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Old 2011-02-27, 20:47   Link #841
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Um. I agree, however, Word of God (Kawamori himself) said Macross should depict a "love triangle against the backdrop of great battles".
But, IIRC, he said that a couple of decades ago, about the first series. Subsequent series have not always followed that pattern of emphasis. No one, for example, would use it as a description of Macross 7.
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Old 2011-02-27, 20:54   Link #842
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
But, IIRC, he said that a couple of decades ago, about the first series. Subsequent series have not always followed that pattern of emphasis. No one, for example, would use it as a description of Macross 7.
This is true, although I think Plus and Zero both had an emphasis on the love story, IMO (Plus, in particular did a good job with the triangle). As for... Macross 7... I don't know what was Kawamori thinking when he thought the Protodeviln were a good idea for antagonists...
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Old 2011-02-27, 21:01   Link #843
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I'm not sure how much weight Macross 7 should be given here. I've read that Kawamori was not heavily involved in that one, but then on the other hand I believe he mentioned the concept of a singer/fighter pilot in an old interview and he is credited with the story concept. Make of that what you will.
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Old 2011-02-27, 21:17   Link #844
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I'm not sure how much weight Macross 7 should be given here. I've read that Kawamori was not heavily involved in that one, but then on the other hand I believe he mentioned the concept of a singer/fighter pilot in an old interview and he is credited with the story concept. Make of that what you will.
I wouldn't use the description to apply to Macross Zero, either, though. Plus is arguable.
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Old 2011-02-27, 22:01   Link #845
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I wouldn't use the description to apply to Macross Zero, either, though. Plus is arguable.
Yeah, not much of a triangle going on with ZERO. Shinn knew who he wanted, and Mao had, more or less, an infatuation.

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Old 2011-02-27, 23:26   Link #846
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Um. I agree, however, Word of God (Kawamori himself) said Macross should depict a "love triangle against the backdrop of great battles".

Resolution IS part of any good storytelling.

Would it be good storytelling if the plot was about the war and the series depicted what started it, how it executed it and then we see the ending credits before we know the outcome? No. Of course not. That's shoddy storytelling. It's obvious of why Kawamori wasn't pleased with Yoshino for leaving the triangle like that, when for him, Macross is a love story first.

The problem in the TV series was that there was NOT a resolution, not even OT3 as the phrase Alto said (you are both my wings) were not meant in a romantic sense.

It's like it ended with Frontier and the Vajyra staring at each others, still no certainty if there's ceasefire or they are at war. Had the focus be the battles (but it's not), would you think that's a proper ending?
Indeed, the focus is not on battles or fighting in general but on conflict resolution, whether between people (the love story part) or between species (the war part).

There was no outcome to the war in terms of winning or losing. Both sides gained mutual understanding and ended the conflict. Same with the triangle, at the end Ranka, Sheryl and Alto had solved their personal problems/conflicts by helping each other and understand each others feelings better. There was no winner or loser in the sense of one girl beating the other for Altos affections.

SDFM needed a resolution because Minmay and Misa lived in different world and Hikaru could not be part of both their lives. Getting closer to one means drifting away from the other. Alto never had that problem with Ranka and Sheryl as both never seemed out of reach for him.

In Newtype nr.7 2008 interview with Kanno and Kawamori is mentioned that no single artists vocals could cover the range of songs planned for Frontier. This problem was solved in the planning stage by creating Sheryl and Ranka as two separate characters. I guess that if either had not been a singer then the pull on Alto could have been stronger.
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Old 2011-02-28, 01:12   Link #847
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In Newtype nr.7 2008 interview with Kanno and Kawamori is mentioned that no single artists vocals could cover the range of songs planned for Frontier. This problem was solved in the planning stage by creating Sheryl and Ranka as two separate characters. I guess that if either had not been a singer then the pull on Alto could have been stronger.
This is in terms of the war plot and pop music, yes, but not the love triangle. Yot-chan has said a few times that the ending was not Kawamori's brainchild (notice the shift of tone and atmosphere in episode 25) and was against it (in previous Q&A, it was stated Alto would realize his feelings and move in some big way). Yoshino (the scriptwriter) gave an ending where Alto didn't decide aloud, not because he loved both in the same way, but he lacked self-awareness (even if he admits that, to him, he tried to convey his feelings for Sheryl in episode 24).

Now light novels wise, this changes.
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Old 2011-02-28, 04:19   Link #848
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The love triangle is essential to the overall storyline of Frontier, that's true, but it's resolution is not. At least not in the TV-series. The pivotal moment in the series is in ep 25 when the three way friendship/romance of Ranka, Alto and Sheryl expressed in song makes the Vaijra understand humans thereby turn around the battle and end the conflict. The final scene on the planet is just aftermath.

