AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-01-11, 08:20   Link #281
Jazzrat
Bearly Legal
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
If winter is anything like where i'm now (qatar), i dont believe it's an issue for aerial operation? Not in the army or Israel so i wouldn't know

Not so sure about Arab-Hamas relationship though but the vocal muslim public would shout for jihad whenever other muslim was attacked while cheering victory whenever their own blow themselves up killing innocent civvies.
__________________
Jazzrat is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 08:31   Link #282
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
If winter is anything like where i'm now (qatar), i dont believe it's an issue for aerial operation? Not in the army or Israel so i wouldn't know

Not so sure about Arab-Hamas relationship though but the vocal muslim public would shout for jihad whenever other muslim was attacked while cheering victory whenever their own blow themselves up killing innocent civvies.
the weather effects the pinpoint air strikes becouse the clouds block the view (jets fly over the clouds)
rain is fine, but the clouds are a problem
the muslim street's reaction is almost instinctive in that regard
but the goverments know better about what is actually going on (the news blocked on gaza mean that very little info goes out to the public)
most of the sunni countries (egept, most of all) oppose hamas becouse its a radical group who are part of irans move on the mid east
the arabs states may not like israel
but they fear iran more
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 08:56   Link #283
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
its more likely aimed at the palestinian public in that regard
its basiclly a messege of "either we both sit down and talk, or we both fire away"
who do you think would win
Actually, I don't know who would "win". Any victory I can think of is Pyrrhic at best.

What is the likely end game of the current offensive in Gaza? Supposing the rocket attacks don't stop — a very likely outcome — what would Israel do? Conduct a sweep through Gaza City, block-by-block, alley-by-alley, tunnel-by-tunnel, until every Hamas militant (presuming that the IDF can account for every fighter) is killed?

Militarily, I don't see how Israel can stop the rocket attacks for good short of reoccupying the Gaza Strip.

Which brings me back to my original question: If the intent is to intimidate Hamas, does a conventional attack really offer the best long-term solution? Israel seems to think it does. I hope it is right, for the sake of ordinary Israelis and Palestinians alike.
TinyRedLeaf is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 09:20   Link #284
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
wars are won in the will
and winning this type of war is a very diffeclt to explain (in every such war, both sides claim to have won in the end)
you dont win wars by killing every last enemy soldier
you do so by making the enemy lose their will to fight (again, its a point of "they can hate as long as they fear")

when this is all over (and it will be soon, some kinda cease fire is coming in the weeks to come)
both sides would try to show why they "won" and will try to "sell" this victory to their own people
from day one the gov and the army made it clear that the goal of the op is not to stop the rocket attacks by force
an israeli "victory" is one where the hamas stops firing rockets after the op is over becosue THEY dont want to anymore (they know the damage they would get for it)
this is pretty much already in place
but its not much of a victory if the hamas is able to sell their own "victory" to the people of gaza
right now the hamas's "victory" can only come from the fact that they can still fire rockets (they havnt scored anything else that could be claimed as a win)
so a "true" win for the israeli's would be a situation where at the end of the op the hamas isnt able to say "we won" and have anyone believe them
and that takes more then just killing off field operatives and leader figures
victory is symbolic
but its still the only way to win this kind of war
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 09:26   Link #285
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
wars are won in the will
and winning this type of war is a very diffeclt to explain (in every such war, both sides claim to have won in the end)
you dont win wars by killing every last enemy soldier
you do so by making the enemy lose their will to fight (again, its a point of "they can hate as long as they fear")
Sadly enough, I can't argue against that logic — history proves it works.

Quote:
but its not much of a victory if the hamas is able to sell their own "victory" to the people of gaza
right now the hamas's "victory" can only come from the fact that they can still fire rockets (they havnt scored anything else that could be claimed as a win)
But ultimately, Israel loses the battle for hearts and minds. Hamas fighters may fear military retaliation in the future, but in the eyes of ordinary Palestinians, they will look like heroes continuing the fight against a brutal aggressor.
TinyRedLeaf is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 09:36   Link #286
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
they have rockets now
they dont need suicide bombings (they do try nevertheless, they just cant pull it off)

and if they are really desprete
they should just give up on fighting altogether
How self-serving. Try to look at it from their eyes. If they've got nothing to lose, why shouldn't they take it out on random Israeli civilians?

