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View Poll Results: Maria-sama ga Miteru 4th - Episode 2 Rating
Perfect 10 5 11.90%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 11 26.19%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 38.10%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 14.29%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 7.14%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 2.38%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-01-16, 08:07   Link #61
Sinestra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgiane15 View Post
Yep, yep. Poor Yumi. Always under her onee-sama's thumb. LOL Also, Sachiko did push Yumi to take care of Touko's problem with the drama club. And then Kanako's family problems, she was there to witness too. Looks like she has a lot in her hands right now. I guess Sachiko may be right, asking for a grand baby. LOL
Maybe you misunderstanding the purpose behind the souer relationship in general. Yumi is not under Sachiko's thumb she respects and admires her. Yumi could not have accepted the Rosary and Yumi could also leave if she was unhappy but she stays and works hard without anyone telling her to do so. The fact is both Yumi and Sachiko needed each other. Look at what Yumi has done to change Sachiko in just such a short time and look at how Yumi has grown and matured. She has become a very dependable person so much in fact that people with problems go to her more than anyone else. Even Noriko commented on why did she go to Yumi about Touko quitting the drama club.

Also, did you ever think why Sachiko let Yumi handle the Kanako and Touko problem? Its very obvious why she did it. Think about it if your still not sure I will tell you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Are you saying the stern look was her admonishing Yumi for procrastinating? Possibly but still feels a bit pointless to me as it wouldn't change that Yumi would do exactly as she said without it. I'll agree though if that what she was trying to do then I can see the stern face being used. Still I'd have to say that I was also expecting her to smiling and didn't feel that she was in anyway admonishing her though it is certainly a possibility.

I wouldnt say she was admonishing Yumi over it. It is true that even Sachiko had a smile on her face when she said Yumi would do it, but a smile might not portray the fact Sachiko was serious about this issue. Its a tradition and Sachiko expects Yumi to take her place when she leaves and continue just as Sachiko's Onee-sama did. For Yumi to fail to find a souer or continue to procrastinate is not only a failure for the Yamayurika but for Sachiko and and Sachiko's Onee-sama as well. Yumi knew what she should have been doing but avoided it. Yumi was already told that she was expected to become Rosa Chinensis and Sachiko has been preparing her for this role and also maybe to break loosen a little of the attachment that Yumi has for her. Is a sense its time for Yumi to mature and take her role and guide others just as the Roses have done for generations if you think about cicumstances and the history of the tradition its a very serious matter.
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Old 2009-01-16, 17:35   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Maybe you misunderstanding the purpose behind the souer relationship in general. Yumi is not under Sachiko's thumb she respects and admires her. Yumi could not have accepted the Rosary and Yumi could also leave if she was unhappy but she stays and works hard without anyone telling her to do so. The fact is both Yumi and Sachiko needed each other. Look at what Yumi has done to change Sachiko in just such a short time and look at how Yumi has grown and matured. She has become a very dependable person so much in fact that people with problems go to her more than anyone else. Even Noriko commented on why did she go to Yumi about Touko quitting the drama club.

