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Old 2011-04-19, 12:20   Link #1181
wisteria233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Let's move this to the romance discussion but, I'll put this out there: Ranka reacts more like a housewife when she's around Alto. Sheryl, however, in the series, showed that she was more concerned about other things going on than absorbing her last moments with him. Whilst Ranka cherishes everything and then-some. She DOES bake cookies for him whilst Sheryl has to stand aside in the end why HE cooks.
Misogyny aside (seriously this is the twenty-first century women aren't bound to the kitchen like some 1950's house wife, plus the series takes place far into the future and we've never seen anyone of the character bring this up before).

The reason why Sheryl stepped aside was because she cut her finger, and as someone who cooks for her family regularly I can tell you that its very common. Not only that but she was sick, with a disease that could be transferred by bodily fluids which is why Alto had her step to the side. Plus Sheryl was shown to bring Alto his lunch so again your comment makes no sense. Even though it also nothing to do with romance.

Also those cookies that Ranka made were salty, and she got the recipe from Nanase. Wow your memory is bad.

You really love to take liberties with your shipper goggles don't you.
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Old 2011-04-19, 13:29   Link #1182
Thess
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
How about actual stuff which happened in the show or movies?
You mean how Ranka blushes and flusters around Sheryl and how Sheryl thinks Ranka is cute and she "likes cute things" (in her blog?). Or how they actually saved each others life when Alto was impotent to do anything? Were it be for Alto, both of them would have ended up dead at the end of the tv series.

The concert with that song is on the credits of the second movie (which is a "hint" of the characters post movie), does it not. Both sound very happy and Alto doesn't seem to be around at all.

I heard second movie was mean to be more musical-ish or something. Unless I misremember.

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Originally Posted by ShinyBunny View Post
I also just fail to see how being overly comfortable with someone is a great thing in a love triangle. That usually leads to friend zoning, which is what happened.
Being comfortable should happen once they are in a pseudo relationship, otherwise, yes... it's leading to friendzone. That saying, I think (movie wise) Ranka and Sheryl are the quintessential Betty and Veronica, more than the TV series (where the roles are flipped at one point).
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Old 2011-04-19, 13:35   Link #1183
Tak
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What LoveMeKags need to really realize is that, as men, why the hell should we confine ourselves to that of a housewife? Why is that quality so-much better?

I like Sheryl because she is fun to be with, and intellectually challenging. Moreover, she does not submit herself to inconveniences just to please her man.

Geez. How dare any women be free-spirited, independent and fall in love!? God forbid!

- Tak
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Old 2011-04-19, 13:38   Link #1184
Thess
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What LoveMeKags need to really realize is that, as a guy, why the hell should we confine ourselves to that of a housewife? Why is that quality so-much better?
Yeah. And Alto's far from a chauvinist (like Hikaru acted...one of the reasons I really disliked Hikaru in my re-watch).
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Old 2011-04-19, 17:17   Link #1185
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
You mean how Ranka blushes and flusters around Sheryl and how Sheryl thinks Ranka is cute and she "likes cute things" (in her blog?). Or how they actually saved each others life when Alto was impotent to do anything? Were it be for Alto, both of them would have ended up dead at the end of the tv series.
When does Ranka blush and fluster around Sheryl in a way which seems in any form romantic? Also, I didn't know that Ranka was a "thing". And if you take "saving each others life" as a standard for having a hidden romance, I guess Alto and Ranka really were a couple all along.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
The concert with that song is on the credits of the second movie (which is a "hint" of the characters post movie), does it not. Both sound very happy and Alto doesn't seem to be around at all.
Not supported by the story, therefore irrelevant.
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Old 2011-04-19, 19:48   Link #1186
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
When does Ranka blush and fluster around Sheryl in a way which seems in any form romantic? Also, I didn't know that Ranka was a "thing".
Have you forgotten the first movie already and the first episodes? Ranka daydreams about the Sheryl concert with flushed cheeks while she stares at her poster, blushes bright red when Sheryl kisses Sheryl (which other audience members don't seem to do), when she meets Sheryl in "incognito" she's blushing upon realization. Of course, Sheryl's her idol to emulate too.

Kind of how Alto was Sheryl's in the movieverse from what I'm hearing of the spoilers..

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
And if you take "saving each others life" as a standard for having a hidden romance, I guess Alto and Ranka really were a couple all along.
Unlike Alto and Ranka, Ranka and Sheryl share a "perfect understanding" of each others. Which was what the first pair lacked to have a lasting relationship. That's why I like Sheryl's and Ranka's relationship the best, the idea of platonic or romantic in general.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Not supported by the story, therefore irrelevant.
You know what else isn't supported by the story? Alto saying "I love you" in present tense to Sheryl.

