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Old 2010-02-01, 16:10   Link #381
Amalia
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I think that Alto had understood many things from the start, he just played like he didn't notice anything, probably because he didn't want to.
Maybe he was trying to avoid reject Ranka because he liked her as a friend and didn't want to hurt her feelings.
On the other hand when on episode 24 Sheryl told him "you are pretty dense", he said "I have nothing to say on that"...Sheryl meant that he was pretty dense on her loving him but Alto had figured that and the way he answered was like he wanted to let her say the final word without them argue on that moment.
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Old 2010-02-01, 17:13   Link #382
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Also when have I ever taken scenes out of context over the course of this conversation?
I haven't said you've taken them (completely) out of context. I said that you're ignoring context, i.e. in this case, what the other characters think about the situation, or are doing at the time, which even magnuskn has pointed out for 1 and 2.

For 3, you two expect more from Alto (that nice way of asking is rather OOC), whilst I'm fine with the level of objection he put up.

btw, for future reference, a conversation isn't just one line (or many) from one character.

Re: Shaoran,
that thread arose because I asked, albeit indirectly. I've also had to clarify a few other things with you. My point is, if your argument is properly made, I wouldn't have to do that.
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-02-01 at 17:57.
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Old 2010-02-01, 18:39   Link #383
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Alto is bad for Ranka because he's just another doormat brother figure, who doesn't treat her like an adult, or take her as seriously as he possibly should. She needs someone who can be blunt with her, and she in turn needs to be mature enough to think about what they say.
I think it is really not fair to Alto to call him a doormat. There were very few situations in which he had a chance to tell Ranka to grow up, due to the circumstances of what interactions they had in the series.

The scene in her bedroom is actually the only one I see, because he definitely dropped the ball on Ai-kun. Otherwise he didn't have the luxury of scenes where he could have told her to get her head on straight. In the rooftop scene that role was taken by Sheryl. He did yell at her when she was in a world of her own after Nanase got hurt ( and not because of Nanase ) and when she made her inane move at the plaza.

Now, we could say that he should have done so between Michaels death and her departure, because before that she actually was pretty stable and harmless, but he had just lost his best friend and didn't actually know where Ranka was.

A point for your opinion would be that before Ai-kun showed up, he was very calm ( or "doormattish", if you'd prefer that ) with her, but then again he did not really know that she was responsible for the Vajra going wild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
@magnus I know its a conjecture, but then again Alto did know all about Ranka's crush on him despite acting like he didn't, who knows what else he knows.
Still a conjecture. I could as well say "Well, Ranka illegally kept Ai-kun with her all the time, who is to say that she didn't secretly deal in drugs to finance her addiction to high-maintenance male prostitutes?"
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Old 2010-02-02, 17:18   Link #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I haven't said you've taken them (completely) out of context. I said that you're ignoring context, i.e. in this case, what the other characters think about the situation, or are doing at the time, which even magnuskn has pointed out for 1 and 2.

For 3, you two expect more from Alto (that nice way of asking is rather OOC), whilst I'm fine with the level of objection he put up.

btw, for future reference, a conversation isn't just one line (or many) from one character.

Re: Shaoran,
that thread arose because I asked, albeit indirectly. I've also had to clarify a few other things with you. My point is, if your argument is properly made, I wouldn't have to do that.
1. How is that ignoring context?

It was in context that Ranka's friends though supportive of her decision to pursue a singing career, were not shown to be aware of the consequences of her participating in the Miss Macross contest. However once she did get suspended from her school and tried to complain about it to Michael, he pointed out the weakness of her claim. It was also in context that her friends were worried about her being suspended. Those things happened. In this case you're the one ignoring context.

2. Magnuskn corrected me he did chastise her then.

3. Him chastising her then would that he actually cared about what she did

3. It actually not would have been out of character, and would have showed that he actually cared about what Ranka wellbeing outside of saving her from physical harm.

