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Old 2011-04-20, 21:25   Link #1241
Darthtabby
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Yeah, Sheryl and Alto are going to have some challenges ahead. They're both very committed to their respective dreams and they're going to need to make a serious effort to make sure they make time for each other. But I like to think that they'll find a way to make it work.

I'm actually not too fond of emphasizing Sheryl's rough childhood too much when talking about her character. The character herself doesn't seem to emphasize it very much after all. Plus it's not always the best tack to take in an argument -I saw someone use it in an attempt to defend against an accusation that Sheryl was a bitch, and it didn't really work very well (I think a better course would have been to argue that she isn't a bitch, not that she had an excuse).
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Old 2011-04-21, 01:37   Link #1242
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
Alto is more likely to make the choice, simply because with the war over, many soldiers will be seen as redundant, particularly when resources will go towards colonising their new planet. And Alto will have his sky regardless of his military status (in fact, I have a pet theory that Alto might even consider returning to Kabuki now when he has reconciled with his gender identity, got his sky, Frontier is safe and he is no longer intimidated by his father. Would be hilarious to see Yasaburo's face if Alto just shows up and is like "Yo! Dad said that you were doing Sukeroku, do you have Agemaki's script ready?").
Well the Frontier fleet folded to the Vajra planet almost blindly, along with the colonisation of the planet they will need ships and pilots to research the planetary system they're in, and the planet itself so there are still jobs that SMS would do.

And I really can't see Alto returning to kabuki, as you said Alto already has solved most of his problems but that doesn't mean he would stop being a pilot just because the war ended, throughout the series we see time and again that he really liked being a pilot (he even used Ranka as an excuse to be able to pilot a Valkyrie) and yeah Alto might have been running away from many things in the series but I don't think acting was one of those things, he just didn't want to be a professional actor.
We can see this more clearly when even his father Ranzo finally realizes that Alto really loves to fly and being a pilot in episode 24, when in the shelter he watched Alto taking off in his valkyrie and smiling he says "So that is your love"

Besides, for me Alto wouldn't be a true Macross protagonist if he doesn't like being a pilot
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Old 2011-04-21, 01:49   Link #1243
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Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter View Post
We can see this more clearly when even his father Ranzo finally realizes that Alto really loves to fly and being a pilot in episode 24, when in the shelter he watched Alto taking off in his valkyrie and smiling he says "So that is your dance"

Besides, for me Alto wouldn't be a true Macross protagonist if he doesn't like being a pilot
Corrected
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Old 2011-04-21, 02:09   Link #1244
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All I can say after having read all this is one, I can't turn my back for a second and all this chaos breaks loose?! And two, the arguments LoveMeKags puts forth is pretty much in the spirit of other pro-Alto/Ranka arguments I've seen elsewhere.

Basically, they tend to believe that because Alto was figuring out his gender identity, he needed a hyper-masculine life with a hyper-feminised version of Ranka; Ranka is shorter, more petite, soft spoken, unlikely to say no and so on, and in their second breath they call Sheryl a slut or whore.

The thing is, both girls are career oriented (though I could argue that Ranka might have started too soon; if Alto's paper plane hadn't been there, things could have gone very differently), and their time will be fully booked and with having not just saved Frontier, but Macross City and the other Macross fleets, they are now truly intergalactic songstresses of salvation, there's touring and everything else to consider.

If Alto wants a relationship with either of them, there'll be some massive compromises, because both will be busy.

Just because Ranka is shy around Alto when she does not know his feelings, doesn't mean that she'll become a meek housewife; just watch how she behaves with Ozma, Michael, Elmo and Bobby, that's how she behaves around the ones she likes and is comfortable with, her timidness around Alto is because she wants to make a good impression, and if they got together, and she grew secure with their relationship, she would likely to open up a lot more.

With Sheryl we have the opposite; the less she knows you, the harsher she is. Any celebrity knows that weaknesses multiply with fame, and remember how she was all angry with Alto seeing her boobs and later said that he could fantasise about them? Yes, it was teasing, but it was light teasing after she learned that Alto is awkward, but not a malicious pervert. We then watch as she gradually becomes "softer" (but never losing her edge) as she gets to know everyone better.

Oh, and anyone saying that Ranka's life was worse than Sheryl's is talking out of their ass; born on a colony were hive-minded cyborgs were mandatory (as most supplementary materials seems to say) to parents who are rebelling against said assimilation (wasn't there a manga which said this), have said parents killed/assimilated and left on the streets, picked up by a person who experiments on her, giving her a terminal disease, and then used, and then thrown aside like a used napkin by only parental figure, starts to die, watches as the universe crumbles around her, thinks that the man she loves is with her out of pity and thinks he instead loves her best friend (as I think Ranka would qualify as at that point of the series) and so on.

