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Old 2009-10-25, 11:28   Link #661
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And harder to have killing blows made on you. Better ranged weapons and the need to march long distances are what killed the heavy armor, not rapiers. Then again, considering what anime armor's like, I can understand why people wouldn't want to bother.
True. I never claimed rapiers are what killed armor. Heck, having a rapier in no way makes it a certainty you can kill an armored opponent, it's just that the rapier as a weapon relies on agility for it's offense and defense, so while wearing armor may provide you with the defense, you're still limiting your offense. Neither is bad, but the two just don't compliment one another.

Kinda like getting a two-handed weapon and a shield. Sure, the shield gives you very good protection, but you can't use your two-handed sword to full effect while using it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Actually having plate armor on your waist means you are going to die a little faster. King Richard learnt it the hard way when his best knights are knocked from their horses and couldn't get up fast enough to deal with the pikemen, who simply drove their pikes into their helmet slots. In fact, I even read in a book that the Saracens implemented a field techniques on how to deal with the "armored beasts" of the KTs by just closing in on 2 sides, then getting the guy on the shield hand to slash at the chinks in their armour.
Word. I was knocked down and killed in a very similar way a couple of times, the first time I was wearing plate someone had to actually help me up because I hadn't figured out the trick of getting up yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Aria doesn't really look like a rapier to me, but she has the traits, long and slender blade for longer reaches and a grip-guard to prevent disarms by long weapons.
Yeah, I was scratching my head wondering what type of sword she was myself, I ended up with rapier for 3 reasons:
  1. A slender blade, in fact Aria is the slimmest sword we have seen so far.
  2. The spiral handguard around the crucifix handguard, a common design for rapiers.
  3. When used in combat, the only slashing is done when creating wind. In close combat, Aria has so far only been used in thrusting attacks (in the OP, during Aria's flashback, and once again when Cecily defeated Jack).

Combining these three, the only weapon that stood out in my mind was a rapier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
About Cecily's armor having breast forms....I think it is because it gives her a comfortable lift and bras don't exist yet.
Designer of Cecily's armor: Uhm... yeah. Yeah what he said. *sneaks off*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Of course, armor doesn't make you invincible. It's just generally better to have it, that's all. (Did you think those medieval soldiers were wearing it for fun?)
Part functionality, part showoff. Knights were the elite after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Indeed not. Life's full of those trade-offs. I'm just saying, if all we're looking at is a one on one sword fight, it's better to have good plate armor.
When both use the standard knight weapons? Yes. But there are more factors in play. Armor gives you an advantage, but not one that is impossible to get around. Providing you have the proper gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
More like 20kg. Unless you're talking about tournament armor, which weren't used in actual battle. Lighter than a modern's soldier's kit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour#Composition
Amazing how little some things change, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
I think the biggest thing is people are bashing her more on her character, and using the absurd armor as an excuse.
Heck no, I love her. Sure, the armor is absurd by realistic standards, but if it looks jummy, I ain't complaining.

I just like to talk about this stuff. Heck, the whole medieval setting is the main reason I started watching this series in the first place. Too few anime use western swords and armor, and to see them get an anime spin is a lot of fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LKK View Post
All this talk about Cecily's breastplate and lack of stomach covering ignores the fact that except for the additional allowance for her breasts, her armor is exactly the same as the ones worn by the male members of the knights. Check out ep 2 where there are numerous close-up shots of what the male knights wear. Cecily's armor, the half-chest breastplate, is exactly the same as the men's. Her entire upper body outfit is the same as their's. Cecily's outfit doesn't differ from the men's until the lower half where she wears that little skirt while the men wear pants. What I'm trying to say is that everyone wears outfits like hers. It's a standard issue uniform for the city's knights, not some bizarre style that she alone is wearing. (The fact that the size of her breastplate's breasts keeps changing, I attribute to poor animation.)
Not entirely, the other knights also wear vambraces and gauntlets, as well as a dual-spaulder. Considering they often use the heavier swords, it makes sense. Their swords lead to parrying more quickly, and the more you parry the more you need to protect your arms and hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Samurai who also wore armor, for much the same reasons.
Yeah, hollywood and anime (especially anime) really did set a huge misconception that samurai didn't wear armor.

Ninja often didn't though, they used a series of underhanded tactics and specialized weaponry to win from the samurai instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
With that information, I am starting to think that there is little use of that armor, probably as a psychological effect. Plate armor souldn't be so light if it is reinforced, so it must have been used only for deflecting slashes and arrows.
That about described medieval plate in a nutshell. Deflecting slashes and arrows.

