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Old 2011-05-20, 02:53   Link #1321
Yot-chan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I did not argue it at first. I gave an opinion and people bit my head off. I was just putting out what came up in my mind. What happened to that "freedom of speech?" I wouldn't have said anything had people just probably ignored it or told me what THEY thought rather than saying I'm delusional. Kujoe was actually very civil, (thank you.) but the others... hardly.
Now, now...be honest. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, your opinion is just that: your opinion. It was when you started making up supposed "facts" (like when you said that May'n was picked because Kawamori didn't like Aya Endo's singing voice, or that the Frontier Fleet launched in 2012, or that Tokyo was under water) that I started getting upset.

So no, it's not just your opinion that's getting you into trouble. And people who make up things and then take them as fact are, indeed, delusional.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Yes, you are right, Roy says "fickle girl." AnimeCentral translated most of the series so far if you wanna download them, just 2 left.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-05-20 at 11:29. Reason: SDFM is LICENSED...
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Old 2011-05-20, 03:15   Link #1322
Natsuki Hyuga
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
This discussion belongs in the SDF thread, no?
Nope, this thread is generally for discussing every romance in Macross series. The thread name itself should speak clarity, even if we all are too absorbed in MacF triangle all over this year

Whether Basara should have married a space whale instead of Mylene, or whether Max and Millia is such an adorable couple even pre-microed Millia or whether Sharon Apple shall go dominatrix to every single men in Macross Plus, you actually can discuss them all here

In fact, I believe even if SDF rewatch just started, this thread itself is a seperate topic, so I personally think it's okay to give opinions or make an argument on SDF Macross relationship. But not in the rewatch thread until the scene related to certain discussion pops up there.

/GOES OFF TO WATCH PIRATES OF CARIBBEAN NOW TO KYAA KYAA @ JOHNNY DEPP/
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Old 2011-05-20, 04:14   Link #1323
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
It was when you started making up supposed "facts" (like when you said that May'n was picked because Kawamori didn't like Aya Endo's singing voice, or that the Frontier Fleet launched in 2012, or that Tokyo was under water) that I started getting upset.
Not to reopen old arguments, but wasn't the point about Frontier's launch continuity dependent? It's weird to argue over the "facts" of a fictional universe, especially one with so many alternate renditions of events.

Real life events are another story.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Regardless that the movie is different than the series when it comes to when they met, Hikaru STILL chose to fall in love with her for NO reason. He had barely met her in both universes (though in the movie she was famous then). He didn't quite know what he was getting into and once he realized just how unaware she was of his affections, he ended up falling for Misa, his own COMMANDER.
Do people normally choose to fall in love? Do they usually draw up lists with reasons beforehand?
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Old 2011-05-20, 09:38   Link #1324
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Their attitude.

Chi-Chi was described as a bitch and especially in the English version, both Minmei and Chi-Chi had the same play on me. In the Japanese, though, Chi-Chi was worse in terms of "I should be more important to you than anything else!" Minmei started that phase when she was living with Hikaru. Otherwise, besides that, both women found THEMSELVES more important than the war, yet they would swallow their pride and stand up to help in the end. When it comes to HOW that plays, they are different. Also, Minmei had a difference that she loved her fans more than Hikaru till the end.
Anyone who said that Chi chi was a selfish bitch has never seen Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z. Even the Japanese version Chi-Chi doesn't put herself first. Who she puts first in everything are her children, and her family. She never goes "What about me?" she only goes "What about Gohan, what about his future?". She doesn't want Gohan to fight because she's afraid he'll be killed, and the reason why she is like that is because of Goku and the things that he went through. But even then she once punched Gohan's tutor through a window for insulting Goku before Gohan after Goku died.

You can't say that Chi chi finds herself more important than the war, because she has never anything like to make anyone say that, besides Chi-chi's world isn't always at war (if you could even call it that). It was actually Bulma who was more selfish than Chi-chi.

Minmei meanwhile was a normal girl caught up in a war, and so did not know how to respond to it. There is also a question of whether or not Minmei really did love Hikaru at all, while Chi-Chi loved Goku from the start, and never stopped loving him even though she could have easily had anyone else. You saying that they have something in common besides being Chinese is proof of you not watching either series.