One Line does not equal an entire conversation, but ignoring lines in a conversation doesn't give you a higher ground. In fact ignoring lines in a conversation can outright embarrass you especially if you wish to discredit someone.

If there were things you wanted to make clear, why didn't you ask them? Also some of your retorts were poorly crafted as well, and you strayed away from the point.


@Magnuskn
It was a crisis and he was trying to get her to run, instead of standing there in a daze.

He could have said something at anytime she asked him at anytime Ranka asked him for his opinion, or at least try to encourage her to make her own decisions instead of "Do as you like"(folds a paper plane).

How mean, I wouldn't say that Ranka has no high maintenance male prostitutes around her only Brera who isn't one despite his choice of outfits.
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Old 2010-02-02, 17:21   Link #385
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
@Magnuskn How mean, I wouldn't say that Ranka has no high maintenance male prostitutes around her only Brera who isn't one despite his choice of outfits.
What, you didn't hear the super-secret scoop from Shaloom that Ozma in reality is Rankas love slave? He did get it by means of a romantic dinner with Kawamori...
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Old 2010-02-03, 10:49   Link #386
karice67
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@wisteria233

You're right in that I haven't always made my own argument clear - possibly because I haven't had to since I finished uni. I should also remember that most of you probably don't live in Japan, where people don't spell anything out - it's a bad habit I've picked up. Hence, I'll try to be as clear as I can about what I mean one last time to make sure I won't have to do this again. And I'm going to try to use rebuttals rather than retorts.

Starting with the misunderstandings..

Spoiler for for length...:

____
Spoiler for on context:


Spoiler for on 3 and arguments:

___
Lastly, on your accusation of me "straying away from the point", the flow of the argument was created by of the rebuttals we gave each other.

Spoiler for for length:


As I noted before, I've only seen Frontier once, so I was going by what you said about characters telling Ranka off or not. I did look up a couple of scenes, but I don't have the time nor the inclination to look up lines of dialogue or expressions of concern for a character I care very little about (Ranka, in case you're wondering). I acknowledge that it makes some of my arguments weaker, but at the same time, it doesn't make yours seem any stronger to me, at least for the angle you were arguing from.
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-02-03 at 11:01.
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Old 2010-02-03, 18:23   Link #387
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@magnuskn I wonder if they had Kobe steak and pineapple salad for desert?

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
@wisteria233

You're right in that I haven't always made my own argument clear - possibly because I haven't had to since I finished uni. I should also remember that most of you probably don't live in Japan, where people don't spell anything out - it's a bad habit I've picked up. Hence, I'll try to be as clear as I can about what I mean one last time to make sure I won't have to do this again. And I'm going to try to use rebuttals rather than retorts.

Starting with the misunderstandings..

Spoiler for for length...:
Spoiler for for length...:

____

Quote:
I don't think you really needed to retort here. As I said, I DID ask. And you clarified.
Your wording made it very confusing, it seemed like you were implying that there were other things that confused you.
____
Spoiler for on context:


Quote:
Spoiler for on 3 and arguments:
Actually its not really OOC, its Alto's general behavior towards Ranka when giving her advice.

Thing is though Alto does care for Ranka (in certain areas), and Alto's response don't show much thought, which can also be taken as him not really taking her seriously. Here's an interesting observation when Alto talks to Sheryl he doesn't make paper airplanes, while he's doing it. It kinda shows that his mind is not really on the subject at hand. Alto's interaction towards Ranka is this.
Ranka: (Talks about her problems)
Alto: (Making paper airplanes while Ranka is talking)
Ranka: so, what should I do?
Alto: Just do whatever you want (throws paper plane).

Quote:
Spoiler:
I really don't see how Alto not treating Ranka as his peer (well, no one does), ignoring her affections and then not really taking her seriously (or just not really paying attention) could be a good person for her.
___
Quote:
Lastly, on your accusation of me "straying away from the point", the flow of the argument was created by of the rebuttals we gave each other.
I was talking about when you started bringing up those horrible analogies of human nature.