He was cut off, before he could finish- He could have tried to say "I loved you." :P
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Last edited by Thess; 2011-04-19 at 19:59.
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Old 2011-04-19, 20:55   Link #1187
karice67
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
You know what else isn't supported by the story? Alto saying "I love you" in present tense to Sheryl.

He was cut off, before he could finish- He could have tried to say "I loved you." :P
Or perhaps "I love you NOT!"

Can't wait for Kamiya et al to turn on Nakamura about this ^^
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Old 2011-04-19, 21:34   Link #1188
Darthtabby
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
What LoveMeKags need to really realize is that, as men, why the hell should we confine ourselves to that of a housewife? Why is that quality so-much better?

I like Sheryl because she is fun to be with, and intellectually challenging. Moreover, she does not submit herself to inconveniences just to please her man.
I'm reminded how I once had difficulty getting someone to understand why I wouldn't be able to stand living with someone like Belldandy from Ah! My Goddess. Granted my feeling that I wouldn't be able to stand being doted on like that was partly because I sometimes like to be left alone, but still... who wants to live with someone who never objects to anything? I certainly don't want to be nagged but I'm not sure I would like a relationship with a partner who always just went along with whatever I said and never voiced any complaints.

I like Alto and Sheryl's relationship because I feel like the two of them are equals in their relationship, or at least relatively equal. I think that's a very good thing for the two of them.

I'm not sure I'd say that Sheryl never inconvenienced herself for Alto, she put a lot of effort into trying to learn to fly. But I think that's a good thing as it shows that she understands what's important to him and it gives the two something they can share together.
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Old 2011-04-19, 22:47   Link #1189
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post

I'm not sure I'd say that Sheryl never inconvenienced herself for Alto, she put a lot of effort into trying to learn to fly. But I think that's a good thing as it shows that she understands what's important to him and it gives the two something they can share together.
I wouldn't say that Sheryl only wanted to learn how to fly to get close to Alto after all that episode was before she realized that she liked him. I think her interest in flying started out as her just trying to prove herself, and turned into general interest after actually experiencing it.
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Old 2011-04-19, 23:32   Link #1190
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Or perhaps "I love you NOT!"

Can't wait for Kamiya et al to turn on Nakamura about this ^^
Oh yeah!

I do savor that the whole kickstart of Alto/Sheryl in the movies is precisely what bonds Ranka and Sheryl together: inspiring star to emulate and ignite your dream.

This is nothing bad for Alto/Sheryl, actually, makes it even more endearing in my book. Of course, I still prefer Sheryl/Ranka, but it's just my preference.
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Old 2011-04-20, 00:05   Link #1191
LoveMeKags
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Originally Posted by ShinyBunny View Post
Yeah, you are taking some liberties there. I just rewatched that scene and that's not even close to what happened. He smiles proudly at her and she is mostly in shock, but there is no indication that either one are expecting a kiss. It's not in Alto's character to boldly kiss someone in the middle of a store. He doesn't lean forward or even change his expression. When he sees Sheryl he tries to explain things. It was a nice moment, but romantic? Not really. It's pretty much devoid of romantic chemistry. It's great Ranka was proactive in talking to Alto, which is better than the series, but it didn't show what you are suggesting.

And call me crazy, but I never viewed the train scene as a great romantic moment fror Alto and Ranka. The majority of it was him talking about his feelings for Sheryl and how he felt obviously inferior to her in a lot of ways, which brought out some issues from his childhood. Ranka encourages him and helps him like any friend would. If it had been a moment about the two of them and not about someone else I might have seen it as romantic. Possibly. It was an important scene because it helped cement their bond and friendship and the chance of something more the next movie.

I also just fail to see how being overly comfortable with someone is a great thing in a love triangle. That usually leads to friend zoning, which is what happened.
Hm, I will agree on the first paragraph. I just rewatched it. Maybe it was when he pulls away at seeing Sheryl's poster appear that had me thinking of the dip. I hadn't replayed the scene since my previous amv due to other things being more important. So I will say I was in the wrong there. To me, it is kinda romantic because he is saying he likes her voice (and considering the fact everyone here keeps saying Alto never listens to her songs, THAT'S romantic). To me, once again, him trying to explain like he was reminds me of making an excuse to his girlfriend and trying not to say he was cheating. His face is just guilty all over as he starts before she stops him.