Quote:
I did not argue it at first. I gave an opinion and people bit my head off. I was just putting out what came up in my mind. What happened to that "freedom of speech?" I wouldn't have said anything had people just probably ignored it or told me what THEY thought rather than saying I'm delusional. Kujoe was actually very civil, (thank you.) but the others... hardly.
I would help if you didn't bring up old discussions. All of things you bring up (except for you rather sexist Alto should only marry a girly girl who can cook argument) are things that have been brought up before by people who not only did pay attention to the series, but also weren't Ranka-centered in their views like you and therefore didn't need to insert her into events that didn't involve her, didn't make things up, and are generally much better at debating. It would also help if you didn't act like you were were high mighty and knew more than everyone here, despite you getting your information from wikipedia, which is public and can be edited by anyone, and if you didn't outright make things up.

@efrine
I don't think any of the alternate re-tellings say that Frontier launched in 2012, so not even that argument helps.

Last edited by wisteria233; 2011-05-20 at 10:00.
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Old 2011-05-20, 10:39   Link #1325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I did not argue it at first. I gave an opinion and people bit my head off. I was just putting out what came up in my mind. What happened to that "freedom of speech?" I wouldn't have said anything had people just probably ignored it or told me what THEY thought rather than saying I'm delusional
You are certainly welcomed to have freedom of speech, but you having freedom of speech does not mean the rest of us don't, and should stay quiet while you spew incorrect information. Moreover, this is a public forum, your statements come under public scrutiny. If we can deal with it, you should too.

Personally, I can care less whose fan you are, but when you start utilizing falsehoods to support your statements and then attempt to defend a rather hopeless position when proven wrong, it starts to get irksome quickly. For example, where did you get the information that Kawamori picked May'N because Aya couldn't sing? Of course Kawamori wouldn't pick Endo, the latter was never a singer in the first place!

Then telling us to take off our shipping goggles? And post something resembling a discussion about shipping? Sorry dear, self-contradiction and hypocrisy can only go so far.

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Old 2011-05-20, 11:36   Link #1326
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I don't know where to begin with the character mis-interpretations there...

But I do want to emphasize that any replies (to LMK's post above) MUST stay civil (that includes you LMK) or I WILL delete the whole post. If anyone can't, then there WILL be warnings given out.
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Old 2011-05-20, 11:55   Link #1327
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I'm only talking about replies to your post.
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Old 2011-05-20, 11:56   Link #1328
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I'm only talking about replies to your post.
Oh, okay.
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Old 2011-05-20, 17:57   Link #1329
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Spoiler for off topic:

Quote:
Again, you're missing the point. Minmei didn't START out in a war. She was a normal kid. Hikaru crashes into her house. He chooses to fall in love with her when they are alone on SDF-1 after their small "adventure." Minmei took advantage of that just like Chi-Chi did Goku, neither man knowing where the relationship was going or what was going on. The only difference, Chi-Chi married Goku, Minmei only "play married" him and then laughed it off, as if it were a joke.
The war against the Zentradi starts in episode one, we only ever see Minmei during the war, you'd know this if you ever watched Macross. We never really get to see Minmei when there isn't a war, and while Minmei took advantage of Hikaru, without knowing it. Chi-chi didn't take advantage of Goku, since she didn't know that he had no idea what marriage meant, and she had no way of knowing. Also Chi-chi never once strung Goku along, she was interested in him from the very start. So once again the only thing they have in common is the fact that they are Chinese.

Quote:
Actually, Chi-Chi had a CRUSH on Goku as kids. When she grew up, she became more selfish. I still remember at the tournament where she told him he promised to marry her. Remember his reaction? "Marry!? What's that?" Whilst Chi-Chi's feelings MIGHT have grown, he obviously didn't show a true interest in romance UNTIL he married Chi-Chi, as he was around LOTS of women who wanted a pass at him (Bulma included). He ALSO chose to love Chi-Chi, to fulfill a promise, not because he loved her in return. But you also miss the fact that whilst Chi-Chi MIGHT love him, when he dies, she's more angered than sad, and also, she gets over it EASILY. It's amazing how irritating she can be to me even now.
And you're forgetting the part, where Goku basically goes, "sure, why not" after he finds out what marriage means. Oh and you're also forgetting the fact that he could have easily gotten out of it if he didn't want to do it, by either turning her down, or just leaving via flying nimbus. Also it was outright stated that Chi-chi fell in love with Goku once they met again sometime before the demon king Piccolo arc. Also, you don't choose who you fall in love with, you don't even get to choose whether or not you fall out of love with someone love doesn't work like that.

