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Old 2009-01-23, 16:14   Link #781
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
]and what annoys me is that you are judging this wrongly
you are saying hamas does this on one hand
and israel does that on the other hand
and thats completely missing the point
What exactly is this point? That Israel's completely innocent and anyone who thinks otherwise is at best falling for Hamas' propaganda?
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Old 2009-01-23, 16:27   Link #782
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
What exactly is this point? That Israel's completely innocent and anyone who thinks otherwise is at best falling for Hamas' propaganda?
the point is that israeli tactics are a result of hamas tactics
they are the product of people in the IDF sitting down and saying "this is what hamas is doing, how do we deal with it"
hamas plants mines and IED along the streets
israel responds by using bulldozers to clear the way
hamas sets up ambushes inside houses
israel responds by knocking down houses instead of sending troops in
hamas hides weapon stashs in homes
israel responds by bombing those homes (after warning the people to GTFO)

notice that if you go around and try thinking it as
hamas are trying to think "this is how israel works, how do we deal with this" you end up showing them for the monsters they are

@Vexx
if you believed that the hamas mearly represents the views of the palestinian people as a whole and acts in their name
would you still have a problem with us fighting them ?
the votes seem to impley that to be the case
is there something wrong with two peoples who have a conflict going to war ?

the PR battle is lost to begin with
we dont try and wage it on the public stage, but on the goverment stage
why do you think the leaders of half of europe were in olmarts home for a dinner party 24 hours after the cease-fire
why do you think eygpt agrees to help stop smuggling
we dont aim at the public (we try, but the world by default supports the poor basterds)

you know perfectly well that hamas are evil (not the palestinians, hamas specificlly)
not "well intentionad extremsts" or "knight templar" evil
full on dog-raping-baby-eating-evil
you know that they booby trap homes, and schools, and in one very odd case- a petting zoo (IDF forces actually took care of the animals to keep them from starving to death)
they plant mines and IED's in the street and on roads inside the city and refugee camps
they intentioanlly dont wear uniforms, thus making it hard to tell who is a civilian and who isnt, putting civilains at risk
they force their way into people's homes and fire from their rooftops hoping to increase the death toll (read: murder the family with israeli tank shells)
they drag children with them in the street hoping that their ENEMY would avoid hurting them to spare the kids (can you imagne it working the other way around)
they convince teenagers (who are by nature easy to convince) to strap explosives to themselves and go kill other women and children with legends of heaven
they teach children that jews are apes and pigs and that god hates them and wants them to die
in fact they teach children that the best they can asspire to become on this earth as a martyr
they shoot anyone who speaks out against them in the back of the knees to criple them for life (and if someone actualy ACTS against them they kill them out right)
they loot UN aid trucks that are sent with food and medicene
they use crowded places where people gather as combat positions becosue it would make the ENEMY less likely to hit them there
they intentioanlly violate international law and use ambulances to transport troops and weapons (thus putting all ambulances at risk of being hit)

and thats the things they do to THEIR OWN PEOPLE
thats not even counting what they do to US


name an international war crime and they have commited it

you know all those things
but you nevertheless complain about israeli action as if we are on the same moral ground
the best accusation that you can level at israel and the IDF is that you dont think they try HARD ENOUGH to prevent civilian deaths on the ENEMY side
dont you think that there is something slightly odd with that one ?
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Old 2009-01-23, 16:37   Link #783
Demongod86
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The fact is this:

The rules of war are a joke. Especially because Hamas was elected with an overwhelming majority.

You receive consequences as the result of who you vote for.

Rather than suicide-bombing Israel, those Palestinians can suicide-bomb Hamas for making life even worse than when Fatah was in power.

And as for the ideologies that every life is precious, how about this:

No nation should ever be responsible in any way, shape, or form for providing another nation with anything. If Gazans hate Israel so much, Israel should just cut off all food, water, and electricity it provides, and tell Hamas to provide that for their own people and see how far things go.
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Old 2009-01-23, 16:40   Link #784
Mystery777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
What exactly is this point? That Israel's completely innocent and anyone who thinks otherwise is at best falling for Hamas' propaganda?
Yes. And anti-semitic! LOL!
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Old 2009-01-23, 16:47   Link #785
Demongod86
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Exactly, actually. Because Israel is a JEWISH state. And know what kinds of protests happen when Israel does something wrong?

