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Old 2009-01-24, 09:30   Link #101
Swampstorm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
We are talking about the same episode starting with his conversation with Leon and Bilrer until the scene on the deck where he was talking with Kuran.

As you say it's in the context that he must wage to kill her if the situation forces him to do so. But it does not say that he does not care for her anymore or put his protective instincts for her to the bottom.
Yes, that's the same scene as the one that I brought up. But if you'll recall, the point raised by magnuskn wasn't that Alto didn't care for Ranka or that he put his protective instincts for her at the bottom, but rather that protecting her wasn't his top priority.

As such, your idea doesn't seem to be at odds with magnuskn's. It's true that Alto still cares for Ranka, and would bring her back if it's in his power to do so. But his priorities have changed, and he's found something that he truly wants to protect.

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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
And also there is no need for him to leave Frontier in order to protect her this is something you do out of your heart with no matter of physical distance. If he was not able to see this himself, than we can be glad that Sheryl asks him to save her even through their (friendly) rivalry.
I think this touches on musouka's point. It's not simply an issue of Alto being content to stay behind on Frontier while she's in danger, but rather that he's so nonchalant about the whole affair. But we can discuss this point further if you'd like, as it's one that I haven't considered fully myself.
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Old 2009-01-24, 15:26   Link #102
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
We are talking about the same episode starting with his conversation with Leon and Bilrer until the scene on the deck where he was talking with Kuran.

As you say it's in the context that he must wage to kill her if the situation forces him to do so. But it does not say that he does not care for her anymore or put his protective instincts for her to the bottom.

And also there is no need for him to leave Frontier in order to protect her this is something you do out of your heart with no matter of physical distance. If he was not able to see this himself, than we can be glad that Sheryl asks him to save her even through their (friendly) rivalry.
He just came off a conversation in which it was told to him by Leon and Bilrer that Ranka would be used by the Vajra to, uh, well, do bad stuff ( the sub doesnīt explain too well what nefarious thing the Vajra are supposed to do with her help ). So it is not strange at all that he was thinking about Ranka and arrived at the conclusion that heīd be willing to kill her, if that was what it would take to save Frontier.

I donīt even know if we are on the same page here anymore, because what I am saying is that Alto at this point does not care romantically about Ranka anymore ( which was only happening, a little, in the episode 12 - 17 window, anyway ), but that he still cares about her as a friend who he wants to protect. Only that his priorities have changed to such an extent by that point, that he is willing to kill her, if necessary. And also is completely comfortable staying on Frontier with Sheryl, instead of running off with SMS.

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
The discussion is a bit pointless because:
-Ranka wins in the sense of classic shonen relationship
-Sheryl wins in the sense of common world(Alto and Sheryl's actions to each other were more direct and it indicates more that they're a couple in public)
-Alto is a professional actor who can easily act even "love". He always does what his enviroment wants from him(almost).

So the whole ground is equal somewhat because we totaly uncertain about Alto's feelings...maybe a bit biased to Sheryl because of the later episodes, but it's not so that it's certainly decided.
Maybe we can switch from the main romance part...
Uh, no?

All this talk about Alto being so much an actor that he will simply act his feelings is simply a story spun by Yasaburo to Alto, so that he can get him back to acting.

Yeah, Alto is a bit difficult to read at times, and I guess that comes from his acting background. But anyone who thinks that he is acting during, say, his confrontation with Sheryl about her sickness is deluding himself something fierce.

And, I am sorry, but to assume that Alto is simply faking his concerns, his promises of loyalty and his love... that is assuming the absolutely worst of him, which I do not think he deserves. Only because Yasaburo says it, doesnīt make it true. Not to mention that Mr. Squinty Eyes is projecting quite fiercely onto Alto, IMO.