Unfortunately, the series did not go into greater detail about Sheryl's early life, and what growing up on Galaxy really was like, other than that it had slums and that she hated it (yet still wanted to save it, because it was, after all, home).

At least Ranka got to forget and build a new life until she was old enough to face her tragedies, though I do not want to minimise Ranka's troubles either, but there's a reason why Ranka is more trusting and innocent, and that's because she's been looked after constantly since her birth, first by her family, then by Ozma and SMS as a whole and then by Brera, and then by, well, everyone. The only time a truly malicious person got a hold of her was when Grace became her manager and when Grace captured her.

Oh, and here's the criteria of a good house-spouse:
Is willing to risk their career by putting it on hold to do the chores that no one will laud them for (seriously, there's even feminists who want house-spouses to get some kind of wage, since they are essentially working to enable their working spouses better job opportunities), and to do so by their own free will and be sure that it is what they want.

Likewise, they should consider the pros and cons carefully and discuss the rules at lengths with their partners so that none gets taken advantaged of or left in the wind.

But again, it should be a fully informed choice, yet, it is a choice I don't think either of the girls will consider for a long time.

Alto is more likely to make the choice, simply because with the war over, many soldiers will be seen as redundant, particularly when resources will go towards colonising their new planet. And Alto will have his sky regardless of his military status (in fact, I have a pet theory that Alto might even consider returning to Kabuki now when he has reconciled with his gender identity, got his sky, Frontier is safe and he is no longer intimidated by his father. Would be hilarious to see Yasaburo's face if Alto just shows up and is like "Yo! Dad said that you were doing Sukeroku, do you have Agemaki's script ready?").
That'd be hilarious, indeed. And "well said" to the rest, too.

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Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter View Post
Besides, for me Alto wouldn't be a true Macross protagonist if he doesn't like being a pilot
I don't think Irisiel said that he'd stop being a pilot. He'd probably be the private pilot for Sheryl and I can see him staying in SMS, but with less strict duties.

Or the next crisis erupts immediately, who knows?
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Old 2011-04-21, 03:24   Link #1245
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Corrected
Thanks, I blame the bad fansub I watched

I checked Thora's sub and yeah, they put something like that "So, this is the performance you chose", anyway the point is that Ranzo acknowledged that Alto wants to be a pilot.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I don't think Irisiel said that he'd stop being a pilot. He'd probably be the private pilot for Sheryl and I can see him staying in SMS, but with less strict duties.

Or the next crisis erupts immediately, who knows?
Well yeah, before the Vajra attacked Frontier Ozma, Mikhail and the others didn't have such strict duties, but my point is that I can't see Alto returning to be a kabuki actor.

Being an actor requires a great amount of time, so for me, returning to kabuki = Quit SMS, and since Alto stated in episode 1 that he wants to pilot valkyries and "not these toys (ex-gear)", or that he would not want to join the military or be a civilian pilot because predetermined courses are no fun, SMS really is the best option he could find.
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Old 2011-04-21, 04:10   Link #1246
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Well, if we're going to make a reading on gender identity issues in this anime, I might as well offer my 2 cents. I don't think that Alto has an issue with his gender at all.

Instead, there's something almost Freudian/Lacanian about Alto's inner conflict. A return to the kabuki stage is associated with the father, whereas flying and his love for the natural sky are associated with his longing for his mother.

I don't mean this in the Oedipal sense of course, but in a figurative one. Basically, Alto is being engendered as an individual in his attempt to resolve the two conflicts that represent the struggle between choosing his true self or becoming responsible in his society at large.
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Old 2011-04-21, 04:41   Link #1247
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
Well, if we're going to make a reading on gender identity issues in this anime, I might as well offer my 2 cents. I don't think that Alto has an issue with his gender at all.

Instead, there's something almost Freudian/Lacanian about Alto's inner conflict. A return to the kabuki stage is associated with the father, whereas flying and his love for the natural sky are associated with his longing for his mother.

I don't mean this in the Oedipal sense of course, but in a figurative one. Basically, Alto is being engendered as an individual in his attempt to resolve the two conflicts that represent the struggle between choosing his true self or becoming responsible in his society at large.
To change a very stupid subject because we all seemed to have started a war (no one take blame or it'll start again, trust me, we all stand up for our own selves... we're human), I have to agree with you.