I viewed it as romantic due to the fact Ranka says she will always see him for him. This is a very romantic thing to say to any person, especially to Alto, who has gender issues. Alto does not talking about his FEELINGS for Sheryl but his impression of her (as Ranka asks this of him). It doesn't bring up memories of his childhood, Ranka asks how he relates to Sheryl, THAT brings up the memories. Yes, she encourages him, from HIS point of view, but like I said, the moment she says "No matter what time, no matter when, Alto-kun is Alto-kun" that was a very romantic line, even for her.

As for someone else being in that moment: I don't think that Ranka really understands Alto's interest IN Sheryl, which is why she asks his impression of her. You know, Alto could've outright said that he found her attractive or wanted to know her more (as in date her) but he instead talks about her profession. And so, Ranka understands that Alto doesn't see Sheryl as a romantic interest yet, making the woman seem less like a rival in love and more like a friend. Meanwhile, she feels like Alto is separated from her by everything going on (hence her words "You're here yet you seem so far away"). I think, in the long run, Ranka is more confused by her love for Alto than she is about what Alto's feelings are. Ranka has never experienced a love quite like what she feels for Alto and doesn't know how to express it until she finds the right words (as expressed in movie 2).

Hm, then that would make Misa and Hikaru a bad match. Hikaru was more comfortable with Misa after she stopped being such a war person, meanwhile he was pestered at by Minmei ALL THE TIME, just like Sheryl with Alto (more in the tv verse than the movie verse). Plus, if you look at the original SDF-1, Hikaru always had to be pushed towards Misa, not Minmei (he'd fly to her in a heartbeat before he fell for Misa) before he stopped being lovestruck by a dream and looked to Misa for romance. So, if you really compare those two love triangles, if we're going to make a 25th anniversary of SDF-1 (I would say) then Alto would've ended up with Ranka in the end, because he was more comfortable with her. And to let you know, the pestering one - Minmei - was friendzoned.
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Old 2011-04-20, 00:30   Link #1192
Tak
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
You took that the wrong way...
No, I didn't.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
First of all, I meant in a private life (as in after marriage, which Macross rarely shows) and not during the war and issues, not even on a daily basis, but when needed or offered: Sheryl would not be a good housewife.
So?

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
This leaves everything to Alto - whom, might I mention, is still a warrior in a war. If he is killed, she is left with this duty, and how will she get by when her career has fallen apart and she has no money? She'll have to rely on someone else. The fact she doesn't ASK to learn how to cook makes her take a step back from independence. She brings Alto lunch that she BOUGHT.
Urm, did you miss episode 23, when both Sheryl and Alto were trying to cook together?

And what of her career? She wasn't broke poor when her career took a dip. In fact, she was richer than Alto and still financially capable of living a comfortable life from that point on.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Ranka, however, has learned from working at the Nyan Nyan cafe (another reason I love that she starts at the bottom) and her brother. She also aspires to give him food often despite what you see (the Nyan Nyan tuna buns, the cookies SHE baked). Just because the recipe came from her friend does not change the fact that she BAKED them and filled them with that special ingredient: love. Besides, why are they shaped like planes? Because Ranka made them like that but Nanase gave her the directions for the batter.
Where did you get the idea that Ranka learned how to cook from Nyan Nyan? Just because she delivered buns to Alto?

In fact, Ranka never learned how to cook working at Nyan Nyan. She was nothing more than an all-purpose cleaning/delivery girl. When she baked those cookies for Alto, it was actually her very first time trying to make food (a duty that had always been assumed by Ozma). Did you actually see her cook anything else than bake those cookies that even she complained was too bitter?

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
"if you wanna keep your man happy, keep him full."
Do I really need to mention that Alto is a superior cook to Ranka and he can do a much better job at doing just that?

Yeah, Alto pulls off the role of housewife very well, why does he need Ranka as housewife #2?


Give me a break, what era do you live in that you must confine women to the role of housewife? And really, you need to realize that while Ranka's intentions were good, and in your point of view, she might be a better candidate as a love interest for Alto, except your logic is irrelevant, because there is a major flaw in there: Alto loved Sheryl.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Hikaru was more comfortable with Misa after she stopped being such a war person
Except Misa never stopped being such a war person. At the end, she became the captain of the first Megaroad colonial fleet, with her very own Super Dimension Fortress.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2011-04-20 at 00:41.
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Old 2011-04-20, 00:34   Link #1193
karice67
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Oh yeah!

I do savor that the whole kickstart of Alto/Sheryl in the movies is precisely what bonds Ranka and Sheryl together: inspiring star to emulate and ignite your dream.