Quote:
the biggest irony is that they are getting farther and farther away from any chance at independence by fighting
if they stopped firing completely the israeli's would do the same
and both sides would be able to go back to talking
And the Israeli would peacefully drive them from their homes and fields and embargo the hell out of them.

Quote:
@Anh_Minh
they would never support israel no matter what
ever
this is the middle east
Depends how you define "support Israel". Bomb them, and you radicalize them to the point where suggesting anything less than genocide is being a traitor to the Palestinian cause. What you should try to do is make it so cooler heads prevail on both sides. People who think it's actually possible to live together.

Quote:
what they need to understand is that there is nothing they can actually do about it and that it would always be there whether they like it or not
and thats all is needed really for peace in the mid east (hate is fine so long as there is also fear)
sad but true
And what you need to understand is that rancor isn't that easy to let go of, and that people need more than being allowed to slowly starve to live peacefully.

Quote:
and to hear reports from inside the strip is to question your point about hamas potential recruits
they built themselves up as "an army against israel"
and not only are they proving themselves as pathetic (all they do is run mostly, and fire from other people's homes)
the ones they are hurting the most litteraly are the people in gaza
and the people are calling them out on it
Which people are that? What they see is Israeli bombs killing their loved ones. Everything is else is detail.
Anh_Minh is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 09:37   Link #287
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
But ultimately, Israel loses the battle for hearts and minds. Hamas fighters may fear military retaliation in the future, but in the eyes of ordinary Palestinians, they will look like heroes continuing the fight against a brutal aggressor.
not anymore their not
voices from gaza are saying it loud and clear
the hamas caused a disaster by provoking the "brutal aggressor" (while their own leaders are hiding and its operatives are using the people as shields)
there is a great amount of anger at the hamas in gaza right now
if by the end of this war the hamas cant show anything for it (namely, a high israeli death toll, or a political achivement) it will collapse from lack of any public support

and thats what the IDF is going for right now (or would be going for if the political side gave it a green light)
right now hamas needs to get something to show for it
and they can only gain it in the cease-fire negotiations
if they are pushed hard enough and hurt badly enough that they have no choice but to except terms that are favorable to israel and bad for the hamas then they dont have long in gaza

@Anh_Minh
1)they get more for talking peacefully then they ever get from fighting
so its not that they have nothing to lose, they have everything to gain by stopping the fight and starting the talks
2)the israeli's have already cleared any settelments from the gaza strip 3 years ago (as a gesture of good will on their part)
they have no intentions of making it a part of israel, so they dont mean to drive anyone away from their homes and fields
the israeli's DONT WANT GAZA.
AT ALL.
and the embrgo is global (us, europe, not just israeli)
becouse no one agrees with having the hamas as the ruling body in gaza after the took over by force
3)in the time before hamas took over the strip the palestinian people in gaza were building their own lives with international and israeli support
that ended when hamas took over
4)palestinian people living in the strip are speaking out against them (not on camera, they'd get killed)
5) the cooler heads are not stupid enough to challange hamas right now
they were driven out of gaza by force of arm
__________________

Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2009-01-11 at 09:50.
bladeofdarkness is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:01   Link #288
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
not anymore their not
voices from gaza are saying it loud and clear
the hamas caused a disaster by provoking the "brutal aggressor" (while their own leaders are hiding and its operatives are using the people as shields)
there is a great amount of anger at the hamas in gaza right now
if by the end of this war the hamas cant show anything for it (namely, a high israeli death toll, or a political achivement) it will collapse from lack of any public support
That largely depends on which news you choose to believe. I get a mix of both views. More disturbingly, the very public violence in Gaza threatens to destablise Fatah's control of the West Bank.
TinyRedLeaf is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:15   Link #289
TUndead
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylphic View Post
I don't understand why everybody is unilaterally condemning Israel for the invasion of the Gaza strip. I'm not pro Israel or anything, but stepping back and looking at it from a more objective point of view.