DEATH TO ALL JUICE!

BOYCOTT THE JEWS!

"GO BACK TO THE OVENS!"

So yes, you *are* antisemitic.
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Old 2009-01-23, 16:52   Link #786
Zippicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
What exactly is this point? That Israel's completely innocent and anyone who thinks otherwise is at best falling for Hamas' propaganda?
Well one point at least that I've gotten out of all of this is firing rockets at Israel = bad idea.
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Old 2009-01-23, 17:09   Link #787
Mystery777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the point is that israeli tactics are a result of hamas tactics
Infact, Israel did all that it can to force Hamas into firing these rockets. Multiple breaches of cease-fire decisions and agreements is very typical of the israeli government. What do you expect Hamas to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
israel responds by bombing those homes (after warning the people to GTFO)
Today, two kids confessed to witnessing their parents killed infront of them after leaving their home, hands above their heads, on orders of israeli troops. The little boy and his little sister weeped while telling the story. You have to see the pain and shock in their eyes:

http://current.com/items/89744088/is...f_children.htm

I assure you that no one, not even Hamas can do something like this. Yes, they have their own ways of fighting, which includes recruiting youth, but they'll never execute innocent civilians infront of their children.

You really have no clue on the true intentions of your gov. Either that, or you're just trying to clean up their image. Israeli government loves genocide. Especially when it comes to Palestinians. They are just insects. What did Sharon do when he was just warming up? Last thing I recall, he was responsible for one of the most brutal and horrific genocides in this age. Its very ironic no one can bring him to court.
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Old 2009-01-23, 17:24   Link #788
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
not "well intentionad extremsts" or "knight templar" evil
full on dog-raping-baby-eating-evil
Someone's been hanging out at tvtropes a bit too often.

More seriously though, Israel can't simply react to Hamas. They need to make Hamas react to them, both militarily and politically. You've said yourself that Hamas is using human shields so get Israel to kill civilians. Rather than play into this and launching a massive attack, a more restrained approach would better serve Israeli interests. By launching such attacks, Israel is most certainly playing into Hamas' hands.

While riskier to Israeli forces, a more limited engagement is in Israel's interests as it avoids accusations of overreacting. Though given the nature of Israel's ground

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippicus
Well one point at least that I've gotten out of all of this is firing rockets at Israel = bad idea.
It served Hamas' interests though. Now more Palestinians are dead at Israeli hands. Their next round of recruits eager for revenge at the Israelis who killed their (friend/relative) is secure.

To demongod and mystery777, I should point out that the Palestinians are also a semetic people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystery777 View Post
Today, two kids confessed to witnessing their parents killed infront of them after leaving their home, hands above their heads, on orders of israeli troops. The little boy and his little sister weeped while telling the story. You have to see the pain and shock in their eyes:

http://current.com/items/89744088/is...f_children.htm

I assure you that no one, not even Hamas can do something like this. Yes, they have their own ways of fighting, which includes recruiting youth, but they'll never execute innocent civilians infront of their children.
This stuff happens in any army. That Israel is largely a conscript army makes it even more likely. You can't blame the Israeli government for this.
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Old 2009-01-23, 17:24   Link #789
bladeofdarkness
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@Kamui4356
Quote:
While riskier to Israeli forces, a more limited engagement is in Israel's interests as it avoids accusations of overreacting. Though given the nature of Israel's ground
you said it right there
dont forget that getting israel to look bad on TV is the secondery goal
killing IDF soldeirs is the primery goal for the simple reason that israel as a nation cant stand to see IDF soldiers die
at all
it comes from the nature of the conscription system
as far as the israeli public is concerned
and IDF soldier is everyones child or brother-becouse everyones child or brother is an IDF soldier (my sister is)
that means that we arent willing to tolerate the deaths of soldiers if we know that it could have been avoided
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Old 2009-01-23, 17:40   Link #790
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
@Kamui4356

