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Old 2010-03-12, 19:32   Link #521
justinstrife
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Unfortunately Magnuskn I can't give cookies as it says I need to spread them around more. Your essay, and follow-up arguments were spot on IMO. I'll just have to spread more cookies around so you can have some good old Oatmeal Raisin.
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Old 2010-03-12, 20:04   Link #522
wisteria233
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Spoiler for for length:


Wow nicely written, though I would like to add that the fact that Alto and Sheryl apparently live together so in order for Ranka to get in between that she'd have to be incredibly bold, and its just in her personality.

I myself was put off by Ranka in the last episode. She was just crying 5 episodes ago, about the fact that Alto "can't hear her song", she doesn't talk to him directly at all for 4 episodes. But he saves her life in episode 25 (with help mind you, and much coercing from Sheryl) and suddenly she's willing to "fight for his love" again, as though her revelation in episode 21 didn't happen. It was like she took one step forward and 20 steps back.

You don't have to be in love to save someone's life.
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Old 2010-03-12, 23:12   Link #523
karice67
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The teacher who taught me how to structure an essay would have a field day with all of us calling your analysis an essay. However, although I feel that at least the following part:
Spoiler for quote from original essay:
should probably have one or two concrete examples of what Sheryl actually did rather than what viewers can infer from her actions, you've made some excellent points. I especially liked the (later) argument you made about Alto making an adult decision (rather than a GAR one).

I've never really thought about this in that much detail, and the arguments seem to be scattered all over this forum, so I'm glad you've put it all in one post to consider. Nice work!!
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Old 2010-03-13, 03:52   Link #524
sweetgirl121
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*applause*
magnuskn your post reflect exactly the way I view the love triangle.
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Old 2010-03-13, 04:42   Link #525
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Unfortunately Magnuskn I can't give cookies as it says I need to spread them around more. Your essay, and follow-up arguments were spot on IMO. I'll just have to spread more cookies around so you can have some good old Oatmeal Raisin.
Thanks, can't wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Wow nicely written, though I would like to add that the fact that Alto and Sheryl apparently live together so in order for Ranka to get in between that she'd have to be incredibly bold, and its just in her personality.
Damn, I forgot that at the end? Well, as I look over it, I see that I wrote that Sheryl takes Alto home to their mutual home, so I kind of had it in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I myself was put off by Ranka in the last episode. She was just crying 5 episodes ago, about the fact that Alto "can't hear her song", she doesn't talk to him directly at all for 4 episodes. But he saves her life in episode 25 (with help mind you, and much coercing from Sheryl) and suddenly she's willing to "fight for his love" again, as though her revelation in episode 21 didn't happen. It was like she took one step forward and 20 steps back.

You don't have to be in love to save someone's life.
Indeed.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The teacher who taught me how to structure an essay would have a field day with all of us calling your analysis an essay.
Yeah, analysis may have been the better name for it, it was a bit short for an essay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
However, although I feel that at least the following part:
Spoiler for quote from original essay:
should probably have one or two concrete examples of what Sheryl actually did rather than what viewers can infer from her actions, you've made some excellent points. I especially liked the (later) argument you made about Alto making an adult decision (rather than a GAR one).
You want examples of her being a determinator or of her putting Altos happyness and Rankas safety ahead of her wishes?

As for the first:

- Episode three, her big speech to Alto and Ranka about making your own destiny, which served as a prime motivator for the other two mains for much of the series.
- She cajoled Alto into their date.
- She got a place in Altos school, probably with absolutely no former school credentials.
-etc etc.