Hamas is the elected government of the Gaza strip, ever since Israel stopped it's occupation in good faith. Elected government (therefore the national government) decides to send missiles into it's neighbour, Israel. Now by any standard of measurement this is a declaration of war. If the UK decided to shoot missles at France, it would be easily justified for for France to retaliate. So.. someone declares war on Israel and they are not allowed to fight back? Israel has shown enough restraint already, Hamas brought this on themselves. They declared war on Israel, and then cried foul to the world once they are losing?

One has to wonder, however, how many of these so called "civilian" casualties are actually civilians. During the Vietnam war, the US army couldn't tell who was Vietcong and who was civilian simply because the "terrorists" were armed with nothing but an AK-47. Lose the AK and they look just like a civilian. Most of the casualty reports cannot be independently verified thanks to the media blackout by Israel, and Hamas easily has the motive to exaggerate the civilian casualties. I don't doubt for a second that Israel has already destroyed the lives of many though.

However, I also do not completely sympathize with the people of the Gaza strip as they honestly kind of brought this on themselves. They were the ones who elected Hamas as their government. A group who had the destruction of Israel as their first foremost priority. Clearly war was to be expected.
i agree with you and from someone who lives in israel i appreciate ur objective point of view even if i dont agree with everything and btw we do have nukes but we will never use them guess they are just for the image...

Quote:
Israel also sees the land as God-given. And their radicals would be more than happy to get rid of all those non-Israeli civilians in the land handed to them by the god. You cannot act based on the views of the radicals. And, the only way to force that is to not give them a reason to make people follow those ridiculous statements.
wow thats not true some arabs and christians do live here and we dont harm them at all. I am tried of remainding that the palastiains are the ones who didnt agree to split the country 60-40 to them in 1947 and we did.

Quote:
So, does that give you the right to bomb those threatened civilians together with the terrorists? On the opposite, you should be a lot more careful in such cases. Do we see that? I don't believe we do.
u r so right we r suppose to sit and do nothing while they bomb us. its not like we want to kill civilians but its that or we do nothing and let them keep atking us and why is that cos the hamas doesnt care about the civilans and dont really care if they die.

Quote:
I have never said Hamas is right. But, one is a terrorist organization, the other is a state. You cannot, as a state, have pissing fight with a terrorist organization, to see who will kill the most. If Israel has really intended to get rid of the Hamas, they know the only way to achieve that is to have peace. You don't need to be a genius to see that much.
they dont want "peace" the whole idea of this operation is only to get them to stop firing rocks if they did that there would have been peace a long time ago, so what do they do they ask for unreasonable requests to show that they do want peace and its not our fault.

Quote:
I think what I am saying is closer to truth than what the Israel officials are saying. The truth is they don't care about the civilians there. The truth is Israel people are glad the Palestinians are dying that. The truth is the more lives are lost in Palestine, the higher the support is for the government in Israel. And for Hamas rockets not finding their targets, it is not really luck. Exchange the shooters for those rockets with the best shooters in the world, and you will still not get a higher death count.
The hamas is the one who doesnt care about the civilians, they use them as shield they dont protect them they only protect themselfs they shot rocks from shelters so we would kill inocent ppl and i wouldnt say that the ppl of israel are glad palestinians dying(and i mean inocent ones).
TUndead is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:15   Link #290
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
the fatah is recognized intertnationally as the official representetive of the palestinian people
and its not likely to fall in the west bank (israeli presence there is too strong)
the hamas was only able to pull off their coup in gaza becouse there was no israeli presence there
so thats not something to worry about too much
people speak out against the attacks in gaza becouse there really IS a reason to be upset about it (there are over 800 deaths there)
but that does not change the question of what should be done to solve the problem.
as long as the hamas rules gaza and continues to act with violence there is not room for peace talks
if the hamas is shown however to be a failure as both a resistance force and a goverment (while the fatah is making the west bank a proper place to live in)
they wont have a long time
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:17   Link #291
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem
I think that's too basic. My reply to this is the same as I said to Shadow_Minato - the fact that Hamas is fighting against a much-better equipped army is not a showing of desperation, because there are at least two other places in the world where the exact same thing is happening on a day-to-day basis (Afghanistan and Iraq).
Umm, I don't think that's the best example to use when trying to argue that Palestinians aren't desperate. Iraqis aren't in the best of positions after the US invaded and made the situation there a lot worse than it was.