That is also the reason why European weapons started to concentrate on piercing, targeting the weak points of the armor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
1. The opponent
2. The stance
3. The off-hand (if it is still attached to you)
And the range of the sword, and it's penetration power, and it's form, and it's cutting power, and... Well, there are really a ton of variables in weapons, and one does not automatically wield the same as the other. A katana is a curved slicing weapon, often wielded with two hands whereas Cecily's former sword was a one-handed straight slicing and piercing weapon. That alone already requires one to re-teach themselves how to fight.
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Old 2009-10-25, 11:43   Link #662
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
True. I never claimed rapiers are what killed armor. Heck, having a rapier in no way makes it a certainty you can kill an armored opponent, it's just that the rapier as a weapon relies on agility for it's offense and defense, so while wearing armor may provide you with the defense, you're still limiting your offense. Neither is bad, but the two just don't compliment one another.

Kinda like getting a two-handed weapon and a shield. Sure, the shield gives you very good protection, but you can't use your two-handed sword to full effect while using it.
I'm not so sure that's the problem, here. Good articulated plate shouldn't hamper its wearer. I think it has more to do with the time period and what you're going to face. Armor's no good against powerful firearms. Rapier's no good against armor. (I mean, yeah, you can go for the weak points, but the problem is that your opponent will be moving around and trying to kill you...)
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Old 2009-10-25, 11:44   Link #663
TrueKnight
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Somehow I just knew this whole Samurai/Katana >>>>> Knight/armor would come up sooner or later, but oh well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart
With that information, I am starting to think that there is little use of that armor, probably as a psychological effect. Plate armor souldn't be so light if it is reinforced, so it must have been used only for deflecting slashes and arrows.
No, plate armors were essential part of an European Medieval army up until mid 16th century because of what they do, to withstand slash, piercing weapons and on some point, missile weaponry like arrows. Only until the advent of gunpowder they’re being replaced with lighter armors.

A knight as class and social hereditary firepower however, were deemed obsolete when a disciplined and well trained Swiss pikemen (consisting mostly peasants) virtually destroy them in most combat even when the knights were full plated. But even then the Swiss themselves (mostly on the frontguard) usually wore plate armors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart
Greatsword wielders like Lansknechts (though they will only exist 1-3 centuries later) could smash that armor with the mass of their swords.
No, the Landsknecht existed and was in it’s prime on the mid 15th until early 16th century when plate armors were also at it’s peak and could be easily obtained by an average soldier. 95% of the Landsknecht also fought with pike formation which they adapted from the Swiss. A Greatsword or Zweihander were used by the Landsknecht doppelsoldnel only to break through an enemy pike formation, not to slash armors… Oh and these Landsknechts also likes wearing plate armors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart
Samurais put alot of trust in their blade and techniques, when fighting straight swords, they deflect the direction of the blade and quickly go in for the kill. When fighting another samurai, they have alot of patience in their dueling, standing on their toes for quite a long time while waiting for their opponent to make a mistake.
As also medieval European knights, an Arabian slave-warrior, Turkish janissaries along with Chinese imperial guards back then. Each civilization had their own combat discipline to be proud of. And seriously a sword was only a secondary weapon for a samurai back then, most of the time they fought with pikes, yari, naginata or whatever along with missile weapons like arrows.


For Japanese swordmanship, well couldn’t be helped since this is an anime forum covered with the likes of bleach and now Seiken No Blacksmith. But the Japanese weren’t the only ones who excel in sword martial arts. Example for some excellents European swordmanship could be found here,





As for Cecily, well finally she’s doing something. But the armor is still eh?
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Old 2009-10-25, 12:15   Link #664
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm not so sure that's the problem, here. Good articulated plate shouldn't hamper its wearer. I think it has more to do with the time period and what you're going to face. Armor's no good against powerful firearms. Rapier's no good against armor. (I mean, yeah, you can go for the weak points, but the problem is that your opponent will be moving around and trying to kill you...)
Any form of armor will hamper its wearer, the heavier the armor the more the hampering. Yes, you can design armor to be as least hampering as possible, but it'll still hamper the wearer. Wearing full plate, helmet and all, limits your vision and mobility. You can't make your torso turn the same way, you can't run the same way, heck you can't even hold your weapon the same way depending on what gauntlets you wear (though they do make excellent punching weapons).

Does the plate wearing knight have a direct combat advantage over the low armored rapier fighter? Definitely. The rapier fighter will have to resort to tactics to win. Abusing the knights line of sight, exhausting him, striking at points his armor makes it difficult to retaliate. And not even this can guarantee a win.