As for the second:

- The bedside scene, with her almost literally knocking herself out, because she wants to give Alto his present.
- Her telling Alto to "bring Ranka back, even if it costs you your life" in the air battle above Gallia IV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I've never really thought about this in that much detail, and the arguments seem to be scattered all over this forum, so I'm glad you've put it all in one post to consider. Nice work!!
I am sure there is a lot of stuff I missed, but that would have required serious research, instead of just going off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by sweetgirl121 View Post
*applause*
magnuskn your post reflect exactly the way I view the love triangle.
Thank you!
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Old 2010-03-13, 20:08   Link #526
Swampstorm
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magnus:
While your essay is an interesting read, I don't think that you actually addressed your original point: namely, to prove that Ranka doesn't have a chance of ending up with Alto. To do so, you would need to be able to prove what Alto's feelings were for each girl.

Your post seemed to be much more focused on discussing the character development and maturity of the protagonists. Those are both interesting topics, but I think they belong to a different essay.

Note: I've been observing this weird "Link to the Past" effect lately, where I see people make posts in the "Light World," but I read the replies in the "Dark World" instead. How mysterious.

Mei19:
I'm always a bit wary when I hear the word "bias" thrown around. I'm yet to meet someone who isn't biased towards his/her own opinion. Likewise, the claim that a particular post is "unbiased" really is nothing more than an appeal to authority.

I've always found the exchange between Alto and Ozma to be an interesting one. For one, it represents a shift in Ozma's thinking about Alto. In episode eighteen, Ozma recognizes that he can't protect Ranka as he is and entrusts her safety to Alto. In episode twenty-two, Ozma takes his role back again, telling Alto that he never intended to let Alto in on the plan, since Alto is inflexible.

Up until now, Alto has been simply following orders. But as Ozma points out, Alto needs to choose his own path, as both Ranka and Ozma have done. By deciding that his wings are for Frontier, Alto is no longer Leon's puppet; as we see in the final episode, he is even willing to work alongside Leon's enemies (the Vajra included) to protect the home that he now loves.

There actually is no mention of Alto deciding to between being "an adult" or "a man": the original question is directed towards Ozma. But I would have thought that the answer was obvious by now.

Alto is a woman.
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Old 2010-03-13, 20:30   Link #527
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
magnus:
While your essay is an interesting read, I don't think that you actually addressed your original point: namely, to prove that Ranka doesn't have a chance of ending up with Alto. To do so, you would need to be able to prove what Alto's feelings were for each girl.

Your post seemed to be much more focused on discussing the character development and maturity of the protagonists. Those are both interesting topics, but I think they belong to a different essay.
No, I think those are exactly the pertinent points. As you said, Altos feelings weren't clearly stated in the end.

In absence of that, logical progression of what would happen after the last credits roll has to be extrapolated by different measures.

a.) Prior behaviour patterns
b.) History between the characters
c.) Emotional state and state of development of the characters

My point was to "prove" or at least approximate to proof that Sheryl and Alto, due to their prior behaviour patterns, their shared history and their state of delopment ( i.e. maturity ) were so far ahead of Ranka, that Alto would have no inclination to get into a romantic relationship with her and would be drawn to Sheryl, who shared much more of what he had gone through in the harrowing experiences of the last half of the series.

There are still pertinent points about Rankas state in the end which I could have made ( and forgot to add due to bleary eyes in the night ), such as that she doesn't even have the personality to start an aggressive campaign to woo Alto away from Sheryl, neither in energy nor in ruthlessness.

As for Alto, what exact reason would actually have to choose Ranka? He doesn't seem to be the type to want someone as partner who is as easily cajoled and subservient as Ranka has been shown to be.
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Old 2010-03-13, 20:50   Link #528
DeX-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Mei19:
I'm always a bit wary when I hear the word "bias" thrown around. I'm yet to meet someone who isn't biased towards his/her own opinion. Likewise, the claim that a particular post is "unbiased" really is nothing more than an appeal to authority.
I don't believe there is such a thing as being "unbiased" especially when it deals with something as sensitive as this, but I do believe there is a way to prove a point without being too heavily biased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
I've always found the exchange between Alto and Ozma to be an interesting one. For one, it represents a shift in Ozma's thinking about Alto. In episode eighteen, Ozma recognizes that he can't protect Ranka as he is and entrusts her safety to Alto. In episode twenty-two, Ozma takes his role back again, telling Alto that he never intended to let Alto in on the plan, since Alto is inflexible.