BTW, I donīt know if I simply saw better shonen shows than you, but in the ones I saw the main character didnīt always end up with the moe-blob who needs constant protecting.
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Old 2009-01-24, 16:46   Link #103
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Who said always? I said typical...
Common recipe:character: moe and nice but almost defenseless.
plot to love: the main character have a crush on her and always ends upsaving her, and every time they close he starts to act like an idiot(gets emberassed, clumsy...)
So in one sentence: Typical Knight-Princess relation with a growing up teenager as the "knight".

Alto's possible "acting of love" actions confused me...but if he's not acting his emotions even a little then i think it'ss a clear win for Sheryl because then after the kissing scene at ep 24 he is prepared to confess her(that's why i am a bit pissed of at the first time i seen the triangle ending).
Funny but Alto's most powerfull "love indications" are played very close to each other:
Ranka: at the end of episode 23...his little hesitation saying to kill her was the greatest sign of his love...
Sheryl: the kiss scene at the middle of episode 24. It seems like he is willing too and the stoped confession-like scene after that.

As i said am a Sheryl fan and a Sheryl x Alto supporter so it's natural that i'm a bit biased to her but i think i am not so subjective at all...
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Old 2009-01-24, 17:21   Link #104
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Who said always? I said typical...
Common recipe:character: moe and nice but almost defenseless.
plot to love: the main character have a crush on her and always ends upsaving her, and every time they close he starts to act like an idiot(gets emberassed, clumsy...)
So in one sentence: Typical Knight-Princess relation with a growing up teenager as the "knight".
Which... didnīt happen at all in Macross Frontier. Yeah, we got the moe-blob, but neither does the main character have a crush ( most of the time ) on her nor does he start to act like an idiot around her. Itīs much rather the reverse.

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Alto's possible "acting of love" actions confused me...but if he's not acting his emotions even a little then i think it'ss a clear win for Sheryl because then after the kissing scene at ep 24 he is prepared to confess her(that's why i am a bit pissed of at the first time i seen the triangle ending).
Funny but Alto's most powerfull "love indications" are played very close to each other:
Ranka: at the end of episode 23...his little hesitation saying to kill her was the greatest sign of his love...
Sheryl: the kiss scene at the middle of episode 24. It seems like he is willing too and the stoped confession-like scene after that.

As i said am a Sheryl fan and a Sheryl x Alto supporter so it's natural that i'm a bit biased to her but i think i am not so subjective at all...
How exactly was his hesitation a love sign? Well, if one is inclined to believe that he luuuurves Ranka, I guess it counts, not to mention that sentence by Klan afterwards ( which was quite the topic of discussion here here... the concensus was that it doesnīt translate as easy as "Is this your love?" ).

As someone who very much believes that Alto is not in love with Ranka, I see it as the natural hesitation one would display when talking about how one maybe would have to kill a very near friend.
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Old 2009-01-24, 17:45   Link #105
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
How exactly was his hesitation a love sign? Well, if one is inclined to believe that he luuuurves Ranka, I guess it counts, not to mention that sentence by Klan afterwards ( which was quite the topic of discussion here here... the concensus was that it doesnīt translate as easy as "Is this your love?" ).

As someone who very much believes that Alto is not in love with Ranka, I see it as the natural hesitation one would display when talking about how one maybe would have to kill a very near friend.
Just a little bit suggestion/correction, I don't think we ever have concensus on Klan's quote lol...I have already suggested multiple times that Klan's quote "is that your love" only works on Alto and Ranka because of their deep relationship, and of course, in my view, that "love" from the quote "is that your love" of course includes the love that Alto has towards Ranka...so I don't very much agree that "doesn't translate as easy as ""is this your love"" " from your statement..and hence we don't have "concensus" on that quote

That's it lol, I don't want to interfere with your discussion, but I just feel I have to say something when I look at the word "concensus" and just to clear things up...
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Old 2009-01-24, 18:42   Link #106
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Yeah, sorry, I should have been more clear. Sheryl fans had a concensus.
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Old 2009-01-24, 19:07   Link #107
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Although Klan's line has the word "love" in it, it comes in the context of a discussion where Alto has just told her that he's willing to kill Ranka for the sake of Frontier. In addition, the tone of the line itself is sorrowful. So the purpose of the line isn't to simply declare "You love Ranka!" (which could only happen in a much happier context) but rather to comment on the state of affairs between the two characters.