It gets even worse if the knight starts bringing in other weapons, like shields and morningstars, which would make the knight virtually unaproachable.

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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Somehow I just knew this whole Samurai/Katana >>>>> Knight/armor would come up sooner or later, but oh well.
Well, it's more a debate on the values of Cecily's bikini armor.

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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
As for Cecily, well finally she’s doing something. But the armor is still eh?
Well, like I said, for a swordswoman wielding a rapier it's not all that bad.
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Old 2009-10-25, 12:27   Link #665
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm not so sure that's the problem, here. Good articulated plate shouldn't hamper its wearer. I think it has more to do with the time period and what you're going to face. Armor's no good against powerful firearms. Rapier's no good against armor. (I mean, yeah, you can go for the weak points, but the problem is that your opponent will be moving around and trying to kill you...)
There are a number of reasons I can see for why there is armor is this way. The cost of supplying full plate for all the village's knight may be require them to keep. Also these Knights are not professionals soldiers but more so the town's guards. They have to chase after criminals and walk patrols daily. They would certainly trade some protection for personal comfort and mobility.
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Old 2009-10-25, 12:53   Link #666
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Looks like we are running a history lesson here. That is interesting!

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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
No, the Landsknecht existed and was in it’s prime on the mid 15th until early 16th century when plate armors were also at it’s peak and could be easily obtained by an average soldier. 95% of the Landsknecht also fought with pike formation which they adapted from the Swiss. A Greatsword or Zweihander were used by the Landsknecht doppelsoldnel only to break through an enemy pike formation, not to slash armors… Oh and these Landsknechts also likes wearing plate armors.
Correct me if I am wrong, but are the Swiss pikemen and Landsknechts mercenaries in the same blade-for-hire outfit?

Quote:
As also medieval European knights, an Arabian slave-warrior, Turkish janissaries along with Chinese imperial guards back then. Each civilization had their own combat discipline to be proud of. And seriously a sword was only a secondary weapon for a samurai back then, most of the time they fought with pikes, yari, naginata or whatever along with missile weapons like arrows.
Traditionally, a Japanese swordsman will carry 2 blades, a shortblade and his Katana. I suppose you can be right to call their sword a 2nd weapon, but in war, I believe it is akin to the CI (counter-insurgency) loadout today : Primary, secondary and sidearm. Spearmen and blade riders carry swords and shortblades too if I am not wrong.

As yes, samurai wear armor : only on duty.

Quote:
For Japanese swordmanship, well couldn’t be helped since this is an anime forum covered with the likes of bleach and now Seiken No Blacksmith. But the Japanese weren’t the only ones who excel in sword martial arts. Example for some excellents European swordmanship could be found here,

OT : This is called stereotype. Unfortunately, without it, we wouldn't enjoy our entertainment. And Japanese media often have colourful stereotypes like tsundere, yandere, megane, loli, YURI, etc.........

From what I see, European swordplay is very simple compared to what little Chinese swordplay I have learnt. It seems that simple one-two steps and sword contacts are due to the larger size of the weapons as compared to their Asian counterparts, which are faster but lack power. The European swordplay on the videos must have been pretty simple, because I don't see them doing spins or taking more than three steps (a huge risk in fighting because every extra step you take when locked in combat decreases your chance of survival) to perform complex maneuvers, including one which passes the sword from one hand to another while spinning to hit a place where your opponent doesn't expect.

However, there is one thing interesting, and that is in the first video which they demonstrate a quick footing change to dodge a swing and return. Also, they have a flexibility to hold onto their blade or perform disarms, probably the weight of the sword gives an opportunity to hold their opponent and take their weapon from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm not so sure that's the problem, here. Good articulated plate shouldn't hamper its wearer. I think it has more to do with the time period and what you're going to face. Armor's no good against powerful firearms. Rapier's no good against armor. (I mean, yeah, you can go for the weak points, but the problem is that your opponent will be moving around and trying to kill you...)
Hmm, but with your speed, you can get close to him faster. If you need a distraction, dodge his blows, sweep your rapier against his helmeted face to scare him then disarm him. If he is stronger, push that thin blade through one of the slots in the helmet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
There are a number of reasons I can see for why there is armor is this way. The cost of supplying full plate for all the village's knight may be require them to keep. Also these Knights are not professionals soldiers but more so the town's guards. They have to chase after criminals and walk patrols daily. They would certainly trade some protection for personal comfort and mobility.
Chase a criminal with that steel stuff around? You nuts? Actually I believe the town guards patrol in chainmail or no armor during low intensity conflicts. And I don't think any straight male soldier would like to wear what Cecily is wearing (imagine that!).