Up until now, Alto has been simply following orders. But as Ozma points out, Alto needs to choose his own path, as both Ranka and Ozma have done. By deciding that his wings are for Frontier, Alto is no longer Leon's puppet; as we see in the final episode, he is even willing to work alongside Leon's enemies (the Vajra included) to protect the home that he now loves.

There actually is no mention of Alto deciding to between being "an adult" or "a man": the original question is directed towards Ozma. But I would have thought that the answer was obvious by now.

Alto is a woman.
This is a very interesting take on the subject but I don't believe that it is the home (i.e. - Frontier) that he now loves but rather the experiences and the people he cared for that he loved. Alto's decision to be an adult rather than a man was made because his circumstances won't allow him to be a man, at least in my opinion. Mei's question was "which one did Alto truly want to be, without causing him grief?" and I believe that he might of wanted to be a man but he realized that the wants of many outweighs his wants.

Alto being as indecisive as always, Ozma had to take the initiative to rescue Ranka considering the danger she was in. Then we have the conversation with Klan in episode 23 which I believe also coincides with his decision between being an adult or a man. Obviously Alto chooses to be an adult but, was that what he truly wanted?
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Old 2010-03-13, 21:07   Link #529
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Alto being as indecisive as always, Ozma had to take the initiative to rescue Ranka considering the danger she was in. Then we have the conversation with Klan in episode 23 which I believe also coincides with his decision between being an adult or a man. Obviously Alto chooses to be an adult but, was that what he truly wanted?
Is that want any man truly wants? Being a hot-blooded fly-by-the-seat-of-your pants shoot-from-the-hip guy is what most guys want. But as you said, the need of the many supercede the need to be a macho. For adult people, at least.
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Old 2010-03-14, 00:12   Link #530
Death Header
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Quote:
she doesn't even have the personality to start an aggressive campaign to woo Alto away from Sheryl, neither in energy nor in ruthlessness.
And yet, if Ranka would ever do that, she would probably be considered an antagonist in the series instead of the protagonist solely on the fact that she is trying to cause a problem for the protagonist (Alto).

This is assuming that Alto and Sheryl have gotten together. Hats off to you magnuskn.
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Last edited by Death Header; 2010-03-14 at 00:32.
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Old 2010-03-14, 02:52   Link #531
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Very good job Magnus

Although your being watched

Yea! I can lurk too. Muahahaha! So I guess if you want to see more replies to your post Magnus, just look there.

Though really, should I be adding more fuel to the fire?


PS - People may think its mean to link that, but I find it to be more fair for people to know what others are saying about their post... even in a different forum. Especially where there are counter arguments to it. It lets the original poster be able to defend their points and the commenter to theirs.

Last edited by MichiNekoChan; 2010-03-14 at 03:03. Reason: Adding my PS
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Old 2010-03-14, 03:33   Link #532
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LOL, it was only a matter of time for someone to link that.
Miki, you are a brave soul. XD
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Old 2010-03-14, 04:13   Link #533
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Death Header View Post
And yet, if Ranka would ever do that, she would probably be considered an antagonist in the series instead of the protagonist solely on the fact that she is trying to cause a problem for the protagonist (Alto).

This is assuming that Alto and Sheryl have gotten together. Hats off to you magnuskn.
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan View Post
Very good job Magnus

Although your being watched

Yea! I can lurk too. Muahahaha! So I guess if you want to see more replies to your post Magnus, just look there.

Though really, should I be adding more fuel to the fire?