Also, did you ever think why Sachiko let Yumi handle the Kanako and Touko problem? Its very obvious why she did it. Think about it if your still not sure I will tell you.
It was just a joke. Gomen.
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Old 2009-01-16, 18:56   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Are you saying the stern look was her admonishing Yumi for procrastinating? Possibly but still feels a bit pointless to me as it wouldn't change that Yumi would do exactly as she said without it. I'll agree though if that what she was trying to do then I can see the stern face being used. Still I'd have to say that I was also expecting her to smiling and didn't feel that she was in anyway admonishing her though it is certainly a possibility.
Yumi's even later than Sachiko in picking a sister. If Yumi was going to do it without a push, she'd have done it already. Sometimes, she needs guidance in the form of a kick in the butt. Just as when she persisted in calling Sachiko "Sachiko-sama". And then as now, it is Sachiko's duty as a grande soeur to provide that kick.
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Old 2009-01-16, 19:38   Link #64
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Oh my, we've escalated something we shouldn't have. Everyone has different opinion about Sachiko's stern look. But she did have stern look while saying to Yumi "Please acknowledge someone as your petite soeur." It wasn't a demand, since Sachiko asked nicely. But I'm not sure if it was a gentle push either. Looks to me like a warning or final notice for her task long overdue.
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Old 2009-01-16, 22:49   Link #65
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I wouldn't call it a warning, and final notice seems much too harsh. More like a strong reminder of what she needs to be doing, as well as what Sachiko expects from her.
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Old 2009-01-17, 14:33   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Molenir View Post
I wouldn't call it a warning, and final notice seems much too harsh. More like a strong reminder of what she needs to be doing, as well as what Sachiko expects from her.
Exactly a combination of the expectations that Sachiko has for her and a reminder of what she needs to be doing. I think its easy for us and maybe Yumi as well to forget as the next Rosa Chinensis she has a responsibility to continue the traditions of Lilian it comes with the job.
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Old 2009-05-11, 02:33   Link #67
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What was Kanako's story like in the novels compared to this episode?

I watched it, and I don't see why she shouldn't forgive her father. Maybe it was irresponsible what he did, but I assumed that he was already divorced when he married Yuuko, and he didn't seem like a heartless guy. I also got the sense that what she was really upset about was that she thought her father ruined Yuuko's life. Though, I am not sure that something like that should make her despise all men. But I guess everything is alright now? I guess she forgives her father now and she doesn't seem to hate men now that she knows the truth. Though, I would have liked there to be some interaction with Kanako and her father, instead of just Yuuko telling her everything.
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Old 2009-05-11, 12:55   Link #68
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Well, of course, he wasn't bigamous. But IIRC, the divorce and remarriage happened in relatively quick succession. And I don't think Kanako was ever clear on the exact timeline, which must have added to her misconception.

From her point of view, it may have been Met Yuuko -> impregnated her -> decided to divorce and marry Yuuko.
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Old 2010-11-20, 12:54   Link #69
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Bump. Caught this series about a month ago, have been revisiting a specific few favourite episodes (not this one) in the meantime, and browsing episode threads on animesuki as a result (this one because it was on the front page).

While I give that this story/episode isn't the strongest one of the series, I feel the discussion in this thread has missed a key component of Kanako's character and as such is a disservice both herself and her greater story. While I can't claim to remember all the following details absolutely precisely (considering I only watched the episode once and more recently revisited its story in the novels), I felt the climax of the development in this episode came in the conversation about "Maria-sama's star".

The point has been made that Kanoko's sempai resembles Yumi--I am not particularly clear as to how--but the most important point to take away from this is that Yuuko was also the subject of Kanako's idealization. Kanako--height inherited from her father, so proud of him as her middle-school's basketball coach, and full of admiration for an amazing basketball-club sempai--had this pride ripped away from her as he seemingly took advantage of his position to tear Yuuko, a lifetime of potential ahead of her, away from her cherished promises and dreams. The conclusion at the end of the episode was, although the soeur system did not exist in Kanako's public middle school, that this idealized Yuuko was always the onee-sama who had been in Kanako's heart, both in the past and in the future (incidentally why Yumi could never become Kanako's grande soeur). However, the problem was, that idealized Yuuko-san was only an illusion: Yuuko was never actually perfect--did not manage to thrive in the competitive world of highschool basketball; had to throw away her dreams completely after an irreparable injury; was not torn away from her unlimited potential by a predator of a father, but instead fell in love and was comforted by someone who understood her own weakness. The pivotal resolution for Kanako in this episode was not that Yuuko-sempai was happy contrary to her expectations, but rather that she learned to accept that Yuuko was not as perfect as Kanako had always believed her to be. Not only is the acceptance of this fact the key point to her future forgiveness of her father, continuing relationship with a dear friend, and miraculous love for a newborn sister, it also leads to a fairly a morally/intellectually complicated faith that her past pure-and-innocent idealization of a ”perfect” sempai was not worthless either--that even though the real Yuuko-sempai was not perfect like she always believed her to be, perhaps the sempai she believed in was simply a twin who had flown off to Mars. As she had been told before, perhaps that perfect Yuuko-sempai that she had been robbed of, just like her perfect Yumi-sama before her, had simply been carried away to Maria-sama's star; so that even though she could no longer reach them, they were still watching over her from somewhere out there, giving her strength (a conclusion ultimately not empty in looking away from reality considering the real passion for basketball reawakened in Kanako as a result). Kanako's story was thus not only one of tritely learning forgiveness for her father after the disillusionment of a treasured friend, but rather a story of dispelling a shadow of personal failure (remembering Kanako's treatment of Yumi as stemming from a belief in a past failure at protecting a treasured friend), reigniting a life passion, and gaining strength from both her relationships with real people and the treasured dreams and memories she held from before.