Back to Cecily's armor, I think we can redesign it. She currently wears a half-chestplate and a pauldron on her left shoulder, but not a plateskirt. What do you think she needs other than a codpiece or a different coloured sukumizu under her clothing?
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:28   Link #667
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Chase a criminal with that steel stuff around? You nuts? Actually I believe the town guards patrol in chainmail or no armor during low intensity conflicts. And I don't think any straight male soldier would like to wear what Cecily is wearing (imagine that!).

Back to Cecily's armor, I think we can redesign it. She currently wears a half-chestplate and a pauldron on her left shoulder, but not a plateskirt. What do you think she needs other than a codpiece or a different coloured sukumizu under her clothing?
Well obviously the males have there own variation of the armor...

She might certainly be called to chase a criminal and unless you're a complete weakling steel armor isn't so heavy that you'll be unable to run. It can test your endurance during long patrols and hinder your speed somewhat but to a huge extent. Guards should be fairly physical fit anyway beyond your average citizen. Also there armor is pretty sparse anyway if you can't chase a person with that you shouldn't have applied to such a physically oriented profession anyway.

A codpiece?? Why would she need that? She's not a trap... I personally have no real qualms with her armor.
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:36   Link #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart
but are the Swiss pikemen and Landsknechts mercenaries in the same company?
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart
From what I see, European swordplay is very simple compared to what little Chinese swordplay I have learnt. It seems that simple one-two steps and sword contacts are due to the larger size of the weapons as compared to their Asian counterparts, which are faster but lack power. The European swordplay on the videos must have been pretty simple, because I don't see them doing spins or taking more than three steps (a huge risk in fighting because every extra step you take when locked in combat decreases your chance of survival) to perform complex maneuvers, including one which passes the sword from one hand to another while spinning to hit a place where your opponent doesn't expect.
The moves they’re using are mostly from German school swordmanship such as Ringeck and Liechtenauer. For a general description you can look in wiki,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_..._swordsmanship

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart
Also, they have a flexibility to hold onto their blade or perform disarms, probably the weight of the sword gives an opportunity to hold their opponent and take their weapon from them.
Don’t forget medieval European swords have something most of their counterparts don’t as weapons, a crossguard and a pommel.

And a well trained armoured knight against somebody with well trained lighter close-quarter weapons will be most likely -> Victorious knight, dead foe….

A knights armor is not cumbersome, it was made so it could matched the body’s movement, much more fluid and sturdier than the Japanese yoroi. Which was why the Japanese imitated the European styled armor like helm and breast plate back in the 16th century when they made contact with the Portugese. If you look at the best Japanese armors from the 16th century, all of them resembled the Portugese ones.

And Cecily's boob-plates is.... unique...
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:49   Link #669
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Traditionally, a Japanese swordsman will carry 2 blades, a shortblade and his Katana. I suppose you can be right to call their sword a 2nd weapon, but in war, I believe it is akin to the CI (counter-insurgency) loadout today : Primary, secondary and sidearm. Spearmen and blade riders carry swords and shortblades too if I am not wrong.
Hm, yes? A samurai will carry a lance into combat, and use that till it breaks. Then the long sword. And when that breaks, the short one. (They went through a lot of weapons. Bad steel.)

Quote:
As yes, samurai wear armor : only on duty.
A samurai will wear armor into battle. Because he, you know, doesn't want to die.


Quote:
From what I see, European swordplay is very simple compared to what little Chinese swordplay I have learnt. It seems that simple one-two steps and sword contacts are due to the larger size of the weapons as compared to their Asian counterparts, which are faster but lack power.
I think they went slow because, well, it's just to show us the moves.

Quote:
The European swordplay on the videos must have been pretty simple, because I don't see them doing spins or taking more than three steps (a huge risk in fighting because every extra step you take when locked in combat decreases your chance of survival) to perform complex maneuvers, including one which passes the sword from one hand to another while spinning to hit a place where your opponent doesn't expect.
Are you sure you're not talking about theatrical swordplay?

Quote:
Hmm, but with your speed, you can get close to him faster. If you need a distraction, dodge his blows, sweep your rapier against his helmeted face to scare him then disarm him.
And while you do that, he guts you.

Quote:
If he is stronger, push that thin blade through one of the slots in the helmet.
A moving helmet. And, again, sword in your guts. The problem with this set up is that if he hits you pretty much anywhere, you're dead. You, on the other hand, have a very restricted amount of small targets. If you rush him, he only has to provide a minimum of effort to not get hit there, ignore everything else, and cut your hand off or something.

