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Old 2009-01-07, 21:46   Link #121
WanderingKnight
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And brush up on your reading comprehension. They teach that in primary school.
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That's what I am saying. Their haven't passed the point that gives them freedom of thought or expression. Islamic culture hasn't yet progressed there. Similar to Inquisition-era Christianity.
How is that different from the idiocy I pointed out you were saying?

Let me guess, you also believe the genocide committed by the Spaniards during the Conquest was the right thing to do.

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the insult-train chuggs again.... Good for you I'm not a neanderthal =D
If I actually think about it, the fact that you're not a Neanderthal is pretty sad.
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Old 2009-01-07, 21:48   Link #122
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
IT didn't work because pussy politicians fawn over and lose their balls when they see dead bodies on CNN. Then they whine about medical aid, humanitarian situation bla bla bla so on and so forth until they set so many restrictions that made warfare lose its feasibility while providing no permanent reason for a nation to not go to war.
THat's what happened in Lebanon 2 years ago.
Your tough talk is weak. Do you know what really is heroic? The peace in Northern Ireland.

It did not come easy. It had people like you talking tough on both sides demanding blood for every bomb going off and every raid launched. It had leaders on both sides risking their all to make the peace move forward, and even harder, to hold it in face of continued sporadic assaults. It had to moderate a radicalized population plagued by decades of continuous low-scale insurgency campaign and centuries of grief and grievances and struggle. Criminals went off easy despite their previous crimes and "justice" was not always carried. Even today there are still remaining issues to be addressed.

And yet it worked. There is peace there now. Their children could hope to live in a place where Sinn Fein and the Catholics wouldn't have to battle it out with the British military or the Protestants in the streets. It's a far better world for that. Pragmatic? Hell yes, for people smart enough to think long-term.

Had they listened to this facetious total war crap I've been reading in many responses the last few pages I suspect we would have seen a Northern Ireland devastated and at war to this day -- or worse, a genocide by one side, which you seem to think in a supposed "pragmatic" viewpoint, though more precisely a cynical, easy viewpoint, is perfectly okay.
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Old 2009-01-07, 21:49   Link #123
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
The best weapon is, like I've always maintained, demographics. Israel cannot ignore this. The day where Jews become a minority in Israel is fast approaching. I'm reasonably confident that by the time I reach Vexx's age, Israelis of Arab descent would be a force to be reckoned with.
Arab Jews have existed for quite some time. Although European history often mentions the Sephardic (Spanish) and Ashkenazic (Eastern European) Jews, a lesser-known group is the Mizrahic (Arab) Jews. I'd imagine that by "Arab Israeli" you meant "Muslim Israeli" as a Mizrahic Jew would likely feel a greater connection to Israel than to any Islamic-Arabic nation.

Either way, the point you raise is a good one. The future of a nation due to shifting demographics is the same everywhere, though. It's based upon the question of whether the new demographic identifies with and cares for the culture and principles behind the nation that they're a part of.

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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Come on, use your head for a little while. Do you really reckon a country with absolutely no military power at all can be as destructive as Israel could be? Do you have any idea what the military power of Israel is?

It's huge. Probably one of the most powerful in the world. Hamas' manually crafted rockets don't stand a chance against it.
While you're right that the Israeli military is much stronger than Hamas is and that it would wipe them out if the two were to meet on a proper battlefield, it's not a rightful comparison. For all the power of the Israeli military, Hamas can still fire rockets and send suicide bombers to kill Israeli civilians. They can also do this from locations that make it very difficult for the Israeli military to respond without involving Palestinian civilians. The raw power of a nation's military only defends its citizens in a detrimental manner; that is, by discouraging another nation or force from even thinking of attacking. Hamas doesn't play by those rules.