>_> <_< Look at me, having written all this and I'm not even a Kanako fan (Noriko and Shimako-san, whose charm and cuteness together are what lured me in from even the midst of a depraved and filthy (more specifically, non-yuri ) H-doujin, are by far the key figures for me instead). However, unlike most of the opinions in this thread, there is no doubt in my mind that even Kanako, outlier to the Rose families that she eventually came to be, stands on her own as a worthy character. Of course, I am speaking from a background of having additionally read all of the thus-far translated novels. However, the main point is just to say that this really goes to show how amazing and special this incredible series really is. Don't write stuff off just as poor writing (well, I dunno if I'd hold that up as a general principle, but in the case of this particular series for sure); try to search for the real story. Something more worthy than you think might be there.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-11-20 at 13:06.
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Old 2010-11-21, 07:45   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Bump. Caught this series about a month ago, have been revisiting a specific few favourite episodes (not this one) in the meantime, and browsing episode threads on animesuki as a result (this one because it was on the front page).

While I give that this story/episode isn't the strongest one of the series, I feel the discussion in this thread has missed a key component of Kanako's character and as such is a disservice both herself and her greater story. While I can't claim to remember all the following details absolutely precisely (considering I only watched the episode once and more recently revisited its story in the novels), I felt the climax of the development in this episode came in the conversation about "Maria-sama's star".

The point has been made that Kanoko's sempai resembles Yumi--I am not particularly clear as to how--but the most important point to take away from this is that Yuuko was also the subject of Kanako's idealization. Kanako--height inherited from her father, so proud of him as her middle-school's basketball coach, and full of admiration for an amazing basketball-club sempai--had this pride ripped away from her as he seemingly took advantage of his position to tear Yuuko, a lifetime of potential ahead of her, away from her cherished promises and dreams. The conclusion at the end of the episode was, although the soeur system did not exist in Kanako's public middle school, that this idealized Yuuko was always the onee-sama who had been in Kanako's heart, both in the past and in the future (incidentally why Yumi could never become Kanako's grande soeur). However, the problem was, that idealized Yuuko-san was only an illusion: Yuuko was never actually perfect--did not manage to thrive in the competitive world of highschool basketball; had to throw away her dreams completely after an irreparable injury; was not torn away from her unlimited potential by a predator of a father, but instead fell in love and was comforted by someone who understood her own weakness. The pivotal resolution for Kanako in this episode was not that Yuuko-sempai was happy contrary to her expectations, but rather that she learned to accept that Yuuko was not as perfect as Kanako had always believed her to be. Not only is the acceptance of this fact the key point to her future forgiveness of her father, continuing relationship with a dear friend, and miraculous love for a newborn sister, it also leads to a fairly a morally/intellectually complicated faith that her past pure-and-innocent idealization of a ”perfect” sempai was not worthless either--that even though the real Yuuko-sempai was not perfect like she always believed her to be, perhaps the sempai she believed in was simply a twin who had flown off to Mars. As she had been told before, perhaps that perfect Yuuko-sempai that she had been robbed of, just like her perfect Yumi-sama before her, had simply been carried away to Maria-sama's star; so that even though she could no longer reach them, they were still watching over her from somewhere out there, giving her strength (a conclusion ultimately not empty in looking away from reality considering the real passion for basketball reawakened in Kanako as a result). Kanako's story was thus not only one of tritely learning forgiveness for her father after the disillusionment of a treasured friend, but rather a story of dispelling a shadow of personal failure (remembering Kanako's treatment of Yumi as stemming from a belief in a past failure at protecting a treasured friend), reigniting a life passion, and gaining strength from both her relationships with real people and the treasured dreams and memories she held from before.