you said it right there
dont forget that getting israel to look bad on TV is the secondery goal
killing IDF soldeirs is the primery goal for the simple reason that israel as a nation cant stand to see IDF soldiers die
at all
it comes from the nature of the conscription system
as far as the israeli public is concerned
and IDF soldier is everyones child or brother-becouse everyones child or brother is an IDF soldier (my sister is)
that means that we arent willing to tolerate the deaths of soldiers if we know that it could have been avoided
That is a point to consider. However, Israel's current path will not achive success. Unless they start to show some restraint, they'll find themselves with less and less international support as time goes by. Such disproportinate response is simply not acceptable in today's world.
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Old 2009-01-23, 17:46   Link #791
bladeofdarkness
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8 years waiting
pulling all settelments and forces out of gaza 3 years ago
those would be forms of restraint
and im pretty sure that time would show that there was plenty of restraint in the IDF's actions in the strip this time as well

and about what Mystery777 posted
i would remind you that these reports are from palestinian sources
in the one place in gaza where the heaviest fighting took place (zaitun)
that making up false claims of IDF war crimes is a palestinian custom
and that Mystery777 has already posted things that suggest that the zionsit conspiracy behind WWI WWII and even 9/11
so i wouldnt put too much into it
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Old 2009-01-23, 17:53   Link #792
Mystery777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post

To demongod and mystery777, I should point out that the Palestinians are also a semetic people.
I know that. To use "anti-Semitic" in the sense of "against Jews" is in itself wrong, because not all Semites are Jews: the Arabs, for instance, are Semites, too. So calling Arabs who are against Jews "anti-Semitic" is nonsensical.

Acts or statements are genuinely anti-Semitic when they are aimed against the Semitic race in general, or against members of that race BECAUSE they belong to that race.

Nowadays, it seems like everything you say against the Jewish people is antisemetic. Are they above being criticized for anything? I have no problem with Jewish people .. have had many jewish friends ... but I don't like Israel's gov stand on things. Am I anti-semetic? Then it means that many jewish are also anti-semitic !? Either way, Big deal!
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Old 2009-01-23, 17:57   Link #793
bladeofdarkness
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even if we took the anti-Semitic thing out of the equetion

Quote:
I assure you that no one, not even Hamas can do something like this. Yes, they have their own ways of fighting, which includes recruiting youth, but they'll never execute innocent civilians infront of their children.
that quote alone
means you have no clue about what your talking about

re-read my post
you know that they booby trap homes, and schools, and in one very odd case- a petting zoo (IDF forces actually took care of the animals to keep them from starving to death)
they plant mines and IED's in the street and on roads inside the city and refugee camps
they intentioanlly dont wear uniforms, thus making it hard to tell who is a civilian and who isnt, putting civilains at risk
they force their way into people's homes and fire from their rooftops hoping to increase the death toll (read: murder the family with israeli tank shells)
they drag children with them in the street hoping that their ENEMY would avoid hurting them to spare the kids (can you imagne it working the other way around)
they convince teenagers (who are by nature easy to convince) to strap explosives to themselves and go kill other women and children with legends of heaven
they teach children that jews are apes and pigs and that god hates them and wants them to die
in fact they teach children that the best they can asspire to become on this earth as a martyr
they shoot anyone who speaks out against them in the back of the knees to criple them for life (and if someone actualy ACTS against them they kill them out right)
they loot UN aid trucks that are sent with food and medicene
they use crowded places where people gather as combat positions becosue it would make the ENEMY less likely to hit them there
they intentioanlly violate international law and use ambulances to transport troops and weapons (thus putting all ambulances at risk of being hit)

and you say
" they have their own ways of fighting, which includes recruiting youth"
like thats the extent of it
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Old 2009-01-23, 18:04   Link #794
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the point is that israeli tactics are a result of hamas tactics
Reactionary - not proactive....