And I don't think it's the exact same thing, either. I insist that you're too quick to label them as evil warmongering terrorists and Israel as some sort of victim, when the difference of power between the two countries makes it very obvious that someone is doing something pretty wrong if "hundreds and hundreds of Israelite civilians are dying" (which is complete and utter nonsense).

Quote:
While I would not disagree with the statement that the Palestinians feel that Israel is occupying their land and treating them unfairly, I don't think that all Palestinians feel that violence should be brought on Israel, or that Israel should be wiped out.
Are both things mutually exclusive?

Quote:
Why should it matter whether the ratio of deaths is 1:1 or 1:1000 in terms of civilians? A single civilian killed on either side is too many. Yes, Israel is better-prepared for missile strikes and yes, they have better equipment. We know that. What Israel does not have is an impenetrable shield against rockets, nor do they have a sniper rifle with such range and accuracy that they can retaliate against Hamas militants without hurting anyone else or damaging any surrounding buildings.

I keep asking this question and I get no response: what do you expect Israel to do?
Give them their damn land already. Stop the blockade. Let them get access to water. Let them live however the hell they want. If Israel really wanted to protect their people, they would've done that a long, long time ago.

As it stands, I can safely say Israel knows perfectly that their civilian casualties do nothing but give them the perfect excuse (well, not so perfect, since not even conservative US media is siding so much with them in this case) to completely annihilate Palestine.

Quote:
That's a dangerous statement to make. Firstly, I don't believe it's true - I would imagine that most Jewish groups sided with McCain in the most recent US presidential election, and yet Obama was completely fawned over by the media. It's dangerous because if anyone truly believes that then it opens the door to anti-Jewish sentiment in general. The media says something you don't like or disagree with? "Damn those Jews, putting their Jewish spin on everything." That's not to say that certain media forms can be biased, but let's call them biased simply because they're biased and not because they're run by a certain group of people.
Eh, I don't mind Jews. In fact, I have many Jew friends (not the crazy orthodox type though), and theoretically speaking, I should be Jewish since my mother's mother was Jewish. However, I have also heard a couple of times from Jewish mouths that, were a war between Israel and Argentina break out, most Jews born and raised here as such would side with Israel. There's a certain sense of belonging, of separation from the rest of the world which is extremely strong within the Jewish community.

And, if you allow me the personal jab, it's making you say things I never thought you'd say before.

Quote:
You almost make it sound as if Israel's killing of unarmed civilians (which includes children) is intentional and done out of retaliation. You do realize that isn't the case, I'm sure. Israel is only lucky that none of the children within its borders have been killed by rocket fire. If that were to happen, what would you be saying then?
Come on, don't you think Israel knows perfectly what they're doing? 830 deaths, almost 300 children. Over 3000 wounded. It only fuels terrorism and extend the danger to their people.

The numbers speak for themselves. We're not in the face of a preemptive strike against terrorism. We're facing a genocide.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:25   Link #292
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Give them their damn land already. Stop the blockade. Let them get access to water. Let them live however the hell they want. If Israel really wanted to protect their people, they would've done that a long, long time ago.

As it stands, I can safely say Israel knows perfectly that their civilian casualties do nothing but give them the perfect excuse (well, not so perfect, since not even conservative US media is siding so much with them in this case) to completely annihilate Palestine.
pulling all their settelments out of gaza 3 years ago as a first step and a show of good will was answered by the hamas forcefully taking over and starting to pump weapons into the strip like its an armory (using every means they can, both land and sea)
your not likely to see israel making any other gestures of good faith like that until they get something for it

and for the last time
THERE IS NO PALESTINE
one day there may be a palestinian state with that name
for now however.... that day is getting farther away with every rocket
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:26   Link #293
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
and for the last time
THERE IS NO PALESTINE
one day there may be a palestinian state with that name
for now however....
What. The. Hell.