This is nothing bad for Alto/Sheryl, actually, makes it even more endearing in my book. Of course, I still prefer Sheryl/Ranka, but it's just my preference.
Know what? The more this shipping debate drags on, the more I start to come round to your way of thinking...
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Old 2011-04-20, 00:38   Link #1194
Darthtabby
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I wouldn't say that Sheryl only wanted to learn how to fly to get close to Alto after all that episode was before she realized that she liked him. I think her interest in flying started out as her just trying to prove herself, and turned into general interest after actually experiencing it.
You're right, she hadn't really admitted to being in love with Alto at that point. Plus she was doing her publicity stunt for Galaxy and she wanted to have a bit of fun at school (though it's worth noting that she seems to single Alto out when she wants to have some fun at his school). I still wonder however if her interest in learning to fly might have something to do with Alto's love of flying. Granted it's a thread that sort of got dropped towards the end of the series as the focus shifted to other things.

I still like the idea that flying is a part of Alto's life that Sheryl wants to share in however. So hopefully she'll get back to it and at least get to the point where she isn't crashing into things. :lol:

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
That wasn't meant to sound rude, but you missed where Sheryl says she took classes for flying beforehand. This was BEFORE she met Alto. So, she doesn't put a lot of effort into flying for HIM.
I don't remember her taking flying lessons until Episode 8, well after she met Alto (albeit before she started openly admitting she liked him). If you have information indicating otherwise can you please indicate where you got it?
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Old 2011-04-20, 00:56   Link #1195
karice67
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
She moves in with Alto merely because she is ill and might need help when she nears death (understandable again, for it's better to have someone present than be alone and not able to reach a means of calling for help). But otherwise, she actually doesn't show that she IS capable of living off her own money.
I'm going to leave the interpretive debates for everyone else, but just a word of warning: be careful what you argue.

From 2059: Memories, Alto and Sheryl aren't living together in episode 23. It's Sheryl's apartment and Alto's just visiting to prepare and have dinner with her. Given that she's doing concerts for charity at this point, I dare say this indicates that she's perfectly capable of "living off her own money".
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Old 2011-04-20, 00:58   Link #1196
wisteria233
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Mostly, I was referring to her lack of happiness in his help, even. She just looks upset. And that just makes it seem so unromantic even though he offers to help her like a gentleman. I get that she's upset about her illness, but a dying person usually puts on a strong face no matter what and absorbs what memories she can. But Sheryl doesn't really do this. She sulks and falls into a pit of misery even though Alto tries to pull her out of it. That makes HIM upset.
Umm how does she look upset? In fact during the whole scene Sheryl looked quite happy, now if you said concentrated then yes I would agree with you. However that can be owned up to the fact that she is cooking a type of cuisine that she is unfamiliar with (she can't use chopsticks which would imply that she also doesn't know how to cook Japanese dishes). She also never fell into misery in that scene either. Really either your memory is failing you again, or you once again tied your goggles on too tight, you really need to loosen those, its not healthy. In fact she was happy that she was finally able to share a meal with someone just like she always wanted.

Quote:
I understood why she stood aside. But why did she cut her finger? Carelessness. I won't say that's her fault, as I still have a mental picture in my head of Alto in only an apron /drools/, but just gonna put that out there.
It is quite possible to pay attention and still cut yourself while cooking. Its normal.

Quote:
Even though they were salty and she got the recipe from her friend, did she bake them? Yes. Herself. That is what makes her homecooked meal more delicious, because it was made with the perfect ingredient to Alto: love.
If the cookies ended up salty then that means that Ranka botched the recipe. And no matter if a meal is home cooked or not a badly cooked meal still tastes terrible, no matter who makes it. Its not so much the meal that makes a difference or even who cooks it, its the person/people you share the meal with. On that note cooking with another person is much more rewarding than just cooking alone.

But yeah you really need to get into the 21st century.


Quote:
First of all, I meant in a private life (as in after marriage, which Macross rarely shows) and not during the war and issues, not even on a daily basis, but when needed or offered: Sheryl would not be a good housewife.
Again with the misogamy, seriously this is just sad coming from the same gender as me. I ask you as a fellow female, why does Alto need to marry the perfect housewife? Are you saying that everyman should only marry a girl who makes a good potential housewife and ignore the independent women who while not good at housework are still attractive both physically and mentally? There is such a thing as a stay at home dad you know.

Quote:
If memory serves me well, Sheryl admits that she doesn't know how to cook. Looking at her past, that isn't hard to imagine, as she grew up on the streets until Grace took her in and pretty much did everything for her.
She never said this in fact she said just the opposite, Sheryl's profile says that she can in fact cook. And Grace didn't do everything for her, when she was growing up. If Grace didn't give Sheryl much freedom growing up and did everything for her, then Sheryl wouldn't have been so independent throughout the series.