Spoiler for for size:


Quote:
This may well be conjecture, but I've read that Kawamori-sensei is very eco-conscious, so he might have wanted to raise the point of how dangerous complacency is (through Ranka keeping Ai-kun, and Nanase and Alto not turning her in), and Frontier is an extreme example of what can happen. But we can disagree on the complacency thing too. I'm fine with that.
Actually he is, he's the main director and creator and script writer for Earth Girl Arjuna
which is the preachiest earth friendly series I've ever seen. People call him a hippie for a reason.

Quote:
As I noted before, I've only seen Frontier once, so I was going by what you said about characters telling Ranka off or not. I did look up a couple of scenes, but I don't have the time nor the inclination to look up lines of dialogue or expressions of concern for a character I care very little about (Ranka, in case you're wondering). I acknowledge that it makes some of my arguments weaker, but at the same time, it doesn't make yours seem any stronger to me, at least for the angle you were arguing from.
I don't really have to chat with you either (in fact I have to head out to school soon), I actually made these when I was in the middle reading the Odyssey, and writing an essay for class. Thing is I do care about Ranka and actually like her more than (flame shield on) Lacus Clyne from GS. I reason why I pointed out the facts that your arguments are also weak to show you that you were not much better than me in this.
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Old 2010-02-03, 19:15   Link #388
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I still maintain that the thread would be far more engaging if people were talking about how sexy and charming I could be...

*goes back to pissing all the forest animals off*
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Old 2010-02-03, 20:32   Link #389
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Originally Posted by cheesie View Post
I still maintain that the thread would be far more engaging if people were talking about how sexy and charming I could be...

*goes back to pissing all the forest animals off*
Throw on some kicky leather outfits and I'll think about it
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Old 2010-02-04, 08:27   Link #390
Natsuki Hyuga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesie View Post
I still maintain that the thread would be far more engaging if people were talking about how sexy tsundere-yuri and charming manipulatively broken I could be...

*goes back to pissing all the forest animals off*
I just thought some hellish breeze passed onto this thread for a while there... So I fixed the statement for the best measure *nods* Speculate: when will cheesu finally broke out and proclaim she highly appreciate les yay IRL?

You know this is TRUTH cheesie :I
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Old 2010-02-04, 11:17   Link #391
karice67
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to wisteria233

Spoiler for just 2 short points, but for everyone else's sake...:


to everyone else, apologies for contributing to this mess.

=====

@ DeX
that might be sexy (and seductive), but charming...?
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Old 2010-02-04, 11:47   Link #392
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Episode 8 aside, which was very obviously over the top with *everybody*, I have yet to see those "crazy antics" you are attributing to Sheryl.

And as for her maturity, she a.) chose to DIE for the people of Frontier and b.) to try to spare Alto the pain of seeing her die, which is why she tried to keep her illness secret from him. Not to forget her singing for the people in the shelter, telling Alto and the others to go and end the threat of the Vajra, while she was in definite danger, taking care of Nanase, etc, etc, etc. And etc..
I feel that in general, people mature very quickly in the face of death.

If Ranka was put in the same situation, the same set of choices and the amount of time to deal with the fact she were dying, I think Ranka would do all A & B.

To Sheryl, her life meant little due to the fact it had very little time in the first plac,e so any sacrificial actions are pretty reasonable. On top of that she didn't have the massive insecurity Ranka suffered upon seeing the two of them on the rooftop. Her song is also not powerful enough for the Vajira to go on rampage so her singing had more good in it than bad. If Ranka wasn't afraid of the Vajira going crazy and if she wasn't as shocked as she was, I doubt she would have hesitated in song either.

I would believe that the biggest difference would be in the matter of how she would cope with her death. Unlike Sheryl who had very little people to trust, Ranka has survived on other people looking after her, so i am sure if she were to be the one facing inevitable death, she'd not only confess to Alto, she'd also tell him of the situation. Either that or I'd think she'd have a much harder time hiding it from Alto than Sheryl does, but I don't necessarily see this as a horrible thing.