So a bunch of people sharing a history of hundreds of years living in the same place, completely unrelated to Israel, does not qualify as a country?

Quote:
pulling all their settelments out of gaza 3 years ago as a first step and a show of good will was answered by the hamas forcefully taking over and starting to pump weapons into the strip like its an armory
your not likely to see israel making any other gestures of good faith like that until they get something for it
Umm, yeah, pulling off the military while maintaining the blockade is an act of good faith. "We won't bomb you to death for now, but you'll starve anyways! Yay!".
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:28   Link #294
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
What. The. Hell.

So a bunch of people sharing a history of hundreds of years living in the same place, completely unrelated to Israel, does not qualify as a country?
NO
its not a country.
not yet
just like israel wasnt a country before 1948

and the "blockade" is in place becouse they keep firing rockets
not the otherway around
and last time i checked in any other place on earth this would be called a BORDER, not a blockade
and no one is starving anyone in gaza (the israeli's, EVEN NOW, make it a point to let food and medicene get into the strip every day)
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:30   Link #295
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
NO
its not a country.
not yet
just like israel wasnt a country before 1948
Umm, on what basis do you say that? Sure, Israel doesn't recognize it as a country, and it doesn't have the support of the most powerful country in the world to set up their official status as such just like Israel had in their time (and in a pretty shady turn of events, too), but surely you understand that we're talking about over a million people who don't feel are Israelites and don't want to live as such?

Quote:
and the "blockade" is in place becouse they keep firing rockets
not the otherway around
That's a very simplistic look at it.

If they really wanted to protect themselves from rockets, they would have given the Palestinian people what they wanted. They would've given them a country of their own. Not a country-sized ghetto.

Quote:
and last time i checked in any other place on earth this would be called a BORDER, not a blockade
and no one is starving anyone in gaza (the israeli's, EVEN NOW, make it a point to let food and medicene get into the strip every day)
Umm, yeah, "here, we don't recognize you as a country, we're not letting anyone help you, but have a couple of breadcrumbs". I don't think you're in a position to assert that no one in Palestine is starving because of the blockade.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:39   Link #296
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Give them their damn land already. Stop the blockade. Let them get access to water. Let them live however the hell they want. If Israel really wanted to protect their people, they would've done that a long, long time ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
pulling all their settelments out of gaza 3 years ago as a first step and a show of good will was answered by the hamas forcefully taking over and starting to pump weapons into the strip like its an armory (using every means they can, both land and sea)
your not likely to see israel making any other gestures of good faith like that until they get something for it
Sadly, I side with bladeofdarkness. With reference to BBC News:
Quote:
Hamas' decision to stand in Palestinian Authority legislative council elections in 2006 was a major departure for the movement and had a profound impact on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Top figures said the move reflected Hamas' importance in the Palestinian sphere and the need for it to address failing political structures beset by (Fatah's) corruption, inefficiency and lost credibility.

Aside from its much-vaunted incorruptibility, Hamas campaigned forcefully on its claim that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in the summer of 2005 was a victory for its commitment to armed conflict with the Israelis.
=========

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Come on, don't you think Israel knows perfectly what they're doing? 830 deaths, almost 300 children. Over 3000 wounded. It only fuels terrorism and extend the danger to their people.

