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Old 2010-04-29, 22:57   Link #21
Vexx
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What annoys me is that once every season or year or so, the OP will necromance his threads or some such to assert these ideas - and they just lack much in the way of credibility or make assertions that shows a serious lack of understanding of the realities of the Internet, the realities of connectivity, the needs of customers, or the market forces in play.

Streaming is definitely part of the package... but fails to address a large percentage of the consuming base.
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Old 2010-04-29, 23:07   Link #22
fertygo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Plus, "professional" subbing companies are clearly outclassed by fansubs, who can clearly produce a better sub than those who are actually paid for their services.
Blah, Outclassed ?
I think not, Because they're not biased with japan language term, doesn't mean they're bad.

Familiar with subs from gg rite ? Basically mostly of R1 official translation is like that.
They don't care about honorifics etc and even change the dialogue to something different to adjust mood in the scene. Other people maybe not like this kind of approach, but I'm fine with that, as long its fitting and not make me wrong in interpreting the storyline or the mood's of dialogue.

Blah why i be accused saying "professional" subs better than fansubs translation, I don't even say any word about that
I'm just say's being not literal enough, doesn't mean its bad on translation works. Btw R1 translation will never change from this style, so demands of fansub will keep exist if fans not satisfied with it.
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Old 2010-04-29, 23:34   Link #23
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
You know, many people who want a physical copy -
1) want a DVD collection. They *collect* DVDs. They spend lots of damned money on anime and manga.
Yes I do. As long as I don't have to pay an obscene price per episode. 20 euros the three episodes are ok. About 25 euros, they can bite me.
Quote:
2) want an option to archive material that doesn't ever get released on DVD in their region. Currently, fansubs are the choice.
More true.

Foreign distributors seems to fail to realize that different countries = different anime fandom history = different anime culture = different needs and expectations.

France's mainstream anime fandom have a strong bias against anime adapted from bishoujo games, endorsed by video game testers that just called them 'pick-up-girl-porn game'. This means that anime such as Fate/Stay Night, Clannad and Kanon have NEVER been licensed in France. France also have a psychosis against lolis and its possible connection to pedophilia, and unless it is Clamp or a famous studio, you won't see any other magical girl anime in france. So Nanoha in France? No way in hell!
Quote:
3) Don't have "an amazing broadband connection". Streaming is a disaster on many connections with stops, burps, buffering and many people don't know how to fix it. Also, many ISPs have this little thing called "data transfer caps" the streaming advocates utterly ignore in their flagwaving.

Never mind that streaming can be captured anyway, eh?
This is why I don't watch on crunchy roll. My connection is bad enough as it is. So fansubs will still have a future for frenchmen, other than hadopi law but we will always find a way.
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Old 2010-04-29, 23:41   Link #24
Last Sinner
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Wow, really? And I thought Australia had problems...
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Old 2010-04-30, 01:45   Link #25
Marcus H.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
Blah, Outclassed ?
I think not, Because they're not biased with japan language term, doesn't mean they're bad.

Familiar with subs from gg rite ? Basically mostly of R1 official translation is like that.
They don't care about honorifics etc and even change the dialogue to something different to adjust mood in the scene. Other people maybe not like this kind of approach, but I'm fine with that, as long its fitting and not make me wrong in interpreting the storyline or the mood's of dialogue.

Blah why i be accused saying "professional" subs better than fansubs translation, I don't even say any word about that
I'm just say's being not literal enough, doesn't mean its bad on translation works. Btw R1 translation will never change from this style, so demands of fansub will keep exist if fans not satisfied with it.
I'm not really saying that how they translate stuff is inferior.

Also, my main concern is that the only way for R3 people like myself to enjoy anime is through fansubs OR simulcasts (Thank God Hero TV in the Philippines managed to grab the rights to dub Naruto Shippuuden etc etc.) and DVD sales here are almost nonexistent.

So where the hell are we gonna get our legal anime? Since "the law" states that we can't get any legal means to acquire R3 anime means we can't do anything about it?
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Old 2010-04-30, 02:32   Link #26
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I'm not really saying that how they translate stuff is inferior.