There are a couple of directions in which you can take this. One, as was suggested earlier, is that Alto's decision to kill Ranka indicates that he loves her and wishes to protect her honor. The problem with this line of reasoning is that Alto never specifically brings up the issue of honor in the conversation, and he doesn't set out with the specific intention of killing Ranka - he'll only do it if she's a threat to Frontier. Furthermore, you could argue that unless Alto was acting to fulfill Ranka's ideals (i.e. that Ranka would sooner die than allow herself to side with the enemy), then his actions are motivated by his own system of values, rather than out of love for her.

The second possibility, which seems more likely to me, is that Klan's point is more along the lines of "Is this what's left of your love?" or "Is this what your love has become?" This ties in with how Alto's relationship with Ranka fell apart in episode twenty-one. While their relationship seemed to have promise for a while, they both ended up misleading each other. Alto believed that so long as he was with Ranka, he would have a genuine reason to pilot. Ranka, on the other hand, believed that as long as she helped Frontier fight against the Vajra, she would earn Alto's love.

Their relationship finally broke down when Ranka realized that Alto only saw her as a weapon. When she finally left to be true to herself and her beliefs, Alto learned to do the same: he found something that he genuinely wanted to protect. What Klan is lamenting here is the series of mistakes that caused the two to take opposite paths, which, while painful, lead them each towards maturation.
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Old 2009-01-24, 19:13   Link #108
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Old 2009-01-24, 21:00   Link #109
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Just because he is supposedly willing to kill her doesn't mean he doesn't care for her. It simply means he has certain beliefs that he is holding above her. At this time she has fled Frontier with a vajra. If she somehow becomes an enemy of Frontier, he will kill her because he must protect Frontier. That takes precedence over Ranka. But whether he'd actually go through with it is another story completely...

I view it has a bit similar to Kallen's feelings toward Lelouch in Code Geass at the end of the series. She clearly loves him, but under the circumstances she just can't side with him and has to fight him. Her beliefs and need to protect Japan take precedence over any love she has for Lelouch. So if she must kill him, she will. Plus she only knows one side of the story and doesn't know the truth behind his actions unfortunately. Though I suppose one big difference between this situation and the one with Alto/Ranka is that if Kallen knew the truth she would have followed Lelouch. With Alto, he knows what Ranka wants to do...he just can't accept it because his hatred of the vajra is too great. Though for both sides it basically comes down to not having enough information.

Anyway, I'm not saying Alto loves Ranka. Personally, I don't think he knows who the hell he is in love with. He's too indecisive on that front. But I have no doubt he does care about Ranka a lot. Just like he cares very much for Sheryl as well.

Hahaha....this is the one and only time I will ever compare Ranka and Lelouch.

Oh and please don't argue with me on the Kallen loves Lulu bit. It's a fact. Proven in the anime, in the official guidebook, her poems from complete best, her songs, Taniguchi, etc. Now Lelouch loving her back is a different story. I don't think he liked anyone romantically...
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Old 2009-01-24, 21:49   Link #110
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
All this talk about Alto being so much an actor that he will simply act his feelings is simply a story spun by Yasaburo to Alto, so that he can get him back to acting.
I think more that Yasaburo asks Alto just to simply come home. Not back to take place of his father heir but more to come back as a son who has lost his sight due to the incidences what happened. The whole scene was for Alto to search his conscience. I also think that Yasaburo wants to say that no matter what you are (Soldier, Actor, Hero, Lover) you always have to take face the truth and take the consequences instead of running away as he did in the past.

Anyway. Regarding the other stuff I think we are on our best way to view what was and what is left between Alto and Ranka. And I still hope for a romantic harem triangle at the end of the movies.
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Old 2009-01-24, 22:49   Link #111
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Hey I agree with your Kallen/Alto analogy. Even I will think it's unrealistic if Alto didn't stick to his belief given with how little he knew.