Put yourself in the situation that the Israelis are in. What if one of the countries bordering yours was regularly used as a base from which suicide bombers were sent and rocket attacks were performed on your own country? My own reaction would be that my country should lodge a complaint with the country that played host to the attacks, and offer that we'd provide aid in stopping the attacks if they needed. Suppose that either yields no results or, even worse, the other country essentially responds saying that your country should be destroyed? You can bet I'd expect my government to start doing something about it. Obviously I wouldn't want civilians on the other side to be involved or incorrectly targeted, but look - they ultimately weren't doing anything to stop the violence on their end, and there's only so much that my own country would be able to do as a foreign entity (which, at this point in time, is largely limited to lobbing back a few air strikes and returning gunfire). I don't think that the Israeli people expect anything less from their government, and the government, being tasked with serving and protecting the people, is doing just that. It's a sad situation where both sides likely feel justified in what they're doing (and in their own small ways, they are), and yet the end result is much loss of life and human suffering.
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Old 2009-01-07, 21:51   Link #124
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
How is that different from the idiocy I pointed out you were saying?




Exactly. If you knew how to read, then you should have understood that there is nothing in this post that suggests me saying that Arabs deserve to die b/c of their inferiority.


I tell you, your comprehension is deficient. So try reading twice so you won't expose yourself.
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Old 2009-01-07, 21:51   Link #125
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@Ledgem: As always, you helped clarified my point. Yeah, I was talking about Muslim Israelis.

Also, back me up, if I get some parts wrong here. If I remember correctly, the tension between those who advocate secularism and the ultra-Orthodox fellows have been increasing in recent memories.
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Old 2009-01-07, 21:55   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Your tough talk is weak. Do you know what really is heroic? The peace in Northern Ireland.

It did not come easy. It had people like you talking tough on both sides demanding blood for every bomb going off and every raid launched. It had leaders on both sides risking their all to make the peace move forward, and even harder, to hold it in face of continued sporadic assaults. It had to moderate a radicalized population plagued by decades of continuous low-scale insurgency campaign and centuries of grief and grievances and struggle. Criminals went off easy despite their previous crimes and "justice" was not always carried. Even today there are still remaining issues to be addressed.

And yet it worked. There is peace there now. Their children could hope to live in a place where Sinn Fein and the Catholics wouldn't have to battle it out with the British military or the Protestants in the streets. It's a far better world for that. Pragmatic? Hell yes, for people smart enough to think long-term.

Had they listened to this facetious total war crap I've been reading in many responses the last few pages I suspect we would have seen a Northern Ireland devastated and at war to this day -- or worse, a genocide by one side, which you seem to think in a supposed "pragmatic" viewpoint, though more precisely a cynical, easy viewpoint, is perfectly okay.

We can include cultural comparisons here. The framework used in Ireland won't work in Israel.
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Old 2009-01-07, 21:56   Link #127
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While you're right that the Israeli military is much stronger than Hamas is and that it would wipe them out if the two were to meet on a proper battlefield, it's not a rightful comparison. For all the power of the Israeli military, Hamas can still fire rockets and send suicide bombers to kill Israeli civilians. They can also do this from locations that make it very difficult for the Israeli military to respond without involving Palestinian civilians. The raw power of a nation's military only defends its citizens in a detrimental manner; that is, by discouraging another nation or force from even thinking of attacking. Hamas doesn't play by those rules.
But do you really think bombing civilians is the way to solve the issue? Really?

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Obviously I wouldn't want civilians on the other side to be involved or incorrectly targeted, but look - they ultimately weren't doing anything to stop the violence on their end
You know what I see--it's as if you're arguing that the whole thing started with Hamas going gung-ho on Israelite civilians... when it really didn't start like that. We don't even know how it started, and there's no point in pointing fingers. Right now, the Israelite government is pretty conscious of what they're doing, and why they're doing it--I have no doubt at all that their final intention is to wipe Palestine from the face of the earth. It's something that goes beyond religion, beyond prior conflicts, and even beyond the dead Israelite civilians (who probably amount to much less than the dead Palestine civilians). It's about power, it's about consolidating their position as one of the most powerful military states in the world.

Note that I don't consider Hamas some sort of saints. I do believe that the Palestine people had a just demand for a country of their own, though.

