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Old 2009-01-05, 07:03   Link #21
TUndead
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
The roots of this go back far more than 8 years...

As for your comparison to 9-11, what the US did wasn't a smart move. The details are best left to another discussion though. Pointing to it doesn't help your case.

Also, you can't blame Hamas for the civilians Israeli bombs kill. I don't know about Gaza, but in 2006 during the invasion of Lebanon, Israel used clusterbombs over civilian areas. Not exactly the actions of a nation concerned with avoiding civilian casualties. They might not be using clusterbombs now, in all honesty I haven't heard anything on it, but you have to understand, the civilians have nowhere to go. The border with Israel is obviously closed, as is the border with Egypt. Unless the have a boat, they're not going anywhere. Even if Hamas is using innocent people as human shields, in the end it's the Israelis who make the decision to drop the bombs.

It's easy to dismiss Hamas as just a bunch of terrorists, but the Palestinians do have legitimate grievencies with Israel. Instead of blaming each other for everything, Israel and the Palestinians need to realize something. Both of you are wrong. Both sides to stop pointing fingers at each other and come to terms with what they did, then stop doing it again. That's the only way to move forward.
what u dont uderstand is that we did ask for the firing to stop and no we didnt atk them for 8 years because of this, israel have delayed its atk because of the world look what people here r saying and i saw much worse soo what is the resolt? they atk us which is somewhat ok for the world because they r terrorist but if we defend ourself's we r the "bad guy's" what, what do u expect us to do... they r willing to die just to kill us, how do u fight that. they prefer dying then cease fire with us. so what , what should we do let them continue atk us?
and btw there are about 5 arabic country's near israel and there are moslims and arabic's all over the world so why are they in israel, well first is to kill us(yes its that simple) 2nd no 1 will take them and do u get how idiotic it is that their ppl wont accept them but we their "enemy's" should, well this just doesnt make sense does it?
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Old 2009-01-05, 08:03   Link #22
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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Target?.... What target? If you mean Hamas' hideouts and/or potential bunkers, then one has to level down all buildings in the area, civilian or whatsoever. This is, in fact, a total war, which is to say either one must destroy everything, what Israel has been doing under the disguise of collateral damage, or surrender.
The target would be whatever area they want to occupy. Softening it would be to destroy whatever they'd use to defend it. Like, you know, policemen, ammunition warehouses... Sure, they can't get it all from the sky. Doesn't mean it's not a good idea to get started from there.
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Old 2009-01-05, 08:42   Link #23
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Originally Posted by TUndead View Post
what u dont uderstand is that we did ask for the firing to stop and no we didnt atk them for 8 years because of this, israel have delayed its atk because of the world look what people here r saying and i saw much worse soo what is the resolt? they atk us which is somewhat ok for the world because they r terrorist but if we defend ourself's we r the "bad guy's" what, what do u expect us to do... they r willing to die just to kill us, how do u fight that. they prefer dying then cease fire with us. so what , what should we do let them continue atk us?
and btw there are about 5 arabic country's near israel and there are moslims and arabic's all over the world so why are they in israel, well first is to kill us(yes its that simple) 2nd no 1 will take them and do u get how idiotic it is that their ppl wont accept them but we their "enemy's" should, well this just doesnt make sense does it?
So you're saying Israel has not attacked Palestinians prior to this in the past 8 years? Care to back that up? Even a quick look reveals at least 5 major operations in the Gaza strip and west bank in that timeframe.

Further, it's not only actual attacks. Since 2002, Israel has been building a wall around the Gaza Strip and effectively blockading the place. Israel has cut electricity and blocked shipments of industrial desiel fuel in the Gaza strip. Israel called for democratic elections in Palestine and when a group they didn't like won, they pulled out of the peace talks. Palestinians aren't killing Israels for fun. They feel like they have no choice.

I'll say this clearly and in bold. Neither side is right. It's time you both stopped blaming the other side for all the problems and accept your own responsibility in the conflict. Both sides need to stop demonizing the other side and realize that the guys on the other side aren't that much different from you. If it seems unfair that a lot of people are calling on Israel to take the first step, that's only because Israel is in a much much better position to do so.