Quote:
Minmei, when Hikaru was gone, got over it easily too. Once or twice came the "is he okay?" But she pushed it aside until she saw him return with MISA.
What are you talking about? Minmei wasn't interested in Hikaru at all before the time skip, and after the time skip she had no idea that he was with Misa until the final episodes. You're not helping my doubts about you having seen SDF.

Quote:
Plus, both girls had a strong fighting spirit. Minmei, despite seeing what horrible things the Zentradi could do, still sang to reach out to them, even - in DYRL - stood on a ramp like a TARGET where she could be killed and SANG. Chi-Chi is also the same way. When you get her started, she'll fight you till the end. It's obvious that Chinese women are strong. But remember that all women have hearts. Whilst Chi-Chi's wasn't broken, Minmei's was.
Minmei never got a chance to see the horrible things the Zentradi could do, because she was never on the front lines, and DYRL is a different continuity, and I doubt you've ever seen that too, with this comment. Minmei had to be convinced by Hikaru to sing the song, and the ramp was safely inside of the ship, they were using projectors, and holograms to display her image to the battlefield. No real fighting spirit was needed there.

Last edited by wisteria233; 2011-05-20 at 21:32.
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Old 2011-05-20, 21:24   Link #1330
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I'm going to avoid the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z discussion due to its offtopic nature, but I'd like to mention that as far as Minmei and her role in the love triangle is concerned, the Robotech adaptation pretty much made me react kind of negatively to her.

Oh yes, you heard me right indeed... and I'm as guilty as charged. I watched Robotech first before the original Macross, and I've not even completely seen all of it in the original Japanese format. I didn't strongly hate her or anything, but it took the movie Do You Remember Love for me to fully appreciate her character and somewhat feel for her when she fails in love. She is quite different from her TV series counterpart however.

My memory of how her character is depicted in the Robotech adaptation is foggy at best, but with regard to characterization I assume she's more or less the same character in Macross?
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Old 2011-05-20, 21:33   Link #1331
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
I'm going to avoid the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z discussion due to its offtopic nature, but I'd like to mention that as far as Minmei and her role in the love triangle is concerned, the Robotech adaptation pretty much made me react kind of negatively to her.

Oh yes, you heard me right indeed... and I'm as guilty as charged. I watched Robotech first before the original Macross, and I've not even completely seen all of it in the original Japanese format. I didn't strongly hate her or anything, but it took the movie Do You Remember Love for me to fully appreciate her character and somewhat feel for her when she fails in love. She is quite different from her TV series counterpart however.

My memory of how her character is depicted in the Robotech adaptation is foggy at best, but with regard to characterization I assume she's more or less the same character in Macross?
I first watched the Robotech adaption, also, and I wasn't a huge fan of either girl when I watched it. It was DYRL that made me fall for both girls and made the ending bittersweet. I had heard Ijima's "Do You Remember Love" before Mamegu's, and seeing the film along with it made it one of the best songs ever in Macross. ;A;
Well, at least, to me.

As for character similarity between the Japanese and English adaptions, I couldn't really tell you, since I've only seen the first episode of SDFM in Japanese so far.
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Old 2011-05-20, 21:35   Link #1332
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
I'm going to avoid the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z discussion due to its offtopic nature, but I'd like to mention that as far as Minmei and her role in the love triangle is concerned, the Robotech adaptation pretty much made me react kind of negatively to her.

Oh yes, you heard me right indeed... and I'm as guilty as charged. I watched Robotech first before the original Macross, and I've not even completely seen all of it in the original Japanese format. I didn't strongly hate her or anything, but it took the movie Do You Remember Love for me to fully appreciate her character and somewhat feel for her when she fails in love. She is quite different from her TV series counterpart however.

My memory of how her character is depicted in the Robotech adaptation is foggy at best, but with regard to characterization I assume she's more or less the same character in Macross?
Well Minmei is more appreciative of Hikaru in DYRL than she was in SDF, as she recognizes the fact that Hikaru likes her, and returns his feelings. She also comes across as more mature in DYRL than she was SDF.

As for differences between the English version and the Japanese version. English version Minmei was annoying Japanese version Minmei behaved more like a young girl thrown into a war, she doesn't really take notice of Hikaru and takes him for granted, frequently hurting him without knowing.
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Old 2011-05-20, 22:07   Link #1333
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SDF Minmay was just not that into you, Hikaru.