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Oh and please don't argue with me on the Kallen loves Lulu bit. It's a fact. Proven in the anime, in the official guidebook, her poems from complete best, her songs, Taniguchi, etc. Now Lelouch loving her back is a different story. I don't think he liked anyone romantically...
Besides his sisters, yes he did. Lelouch loved C.C. It was mutual. XD
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Old 2009-01-24, 23:39   Link #112
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@zalem
Hey I agree with your Kallen/Alto analogy. Even I will think it's unrealistic if Alto didn't stick to his belief given with how little he knew.
That's true. Ranka didn't really attempt to explain anything to him in detail. She didn't tell him about that time with the Vajra queen and the "message" they gave her. She kept it all to herself. Though given how stubborn Alto is I doubt that would have changed his mind either. With Michael dead only a little while ago I suppose one can't blame him.

Quote:
Besides his sisters, yes he did. Lelouch loved C.C. It was mutual. XD
Lulu didn't love anyone besides Nunnally (and that was not romantic). There is absolutely no evidence of him having romantic feelings towards anyone in the anime or official materials. He cared a lot about Shirley, C.C. and Kallen, but I see no romance with any of them.
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Old 2009-01-25, 03:34   Link #113
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Which... didnīt happen at all in Macross Frontier. Yeah, we got the moe-blob, but neither does the main character have a crush ( most of the time ) on her nor does he start to act like an idiot around her. Itīs much rather the reverse.
...
How exactly was his hesitation a love sign? Well, if one is inclined to believe that he luuuurves Ranka, I guess it counts, not to mention that sentence by Klan afterwards ( which was quite the topic of discussion here here... the concensus was that it doesnīt translate as easy as "Is this your love?" ).

As someone who very much believes that Alto is not in love with Ranka, I see it as the natural hesitation one would display when talking about how one maybe would have to kill a very near friend.
Not exactly but some of the signs are here: Always rushing to protect/save Ranka(exept at "Ranka's betrayal", blushing and emberassment before the kiss scene in film, the suggested "burning eyes" scene and the accidental hugging scene(which ends up in sudden blushing) at ep 13. In the most shonen series that's all the romance we got(perhaps that tendency slowly changed over time so even the echi-comedies without any special romance have more direct romance scenes nowadays)

Perhaps the "Ranka fans"(people on the side of Alto x Ranka romance) main point that Sheryl and Alto have nearly nothing of that kind of scenes.
But that's nearly equal to turn a blind eye on Sheryl and Alto's scenes. They formed a relationship far stronger and closer...that's why there's no sudden rejection(like immediately after the Alto and Ranka's "hugging scene"), nor blushing scenes. There's no use to reject that.
And true I was wrong...Alto's hesitation cannot be considered a sign of love, because even if Michel or Luka were in Ranka's shoes he would said that the same way...and we consider that Alto nowhere near to Bisexual(even tough that he played female roles and because it everyone calls him princess). Perhaps there's the always up phsychological question: can be true friendship beetween a man and woman without it turns out to love if the bond becomes stronger and stronger.
If not that then the strongest "love scene" is where he declares that he returns with Ranka no matter what and the worriing like crazy after Ranka kidnaped.

Maybe that post is a bit more biassed to Sheryl than my other posts but my opinions and beliefs always changing so it's not surprising if i write down a post with the complete opposite opinion next day.
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Old 2009-01-25, 04:28   Link #114
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That's true. Ranka didn't really attempt to explain anything to him in detail. She didn't tell him about that time with the Vajra queen and the "message" they gave her. She kept it all to herself. Though given how stubborn Alto is I doubt that would have changed his mind either. With Michael dead only a little while ago I suppose one can't blame him.
Yeah, well... if Ranka would have told him or anyone else directly after episode 14 what happened with the Vajra queen, then much could have gone in other directions. Instead she... never told anybody.