Also, my main concern is that the only way for R3 people like myself to enjoy anime is through fansubs OR simulcasts (Thank God Hero TV in the Philippines managed to grab the rights to dub Naruto Shippuuden etc etc.) and DVD sales here are almost nonexistent.

So where the hell are we gonna get our legal anime? Since "the law" states that we can't get any legal means to acquire R3 anime means we can't do anything about it?
I used to think most English dubbing was bad but Taglish? Diyos ko.

I block that out from my cable even if they do have some series not even Animax has.
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Old 2010-04-30, 02:42   Link #27
Daiz
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The reason why I don't use CrunchyRoll:

1. They use RTMPe with limited amount of buffering, meaning that if your connection is even a bit sucky you WILL be BUFFERING BUFFERING BUFFERING BUFFERING BUFFERING all the time.
2. Their subtitle renderer is notably inferior compared to VSFilter/libass (the de facto renderers for fansubs), making the subs look aliased and so.
3. You can't affect the subtitle styling in any way if it sucks.
4. There's no chapters. Or actually they have support for them, but no shows have them.
5. You have to always re-download everything.
6. Performance is worse than with normal file playback (mainly thanks to the inefficiency of Flash).

The reason why I don't use any other streaming site:

1. I'm geoblocked from basically every single one that has anime.
2. If I'm not, they only have it dubbed. And I fucking hate dubs.
3. The quality is awful. FUNi's streams for example are 640x360 VP6 & MP3 in FLV. Needless to say, they look horrible.

Streaming technology needs to go up quite a bit before I might even consider using it. VSFilter/libass equivalent for Flash might not exist even in five years time.

I wish companies would just offer legit non-DRM'd digital downloads using H.264, MKV and softsubs. And decent quality, obviously. I'd buy that. Naturally, I wouldn't buy anything inferior, which is what CrunchyRoll for example offered in the form of hardsubbed XviD AVIs.

Unfortunately it seems everyone is head over heels about streaming these days, which means that I'm probably going to rely on illegal alternatives for a long time to come.
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Old 2010-04-30, 05:26   Link #28
Spectacular_Insanity
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MORE.

You needed this option. More and more fansub groups are coming into being as time goes on. Yes, we are also losing some here and there, but by and large it is an upward trend.
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Old 2010-04-30, 07:35   Link #29
Marcus H.
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@MeoTwister5

Well, Hero TV does make some disappointing dubs, especially with Blue Dragon (and their random throwing of Taglish (a mix of Tagalog, a native Philippine language) and English) and some others that I might remember later on, but maybe because of my 10+ years of watching dubs in the Philippines, I've managed to adapt to it and Hero ends up being tolerable. I still have to make myself comfy with English dubs.

Oh, and don't start with the "drowsy Zechs Marquise" dub. XD
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Old 2010-04-30, 08:21   Link #30
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
@MeoTwister5

Well, Hero TV does make some disappointing dubs, especially with Blue Dragon (and their random throwing of Taglish (a mix of Tagalog, a native Philippine language) and English) and some others that I might remember later on, but maybe because of my 10+ years of watching dubs in the Philippines, I've managed to adapt to it and Hero ends up being tolerable. I still have to make myself comfy with English dubs.

Oh, and don't start with the "drowsy Zechs Marquise" dub. XD
What about that horrid dub by ABS-CBN of Eva back in the 90's? That might actually be one of the reasons I hate that damn show.
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Old 2010-05-01, 01:46   Link #31
alamarco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
I wish companies would just offer legit non-DRM'd digital downloads using H.264, MKV and softsubs. And decent quality, obviously. I'd buy that. Naturally, I wouldn't buy anything inferior, which is what CrunchyRoll for example offered in the form of hardsubbed XviD AVIs.
Yeah, non-DRM is the way to go. People are stealing our shows, why not make it easier for them to do it? Sure pirates can easily get around any copyright protection, but that's no reason to make it easier to do so.
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:31   Link #32
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alamarco View Post
Yeah, non-DRM is the way to go. People are stealing our shows, why not make it easier for them to do it? Sure pirates can easily get around any copyright protection, but that's no reason to make it easier to do so.
That's a retarded argument. You say it yourself: DRM is already doing absolutely nothing to prevent people from warezing streams, and you haven't provided any argument as to why it'd be a good idea to keep it. In fact it seems like you're arguing in favor of removing it, since removing it wouldn't make any difference at all.