DYRL Minmay otoh did, but she lost the (triangle again), but she did keep her stellar singing career. So everyone won.
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Old 2011-05-21, 11:08   Link #1334
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
My memory of how her character is depicted in the Robotech adaptation is foggy at best, but with regard to characterization I assume she's more or less the same character in Macross?
Not in the slightest. Carl Macek said in a 2001 interview that he deliberately made her more annoying than she was originally:

http://www.robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=15

kurtkr Was it your intention for the Minmei character to be so annoying or did it just turn out that way?

Carl Macek says: It was always my belief that Minmei's immediate popularity onboard the SDF-1 was a bitter pill to swallow. Therefore, if her "talent" was marginal - but her "spirit" was high - it could show that even misguided personalities like "Minmei" could have a positive effect on people and dramatic situations. Melodrama is made up by extremes - and Robotech was played as melodrama - remember these characters are archetypes.
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Old 2011-05-24, 21:37   Link #1335
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
An opinion I had:

Okay, for a moment, take off your shipper goggles. I did when I found this thought entering my mind. Just be open-minded with this opinion please, as I may not have proof directly, but the scenes do add up to show this thought has structure to it. It isn’t like I just made this up, I thought about it long and hard over the last few days.

Episodes: 19-25

Spoiler for Remember this is just an OPINION!:

Now you can say what you want. Remember that this is just an opinion. Alto is a complicated person to read, honestly, as he thinks way too much about things that truly shouldn’t matter to him that much if they aren’t important (like his past). Phew. Hope you enjoyed. ^o^
I got a serious headache reading this fangirl post, and could feel reality slipping away and being replaced by fantasy, as your delusional views of different scenes, tried to drag me into said fantasy. He and Ranka never had any meaningful connection. She knew nothing about him, and had an image in her head about who and what he was, without trying to get to know him at all. Almost every single conversation they ever had(that we the viewers were shown), was about her. I'm sorry, but relationships don't work that way. Ranka doesn't yet have the emotional maturity for a relationship, especially when she and Alto are on two different levels. Hell, almost every scene that had them together, he was either saving her, or listening to her rant and rave about her life, or her singing. At least with Sheryl, there were some signs of learning about each other, and some chemistry being mixed around.

But alas, I'm just repeating some of the many, many points that have been posted here over the past couple of years.
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Old 2011-05-24, 21:52   Link #1336
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I got a serious headache reading this fangirl post, and could feel reality slipping away and being replaced by fantasy, as your delusional views of different scenes, tried to drag me into said fantasy. He and Ranka never had any meaningful connection. She knew nothing about him, and had an image in her head about who and what he was, without trying to get to know him at all. Almost every single conversation they ever had(that we the viewers were shown), was about her. I'm sorry, but relationships don't work that way. Ranka doesn't yet have the emotional maturity for a relationship, especially when she and Alto are on two different levels. Hell, almost every scene that had them together, he was either saving her, or listening to her rant and rave about her life, or her singing. At least with Sheryl, there were some signs of learning about each other, and some chemistry being mixed around.

But alas, I'm just repeating some of the many, many points that have been posted here over the past couple of years.
I think you forget that Ranka's image of him faded after EP1!! Geez, you all let that one continue on forever like it's the truth. Honestly, Ranka sees him as handsome after she finds out he's NOT a woman. It's not that she has an "image" in her mind forever. No, she tries to connect, he even wants her to, but the time never seems right for them two. Ranka is also SHY! Oh yes, I can picture it now "Alto-kun, I like you" -///- "I mean... forget that." Alto goes "huh?" And saying that she rants and raves everytime they see each other makes her sound conceited. And actually, not EVERY conversation was about her. Actually, whenever a conversation comes up about her after the first few episodes, it's brought up by HIM, not her. Hah, to be honest with you, he barely manages to save her. Actually, they spend more time together than you think. After all, in the series, they became quite close together where they could hold a cemented conversation - even better than Michael, Luca, or Nanase. They were quite close together. Plus, they had conversations without fights like he does with Sheryl a lot. THAT shows they have been able to connect and grow.