I also do not think she would have been mature enough to look after Nanase, but I think that's more due to her trauma rather than her personal sense of immaturity.





I have also definitely mentioned other antics, but I can add a few if you would like it that much. Her pursuing Alto when looking for her earring was pretty over the top don't you think? So that's prior to ep8 which was a giant blob of crazy. There was also the entirety of Star Date which I have already mentioned. Her actions when deadly ill was to get out of hospital deadly feverish and sit on a bench to wait for Alto, and deny she ever came to see him. Anything past that she was too sick and too depressive to act like her natural self :<



Sheryl was never some noble deity, and for that I am glad. I LIKE that she is human and has immature sides. I find 100% mature characters boring but Sheryl has always had a nice balance. She also had a really good amount of luck (or in some cases ill luck that forces her to mature) whereas I feel Ranka has frequently been given the short end of the stick for someone placed in such a main character style role (magical abilities, super fanclub friends, traumatic past, center of entire plot, cinderella sotry, etc etc etc).


I Still love Sheryl much more, but I've grown to feel some amount of sympathy towards Ranka whom I use to despise.
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Old 2010-02-04, 13:33   Link #393
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
@ DeX
that might be sexy (and seductive), but charming...?
Well, what you see as charming is not the same way I see it
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Old 2010-02-04, 13:37   Link #394
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Originally Posted by ippus View Post
I feel that in general, people mature very quickly in the face of death.

If Ranka was put in the same situation, the same set of choices and the amount of time to deal with the fact she were dying, I think Ranka would do all A & B.
Actually, while she was not put in the situation that she would die from illness, she was put on the spot quite a bit during episodes 20+21 and cracked pretty much, then fled from Frontier. I think I can definitely say that she did not mature in a way even remotely comparable to Sheryl. Granted, Sheryl did have more time to come to grips with her condition, but the difference is that for Sheryl there already was a solid foundation of being mature in her decisions, which Ranka never had and never did aquire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ippus View Post
To Sheryl, her life meant little due to the fact it had very little time in the first plac,e so any sacrificial actions are pretty reasonable. On top of that she didn't have the massive insecurity Ranka suffered upon seeing the two of them on the rooftop. Her song is also not powerful enough for the Vajira to go on rampage so her singing had more good in it than bad. If Ranka wasn't afraid of the Vajira going crazy and if she wasn't as shocked as she was, I doubt she would have hesitated in song either.
Actually, if Sheryl would have taken her pills and stopped using her enhanced powers, she would probably have lived for a few years without dying. At least that is what can be reasonably inferred from events in episode 23, in regards to what Alto says after putting Sheryl to bed and in her conversation with Luca.

In the end, your comparison doesn't work too well, since one ( Rankas ) is under direct duress and time constraints. Sheryls decision is more deliberate, although the emotional strain must have been immense, too.

If you want to make a more meaningful direct comparison, you'd have to take go with either a.) highly stressfull situations under time constraints ( the Vajra larva attack on Frontier would be the best, since both of them were caught up in the situation ) or b.) stressfull situations on a more deliberate time scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ippus View Post
I have also definitely mentioned other antics, but I can add a few if you would like it that much. Her pursuing Alto when looking for her earring was pretty over the top don't you think? So that's prior to ep8 which was a giant blob of crazy. There was also the entirety of Star Date which I have already mentioned. Her actions when deadly ill was to get out of hospital deadly feverish and sit on a bench to wait for Alto, and deny she ever came to see him. Anything past that she was too sick and too depressive to act like her natural self :<
What? No, I do not think taking a reluctant guy out for a date is "crazy".

And the action with sneaking out of the hospital was more along the lines of "desperately in love and lonely". And stubborn. But not "crazy".