It's always about power. Like I always say, ideologies and excuses are nothing but words. What truly matters, in the end, are the actions people take. And these are always guided by vested, personal interests--even when they say they want to "protect Israel". If they really wanted to do that they'd given Palestine their land a long time ago.

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Exactly. If you knew how to read, then you should have understood that there is nothing in this post that suggests me saying that Arabs deserve to die b/c of their inferiority.
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Originally Posted by You posted
I'm on the Israelis. When it comes to a war of civilizations, go with the side that is secular and has the technology. I have nothing against Arabs though, but I think that they're horribly outclassed materially and culturally by the Jews today. Morals don't matter.
lol, come on. I'm trying to be serious here. "I'm with Israel on this one", "Arabs are horribly outclassed materially and culturally by the Jews today". If that doesn't mean they should die because they're poor and have a "low culture" (double lol), I don't know what that means.
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Old 2009-01-07, 21:59   Link #128
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post

It's always about power. Like I always say, ideologies and excuses are nothing but words. What truly matters, in the end, are the actions people take. And these are always guided by vested, personal interests--even when they say they want to "protect Israel". If they really wanted to do that they'd given Palestine their land a long time ago.
It doesn't matter whose land it is. The side who can impose domination wins. Both parties have legitimate claims, but one is clearly stronger than the other. Thus, the present situation.

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lol, come on. I'm trying to be serious here.
And you do know the difference between rooting for Israel and wanting the arabs to die b/c they are backward? Nice display of stupidity.

If you don't know what it means, you really must repeat primary school.
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:05   Link #129
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women and children deserve to die because someone near them was a target???? Wow.... serious fail there. Both side's leaders are being fuckwads... with many innocent trapped between.

Quite simply, it happens.
It's happened in Afghanistan, it's happened in Iraq, it's happened in any theatr of war you can name.
War is inherently a dangerous business. People get killed. If you don't want to be there when it happens, get the fuck out.
If Hamas were so concerned about civilian casualties then why shoot rockets into Israel in the first place?
If the Palestinians were so concerned about civilian casualties then why vote in a political party whose mandate is ongoing terrorist activities against Israel?

When you use innocents as shields, then the collateral damage belongs to you. Blame Hamas

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Old 2009-01-07, 22:08   Link #130
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By virtue of being the gov't in Gaza, Hamas' actions can be considered as a provocation to war against Israel. Now if Fatah was in control and Hamas fired rockets, your claims may have ground, but it isn't.
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:08   Link #131
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:16   Link #132
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And you do know the difference between rooting for Israel and wanting the arabs to die b/c they are backward? Nice display of stupidity.
Umm, it's a war, and in wars people die. Usually more on the losing side than in the winning side. Especially in this situation in particular, when one side completely dominates the other, military-wise.

I don't really understand how your brain can't link these concepts together.
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:19   Link #133
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
.

I don't really understand
how your brain can't link these concepts together.
(lol)
read more and you probably will.
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:27   Link #134
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Ledgem: I must object to your portrayal of Israel's actions as only retaliation against Hamas' provocation. The provocation goes both ways. Certain actions of the Israeli government cannot be taken in any other way except as deliberate efforts to blockade Palestine.

You talked about the Wall a few pages back; you justified it as self-defense. I have to ask you: really? A wall? Surrounding a nation? Once again, I see the Israeli viewpoint very well that in light of history it needs to be able to defend itself from attack, but this is far, far bigger than that. Israel controls most of the water supply in the region, Palestinians are forced to suffer through what we see as human rights abuse every day, their economic condition horrible, and they are expelled from their homes by establishment of Israeli settlements. If nothing else it's practically a concrete monument of oppression. Remember that Banksy guy who went to the West Bank to paint the pretty pictures on the Wall? Yeah. He was being satirical, but the state of affairs there is a fact of life: humans, living their lives, surrounded by walls built not for their protection but to blockade them, from economic opportunities, from chances at equality, from their ancestral homes in many cases.

I'm not saying that because all that, Israeli citizens deserve rockets being shot at them, that they don't deserve security in their own state, or that Hamas is right. What I see in this thread is rather an incredibly one-sided viewpoint of Israel = legitimate state and Palestinians = terrorists, and therefore terrorists just need to die. Bullshit all of them. Your viewpoint is more sophisticated than that, certainly, but I disagree with you strongly all the same.