Don't forget the fact that it was Alto who helped Ranka grow up and sing. It was also RANKA who Alto chose to fight for. They each chose their career with the strength the other gave them. That's equality.
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Old 2011-05-24, 22:18   Link #1337
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I think you forget that Ranka's image of him faded after EP1!! Geez, you all let that one continue on forever like it's the truth. Honestly, Ranka sees him as handsome after she finds out he's NOT a woman. It's not that she has an "image" in her mind forever. No, she tries to connect, he even wants her to, but the time never seems right for them two. Ranka is also SHY! Oh yes, I can picture it now "Alto-kun, I like you" -///- "I mean... forget that." Alto goes "huh?" And saying that she rants and raves everytime they see each other makes her sound conceited. And actually, not EVERY conversation was about her. Actually, whenever a conversation comes up about her after the first few episodes, it's brought up by HIM, not her. Hah, to be honest with you, he barely manages to save her. Actually, they spend more time together than you think. After all, in the series, they became quite close together where they could hold a cemented conversation - even better than Michael, Luca, or Nanase. They were quite close together. Plus, they had conversations without fights like he does with Sheryl a lot. THAT shows they have been able to connect and grow.

Don't forget the fact that it was Alto who helped Ranka grow up and sing. It was also RANKA who Alto chose to fight for. They each chose their career with the strength the other gave them. That's equality.
I think you mean with the strength that Sheryl gave them.
And no it took several episodes for her to see Alto as other thing than her image of him. Yes there was interest from alto at first since Ranka was nice, but from Ranka is "enough of me let's talk about you, what do you think of me?"

And they didn't became close if they have there wouldn't be so many misundersatndings between them, and also the triangle was far more important for the series than friendship wich is why there isn't more time showing alto an say Michael talking but you knew it was there because Alto was at SMS most of the time training plus they were roomates.
Also it's to notice that fighting is quite healtly in relationships as long as it isn't too serious. And once again Alto and Ranka NEVER connected that was the whole point of chapter 21.

Also Alto used Ranka as an excuse and he said so himself, he could have chosed anything else to fight for if she weren't there.
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Old 2011-05-24, 22:31   Link #1338
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I think you forget that Ranka's image of him faded after EP1!!
Actually, it didn't - it lasts through to episode 21 (if not the end), at least in part. Proof is on page 65 of 2059: Memories, which I don't have time to upload.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Don't forget the fact that it was Alto who helped Ranka grow up and sing. It was also RANKA who Alto chose to fight for. They each chose their career with the strength the other gave them. That's equality.
As teelatsuki said, you're missing the fact that it was SHERYL who got them both to do that (I might be remembering the novel here, or an interview, but it was written somewhere that Alto chose to push Ranka, and himself, because he was inspired by Sheryl in some way).
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Old 2011-05-24, 22:57   Link #1339
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Actually, it didn't - it lasts through to episode 21 (if not the end), at least in part.
Yes because honestly, I lost count how many times *KIRAKIRA/SPARLKLY* Alto from episode 1 was shown through the course of the season.

(at least thats how I'm interpreting Ranka's "image" of him)
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Old 2011-05-25, 00:51   Link #1340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I think you forget that Ranka's image of him faded after EP1!! Geez, you all let that one continue on forever like it's the truth. Honestly, Ranka sees him as handsome after she finds out he's NOT a woman. It's not that she has an "image" in her mind forever. No, she tries to connect, he even wants her to, but the time never seems right for them two. Ranka is also SHY! Oh yes, I can picture it now "Alto-kun, I like you" -///- "I mean... forget that." Alto goes "huh?" And saying that she rants and raves everytime they see each other makes her sound conceited. And actually, not EVERY conversation was about her. Actually, whenever a conversation comes up about her after the first few episodes, it's brought up by HIM, not her. Hah, to be honest with you, he barely manages to save her. Actually, they spend more time together than you think. After all, in the series, they became quite close together where they could hold a cemented conversation - even better than Michael, Luca, or Nanase. They were quite close together. Plus, they had conversations without fights like he does with Sheryl a lot. THAT shows they have been able to connect and grow.

Don't forget the fact that it was Alto who helped Ranka grow up and sing. It was also RANKA who Alto chose to fight for. They each chose their career with the strength the other gave them. That's equality.

You remind me so much of all the other fangirls I've seen over the years. Ranka and Alto were never CLOSE. Not in the way that you wish they were.

As for an example of her impossible and fantasy view of him, remember when Ranka was all gushy when he made that heart in the sky during her concert, thinking it was for her from him, without ANY evidence that he truly liked her that way. And forgetting that it was his JOB to make entertainment in the sky for her concert and the fans(you know, like he did with Sheryl in episode One???). They'd never kissed(outside of acting in a movie), or even held hands. There was no talk at all between them about romance or relationships, or much in the way of sexual tension(I believe the only time they had sexual tension was on the one planet for one scene, compared to the dozens the he and Sheryl had throughout the series).

Someday, you will look back at these earlier posts, and wonder WTF were you thinking...
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