Frontiers last episodes set up a brilliant inversion of the DYRL finale. I find it quite grating that shippers often ignore that, so they can complain about Kawamori not letting their girl win Alto's heart. As if it's a random harem comedy. Ah well, rant mode off...
Given that the romance was front-and-center throughout the entire series, the non-resolution of it weakened the show as a whole considerably.
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Old 2011-02-28, 05:36   Link #849
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Moved from the movie thread:

Spoiler for spoiler:


Spoiler for more spoilers:
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Old 2011-02-28, 05:44   Link #850
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Tonight, we toast to a fine glass of Ranka fanboy/girl tears.
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Old 2011-02-28, 05:46   Link #851
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Tonight, we toast to a fine glass of Ranka fanboy/girl tears.
You know, I was wondering how they were taking it. But I don't want to risk the possible sanity loss of reading BleachOD's ravings.

<toasts>
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Old 2011-02-28, 05:46   Link #852
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Tonight, we toast to a fine glass of Ranka fanboy/girl tears.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_HkB6bfLqU

LETS HAVE A TOAST
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Old 2011-02-28, 06:48   Link #853
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You AxS and AxR plus SxR fans are just delusional for the second movie. They do not have moments as emotional as...

Spoiler for T'is is the pairing that shall STRIKE THE HEAVENS WITH TEARS:
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Old 2011-02-28, 08:20   Link #854
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Think the real reason why a lot of Ranka are upset, is because they projected their selves into the character (even though for quite a few I've spoken to her personality was different from their own), and kind of thought her to be audience surrogate (even though she is not) and so expected her to win based on that merit alone, while systematically ignoring the actual events of the series, and logic.
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Old 2011-02-28, 08:44   Link #855
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So Ranka was the big fan favorite but as soon as the first episode aired it was Sheryl?

Also every Ranka and Alto encounter for the majority of the series was only about her, she never tried to understand him at all for the majority of the series until the plot called upon her to do so, was entirely self centered though no intentional at all. Sheryl otoh was the one who actively took an interest in Alto, his dreams and tried to grant them like his wish to fly in a real sky, which she tried to fulfill to the point of collapsing.
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Old 2011-02-28, 08:53   Link #856
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Deculture episode happened before any of that....

Also the vast majority of popular characters from the last decade are and/or look young.

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Old 2011-02-28, 09:50   Link #857
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Excuse me, but base that 'logic' on something else.

Honestly, personality is what boys look for. After all, marriage is forever. Sheryl was constantly, in the series, treating Alto like a dog and pushing him around, making light of his shortcomings; whilst Ranka accepted them and adored him for who he was. That alone gave her a BIG boost considering how his father treated him, making him go for a dream he never wanted.
Again not really Sheryl's personality was basically just like Mikhail's, and she treated Alto the same way Mikhail treated him. I think that a guy wouldn't want to be put on a pedastool like Ranka did with Alto, because what if they don't live up to the expectations the girl has for him? Some guys also want a girls to be truthful to them, and tell him exactly what they think, not be star struck by how pretty they are.

Adding on to that Ranka also made no effort to really get to know Alto, who knew that she liked him. Nanase even pointed out in episode 11 that Alto seemed to be close to Sheryl, enough so much so she thought they were dating. Ranka didn't adore Alto for who he was because she barely knew him, because she didn't make the extra effort to get to know him. Also its called a Tsundere.

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Audience surrogate or not, Ranka WAS a big fan favorite; but then Ep1 of the Deculture edition appeared on the TV. Everyone adored Sheryl's live performance and so, they voted for Sheryl. Kawamori eventually gave up around Ep10 to increase Ranka's character at all given how the audience responded to her originally. So by Ep10, we see a little of Kawamori's destructed moral for Ranka by her reaction to Alto and Sheryl's kiss on the beach (sadness and despair).
Actually only in the first couple of episodes did Ranka have more popularity by episodes 4-11 both Ranka and Sheryl were equal in popularity with Sheryl approaching the lead. then 12- 14 Ranka was ahead and her popularity was at its peak, then in 15- 17 they were even again. Sheryl didn't really dominate until the later episodes 18-25. I also remember how much of the audience thought that Sheryl was a bitch in the first couple of episodes and much of her current fans didn't really like her, don't believe look back for the old episode threads.


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My thoughts on this is that Kawamori wanted the triangle to end differently this time by pushing Ranka forward and making HER become the one who'd win his heart in the end. That way, the younger girl wins and the way of his triangles isn't seen as the "same boring end every time" as it always has. But after seeing how Sheryl was accepted, he couldn't stop himself from going with the money maker. I don't blame him and I don't bash Sheryl (as she's a character for crying out loud); but if we were making decisions on real people, I would've slapped Kawamori and said "is there something wrong with a 15-year-old school girl loving a senior!?"
Except like I said before Ranka never spent much time with Alto, even in the tv series. Any time they spent together was just platonic with Ranka doing all of the talking and Alto just providing her with advice. Your basing all your arguments off of just needless what your own theories instead of what really happened, and actual events. Also you are blaming Kawamori and you are bashing Sheryl for essentially being of the love triangle. The younger girl also never wins in Macross so I don't know where your theories come from.