Alto's love for the sky is due to his longing for his mother. She died when he was 11. From what I can tell, Alto has unresolved feelings for her passing too. Perhaps he even has unresolved issues with how his father handled it. He obviously misses that someone he can connect with (and in a lot of ways, he finds this in Sheryl and Ranka - two people whom he can relate to and talk with on an emotional level, more from Ranka though, considering he shares his past with her verbally).

If we look at Ranzou in Ep11, we see how relentless he is towards an actor obtaining his true dream, carrying out the Saotome name till his death - literally. I have to think that his father doesn't make it very easy to connect with him like his mother. We never actually see Alto hold a conversation with Ranzou directly but Yasaburou. And if you look closely, Alto objects to returning to Kabuki. What I gear this towards is his mother's death.

I'm going to assume that Ranzou did not show remorse (or not in front of Alto) after Miyo's death. Alto probably thinks his father only loves him when he does like his family wants: acts. And, in a deeper meaning, I think that STARTS his conflict with his father. I don't think until the end that he realizes his father loves him regardless of his career path but is too prideful to show it.

I would like to think that once Alto returns, they will patch up the family issues regardless if he returns to acting.

As for gender issues, he does have some. He often dislikes being confused for a female. It is shown frequently throughout the series. But what I think that stems from is the fact he wants to grow up and if people keep seeing him as something he's not, then how will he be a man? So, that might stem from his issues with his parents and past as well.
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Old 2011-04-21, 05:22   Link #1248
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter View Post
Well yeah, before the Vajra attacked Frontier Ozma, Mikhail and the others didn't have such strict duties, but my point is that I can't see Alto returning to be a kabuki actor.

Being an actor requires a great amount of time, so for me, returning to kabuki = Quit SMS, and since Alto stated in episode 1 that he wants to pilot valkyries and "not these toys (ex-gear)", or that he would not want to join the military or be a civilian pilot because predetermined courses are no fun, SMS really is the best option he could find.
I think Alto could fit some "special appearances" into his schedule without abandoning his true calling as a pilot. He already is an astounding and well-known actor by the time the series begins, after all.
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Old 2011-04-21, 06:22   Link #1249
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I actually thought about Alto returning to Kabuki because it is Macross, and Culture is their god (thus children are raised to value cultural occupations such as musical, acting and artistic occupations), and Alto clearly says and does things that shows that he misses being on stage (improvising during Sheryl's concert, his speech to Sheryl about never forgetting the experience), and now when there is an infinite sky at his disposal.

Plus, he wont be the same person returning; he wont be as affected by his father's comments and actions, and he would be secure enough to take teasing (witness how he doesn't even react to "Hime" any more). Basically, the stuff that drove him out of Kabuki has pretty much been dealt with on Alto's emotional and rational level, and his father has also come to accept his flying (remember in the beginning of the series, when Alto says that family gets in the way, while projecting his own issues at Ranka? Yeah, that's not a problem anymore).

Also, he's still legally a kid, even if he is a soldier, he is seventeen-eighteen at the end of the series, and would probably be considered a prime candidate when they cut down on the military and put several soldiers on inactive duty (easily put on active if something happens, but otherwise should lead normal lives). It might take a year or two for things to truly settle down, but it doesn't mean that he needs time off to get himself in order after having seen all that death, fought monsters and pretty much been through hell and back before his eighteenth birthday.

At the very least, I could see him become a professional stunt pilot (as opposed to incidental, as he was through the series) when he graduates school (which he also must return to).

So, he'll be an inactive member of SMS/NUNS who occasionally goes on missions, but otherwise stays home to finish his schooling/become a stunt flyer/go to therapy/acting/date his girlfriend/whatever you think he'll do in peaceful times.
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Old 2011-04-21, 06:24   Link #1250
kujoe
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
As for gender issues, he does have some. He often dislikes being confused for a female. It is shown frequently throughout the series. But what I think that stems from is the fact he wants to grow up and if people keep seeing him as something he's not, then how will he be a man? So, that might stem from his issues with his parents and past as well.
I don't think gender is really an issue with him. At most, it's just used for comedic effect, and not the root conflict of the character. If anything, the reason why people tease him as a 'princess' is precisely due to his history as a kabuki actor.

Perhaps it's not even such a strange coincidence that kabuki for Alto is literally (and figuratively) a return to a life on stage in front of an audience. It assumes that he has to play an acclaimed role—one that he is very good at—but one which he thinks has no place in his heart. It's the path of maturity and responsibility; it represents a choice of coming to terms with his place among others. In comparison, the memories of his mother fuel his longing to fly under the sky. It's where he feels the most comfortable, devoid of the trappings of expectations from others. It's a longing for a return to a simpler past—a more holistic sense of self.