>_> <_< Look at me, having written all this and I'm not even a Kanako fan (Noriko and Shimako-san, whose charm and cuteness together are what lured me in from even the midst of a depraved and filthy (more specifically, non-yuri ) H-doujin, are by far the key figures for me instead). However, unlike most of the opinions in this thread, there is no doubt in my mind that even Kanako, outlier to the Rose families that she eventually came to be, stands on her own as a worthy character. Of course, I am speaking from a background of having additionally read all of the thus-far translated novels. However, the main point is just to say that this really goes to show how amazing and special this incredible series really is. Don't write stuff off just as poor writing (well, I dunno if I'd hold that up as a general principle, but in the case of this particular series for sure); try to search for the real story. Something more worthy than you think might be there.
I can completely understand the whole idealization issue but that's was fairly made clear to Kanako and the readers (which is the most important part) when Yumi and her had the discussion in the greenhouse. I can even understand why the author wanted to settle the issue with her father and friend. The problem though lies in how the issue is handled especially considering the nature of the issue. We're not talking trifling issues here. This is adultery and teen pregnancy. The girl was maybe 14 or 15 at the most at the time. That sort of issue in the book aimed towards young women is too casually handled.

I can understand forgiveness even in that situation but it certainly has to be tempered with warning and caution but it was not. Instead it was filled with excuses for why they were justified in their actions. The mother was some sort of shrew so it's OK! It was love so it was OK! They were both going through tough times so they had pity sex and that's just fine! It seems odd that all of these issues were irrelevant to Kanako and she only focused on her lost idealized Sempai. Does she care about her "shrew" of a mother who has to deal with being a single parent now? She doesn't seem to at all. Guess that means her mother got what was coming to her right? Should have been more docile and compliant like good ole Yuuko. The book sides steps a lot of these issues too casually to be called anything but bad writing. A story of that nature definitely needs more focus and not be settled in fairly short order like it was in the book.

The comparison to Yumi was just awkward cause the most defining thing to Yuuko, from the readers standpoint, is her relationship with the father and her pregnancy. Let's hope Yumi stays away from all middle aged office workers or else she'll be knocked up within a hour!

I love the books and have read all of the translated material also but I also know bad writing when I see it. If a writer ignores issues like these and just focuses on a quick resolution to further only one point or issue then the outcome is always filled with reasoning gaps that most astute readers will find troubling.
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Old 2010-11-21, 10:06   Link #71
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I can completely understand the whole idealization issue but that's was fairly made clear to Kanako and the readers (which is the most important part) when Yumi and her had the discussion in the greenhouse. I can even understand why the author wanted to settle the issue with her father and friend. The problem though lies in how the issue is handled especially considering the nature of the issue. We're not talking trifling issues here. This is adultery and teen pregnancy. The girl was maybe 14 or 15 at the most at the time. That sort of issue in the book aimed towards young women is too casually handled.