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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
We can include cultural comparisons here. The framework used in Ireland won't work in Israel.
That's obvious. On the other hand, it does not at all justify your rather facetious point that because what was done in Northern Ireland is different than what can be done in Israel/Palestine, that the one choice is total war. That, and your claim of Arab "cultural backwardness" is an extreme, very extreme, oversimplification of the state of affairs. For one, it is a Western-centric viewpoint (yes, you're from the Philippines, but..); for another, the "Arab world" isn't a homogeneous state; and yet more, the histories of the place are far more complex than to put things like that out.

Peace is possible. It's just unlikely, hard, even potentially fatal for many, and the only choice for people with a shred of humanity left, if I have to say so myself.

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Originally Posted by mg1942
It isn't Israel's fault that civilians are essentially being held hostage by their own government either.
Well, duh. Now why are you suggesting that the Palestinians deserve it more than the Israelis again?
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:31   Link #135
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That, and your claim of Arab "cultural backwardness" is an extreme, very extreme, oversimplification of the state of affairs.
I think I addressed that in the post that says one cannot judge a culture using a paradigm to judge a different one.
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:33   Link #136
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I think I addressed that in the post that says one cannot judge a culture using a paradigm to judge a different one.
Umm, what the fuck? Do you even listen to yourself?

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I have nothing against Arabs though, but I think that they're horribly outclassed materially and culturally by the Jews today.
o_O
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:35   Link #137
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Umm, what the fuck? Do you even listen to yourself?



o_O
It's a subjective observation. I don't claim it as fact. May be, may not be true. Depends on where I stand from. While I cannot say it as fact, I have the right to opinion.
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:39   Link #138
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You... you don't make any sense.

It's all opinions. We're all talking opinions. However, some opinions make sense and are consistent, and most of the reasonable ones are at least somewhat based on facts--while others, like yours, contradict themselves. You stated that the Arabs are culturally backwards as a fact. The same way you stated that you can't compare two cultures together. The same way you stated that, for some unknown magical reason, your rooting for a country that's killing dozens of civilians a day is in no way advocating for the death of those civilians.

I don't know if I've been taught reading comprehension enough, but methinks that calling a culture "backwards" is putting them in some sort of magical "culture scale", which compares all cultures worldwide. What do you say, Mr Reading Comprehension? Have I been a good student?
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Old 2009-01-07, 22:42   Link #139
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
"backwards" is putting them in some sort of magical "culture scale". What do you say, Mr Reading Comprehension?
True enough, but the scale depends on our own preconceptions of backwardness or advancement. We all have our own scales.
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Old 2009-01-07, 23:38   Link #140
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
@Ledgem: As always, you helped clarified my point. Yeah, I was talking about Muslim Israelis.

Also, back me up, if I get some parts wrong here. If I remember correctly, the tension between those who advocate secularism and the ultra-Orthodox fellows have been increasing in recent memories.
As I don't live there (nor have I been back there for a few years) I can't answer that one. I never felt that there was any real tension between the two groups, but that was based off of my own observations and what I heard from other Israelis. It's likely different on the political front.

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But do you really think bombing civilians is the way to solve the issue? Really?
No, of course not. That was actually a point that I'd wanted to make, but forgot to. When you spoke of the uneven balance of military power, I responded by saying that Hamas can still target and damage/kill civilians despite the imbalance. What I forgot to add was this: If it wanted to I'm sure that Israel could kill practically every Palestinian, but that isn't the goal. Nor is Israel going around and gloating about the civilian casualties.

Understand that to me, Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians. I'd imagine that there are Israelis (and perhaps some on the chain of command) who would like to, or who don't mind hearing that civilians suffer. That's the human revenge instinct - "our civilians suffered, so it's only right that the other side suffers, too." However targeting civilians is not the Israeli army's policy. The same can't be said for Hamas. Partly as a result one could say that Hamas is fighting with everything that it has, but the Israeli Army is holding back. Why even bring up the issue of power?