Quote:
(hamas is evil, agreed)
you know all those things
but you nevertheless complain about israeli action as if we are on the same moral ground
Here's the deal.. I *want* you to succeed. I want Israel and Palestine to be peaceful. I *want* you (and Israel) to STAY OFF the same immoral ground as Hamas. However, the Israeli government appears to be sliding down the slope towards Hamas and using all the verbal sidestepping in the book as it goes that way.
Quote:
the best accusation that you can level at israel and the IDF is that you dont think they try HARD ENOUGH to prevent civilian deaths on the ENEMY side
dont you think that there is something slightly odd with that one ?
I think Israel and the IDF are falling into the "I have a hammer, I'll use it on everything as a solution". They're either in a mental rut or I have to consider more cynical theories.

Israel doesn't want to commit ground troops as is needed to the action to "really win" because the people of Israel would say "wtf? Is this really that important?" Right now the war is mostly "sterile" to the Israeli public. The US government used a similar tactic by "sanitizing" the Iraq nonsense. Actual goals by each administration were either far different than the publicly stated flagwaving or we have to consider their competency.

There's a political calculation there. Israel says it "achieved its goals" when announcing the ceasefire.... what goals were achieved? What specific milestones? It looks like the specific goal was to permit Hamas to consolidate, eliminate dissent, and leave the civilians with even less option. That's certainly what was achieved.

You just called the Palestinian civilians the enemy again.... their hearts and minds are the leverage chips to isolating Hamas. Are you trying to shut down a terrorist group or "beat" a country?
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Old 2009-01-23, 18:16   Link #795
bladeofdarkness
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the problem with the "stated objectives" is that there was none
the words used were "changing the reality in the area" as ifthat explains actual goals
i admit that its odd

the general idea is that if hamas knows that the price for attacking israel is that israel might attack back (with much more power)
then it would be less likely to attack to begin with
is that the BEST course of action
maybe not (read: probably not)
but if it means that the people in southern israel can get to live their lives in peace for a few years
thats good enough as a start

this isnt (nor wasnt ever claimed to be) a permenet solution to the problem
this is at best a way to bring about a calm period of time
its only talks that could solve the probelm
but such talks cant take place while under rocket fire

and while the palestinian people arent viewed as "the enemy"
they are the enemy's people
and if the enemy is willing to put them to such risks, the blame is theirs
we try to avoid civilian deaths as much as possible
but the truth of the matter is that if hamas really wanted to, they can just start shooting their own people and say that israeli's did it
and the world would believe it (until proven otherwise, by which time its too late since no one cares)
like i said the PR battle is lost before it begins
whats importent is that WE hold ourselves up to the moral standards that WE set
nothing else matters becouse a lie can run around the world before the truth can get its boots on
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Old 2009-01-23, 18:30   Link #796
Jinto
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Palestinians have the bad luck to live in a place, that is mainly used by 3 nations (Iran, Sysria and Israel) as their battle field of own interests. On this battlefield Iran and Syria are using Hamas to fight a proxy war against Israel. And Israel is defending itself on palestinian ground.
If I understand the situation down there correctly... then as long as Israel, Syria and Iran do not settle their disputes, there will never be peace there.
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Old 2009-01-23, 18:41   Link #797
Demongod86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystery777 View Post
I know that. To use "anti-Semitic" in the sense of "against Jews" is in itself wrong, because not all Semites are Jews: the Arabs, for instance, are Semites, too. So calling Arabs who are against Jews "anti-Semitic" is nonsensical.

Acts or statements are genuinely anti-Semitic when they are aimed against the Semitic race in general, or against members of that race BECAUSE they belong to that race.

Nowadays, it seems like everything you say against the Jewish people is antisemetic. Are they above being criticized for anything? I have no problem with Jewish people .. have had many jewish friends ... but I don't like Israel's gov stand on things. Am I anti-semetic? Then it means that many jewish are also anti-semitic !? Either way, Big deal!
Let's stop the technicalities. You know that when someone says antisemitic, they mean anti-Jew. And can you be anti-Jew while having Jewish friends?