Quote:
This leaves everything to Alto - whom, might I mention, is still a warrior in a war. If he is killed, she is left with this duty, and how will she get by when her career has fallen apart and she has no money? She'll have to rely on someone else. The fact she doesn't ASK to learn how to cook makes her take a step back from independence. She brings Alto lunch that she BOUGHT with money, like Ranka's tuna buns from Nyan Nyan in Ep3.
Sheryl is rich enough to own a Black Vega credit card I think she can easily take care of someone, even if her career ends, she can still make money off of royalties. A singer's career never truly ends until they die, not only that but Sheryl is working on her piloting and if all else fails she can fall back on that. And I wouldn't say that Sheryl bought the meal after all she gave Alto, because that was never even implied. I also imagine Frontier has some form of insurance.

Quote:
Ranka, however, has learned from working at the Nyan Nyan cafe (another reason I love that she starts at the bottom) and her brother. She also aspires to give him food often despite what you see (the Nyan Nyan tuna buns, the cookies SHE baked). Just because the recipe came from her friend does not change the fact that she BAKED them and filled them with that special ingredient: love. Besides, why are they shaped like planes? Because Ranka made them like that but Nanase gave her the directions for the batter.
Waitresses don't make much money, and if Ranka wants a higher paying job then she's going to have to first get out those job applications. Alto she botched those cookies so once again your point is negated by the series itself.

Quote:
(Amazingly enough, this all reminds me of an episode of Reba where her mother said: "if you wanna keep your man happy, keep him full.")
And yet the reasons for high divorce rates are not because their wives couldn't cook, but money and sex.



Quote:
She took classes BEFORE she met Alto. I remember her mentioning it was part of when she was on Galaxy. Perhaps Kawamori (or Yoshino) foreshadowed the movie where Alto and Sheryl meet in childhood with that, for why would she want to fly otherwise?
You're remembering wrong. Sheryl in fact never says that she took piloting lessons before the start of the series, in either continuity. Alto and Sheryl only met once and from the summaries they weren't childhood friends either.
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Old 2011-04-20, 01:06   Link #1197
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To me, the whole "Alto is better in the kitchen than Sheryl" bit is a throwback to the domestic life of Max and Millia. Guess who's the blue haired pilot who's better at cooking?

Frankly, nowadays I find it tiring to follow this silly debate, but I find it insulting that a woman's legitimacy as a partner is being judged according to her cooking ability of all things, or lack thereof... and I'm a guy. She's not good housewife material? Because she chooses not to learn some domestic skill at the moment, she's no longer capable of independence? That's why she's not suitable? Seriously?

Living together is a "give and take" situation; it's also a two-way street. Out of the character flaws that have been used to justify one's shipping view, this one takes the cake.
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Old 2011-04-20, 01:48   Link #1198
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Oh yeah!

I do savor that the whole kickstart of Alto/Sheryl in the movies is precisely what bonds Ranka and Sheryl together: inspiring star to emulate and ignite your dream.

This is nothing bad for Alto/Sheryl, actually, makes it even more endearing in my book. Of course, I still prefer Sheryl/Ranka, but it's just my preference.
It would be nice if you needn't push it in every second post you make, though. It's getting a little bit annoying.
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Old 2011-04-20, 03:08   Link #1199
Thess
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It would be nice if you needn't push it in every second post you make, though. It's getting a little bit annoying.
Like Alto/Sheryl pushing?

Here is the thing, you don't need to reply when I mention it. It's getting a little bit annoying.
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Old 2011-04-20, 03:09   Link #1200
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Sigh... I really shouldn't post this because like other people here, I think this whole thing about being a good housewife is really silly and doesn't have anything to do with why Alto might like/love one or other girl, but ok.

Here's proof that Sheryl knows how to cook, from her official blog that someone translated in a thread here:
Quote:
Title: Boring Interview

She starts off by wondering why such things exist then goes off on a tangent about food. It turns out that she can cook and makes a comment about how the stereotype that pretty girls can't cook are only true about girls from years old anime. "Who the hell do you think I am? I'm Sheryl Nome!" It ends with her wondering what she was first trying to say.
December ??, 2058
And here's a bit of another one where Sheryl plans to make lunch for her friends at Mihoshi:
Quote:
To think that they will be able to partake of food made with my hands,
they may even cry due to overwhelming joy. Ufu.

Sheryl
June 23, 2059
So now, can we please stop this nonsense? it doesn't matter which girl cooks better or which makes Alto look taller and manlier (), those factors are almost meaningless when a guy decides to start a relationship with a girl.
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