The sky is who he is... and yet, the kabuki actor within is also a part of him. Unable to resolve the two, he runs away from home—away from the place where his mother had lived and died, and away from his father and the legacy of his name. And as he leaves, he takes with him the talisman he received from his mother, while continuing to display his long, beautiful hair.

In the end of the series, Alto remotely manuevres his VF-25 with some kabuki flair, thereby juxtaposing and reinterpreting kabuki acting with flying. "If you think not, you will blossom. Nor shall you blossom if you think. I'm just going to fly, and let my feelings guide me." Alto has finally chosen his stage—the fleet of Macross Frontier—and to stay and protect his home. Only now, piloting has also become the most important performance of his life.

Macross Frontier will always have its discussions on romance, but it's also a story of coming of age.
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Old 2011-04-21, 06:45   Link #1251
karice67
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This really doesn't belong in this thread, so I'll try to keep it short...
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
In the end of the series, Alto remotely manuevres his VF-25 with some kabuki flair, thereby juxtaposing and reinterpreting kabuki acting with flying. "If you think not, you will blossom. Nor shall you blossom if you think. I'm just going to fly, and let my feelings guide me." Alto has finally chosen his stage—the fleet of Macross Frontier—and to stay and protect his home. Only now, piloting has also become the most important performance of his life.

Macross Frontier will always have its discussions on romance, but it's also a story of coming of age.
I disagree with your interpretation of why Alto repeats his father's saying here. I'd argue that he uses it not because he chooses flying as his performance, but rather because it signifies him actually becoming someone who flies to protect his home. The whole point is that Alto's not playing a role anymore: instead, he just is what he is, if that makes sense.
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Old 2011-04-21, 07:04   Link #1252
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I didn't mean it in such a way to imply flying as a fictional role that he has to play out. It was more about resolving the two sides, by making flying *his own* performance. A role of his own choosing.

You're essentially rewording what I intended to say in a better way. I simply stuck too close to the metaphor.
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Old 2011-04-21, 11:03   Link #1253
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Also, he's still legally a kid, even if he is a soldier, he is seventeen-eighteen at the end of the series, and would probably be considered a prime candidate when they cut down on the military and put several soldiers on inactive duty (easily put on active if something happens, but otherwise should lead normal lives). It might take a year or two for things to truly settle down, but it doesn't mean that he needs time off to get himself in order after having seen all that death, fought monsters and pretty much been through hell and back before his eighteenth birthday.

At the very least, I could see him become a professional stunt pilot (as opposed to incidental, as he was through the series) when he graduates school (which he also must return to).

So, he'll be an inactive member of SMS/NUNS who occasionally goes on missions, but otherwise stays home to finish his schooling/become a stunt flyer/go to therapy/acting/date his girlfriend/whatever you think he'll do in peaceful times.
I don't think it so likely that he'll be put on inactive duty. After all, it was him who dealt the final blow to Grace, rescued Ranka and basically saved Frontier. He will be lauded as a national hero and as such, it will be up to him if he wants to continue on active duty or not.

But I do agree that it is likely that he will do some acting again in the future, although I do not see him returning to it full-time.
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Old 2011-04-21, 13:35   Link #1254
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Funny site, but it seems like the old version.
THIS is the current one: forums.bleachboard
Aarrgghh!
I usually tend to lurk in the shadows, but after clicking the link to the bleach forums, my phone was nearly throttled alive.... I could feel my intelligence melting. It felt as if Finland's election result wasn't that bad.

Okay, I'm done with ranting/retreats back into shadows
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Old 2011-04-21, 13:47   Link #1255
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I could feel my intelligence melting. It felt as if Finland's election result wasn't that bad.
Hey, I don't want to hear someone who lives in one of the top five HAPPIEST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD complain about ANYTHING!

But its understandable, that forum can melt your brains faster than a zombie can eat them.

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Old 2011-04-21, 14:25   Link #1256
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Also, he's still legally a kid, even if he is a soldier, he is seventeen-eighteen at the end of the series, and would probably be considered a prime candidate when they cut down on the military and put several soldiers on inactive duty (easily put on active if something happens, but otherwise should lead normal lives). It might take a year or two for things to truly settle down, but it doesn't mean that he needs time off to get himself in order after having seen all that death, fought monsters and pretty much been through hell and back before his eighteenth birthday.
Thanks to Ozma we know that at least in frontier a person is considered an adult when they are 17 years old, in episode 6 when he's talking with ranka and says "Besides you are already sixteen. Next year you'll be considered an adult" so that is not a problem for Alto.