Frankly, if all you've got is a rapier and you have to face a trained arms-man in full plate, run away. Oh, and be careful: if it's well made and well fitted, that armor isn't going to slow him down as much as you'd think when he runs after you.
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:52   Link #670
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I've changed my original demand of Luke and Cecily kissing or heads are going to roll to:

There better be a love triangle between Luke, Cecily, and Aria or heads are going to roll!
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:58   Link #671
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i highly doubt going to be a Love triangle between those three haha
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:03   Link #672
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Comfort, no. Mobility, yes. A mobile warrior can beat a heavily armored warrior, depending on the equipment. Now that she starts wielding Aria, the advantages wil really come to shine. The rapier is a mobile weapon. Dodge instead of block, thrust instead of slice, when wielding a rapier full-plate becomes a liability. Sure, it will protect you, but it will also make it harder for you to make killing blows.

Now granted, it is far from realistic armor (the two breast bulges kinda ruin the idea of the armor deflecting blows away from the center, for one) but not covering of the stomach does have some practical use considering Cecily's weapon. A full torso covering plate would limit her mobility, and chainmail is heavy. Not just 'oh, I feel a bit of pressure' heavy but heavy heavy. Even a modern day one made from comparatively lighter material weights around 10kg. Having 10kg dragging down your shoulders isn't exactly improving ones mobility.

But yeah, most of it is just because it looks sexy.
Its all skill, you obviously haven't played Soul Calibur 4, *cough* Hilde x Siegfried *cough* she their both fully armored yet have nice mobility. yet still deadly as hell.

Hilde would destroy Cecily even with her Yuri sword. all with one good blow to her exposed stomack.
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:04   Link #673
Manji Midou
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good episode..... l wish for some yuri after this ep.... a shame it won't happen...

and...lulz.... asking a dead guy for his name....
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:15   Link #674
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post

For Japanese swordmanship, well couldn’t be helped since this is an anime forum covered with the likes of bleach and now Seiken No Blacksmith. But the Japanese weren’t the only ones who excel in sword martial arts. Example for some excellents European swordmanship could be found here,





As for Cecily, well finally she’s doing something. But the armor is still eh?
I must say I enjoyed these videos. Cecily could use these tips.
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:17   Link #675
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good episode..... l wish for some yuri after this ep.... a shame it won't happen...

and...lulz.... asking a dead guy for his name....
plenty of other animes with it, why not go watch those if you're lookin for some?
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:35   Link #676
Manji Midou
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plenty of other animes with it, why not go watch those if you're lookin for some?

l already am. l want some in this one too.
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:40   Link #677
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Frankly, if all you've got is a rapier and you have to face a trained arms-man in full plate, run away. Oh, and be careful: if it's well made and well fitted, that armor isn't going to slow him down as much as you'd think when he runs after you.
This. While it is possible to win against a knight wielding only a rapier, I wouldn't stake my bets on it. Preferably I'd have some secondary weapons, ranged ones if possible (a decent crossbow actually has a good chance of getting through plate, but a handful of salt or pepper in the eyeslots could work) but if all I have is a rapier, I'd run. If I really had to kill him, I'd hide, and attack the knight from behind. With limited vision and dampened hearing (seriously, knight helmets are a pain in this regard) that's a good bet. Knock him down, find a weak spot in his armor, and stab it.

It's not a sure way to win, but at least it's a chance. And it's better than facing him up front.

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Its all skill, you obviously haven't played Soul Calibur 4, *cough* Hilde x Siegfried *cough* she their both fully armored yet have nice mobility. yet still deadly as hell.

Hilde would destroy Cecily even with her Yuri sword. all with one good blow to her exposed stomack.
Yeah. But Soul Calibur is hardly the shining example of realistic mobility. Though, I noticed Hilde's armor is riddled with open spots.
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:44   Link #678
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Originally Posted by Manji Midou View Post
l already am. l want some in this one too.
Why does it have to have any? why can't some anime/manga have no yuri jokes in it? imo its getting annoying almost as much as super OP MC's like Naruto and Ichigo.


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post


Yeah. But Soul Calibur is hardly the shining example of realistic mobility. Though, I noticed Hilde's armor is riddled with open spots.
so are Swords that shoot wind
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:49   Link #679
Keroko
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Age: 26
Note that I was only talking about rapiers, not wind-shooting swords.

For that reason, I'm glad Cecily partnered with Aria. Now this series has a bigger chance of not being constant katana worship, but instead a more general sword worship.
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:57   Link #680
Manji Midou
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
Why does it have to have any? why can't some anime/manga have no yuri jokes in it?
imo its getting annoying
No it isn't.
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