Quote:
Throughout the whole series and movie (haven't seen 2 to truly know), I could see the AruRan coming because of how Sheryl acted towards Alto just on a daily basis before the TRUE war began upon them. If Alto and Sheryl were alone in a house, married, I think he wouldn't be able to truly put up with her teasing over his past. After all, he seemed truly traumatized by the events of his mother and the pressure his father put on him.
One question why? Alto had to be forced into spending time with Ranka in the tv series, and even then any time they spent together sans episode 15 was platonic. Sheryl pretty much treated Alto the same way that Mikahail treated him. being honest with him and telling him the truth even if he doesn't want to hear it. Alto also wasn't just allowing her to treat him any old how, he would be snarky with her, whenever she was being pushy. It was to the point where Ranka's friends thought that Alto and Sheryl were dating, which they would have correct. Also Sheryl wouldn't tease him about his past but his pretty face, which Mikhail did as well. She never pressured him into anything, he pretty much just went along with it. Sheryl also was the reason why Alto decided to break his vow to himself and ultimately go back home.

Adding in with that I think you are mistaking motivating someone and giving them advice with actually liking them romantically. You don't have to like someone or know them very well to listen to their problems and provide them with motivation. And I'm saying this from experience, as there was time I was ready to give up without trying and total stranger came up to me and told me not to give up, that was the push I needed to go forward. And even then the war against the vajra started in the first episode, so you can't say if there wasn't a war because it was the war that allowed for Alto and Ranka to even get a chance to know his name. Meanwhile even if the vajra never attacked in episode 1 Sheryl probably still would have gotten to know Alto because her earring dropped into his flight suit, when he tried to show off during her concert and failed.

Even in the tv series it was implied that he was spending significantly more time with Sheryl than what was shown.

Even in the movie the first movie the time they spent together was platonic, and that Alto was only talking to her on a personal level because she was his friend, not because he had romantic feelings to her. Also in the first movie Alto was wholly reluctant to being wary of Sheryl, and avoiding her. Even though Ozma kept on pushing him to ignore her in the end he couldn't. He went against Ozma's orders and went to see Sheryl.

Quote:
Alto was truly a hard character to read, as he doesn't have a lot of facial expressions, but Ep21 with him and Ranka, when he thanks her for saying his dream is beautiful was the most romantic expression I've ever seen on his face. It was like he'd said "you... want to fly like my mother... I've found my woman!" Sheryl's plane, however, fell. Ranka's flew high and then was caught by Ai-kun. Remember that the plane is a symbol. Which also made me do a double-take at the "facepalm" ending of Ep25.
Alto had to teach Ranka how to make a paper plane, and how to fly it, even then that's an alternate reading of the imagery isn't it? A reading which could have been based on a red herring. Here's another reading of the paper planes the planes represent their feelings at the time Ranka feels happy that she's spending time with Alto, and her plane flew, but Sheryl's paper plane fell because of her heavy feelings. Sheryl also asked him the question in episode 7, and she had known from way back then, which is why her birthday gift to him was a real sky for him to fly in. And even then what kind of person asks someone to run away from their home with them for some obscure reason even though the person's best friend just died a the hands of the very same kind creature that someone wants them to run away with?

Quote:
Seriously, Kawamori surely is a troll when it comes to hinting (no offense to any fans) at either couple, ne?
I think between the promotional material and the actual events of the series, Kawamori did in fact hint at the ultimate ending. A lot of your reasons for disliking the ultimate end to the love triangle is just that you didn't like it. Which is just proving my point about ignoring logic.

Also your timeline is skewed there are two versions of the first episode which aired a year before the actual broadcast of the series. It was first from the Deculture edition that Ranka became popular and was known nicknamed "Nyan Nyan"

Last edited by wisteria233; 2011-02-28 at 10:10.
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Old 2011-02-28, 09:54   Link #858
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I'll make this short:


Srsly.
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Old 2011-02-28, 10:12   Link #859
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If this is what goes as canon on that other board, it surely should be enough for a "Macross Frontier: The alternate history" booklet.
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Old 2011-02-28, 10:14   Link #860
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Oh maggie...if you could only see what I cannot unsee...
I think I lost some brain cells. @_@

Some of them are even saying the movies are not canon due to how vastly different it is compared to the series.
Or that the ending we got in the movie was out of 'fan pressure' and that the real ending will prolly appear in the DVD/BD.
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