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I don't think it so likely that he'll be put on inactive duty. After all, it was him who dealt the final blow to Grace, rescued Ranka and basically saved Frontier. He will be lauded as a national hero and as such, it will be up to him if he wants to continue on active duty or not.

But I do agree that it is likely that he will do some acting again in the future, although I do not see him returning to it full-time.
I agree with this, Alto joined the military just because SMS left Frontier but now that they are back I think he will join them again.
Before the war started SMS was in charge of research nearby space and test the newest Valkyries even before the NUNS could get their hands on them, something I think Alto would like very much to do when the next Valkyrie shows up (ala Isamu), so that's why I see him staying in SMS.

Now, just to clarify I don't have anything against Alto acting again, what magnuskn suggested about acting some times is OK.
The thing is that when I read "returning to kabuki" I took it as Alto returning to the Saotome family and putting Yasaburo in second place for the name succession, so when Ranzo dies or retires Alto would take the name of "Saotome Ranzo the 19th" and he would need to become an actor and just an actor for the sake of the Saotome tradition.
That, becoming the next "Saotome Ranzo" is what I can't see Alto doing, acting some times or make "special appearances" now that the war is over is otherwise fine.
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Old 2011-04-21, 15:09   Link #1257
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Thanks to Ozma we know that at least in frontier a person is considered an adult when they are 17 years old, in episode 6 when he's talking with ranka and says "Besides you are already sixteen. Next year you'll be considered an adult" so that is not a problem for Alto.
Ah, I forgot that and thought that the military drafting age was the same as the real world, and that SMS got away with it because they were mercenaries, and that NUNS later got away with it was because they were drafting trained mercenaries during a time of crisis.

I also can't see Alto go exclusively into acting, or taking over the Saotome enterprise, but I do think he'll do a combination of acting and flying, since it wasn't acting he was against, just the pressures, expectations and demands that was made of him as Alto Saotome.

Plus, even Luca shows that like most corporate/company heads/heirs need a certain kind of ruthlessness in them to succeed, and for that Yasaburo is more suited and devoted than Alto could ever be, and still be happy.

You know, the seventeen age thing do explain why everyone takes Luca seriously; it's not just his parents' weapons, but also that he is considered an adult.

And this just went very off topic, okay, back to the ship wars! Man your canon -er, cannons! Get ready, set and fire at will!

I'll be eating popcorn in the crow's nest. (What? I've been through every Final Fantasy, Pokémon, Digimon, Harry Potter, Gundam and many, many other ship wars in my time, by now they're mostly entertaining as long as things doesn't get too nasty.)
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Old 2011-04-21, 18:19   Link #1258
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I'll be eating popcorn in the crow's nest. (What? I've been through every Final Fantasy, Pokémon, Digimon, Harry Potter, Gundam and many, many other ship wars in my time, by now they're mostly entertaining as long as things doesn't get too nasty.)
Wow, you missed out on the Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel fights. Charges of supporting unrepentant mass murderers were flying to and fro.
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Old 2011-04-21, 18:56   Link #1259
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I'll be eating popcorn in the crow's nest. (What? I've been through every Final Fantasy, Pokémon, Digimon, Harry Potter, Gundam and many, many other ship wars in my time, by now they're mostly entertaining as long as things doesn't get too nasty.)
Oh final fantasy even after the creators all said that Cloud was with Tifa in several interviews, two ultimanias, two official novels, and one anniversary collection and yet people still haven't let up people still haven't let up.

Gundam ah brings back memories too nostalgia, those fake interviews really were a doozy. Harry Potter even if R.K. Rowling ultimately ended up strangling her main character with the red string of fate, its still funny reread some of the ship manifestos; Digimon even the Japanese voice actors wondered how the heck those couples got together.

I don't know if the Macross Frontier debate will last too long, because too many people expected the ending we got.
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Old 2011-04-21, 19:28   Link #1260
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Oh final fantasy even after the creators all said that Cloud was with Tifa in several interviews, two ultimanias, two official novels, and one anniversary collection and yet people still haven't let up people still haven't let up.
Well, the fact that the more mainstream continuation (FFVII Advent Children) doesn't really express that point, at all, doesn't really help.

Also, I'm a shipper with no more patience for shipping arguments. The triangle is over. The Voice of God has stated so. No more discussion about "couldas", "shouldas" or "wouldas" for me. I'm done, honestly.
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