What actually happens in reality is that people get pissed because doing <thing> with the DRM'd release doesn't work (for example they can't watch on their <small plastic toy of choice>, like an ipod or a set-top box), and then they go download a pirated release that lets them do that instead. DRM does nothing to stop piracy, it only inconveniences legitimate customers and hence contributes to making piracy more popular.

You should really go read a few papers on DRM before you try arguing about it. I particularly recommend this one by Cory Doctorow of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

This part is particularly relevant:
Quote:
Raise your hand if you're thinking something like, "But DRM
doesn't have to be proof against smart attackers, only average
individuals! It's like a speedbump!"

Put your hand down.

This is a fallacy for two reasons: one technical, and one social.
They're both bad for society, though.

Here's the technical reason: I don't need to be a cracker to
break your DRM. I only need to know how to search Google, or
Kazaa, or any of the other general-purpose search tools for the
cleartext that someone smarter than me has extracted.

Raise your hand if you're thinking something like, "But NGSCB can
solve this problem: we'll lock the secrets up on the logic board
and goop it all up with epoxy."

Put your hand down.

Raise your hand if you're a co-author of the Darknet paper.

Everyone in the first group, meet the co-authors of the Darknet
paper. This is a paper that says, among other things, that DRM
will fail for this very reason. Put your hands down, guys.

Here's the social reason that DRM fails: keeping an honest user
honest is like keeping a tall user tall. DRM vendors tell us that
their technology is meant to be proof against average users, not
organized criminal gangs like the Ukranian pirates who stamp out
millions of high-quality counterfeits. It's not meant to be proof
against sophisticated college kids. It's not meant to be proof
against anyone who knows how to edit her registry, or hold down
the shift key at the right moment, or use a search engine. At the
end of the day, the user DRM is meant to defend against is the
most unsophisticated and least capable among us.

Here's a true story about a user I know who was stopped by DRM.
She's smart, college educated, and knows nothing about
electronics. She has three kids. She has a DVD in the living room
and an old VHS deck in the kids' playroom. One day, she brought
home the Toy Story DVD for the kids. That's a substantial
investment, and given the generally jam-smeared character of
everything the kids get their paws on, she decided to tape the
DVD off to VHS and give that to the kids -- that way she could
make a fresh VHS copy when the first one went south. She cabled
her DVD into her VHS and pressed play on the DVD and record on
the VCR and waited.

Before I go farther, I want us all to stop a moment and marvel at
this. Here is someone who is practically technophobic, but who
was able to construct a mental model of sufficient accuracy that
she figured out that she could connect her cables in the right
order and dub her digital disc off to analog tape. I imagine that
everyone in this room is the front-line tech support for someone
in her or his family: wouldn't it be great if all our non-geek
friends and relatives were this clever and imaginative?

I also want to point out that this is the proverbial honest user.
She's not making a copy for the next door neighbors. She's not
making a copy and selling it on a blanket on Canal Street. She's
not ripping it to her hard-drive, DivX encoding it and putting it
in her Kazaa sharepoint. She's doing something *honest* -- moving
it from one format to another. She's home taping.

Except she fails. There's a DRM system called Macrovision
embedded -- by law -- in every VHS that messes with the vertical
blanking interval in the signal and causes any tape made in this
fashion to fail. Macrovision can be defeated for about $10 with a
gadget readily available on eBay. But our infringer doesn't know
that. She's "honest." Technically unsophisticated. Not stupid,
mind you -- just naive.

The Darknet paper addresses this possibility: it even predicts
what this person will do in the long run: she'll find out about
Kazaa and the next time she wants to get a movie for the kids,
she'll download it from the net and burn it for them.
I really do recommend reading the entire paper though, it's very interesting.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:55   Link #33
Marcus H.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
What about that horrid dub by ABS-CBN of Eva back in the 90's? That might actually be one of the reasons I hate that damn show.
If you said that it stinks, I might be blessed that I haven't touched that. I think my very first dubbed anime is Zenki and Bt'X (though I haven't finished the latter).