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You know what I see--it's as if you're arguing that the whole thing started with Hamas going gung-ho on Israelite civilians... when it really didn't start like that. We don't even know how it started, and there's no point in pointing fingers. Right now, the Israelite government is pretty conscious of what they're doing, and why they're doing it--I have no doubt at all that their final intention is to wipe Palestine from the face of the earth.
I agree with the first part of this paragraph. If this conflict had just started then we could probably trace it back and determine roughly who is at fault, and resolve it in a just manner. The conflict has been going on for so long that the very start of it is somewhat irrelevant now, not in terms of understanding the conflict but in terms of stopping it. The fact is that many innocent people are suffering, both sides should have an interest in preventing that, and as a result they should put pride and finger-pointing aside to work together and end the violence.

I greatly disagree with the second part of your statement. While people have cited cases of Israel opening new settlements and attempting to push the Palestinians out, I've read a mixture of news and reports of Israel giving land back to the Palestinians and closing down Israeli settlements (sometimes to the rebellion of the Israeli residents living there). I don't doubt that Israel has put up new settlements and perhaps acted unfairly to the Palestinians, but they are also attempting to be fair. It isn't one-sided.

Again I remark that I may be biased lest I really am biased and people believe me too easily, but I simply don't see how you can say that Israel is trying to get rid of the Palestinians. Ever since I was a child there were seemingly reports every one or two weeks about how a suicide bomber destroyed a bus full of people, a marketplace, a restaurant, any crowded area you could think of. Meanwhile the official government stance of Palestine (and some other Arab nation leaders, such as Saddam Hussein) at the time seemed to be that people who blew themselves up and took out a ton of Israelis were heroes and their families/associates deserved to be rewarded. I admit bias because much of my family are Israelis, and during many of my visits to Israel as a young child such attacks took place (although luckily for me, I was never near them). I puzzled over it then and I sort of still puzzle over it now: what were they trying to accomplish? If they were against the Israeli military then why didn't they attack the military? Why were they targeting the civilians? Their own doctrine and the harsh words of the leaders give the impression that they want Israel totally removed from the map. Some of the extremists even call for the extermination of all Jews. In a way, then, I find it rather ironic that you say that Israel wants to wipe out the Palestinians, when the extremist Palestinians - who just so happen to be the ones in power - are desiring the extermination of Israel.

As such, while Israel isn't treating Palestine terribly kindly, what do you think they should do? It isn't that every single Palestinian hates Israel, but the ruling powers there are very anti-Israel, and some are anti-Jew. You speak of their killing civilians as though Hamas were either non-existent or as if Hamas were simply raising a flag to say "Hamas was here." Hamas is actively targeting Israelis, and Israel is only so lucky that Hamas' armament currently consists merely of crappy rockets. I would agree that some, perhaps much, of Israel's responses are excessive, but you seem to believe that Israel should be giving zero response at all. It simply isn't realistic. Hamas isn't a school ground bully looking for attention; whether Israel responds or not they'll be launching their attacks. Israel likely fears that lack of a response would only embolden Hamas to try more daring attacks and/or that more people would want to join in the attacks. On the other side, Israelis won't stand for it. Would you support a government that wasn't doing all that it could to protect you from active foreign attacks?

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And these are always guided by vested, personal interests--even when they say they want to "protect Israel". If they really wanted to do that they'd given Palestine their land a long time ago.
It would seem that the Palestinians consider all of Israel to be their land. That's a problem. Israel currently exists as it is - an entrenched, developed nation. It's unfortunate for both the Palestinians and the Israelis that the nation exists there. It's an unrealistic expectation that Israel should entirely up and vanish.

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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Ledgem: I must object to your portrayal of Israel's actions as only retaliation against Hamas' provocation. The provocation goes both ways. Certain actions of the Israeli government cannot be taken in any other way except as deliberate efforts to blockade Palestine.