I guess that could again be this selective amnesia, but it was never made clear.

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Not exactly but some of the signs are here: Always rushing to protect/save Ranka(exept at "Ranka's betrayal", blushing and emberassment before the kiss scene in film, the suggested "burning eyes" scene and the accidental hugging scene(which ends up in sudden blushing) at ep 13. In the most shonen series that's all the romance we got(perhaps that tendency slowly changed over time so even the echi-comedies without any special romance have more direct romance scenes nowadays)
Okay, maybe I was wrong here, because the way I meant Shonen shows, it was more in the direction of Vision of Escaflowne, while what you seem to mean is things like Bleach.

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Perhaps the "Ranka fans"(people on the side of Alto x Ranka romance) main point that Sheryl and Alto have nearly nothing of that kind of scenes.
But that's nearly equal to turn a blind eye on Sheryl and Alto's scenes. They formed a relationship far stronger and closer...that's why there's no sudden rejection(like immediately after the Alto and Ranka's "hugging scene"), nor blushing scenes. There's no use to reject that.
Pretty much what the majority here thinks, yeah.

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And true I was wrong...Alto's hesitation cannot be considered a sign of love, because even if Michel or Luka were in Ranka's shoes he would said that the same way...and we consider that Alto nowhere near to Bisexual(even tough that he played female roles and because it everyone calls him princess). Perhaps there's the always up phsychological question: can be true friendship beetween a man and woman without it turns out to love if the bond becomes stronger and stronger.
If not that then the strongest "love scene" is where he declares that he returns with Ranka no matter what and the worriing like crazy after Ranka kidnaped.
Which happened in that window of episode 12 - 17, which is when he showed some romantic inclinations towards Ranka. Episode 10 is iffy, because you can explain his uneasiness towards kissing her away, with the fact that at this point he considers her a good friend.

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Maybe that post is a bit more biassed to Sheryl than my other posts but my opinions and beliefs always changing so it's not surprising if i write down a post with the complete opposite opinion next day.
You can stop with the declarations that your posts are a bit too Sheryl-centric. Most the people on this board are very pro-Sheryl X Alto, so itīs not as if youīd upset us.
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Old 2009-01-26, 19:30   Link #115
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I think we should switch to other discussions...
For example:
Michael x Klan:
What do you think? He loved her from the begining just he don't want to admit to others or just after the kiss scene he realised his love? Klan's feelings almost absolute, so it's not a discussion.
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Old 2009-01-26, 19:46   Link #116
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I think we should switch to other discussions...
For example:
Michael x Klan:
What do you think? He loved her from the begining just he don't want to admit to others or just after the kiss scene he realised his love? Klan's feelings almost absolute, so it's not a discussion.
I think it was explained quite well in the series... Michael was a.) afraid of getting serious, because he could die at any time and b.) genuinely in love with Klan, although he didnīt want to admit it to himself.

I think the creators took the easy way out by killing him. Seeing the two of them struggle with the things above and the other biological problem in their relationship would have been much more interesting.
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Old 2009-01-26, 22:59   Link #117
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I can understand Michel with his commitment issues. Getting serious IS scary based on my and other people's experiences. For Michel, it's harder, especially considering the fact that the person he loves looks like a child when micronized. If they'd go on a date, people will either think: A.) A brother-sister relationship or B.) Michel is one sick dude.

XD
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Old 2009-01-27, 08:28   Link #118
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I guess the creators really don't want to go explore the MichelxKlan relationship because of those biological difficulties. Could anyone here give some possible scenarios of what could have been? For the challenge, consider that there wasn't a "cure" for Klan's micronized form. I was thinking their relationship might be accepted in other colonies, especially those still building up its population.
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Old 2009-01-27, 08:37   Link #119
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Question Michael & Klan

Was there any in-series canon why he could not macronize for her?
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Old 2009-01-27, 08:40   Link #120
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Hmm...remembering how Max macronized with his lover in DYRL, that strikes a thought.
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