As for your whole "why are they in Israel" thing, it's because they live there and their families have lived there for hundreds, if not thousands of years. They, for the most part, didn't immigrate there after the modern state of Israel was founded.
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Old 2009-01-05, 10:43   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Nice false dichotomy there. Even if it was a total war, there would be other options than destroy everything or surrender, like say a negotiated settlement. In fact, even if it's not a total war that negotiated settlement thing still sounds like a good idea. Of course to accomplish that, both sides need to admit they share some of the blame and sit down to actually talk.
I only list good solutions. Anything from that is total bull that will either drag the s*** to only-god-knows-how-long, civilian sufferings in which span would be worse. And it's not total war? Tell me, what is the reason for killing those "innocent," (collateral damage? lol? throwing a grenade into a hut to kill a rat surely cause collateral damage) and cripple anything within the reach of either side? If Israel is like China, this would've ended long ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh Minh
The target would be whatever area they want to occupy. Softening it would be to destroy whatever they'd use to defend it. Like, you know, policemen, ammunition warehouses... Sure, they can't get it all from the sky. Doesn't mean it's not a good idea to get started from there.
Unless they want to occupy the whole Gaza, there is no reason to do so because well, the settlements you mention are kinda non-existent by our standards, for anything could replace them. What is terrible about the idea is possible reactions from other country. It simply doesn't worth it, just carpet-bombing instead...
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Old 2009-01-05, 11:21   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
So you're saying Israel has not attacked Palestinians prior to this in the past 8 years? Care to back that up? Even a quick look reveals at least 5 major operations in the Gaza strip and west bank in that timeframe.

Further, it's not only actual attacks. Since 2002, Israel has been building a wall around the Gaza Strip and effectively blockading the place. Israel has cut electricity and blocked shipments of industrial desiel fuel in the Gaza strip. Israel called for democratic elections in Palestine and when a group they didn't like won, they pulled out of the peace talks. Palestinians aren't killing Israels for fun. They feel like they have no choice.

I'll say this clearly and in bold. Neither side is right. It's time you both stopped blaming the other side for all the problems and accept your own responsibility in the conflict. Both sides need to stop demonizing the other side and realize that the guys on the other side aren't that much different from you. If it seems unfair that a lot of people are calling on Israel to take the first step, that's only because Israel is in a much much better position to do so.

As for your whole "why are they in Israel" thing, it's because they live there and their families have lived there for hundreds, if not thousands of years. They, for the most part, didn't immigrate there after the modern state of Israel was founded.
Yes they do if they have stoped lunching rockets we would have stoped a long time ago... look im not saying we r perfect god know we made more then a few mistakes but this operation is just, we really didnt have any choise and i would like to see any other country live near people who actually would die and i mean some of them tie bombs to them selfs and blow up and not do anything. and if any other country in the world would have done it i can promise that there would be 80% less complaints about it
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Old 2009-01-05, 19:39   Link #26
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The Hamas is as much responsible for their deaths as the Isrealis.
Oh great, so now all Palestinians are terrorists. What's next? Iranians?

I'm sure Obama would like that to be true.
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Old 2009-01-05, 19:49   Link #27
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Oh great, so now all Palestinians are terrorists. What's next? Iranians?

I'm sure Obama would like that to be true.
Not sure if I'm misunderstanding the context here, but Hamas != all Palenstinians...
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Old 2009-01-05, 20:40   Link #28
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It was kinda the point of my post. They're blowing the shit out of civilians while arguing that they're attacking terrorists.
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Old 2009-01-05, 20:42   Link #29
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On that cramped strip, you can't hit anything military without hitting anything civilian. Well, not that Hamas is also setting up shop in some civilian areas.
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Old 2009-01-05, 20:45   Link #30
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Well, then stop attacking them. Or are you going to justify the civilian deaths?
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Old 2009-01-05, 20:48   Link #31
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No, I won't justify the civilian deaths. As my past posts indicate, I think a "wasteland" solution is what we need, if both sides don't see the need to negotiate. If no man can live there, maybe they'll stop bombing the crap out of each other.
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Old 2009-01-05, 21:02   Link #32
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
It was kinda the point of my post. They're blowing the shit out of civilians while arguing that they're attacking terrorists.
Unfortunately, Hamas isn't about to go and set up "shop" in some deserted area where there isn't anyone around but themselves. That's pretty much a death sentence for them. By setting themselves up in a civilian populated area, anyone who comes after the bomb and rocket factories must also risk collateral damage of innocent people's homes, hospitals/clinics, schools and mosques. Thereby causing others outside of the region to go upset over the innocent lives being lost and whatnot...

