thats assuming that the israeli ground operation stays where it is now (rather then expending into stage C, which means conquering the entire strip rather then the outskirts only)
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Old 2009-01-10, 21:58   Link #257
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True, it depends on the objectives - both the stated and the unstated. Defanging Hamas is the stated objective, but deterring other potential attackers is likely part of the calculation.
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Old 2009-01-10, 22:51   Link #258
Shadow Kira01
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Israel Rejected Hamas Cease-Fire Offer in December

Now, I am starting to have second thoughts.

Did Israel lied about the Hamas ripping up their cease-fire agreement papers and tossing it out the window? If this is the case, then... I am speechless.

Ban on foreign journalists skews coverage of conflict

It appears that foreign journalists are currently not allowed to visit Gaza or the regions near the area of conflict, which seems to make Israel's military actions and official statements as suspicious. If Israel is truly doing what they are as indicated in their official statements, then why the barring? Everytime a military conflict that occurs and prevents foreign journalists from entering the location to see what is really going on, it usually indicates that something is definitely wrong. On the contrary, I believe that most people would try to avoid heading there, considering that both the Hamas and the Israeli military are going on a rampage over there. Even so, the idea of safety as a reason is not good enough as an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
In the long-term, it's hard to say. We'd like to think that violence never works, but history shows that sometimes it does, up to a point - just look at the War in Iraq, or the defeat of Germany and Japan. It depends on the application - Israel's invasion of Lebanon didn't work, but against Hamas, which is a smaller, more localized organization, it might.
This is the reason why the United Nations should intervene, otherwise lots of tragic incidents will occur in the future if political leaders around the world start to think that the best resolution to a conflict is the utilization of military forces. Such a possibility is quite high, but it isn't good. Russia crushed Georgia awhile back and the protest and disbelief of the international community had almost no effects. This time around, it is the Israeli invasion of Gaza and it seems to be rather similar. Israel is doing what it must to eliminate the Hamas, while coming up with all sorts of unreasonable arguments, yet once again.. The UN is proved to be toothless and that the protests of the international community has almost no effect again.
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Old 2009-01-11, 03:33   Link #259
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Israel Rejected Hamas Cease-Fire Offer in December

Now, I am starting to have second thoughts.

Did Israel lied about the Hamas ripping up their cease-fire agreement papers and tossing it out the window? If this is the case, then... I am speechless.
Neither side is serious about a ceasefire, even though it'd be in both of their interests. They both seem to have it in their head that they can win this militarily, dispite decades of evidence that says otherwise.
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Old 2009-01-11, 04:07   Link #260
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Now, I am starting to have second thoughts.

Did Israel lied about the Hamas ripping up their cease-fire agreement papers and tossing it out the window? If this is the case, then... I am speechless.
that report is wrong for several reasons
1)while there was a cease-fire agreement, there was no actual cease fire
the hamas kept firing and smuggling weapons into the strip (and the israeli's did nothing)
2)the new offer from the hamas was at a higher price (they get control in the passes to the strip)
3)the "siege" in gaza is in kept in place by not just the israeli's but also europe (who dont deal with hamas) the americans (same) and is in place BECOUSE of the rocket attacks and not the other way around

after a six months cease fire which did not actually happen on the hamas's end (daily rocket attacks against israel) the hamas comes along and increases its demends for another cease-fire
the israeli gov did not except what would basiclly mean bowing down to threats
why should they

israel does not want a six months "cease-fire" in which "only" a few rockets are fired at israeli's cities
it wants a complete end to any hostile attacks coming from the strip (rockets, tunnals, bombers, etc) for the next 6 years at least
they want to end this already
and israel wants to end this around the negotiation table
the hamas and other islamic jihad groups think that this can be settled by force
and this is still a rather strong notion in the arab and muslim world today (sadly)
the idea of "Resistance" to israel's very existance is deeply rooted and almost every PLO group has imbraced it at one point or another
the idea is that "if you fight hard enough for long enough, all the jews will pack up and leave the middle east"

and as long as they are allowed to continue believing that
they will keep holding up the "Resistance" as the only way to regain what they have lost
and so they must be shown that the israeli's can play the same game (and play it much better) as they can
sad but true about this part of the world (shame innocent palestinians are traped in the line of fire)
if the hamas is shown that its very existance in the gaza strip depends on them sitting down, shuting up, and behaving themselves
only then will they be willing to solve this by talking rather then "Resisting"

P.S
news reporters arent allowed becouse they would
1)give away IDF moves (putting soldiers at risk)
2) put their own life at risk
3)over emphesies the "suffering" in gaza rather then answering the obvius question of "why are the israeli's attacking in the first place"

the condition's in gaza are terrible
but they werent this terrible 3 weeks ago
and the hamas was firing rockets back then too
they cant claim that the israeli attack is the cause of their rockets
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