The numbers speak for themselves. We're not in the face of a preemptive strike against terrorism. We're facing a genocide.
Shame on you. That's a deliberately inflammatory remark based on flimsy opinion. If Israel wanted a genocide, it could have just carpet bombed Gaza, civilians be damned.
TinyRedLeaf is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 10:39   Link #297
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Umm, on what basis do you say that? Sure, Israel doesn't recognize it as a country, and it doesn't have the support of the most powerful country in the world to set up their official status as such just like Israel had in their time (and in a pretty shady turn of events, too), but surely you understand that we're talking about over a million people who don't feel are Israelites and don't want to live as such?
no country on earth recognizes it as a country
and its not a member of the UN (united nations)
becouse its not one (a nation)
its a piece of land that belongs to no country ATM
it used to be part of the otomen empire until it desolved in WWI
after that the entire area had been divided into several countries (jorden, syria, lebanon and israel)
there was supposed to be another country in the area that would be what you would call palestine which would include the west bank and gaza (the UN divided the area)
but the arabs rejected the plan in favor of just destroying israel completely and taking the entire area for them selves
that didnt turn out the way they planned and israel survived
the west bank was taken by jorden and the gaza strip by egapt
but neither annexed them
in 1967 israel took both areas from the two countries but didn annex them either (except jerusalem)
as it stands the gaza strip and the west bank is not a country
there are plans to make it one some day (under the name palestine)
but its under a conditional peace accord with israel

so NO, ITS NOT A COUNTRY
not as far as the entire world is concerned

Quote:
If they really wanted to protect themselves from rockets, they would have given the Palestinian people what they wanted. They would've given them a country of their own. Not a country-sized ghetto.
spoken like a true someone who doesnt live in the mid east (where turning the other cheek is a nice way to get your ass f^&ked)
the idea is very simple
land for peace (as in a peace accord, signed)
no peace, no land

Quote:
Umm, yeah, "here, we don't recognize you as a country, we're not letting anyone help you, but have a couple of breadcrumbs". I don't think you're in a position to assert that no one in Palestine is starving because of the blockade.
they arent a country
and no one wants to help them (in terms of fire power at least, they get aid work)
and the international aid that we let in IS keeping people from starving , dont belittle it
__________________

Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2009-01-11 at 11:12.
bladeofdarkness is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 11:31   Link #298
MonkeyDude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
This seems to be a hot topic in the forums I frequent (lurk). There are a couple of articles posted and I think I should share it with some of the debaters here.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...articleId=4715

http://www.countercurrents.org/falk070707.htm

Some quotes worthy of mention: (in case you don't want to click it)

"As unacceptable as is this earlier part of the story, a dramatic turn for the worse occurred when Hamas prevailed in the January 2006 national legislative elections. It is a bitter irony that Hamas was encouraged, especially by Washington, to participate in the elections to show its commitment to a political process (as an alternative to violence) and then was badly punished for having the temerity to succeed. These elections were internationally monitored under the leadership of the former American president, Jimmy Carter, and pronounced as completely fair.

After winning the Palestinian elections, Hamas was castigated as a terrorist organization that had not renounced violence against Israel and had refused to recognize the Jewish state as a legitimate political entity. In fact, the behavior and outlook of Hamas is quite different. From the outset of its political Hamas was ready to work with other Palestinian groups, especially Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas, to establish a 'unity' government. More than this, their leadership revealed a willingness to move toward an acceptance of Israel's existence if Israel would in turn agree to move back to its 1967 borders, implementing finally unanimous Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

Even more dramatically, Hamas proposed a ten-year truce with Israel, and went so far as to put in place a unilateral ceasefire that lasted for eighteen months, and was broken only to engage in rather pathetic strikes mainly taking place in response to Israeli violent provocations in Gaza. As Efraim Halevi, former head of Israel's Mossad was reported to have said, 'What Israel needs from Hamas is an end to violence, not diplomatic recognition.' And this is precisely what Hamas offered and what Israel rejected.

Instead of trying diplomacy and respecting democratic results, Israel and the United States used their leverage to reverse the outcome of the 2006 elections by organizing a variety of international efforts designed to make Hamas fail in its attempts to govern in Gaza. Such efforts were reinforced by the related unwillingness of the defeated Fatah elements to cooperate with Hamas in establishing a government that would be representative of Palestinians as a whole. The main anti-Hamas tactic relied upon was to support Abbas as the sole legitimate leader of the Palestinian people, to impose an economic boycott on the Palestinians generally, to send in weapons for Fatah militias and to enlist neighbors in these efforts, particularly Egypt and Jordan. The United States Government appointed a special envoy, Lt. Gen. Keith Dayton, to work with Abbas forces, and helped channel $40 million to buildup the Presidential Guard, which were the Fatah forces associated with Abbas."