The same way I'm rabidly anti-Islamic while having Muslim friends from Saudi Arabia itself. I don't judge people by their taking the positive from the propaganda of a pedophile mass murderer, but if they so wish to be judged by their strict adherence to said propaganda and nothing else, I'll be happy to oblige them.

As for criticizing Israel: yes, it is above criticism. At least on the magnitude it gets. Tell me: where are the rallies and the protests every time there's an attack on Israel? Where are the rallies to stop the genocide in Darfur, the oppression of the Nepalese by the Chinese, and I can go on and on.

Those "protests" are poorly masked antisemitism. The end.

And as for "those poor, suffering, innocent Palestinians": they elected Hamas. Let them live with the consequences.

And as for human life being sacred/precious/priceless: it isn't. Nobody's is. Because there's something called the "costs of living". Pay them or mother nature will deal with you in short order.
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Old 2009-01-23, 18:50   Link #798
Ermes Marana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Israel says it "achieved its goals" when announcing the ceasefire.... what goals were achieved?

A major goal is to reduce the rocket attacks.

Just as Israel has been extraordinarily successful in stopping suicide bombing.


I wonder how many Palestinian lives Israel has saved by being so good at stopping suicide bombing. If Israel didn't have a strong defense against it, Hamas would be sending waves of children with bombs strapped on. Each one that didn't attempt it because it is too hard, is a life saved.

That is part of why acting responsibly and taking attacks seriously is best for all involved. It is dehumanizing to both sides to treat deadly attacks like jokes, or complain that not enough people have been killed yet.
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Old 2009-01-23, 18:57   Link #799
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Tell me: where are the rallies and the protests every time there's an attack on Israel? Where are the rallies to stop the genocide in Darfur, the oppression of the Nepalese by the Chinese, and I can go on and on.
I remember seeing plenty of rallies over China's occupation of tibet in the months leading up to the Beijing olympics as well as commercials about Darfur with celeberties.
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Old 2009-01-23, 19:09   Link #800
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Palestinians have the bad luck to live in a place, that is mainly used by 3 nations (Iran, Sysria and Israel) as their battle field of own interests. On this battlefield Iran and Syria are using Hamas to fight a proxy war against Israel. And Israel is defending itself on palestinian ground.
If I understand the situation down there correctly... then as long as Israel, Syria and Iran do not settle their disputes, there will never be peace there.
the problem is iran really
syria is just following iran at this stage, it has no other allies and isnt strong enough to be credible threat by itself
if it was forced to stand alone against israel it would be more likely to just cave in and sign a peace treaty already
but as long as its allied with iran it cant act any other way

before the revolution in iran (the one that turned it into a muslim theocracy) israeli-iranian relations were very good actually
after the revolution iran adopted a fundamentalistic ideaoligy that calls for islam to take over the world
iran is effectively trying to do with islamic fandamentalisem, what the soviets were trying to do with communisem
and they want to start with rallying the arab world around them and come out as the superpower of the middle east
their attmpets to rally support for this goal in the arab world (remember, iran isnt an arab country) is using a cause that the arab world has been obsessive about for years now
the palestinian matter
iran wants to become the leader of the arab world in the same way that eygpt tried to do it in the 60"s
by destroying israel (the one country in the area that EVERYONE hates)
they want to show that they "support" the palestinianas struggle for independece and do so by funding, arming and training hamas hizballa and just about any other bunch of loonies who are willing to follow their idealigy
the problem is that rather then HELPING the palestinian struggle, all they in effect doing is PROLONGING it
if iran was made to change its ways, it would mean that syria also stops supporting the radicals
and it means an end to the conflict

in truth there is also a different way
if syria could be convinced to switch sides
it cuts off the main route that iran uses to supply their proxies in the area and leaves them alone in the "battle"
but for that to happen syria must be given complete and undesputed support from europe and the US against any iraninan retaliation
and thats not likely to happen
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