I can understand forgiveness even in that situation but it certainly has to be tempered with warning and caution but it was not. Instead it was filled with excuses for why they were justified in their actions. The mother was some sort of shrew so it's OK! It was love so it was OK! They were both going through tough times so they had pity sex and that's just fine! It seems odd that all of these issues were irrelevant to Kanako and she only focused on her lost idealized Sempai. Does she care about her "shrew" of a mother who has to deal with being a single parent now? She doesn't seem to at all. Guess that means her mother got what was coming to her right? Should have been more docile and compliant like good ole Yuuko. The book sides steps a lot of these issues too casually to be called anything but bad writing. A story of that nature definitely needs more focus and not be settled in fairly short order like it was in the book.

The comparison to Yumi was just awkward cause the most defining thing to Yuuko, from the readers standpoint, is her relationship with the father and her pregnancy. Let's hope Yumi stays away from all middle aged office workers or else she'll be knocked up within a hour!

I love the books and have read all of the translated material also but I also know bad writing when I see it. If a writer ignores issues like these and just focuses on a quick resolution to further only one point or issue then the outcome is always filled with reasoning gaps that most astute readers will find troubling.
Regarding Yuuko's age. Kanako is a first year high school student, making her 15-16 years of age. Yuuko was her club sempai, and the events which shaped Kanako's personality had already transpired by the time Kanako entered Lillian, so by deduction Youko was two years older than Kanako. That means Yuuko's pregnancy likely occurred towards the end of her first or start of her second high school year--the most likely age range thus being 16 years old. That's certainly quite early in general terms, but about standard for teenage pregnancy.

Also, as I explained, Kanako's resolution in that story was not about forgiveness. In the first place, Kanako's parents' marriage (at least in terms of their deteriorating relationship) had long ended anyway. Kanako's mother and father separated over the issue of her father being a deadbeat stay-at-home dad who did nothing but reminisce about his glory days as a member of Japan's national basketball team--this is not even an issue of whether they are in love anymore, but rather what he could actually contribute to their child's upbringing and future. However, it is in the nature of a child to want to be able to love their parents, so by the time the primary point of his contact with Kanako was as her middle-school basketball coach and he met Yuuko, Kanako's mother had already become a "single-mother" anyway.

As far as "pity-sex" or whatever is concerned, the key point for Kanako and the story was 1) that this has already been done, and 2) that Yuuko was not coerced or "corrupted". Yuuko approached Kanako's father of her own free will, and they were both weak in succumbing to each other, but the important takeaway for this from Kanako's point of view is not that this is not wrong or disappointing, but that Kanako can not continue to punish herself, her father, and other people (i.e. Yumi for not living up to her expectations) for the sake of an idealized sempai who did not exist. If Kanako continues to blame anybody, then she must also blame the sempai who stands before her herself.

And thus this is the answer to your issues with a "casual" treatment of teen pregnancy or whatever: however regrettable it may indeed have been that Yuuko got pregnant at 16/17, that she had to drop out of school to have a previously married man's baby, the fact remains that he is her dad, and she is her friend. However difficult the road ahead of them may be, it is also a fact that they both chose it of their own free will. As such, is there really any meaning in Kanako despising or denying them? What is done is done, what is the past is the past, and none of this changes the real fact that Kanako now has a miracle of a little sister breathing in front of her, whose existence and future struggles/happiness must not be allowed to be considered a sin. It cannot be said that Kanako has truly forgiven and accepted her father and ex-sempai, because, even more than these real people, it will always be that ideal image/memory whom Kanako will carry in her heart--but even so, it is only a simple fact that (not only for the sake of her little sister, but also her own self) her life, and her relationships with these important people, must move forward.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-11-21 at 12:12. Reason: prettying up my "prose" :P
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Old 2010-11-21, 11:18   Link #72
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Speaking of, I have a related question: do all Japanese men have a fallback position of "going back to the family farm"? It seems that every time a Japanese man fails to get or keep a job in the city, he can just go back and inherit some farm big enough to support him, his elderly parents, and possibly his family.
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