PS - People may think its mean to link that, but I find it to be more fair for people to know what others are saying about their post... even in a different forum. Especially where there are counter arguments to it. It lets the original poster be able to defend their points and the commenter to theirs.
Yeah, okay. NOT discussing with BleachOD, that'd hurt my head more than what it is worth. I really can't take more rounds of "Sheryl is a needy weakling blobber globber globber smiley-bombs!" The original ones one year ago were too much.

Honestly, if someone wants to discuss, come to this forum. I am not talking with the crazy person again.
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Last edited by magnuskn; 2010-03-14 at 04:27.
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Old 2010-03-14, 04:22   Link #534
Mei19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post

Alto is a woman.
I KNEW IT. I knew someone will say this.

Everyone has bias for they have opinions. But me is sure you've also met people who don't let their bias talk for them. Tis impossible that they don't exist.

Arigatou for the mixed explanations. I've shaped my own interpretation of the scene too after reading some responses.
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Old 2010-03-14, 10:45   Link #535
BetoJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Alto being as indecisive as always, Ozma had to take the initiative to rescue Ranka considering the danger she was in.
What danger? I mean, really, did anyone in the show even think she actually was in some kind of danger, so that she needed to be rescued?

The Quarter crew didn't really seem all that concerned about poor Ranka, IMHO... so, another notch off the "indecisive Alto" schtick, for me.
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Old 2010-03-14, 11:13   Link #536
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
What danger? I mean, really, did anyone in the show even think she actually was in some kind of danger, so that she needed to be rescued?

The Quarter crew didn't really seem all that concerned about poor Ranka, IMHO... so, another notch off the "indecisive Alto" schtick, for me.
Not to mention that the Quarter crew didn't really go after Rank, per se, but went off and gathered incriminating information on Grace.
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Old 2010-03-14, 12:33   Link #537
Death Header
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Yeah, okay. NOT discussing with BleachOD, that'd hurt my head more than what it is worth. I really can't take more rounds of "Sheryl is a needy weakling blobber globber globber smiley-bombs!" The original ones one year ago were too much.

Honestly, if someone wants to discuss, come to this forum. I am not talking with the crazy person again.
If there's one thing that OD got right, it's that images are worth more than words. OD's argument worked to an extent (they were good arguments, to me anyways), but unfortunately he got swamped later on.
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Old 2010-03-14, 14:14   Link #538
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Death Header View Post
If there's one thing that OD got right, it's that images are worth more than words. OD's argument worked to an extent (they were good arguments, to me anyways), but unfortunately he got swamped later on.
I'd rather say that they were a incoherent mess since the start. But let's agree to disagree.
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Old 2010-03-14, 14:22   Link #539
DeX-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
What danger? I mean, really, did anyone in the show even think she actually was in some kind of danger, so that she needed to be rescued?

The Quarter crew didn't really seem all that concerned about poor Ranka, IMHO... so, another notch off the "indecisive Alto" schtick, for me.
Ranka left a letter explaining what her plans were so I'm pretty sure Ozma and the Quarter crew knew she was in some sort of danger but that's besides the point, the Quarter crew has nothing to do with Alto being indecisive.

The point I was trying to make was that Alto was still in dire straits about Ranka's decision to leave but he wasn't going to abandon Frontier because of something he wanted to do.
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Old 2010-03-14, 18:18   Link #540
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan View Post
Very good job Magnus

Although your being watched

Yea! I can lurk too. Muahahaha! So I guess if you want to see more replies to your post Magnus, just look there.

Though really, should I be adding more fuel to the fire?


PS - People may think its mean to link that, but I find it to be more fair for people to know what others are saying about their post... even in a different forum. Especially where there are counter arguments to it. It lets the original poster be able to defend their points and the commenter to theirs.
Having read some of the responses there it kinda solidifies my views on most Ranka fans. I kinda LOL'd at some of the responses honestly. It seems like they like like AruRanka there without needlessly bashing Sheryl. Then again I've already been warned away enough from that forum that I would never think to join it.
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