You talked about the Wall a few pages back; you justified it as self-defense. I have to ask you: really? A wall? Surrounding a nation?
Yes, actually. The wall has worked, as well. These days you largely hear about rockets. When I was a child, before the wall was built, you practically never heard of rocket attacks. Instead you heard about suicide bombers quite frequently. What was Israel to do - say that all people who looked Arabic or Muslim had to leave the country? They built a wall to make it harder for the people from a certain region to enter the country and kill civilians. While the idea of the wall may seem unfriendly and unnecessary in a civilized world, what else was Israel to do? Can you think of any solutions, keeping in mind that the Israeli government's #1 priority was and is to care for its citizens?

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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Israel controls most of the water supply in the region, Palestinians are forced to suffer through what we see as human rights abuse every day, their economic condition horrible, and they are expelled from their homes by establishment of Israeli settlements. If nothing else it's practically a concrete monument of oppression.
Was Palestine ever a thriving, rich country? In many ways I think you're blaming Israel for more than it deserves. As I mentioned above a number of Israeli settlements have been closed and returned to the Palestinians (to much anger from the Israeli settlers). The government is trying to do what it can, but within reason. Do you really believe that if Israel poured money and resources into Palestine, that things would suddenly get better? It'd be like feeding your enemies. Hamas does not represent the will of all Palestinians, as Aquillion pointed out. As someone else mentioned, perhaps if Hamas weren't so tied up in firing rockets into Israel they could be turning Palestine into a self-sustaining nation that exists outside of the poverty level, as opposed to the welfare state that it is today.

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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Remember that Banksy guy who went to the West Bank to paint the pretty pictures on the Wall? Yeah. He was being satirical, but the state of affairs there is a fact of life: humans, living their lives, surrounded by walls built not for their protection but to blockade them, from economic opportunities, from chances at equality, from their ancestral homes in many cases.
It was for their protection. Look, I didn't support America's actions in kicking down the doors to Afghanistan and Iraq as retaliation for Al Qaida, because a single attack (even if relatively large in scope) just didn't make them seem like a threat. I may have been desensitized to terrorism from my many trips to Israel, where, as I wrote to WanderingKnight, I'd often hear about the suicide bombers hitting various market places while I was there (as well as when I wasn't there). Being there, seeing something as simple as a strip mall having security that checks your bags, that all gives you the sense of the fact that there's a real and active threat even if the constant news reports didn't. So no, I don't see the wall as being a blockade, and while I'll ponder it I also don't see how one could reach the conclusion that the wall is really serving that purpose.

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What I see in this thread is rather an incredibly one-sided viewpoint of Israel = legitimate state and Palestinians = terrorists, and therefore terrorists just need to die. Bullshit all of them. Your viewpoint is more sophisticated than that, certainly, but I disagree with you strongly all the same.
I'd imagine that most of the pro-Israel supporters on here either aren't very eloquent (perhaps due to having English as a second language) or they're very anti-Arab, and as such it's just convenient to egg Israel on. I'd like for both Israel and Palestine to be peaceful and prosperous. From what little I've read on the founding of Israel and the start of the conflict, neither Israel nor Palestine is really to blame. Technically it would be the British (or perhaps the UN), who gave the Jews the green light to found Israel on the swath of land where it exists today. The Palestinians had something stolen from them by the international community, then, and the Jews felt justified in taking it because a "higher power" (a powerful country/countries) had granted it. Throw in the history of torment, discrimination, and suffering that the Jewish people faced (which isn't relevant here, but also explains some of the Jewsh pysche) and you have two sides that have legit reasons for fighting over what they have or want back.

I don't believe that every single Palestinian hates Israel/Jews, although it is a fact that at least some schools do attempt to educate the children to hate Israel. That's quite sad. While I don't believe that the Israelis (not the majority, anyway) are attempting to exterminate the Palestinians, I'll freely admit that they haven't always treated the Palestinians fairly. Injustices have occurred on both sides and they continue to occur, all at a great loss of human life and resources. My own desire is to see the suffering stopped and for both sides to be prosperous. Getting there is quite difficult, and I'd imagine that the longer this continues the more difficult the recovery process will be.
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