Your definition of crazy definitely is miles away from mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ippus View Post
Sheryl was never some noble deity, and for that I am glad. I LIKE that she is human and has immature sides. I find 100% mature characters boring but Sheryl has always had a nice balance. She also had a really good amount of luck (or in some cases ill luck that forces her to mature) whereas I feel Ranka has frequently been given the short end of the stick for someone placed in such a main character style role (magical abilities, super fanclub friends, traumatic past, center of entire plot, cinderella sotry, etc etc etc).
I think we are really talking about different definitions of "immature". For me, Sheryls whole personality is enthusiastic, if inexperienced due to her upbringing. She still has an impressive depth of character, the desire to help others and, even if she is a bit arrogant, the ability to not look down on others. Her "take charge" personality is very sympathic, to say the least.

She has a very good balance of being cheery and young, with the contrast being serious about her work and displaying impressive leadership qualities. When tragedy hits, she loses a lot of her good cheer but she can rely on the solid foundations she already had to catch her fall. After losing it for a short time when she learns of her illness, she gets on her feet and makes the best of it.


Compare that to Ranka, who stumbles from one lucky break to the next, but never really seems to learn from her experiences, farming out all responsibilities to the other people around her.

If I talk about Sheryl being mature and Ranka being immature, I do not mean that both are having happy days and behave like young girls at some times.

I mean that one of them is capable of learning and adapting and the other one didn't even try to comprehend the lessons of life given to her and when she finds herself with the foundations crumbling under her, she is not capable of dealing with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ippus View Post
I Still love Sheryl much more, but I've grown to feel some amount of sympathy towards Ranka whom I use to despise.
Well, I got pity for Ranka, which is about the best I can do. Because it's a pity that she alone of all characters in Macross Frontier was never allowed to grow beyond a pathetic moeblob "Save me Alto-kun!" character. Well, Nanase got it worse, but she was not even remotely a mainstay of the series.

She could have been better and I still am debating myself if Kawamori did intentionally screw her over, like Crusader asserts, or if it was a failure of the writers, due to either bad writing or monetary calculations.

I tend to lean in the direction of Kawamori deliberately disassembling the whole "moe" character type, because the writing for most other characters was bloody fantastic.
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Old 2010-02-04, 15:52   Link #395
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can someone summarize what the arguing is about? not sure I want to read the whole thing, but I am curious to know what is going on lol...

@karice67
Nah, you are not contributing to any mess, it's just the characteristic of this sub-forum XD
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Old 2010-02-04, 18:37   Link #396
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Well, what you see as charming is not the same way I see it
You're definitely right on that. Touche.

@ justavisitor
Spoiler for short point form summary:
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-02-04 at 19:44.
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Old 2010-02-04, 18:44   Link #397
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
@ justavisitor[*]I was trying to point out why her examples don't convince me that "Alto is bad for Ranka" with regards to the two points above. (Though neither was I arguing that, based on what happened in the show, "Alto is good for Ranka" per se.)
Fixed Wisteria is actually a female (Don't worry, I made the same mistake a while back.)
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Old 2010-02-04, 19:05   Link #398
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Fixed Wisteria is actually a female (Don't worry, I made the same mistake a while back.)
One of the nice points of the Macross forums: Quite a lot of the posters here are actual real life women, not guys pretending to be ones.
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Old 2010-02-04, 19:45   Link #399
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Thanks. Didn't know that.
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Old 2010-02-04, 21:02   Link #400
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Originally Posted by ippus View Post
I feel that in general, people mature very quickly in the face of death.

If Ranka was put in the same situation, the same set of choices and the amount of time to deal with the fact she were dying, I think Ranka would do all A & B.
Err umm...remembering how much shit Ranka caused over a heartbreak, I'd shudder to think what would have happened if someone delivered a pineapple flag to her.

(And I still cannot get over how Ranka only thought of her one-sided feelings for Alto and her heartbreak as she sang Aimo--after Michel died! I could forgive if it was some random extra, but Michel! That part really ticked me off. Your friend just died and you think about that?! @%#^%@!!! I'm sorry, I consider that as utter bullshit.)
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