Pinpoint attacks with laser-guided bombs and drone-fired rockets don't work too well, esp. when you often need human intelligence on the ground to identify your targets, and how are you going to reach those targets in the first place if they are placed in mosques and etc.?
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Old 2009-01-05, 21:16   Link #33
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Well, then stop attacking them. Or are you going to justify the civilian deaths?
how about telling Hamas to stop firing rockets?
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Old 2009-01-05, 21:36   Link #34
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I only list good solutions. Anything from that is total bull that will either drag the s*** to only-god-knows-how-long, civilian sufferings in which span would be worse. And it's not total war? Tell me, what is the reason for killing those "innocent," (collateral damage? lol? throwing a grenade into a hut to kill a rat surely cause collateral damage) and cripple anything within the reach of either side? If Israel is like China, this would've ended long ago.
Either of those "solutions" involves kicking millions out of their homes. Any solution that involves turning mass numbers into refugees is a bad one. A negotiated settlement on the other hand...

As for your collateral damage mean total war nonsense, the Israelis don't seem to be going out of their way to kill civilians or not kill them. It's more that they don't care one way or the other and won't let the presense of civilians deter their operations. If it was a total war, the deathtoll would be much higher.

More, I question your thought process that leads to the conclusion that a few rocket attacks that do minimal damage warrents a total war.

Quote:
Yes they do if they have stoped lunching rockets we would have stoped a long time ago... look im not saying we r perfect god know we made more then a few mistakes but this operation is just, we really didnt have any choise and i would like to see any other country live near people who actually would die and i mean some of them tie bombs to them selfs and blow up and not do anything. and if any other country in the world would have done it i can promise that there would be 80% less complaints about it
Actually, they did stop. There was a ceasefire that ended last month. There may have been some rocket attacks during that ceasefire, but they were small scale and unorganized, and there were small scale Israeli military raids as well, so both sides were in violation there. In an oversimplification, Israel didn't ease up on the blockade like they agreed to, so Hamas resumed the rocket attacks after the ceasefire expired. There are also reports that the Israeli government began planning this operation during the talks for the last ceasefire and would have carred out the strikes regardless of whether Hamas resumed the rocket attacks, though I'm unsure of how credible they are.
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Old 2009-01-05, 21:41   Link #35
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Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
Unfortunately, Hamas isn't about to go and set up "shop" in some deserted area where there isn't anyone around but themselves. That's pretty much a death sentence for them. By setting themselves up in a civilian populated area, anyone who comes after the bomb and rocket factories must also risk collateral damage of innocent people's homes, hospitals/clinics, schools and mosques. Thereby causing others outside of the region to go upset over the innocent lives being lost and whatnot...

Pinpoint attacks with laser-guided bombs and drone-fired rockets don't work too well, esp. when you often need human intelligence on the ground to identify your targets, and how are you going to reach those targets in the first place if they are placed in mosques and etc.?

Last time I checked, no matter how "evi" the criminals are, most police and law enforcement don't just say "oh for christ's sake, just bomb the whole building".

Well, unless you're in Russia of course.
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Old 2009-01-05, 21:53   Link #36
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Unfortunately, Hamas isn't about to go and set up "shop" in some deserted area where there isn't anyone around but themselves. That's pretty much a death sentence for them. By setting themselves up in a civilian populated area, anyone who comes after the bomb and rocket factories must also risk collateral damage of innocent people's homes, hospitals/clinics, schools and mosques. Thereby causing others outside of the region to go upset over the innocent lives being lost and whatnot...

Pinpoint attacks with laser-guided bombs and drone-fired rockets don't work too well, esp. when you often need human intelligence on the ground to identify your targets, and how are you going to reach those targets in the first place if they are placed in mosques and etc.?
Oh right, they're hiding, so let's just bomb the whole place anyways.

Gets rid of those annoying Palestinians who just want to get recognized as a country, too. Bonus track!
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Old 2009-01-05, 21:59   Link #37
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@WK: You know what? That is actually not a bad idea. Turn the Gaza Strip into wasteland and give the whole of the West Bank for a Palestine state. 360 sq. km for 5600+ sq. km. Sounds like a good deal to me.
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Old 2009-01-05, 22:03   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Either of those "solutions" involves kicking millions out of their homes. Any solution that involves turning mass numbers into refugees is a bad one. A negotiated settlement on the other hand...
Negotiate till when? And when they comfort themselves by the act of negotiating, people continue to die. The more they die, the harder it is to come to any agreement. Plus, Both sides propose terms that they know the other won't accept. And if it happens that both leaders succeed in settling down an agreement, such peace will be easily shattered by a miss-fired bullet, and hell breaks out. Everything goes back to number 0.
Quote:
As for your collateral damage mean total war nonsense, the Israelis don't seem to be going out of their way to kill civilians or not kill them.
They don't care, which is the sign of a nation in a total war. They go out to kill "enemies." Who is the enemy? "Enemy is enemy, when we see we kill and that's it." "What is that building?" "Don't know. Don't care. But if Hamas occupies it, we blow it up." "Who's that man?" "Who gives a rat. If he is a terrorist, he will be gone." "What is a terrorist?" "Everyone is a potential one."