Take it as you will, but this all seems to have started after Israel's invasion of Gaza/Palestine (whatever you want to call it) for the establishment of more Jewish communities as well as the relocation of the Palestinian people to their own 'ghettos'. This rings a bell to a certain event that led to the creation of an Israeli state to begin with. Hmm, I wonder what event that could be?

I've read numerous articles (some skimmed since there are a lot to read), some pro-Hamas and some Pro-Israeli, and I can draw to the conclusion that Israel needs to GTFO. That would be the rather simple solution to this, but given that they've already invested on infrastructure on their invaded land, the only real solution now is to get Hamas to accept that their 'prison' now is the official borders of their 'country'. I wouldn't be surprised if they just go ahead for a full-scale invasion of the damn strip. Though given that the eyes of the world are upon them, they will have to settle to beating them into submission to accept their harsh demands.

Establish a puppet government rather than your own DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT and we're cool! So laughable...yet sad that we are supposed to be civilized human beings.
MonkeyDude is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 11:41   Link #299
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
i wont comment on most of the stuff you wrote becouse after seeing you post stuff like

Quote:
Take it as you will, but this all seems to have started after Israel's invasion of Gaza/Palestine (whatever you want to call it) for the establishment of more Jewish communities as well as the relocation of the Palestinian people to their own 'ghettos'. This rings a bell to a certain event that led to the creation of an Israeli state to begin with. Hmm, I wonder what event that could be?
there isnt much of a point
since you clearly understand nothing of whats actually going down there
but i will say this

the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT's first move in gaza ended up being
lining the oppositon against the wall and shooting them
they then proceded to start knee-caping anyone who spoke out against them
and executing anyone who opposed them under the pretense that they collaborate with israel

the hamas may have been elected democratically
but so was the nazi party
you can be democratically elected and still be the bane of your own people
as the poor people of gaza are now learning
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline  
Old 2009-01-11, 11:52   Link #300
MonkeyDude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
The whole purpose of that post was for you and anyone else to read the aforementioned articles and form your own conclusions based on them. You obviously didn't read them and would rather target my opinions instead of what we can consider facts.

I'll quote more since you obviously didn't click.

"This was a particularly disgraceful policy. Fatah militias, especially in Gaza, had long been wildly corrupt and often used their weapons to terrorize their adversaries and intimidate the population in a variety of thuggish ways. It was this pattern of abuse by Fatah that was significantly responsible for the Hamas victory in the 2006 elections, along with the popular feelings that Fatah, as a political actor, had neither the will nor capacity to achieve results helpful to the Palestinian people, while Hamas had managed resistance and community service efforts that were widely admired by Gazans.

...

The insidious new turn of Israeli occupation policy is as follows: push Abbas to rely on hard-line no compromise approach toward Hamas, highlighted by the creation of an unelected 'emergency' government to replace the elected leadership. The emergency designated prime minister, Salam Fayyad, appointed to replace the Hamas leader, Ismail Haniya, as head of the Palestinian Authority. It is revealing to recall that when Fayyad's party was on the 2006 election list its candidates won only 2% of the vote. Israel is also reportedly ready to ease some West Bank restrictions on movement in such a way as to convince Palestinians that they can have a better future if they repudiate Hamas and place their bets on Abbas, by now a most discredited political figure who has substantially sold out the Palestinian cause to gain favor and support from Israel/United States, as well as to prevail in the internal Palestinian power struggle."

I understand nothing because I inherently know nothing. I now know something because I took the time to read informative articles based on events PRIOR to the rather major Israeli offensive of today.

Haha bring the Nazi party into this? If you'll play that card, I'll play the striking resemblance of a genocide being committed to the Palestinian people. That should be something the Jewish population of Israel would be well aware of, but are more than willing to repeat history for the sake of land they don't own. The displacement of a certain group of people from their homes to live in what is considered the world's largest prison, another striking similarity!

"It is this prospect that makes appropriate the warning of a Palestinian holocaust in the making, and should remind the world of the famous post-Nazi pledge of 'never again.'"
MonkeyDude is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.