@The quote by TheFluff
The problem with DRM is that they do not hold warranties for stuff that people who would be managing their CD's (e.g.) and know that after some x number of plays the files inside would be affected by the physical medium which is now overused.

DRM is trying to treat a single file in a certain medium as a single commercial entity. That doesn't work well in digital formats. In the end, every file you have is a bunch of 1's and 0's and tinkering a bunch or a thousand of those can change the file into a different one (a derivative or an unsecured version) thanks to the wonders of "open-source hacking".
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:57   Link #34
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
@The quote by TheFluff
The problem with DRM is that they do not hold warranties for stuff that people who would be managing their CD's (e.g.) and know that after some x number of plays the files inside would be affected by the physical medium which is now overused.

DRM is trying to treat a single file in a certain medium as a single commercial entity. That doesn't work well in digital formats. In the end, every file you have is a bunch of 1's and 0's and tinkering a bunch or a thousand of those can change the file into a different one (a derivative or an unsecured version) thanks to the wonders of "open-source hacking".
what the heck are you even talking about
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2010-05-01, 09:45   Link #35
Marcus H.
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DRM has as many holes as swiss cheese. It can't really do that much damage to pirates, honestly.
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Old 2010-05-01, 19:24   Link #36
seven|x_x
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the problem with drm, like any encryption, is that if you want the end user to be able to use the file, then there has to be a way to decrypt it.

before the thread completely derails from the future of fansubs... i really dont see that much changing. maybe some cyclical patterns of whats popular in fansubbing, but i dont see it falling off the map completely.

with the influx of speed subbers, and oversubbing, i think(read: hope) there might be a swing to quality subbing of a wider variety of shows. that is, until people just want the popular shows, and fast, again.
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Old 2010-05-01, 20:21   Link #37
james0246
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Future of fansubs?...3D! You heard it here (well, read it here) first.
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Old 2010-05-01, 23:38   Link #38
seven|x_x
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Future of fansubs?...3D! You heard it here (well, read it here) first.
that will certainly confuse things for the 2d-only otakus out there.

tbh though, thats something i definitely dont see happening.
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Old 2010-05-01, 23:59   Link #39
alamarco
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@TheFluff: Just because hackers can get around DRM doesn't mean you should remove it. Look at real-life security systems. Do you think banks said that about security systems? It used to be a lot easier to rob a bank, but they didn't just give up and remove security. The banks just didn't open up shop and let all the thieves in. They slowly improved their systems to make it harder and harder. Nothing is foolproof, but you can make things more difficult and make the consequences of getting caught rough.

DRM is just like that. They will slowly improve it as they learn more about it, more about the hackers, etc.
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Old 2010-05-02, 04:33   Link #40
Lord of Fire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alamarco View Post
@TheFluff: Just because hackers can get around DRM doesn't mean you should remove it. Look at real-life security systems. Do you think banks said that about security systems? It used to be a lot easier to rob a bank, but they didn't just give up and remove security. The banks just didn't open up shop and let all the thieves in. They slowly improved their systems to make it harder and harder. Nothing is foolproof, but you can make things more difficult and make the consequences of getting caught rough.

DRM is just like that. They will slowly improve it as they learn more about it, more about the hackers, etc.
A bank's security is needed, DRM is not. Plus, in some countries, it's technically illegal, despite no one acting on it. Where I live, I'm legally allowed to make or download a copy of any digital file I want, provided it's for my own use and I don't upload it to share with others. IOW, if I buy a CD and want to rip it to play on my MP3-player and not offer the files to any p2p network, I can't do that, even if the law allows (or at the very least, doesn't prohibit) me to.

Furthermore, we pay fees on blanks CDs and DVDs to compensate for this supposed income loss and the organizations responsible for redistributing this money make millions out of it. And it can take quite a while before the people entitled to it see anything from that.

Plus, DRM has been known to permanently ruin your system to the point where either a reformat is necessary or worse. I have yet to witness a bank's security frying my bank card or erasing all the data stored on it.

If they do this for anime, they'd only be encouraging piracy, not prevent it, just like the music and movie industry.
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