Be honest with themselves. After sometimes, no one will care. People are all hypocrites.
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Old 2009-01-05, 22:09   Link #39
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Well, then stop attacking them. Or are you going to justify the civilian deaths?
Hamas is special in that it is both a terrorist organization and a humanitarian organization. From what I understand they provide aid to the locals. They're an organized group who perform community service projects and attempt to help people. I'm sure that's one valid arm of the group. The other is the militant end. It's likely that the two are very closely linked, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were non-militant members of Hamas who signed on originally for the civilian aid side. How do you easily distinguish them from the militants? It's not like rocket launchers are welded onto the arms of the militants. It also isn't as if Hamas is making an effort to keep civilians out of this. If you fire a rocket from a rooftop of an apartment building, what do you think will happen?

Hamas (and groups like it) represents a special challenge. You can't simply destroy them by force, because they've become an integral part of the community that they arose from and likely have much local support. Even if they're temporarily removed, it's likely that the local anger would either rebuild the group or give rise to others like it. The solution would seemingly be to not respond to their attacks at all and instead try to outdo their good deeds so as to win the favor of the local population, but that presents other problems. For one, the Israeli population won't stand for it - they're being attacked, and they expect their government to do something about it (and that doesn't mean giving handouts to the aggressive population). Another, the lack of retaliation would likely embolden Hamas to scale up their attacks and try to do something even worse. In the short term, lack of retaliation on Israel's part would probably be quite bad. In the long term it's probably the only viable solution to peace.

As I have ties to Israel I may be biased, but I feel that the Palestinian militants are the aggressors. I don't care to discuss who owned the land originally - it's a bit late for that. Israel's retaliations have not always been justified, and many of them have seemingly been sloppy, but what else can they do? Palestinians do successfully work and assimilate into Israeli society; it isn't that Israel is out to get the Palestinians, but they are attempting to protect their population. The wall that they're building is a defensive measure, not one designed to harm the Palestinians. If the Palestinian militants ceased their aggressions then the Israeli retaliations would end, as well. Whether Israel would cooperate in attempting to help the Palestinians or not at that point can only be theorized, and if the Palestinians still felt that they were being shafted and that their requests were reasonable then armed force would be the way to go. As things are now I don't think it's fair to claim that Israel is against Palestinians entirely when their population is actively coming under attack practically each day.
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Old 2009-01-05, 22:32   Link #40
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Negotiate till when? And when they comfort themselves by the act of negotiating, people continue to die. The more they die, the harder it is to come to any agreement. Plus, Both sides propose terms that they know the other won't accept. And if it happens that both leaders succeed in settling down an agreement, such peace will be easily shattered by a miss-fired bullet, and hell breaks out. Everything goes back to number 0.
Yet neither side launched a major attack while the last ceasefire was in place, despite numorous provocations from both sides. They both waited until it expired before resuming the attacks. That in itself shows that a peace might not be as fragile as you seem to think. Plus this whole war thing hasn't exactly solved things now has it?

Quote:
They don't care, which is the sign of a nation in a total war. They go out to kill "enemies." Who is the enemy? "Enemy is enemy, when we see we kill and that's it." "What is that building?" "Don't know. Don't care. But if Hamas occupies it, we blow it up." "Who's that man?" "Who gives a rat. If he is a terrorist, he will be gone." "What is a terrorist?" "Everyone is a potential one."
No, in a total war civilian populations are deliberately targeted. There's a difference between saying, "we're going to hit these targets regardless of whether or not there are civlians in the area" and "we're going to target civlians directly." Israel isn't just hitting random buildings, they in fact spent a great deal of time picking out targets using intelligence resources on the ground prior to the attack.

Quote:
Be honest with themselves. After sometimes, no one will care. People are all hypocrites.
So no one will care makes things ok?
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