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Old 2009-01-23, 02:27   Link #21
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
....ehhhhh, the idea is that if you pay them enough they're less likely to take bribes.

There's also the quality of candidates to consider (though I can't say we get great quality now, that's mostly because of the hellfire they go through that would piss off any but the most egotistical or beatific).

Those ideas on public servants tend to work better at the local level --- at the national level there's simply too many millions $$$ flying about.


Back to the topic: public service is easier to instill in smaller groups of people. Pick up after yourself so someone else won't have to (or you won't have to pick up someone else's crap). Having to take care of public spaces as a group tends to reduce vandalism (g-damn you, I just cleaned that up - you're toast). National public service seems to be be too big for some people to see the self-serving part of the connection. The very oldest version of public service initiative was probably: help out with the tribe or we'll leave you tied to a rock to slow down the predators and serve SOME minimal good.

Quote:
The thought that a person should spend endlessly is part of the problem. It's really not, investment (not speculation, investment) is what goes toward building a better world. The Keynesian argument against savers is easily broken because what is saved can be lent out toward real growth.
Not really related to the topic, but omg I can agree with that bit...
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Old 2009-01-23, 02:42   Link #22
0utf0xZer0
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I really should get into volunteering again. I'm over the ass kicking I got my first semester of university (which is why I stopped), so it should be possible if I can convince myself that my lack of free time is just my epic procrastination skills at work.

I also need to look into what I'd actually do this time around. I may be a Political Science major, but I'm a little too timid to go into activism. Pretty sure there's a local organization that collects older computer equipment and puts it to good use in the service of poor families and organization in need - given my skills with working with hardware, that might be a good place to start.
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Old 2009-01-23, 02:48   Link #23
Thingle
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I really should get into volunteering again. I'm over the ass kicking I got my first semester of university (which is why I stopped), so it should be possible if I can convince myself that my lack of free time is just my epic procrastination skills at work.

I think it's better to get back to school and get your degree first and foremost. Do the volunteering later (if you really want to), focus on your own self at this time.
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Old 2009-01-23, 02:55   Link #24
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
I think it's better to get back to school and get your degree first and foremost. Do the volunteering later (if you really want to), focus on your own self at this time.
Actually, I never dropped out - I survived that first semester ass kicking, if only by the skin of my teeth. Nowadays it's just my propensity for procrastination.

(Irony: this post is me procrastinating at going to bed.)
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:02   Link #25
Vexx
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Odd.... most people I know who got or have gotten degrees seem to do just fine studying, working, participating in activities, and volunteering. It isn't an either or....
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:09   Link #26
Thingle
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Odd.... most people I know who got or have gotten degrees seem to do just fine studying, working, participating in activities, and volunteering. It isn't an either or....
Let's just say that volunteering time eats away study time and leisure time but then again, it's a person's own choice to allocate his time.
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:17   Link #27
Vexx
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Let's just say that volunteering time eats away study time and leisure time but then again, it's a person's own choice to allocate his time.
True enough. How a person budgets and spends their time informs other people about them and their character.
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:23   Link #28
Thingle
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True enough. How a person budgets and spends their time informs other people about them and their character.
Moreover, how he brags about what he does for others. That's more informative.
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:24   Link #29
Vexx
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How is observing a person's activities equivalent to them bragging? Non sequitur.
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:29   Link #30
Thingle
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How is observing a person's activities equivalent to them bragging? Non sequitur.
What I mean is how altruists tell the world what kinds of things they do to make them appear like self-righteous martyrs when in fact, their acts don't elicit people's sympathy to their cause because most aren't as bleeding heart as they are.
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:41   Link #31
Cluelessly
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Oookay, sorry Zaris I finally got it.

I really really dislike the fact that because Obama said all that stuff, somehow now that is the right thing to do. I think if somebody begins to do it solely because they are "inspired" is like faking it. All this talk from people about morals, ethics, the fact that they all need to be justified annoys me to a degree. I see it as a method to the order of the universe. It doesn't need to be justified. If you really uphold those things, another person's words don't matter.

And I think I misconstrued the optimism part. As long as optimism doesn't get in the way of understanding the truth it's fine. What I really saw was related to some recent thinking I've been having about market waves (retraces). Because of optimism, at some point people just shut down and no longer seem to want to consider the truth of the situation. This isn't the right approach...I'd think just having the bitter medicine once would be better for everybody's nerves instead of this anticipation.

Sleepy + your words swirling me around + !math/science/econ = Apologies, I'm pretty fail at things that are outside of my knowledge.

And Vexx because of what you stated about the millions flying around at the national level is why I don't see the point of Congressional wages trying to outbid the banks. Consider Thain's purchase of a commode with legs for $35k. I'm sure they could spare a couple commodes with legs and other gifts to sway officials off of their wages. And there's no way to really see what these guys get as gifts, I'm sure there's a lot of under the table things going around.

Actually I was googling commodes with legs and couldn't figure it out. So the mental image of a toilet that walks around sort of came to mind...I can't imagine anybody balancing on that thing...I shouldn't stray from talking about econ. Okay nevermind, it's toilet with legs that I shouldn't have googled.

Regardless just thinking about politics makes me see red sometimes. I think all those people who are in office must have the wish to control people. But serving in office should be a public service too, I'm not sure how to reconcile this. There are so many smart people I know irl who would never run for office. Those people who really do want to give to society don't want to be politicians, so...I just don't know.

Last edited by Cluelessly; 2009-01-23 at 03:51.
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:42   Link #32
Vexx
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@Thingle: That really doesn't have anything to do with this topic. And I'm not sure you understand the word "altruism" if you're confusing it with "self-righteous martyrs". Two different things. One of the aspects of altruism is enlightened self-interest. If the tribe does better - everyone (including the altruist) has it better.

If you want to be selfish, that's your call. But it sounds a bit like you're disrespecting people who do "help the tribe" to make yourself feel better about it.
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:44   Link #33
Thingle
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If you want to be selfish, that's your call. But it sounds a bit like you're disrespecting people who do "help the tribe" to make yourself feel better about it.
A half-truth. I don't have anything about people who help the tribe as it is their right to do so. What I don't like are those (or more specifically, the attitude) thinking that they're better than the average man just because they do so.
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:53   Link #34
Ascaloth
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....I should go get back that Social Psychology textbook I lent to a friend for the semester temporarily. I'm pretty sure I can dump the entire contents of the Altruism chapter in that book in this thread as reading material for everyone else.
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:55   Link #35
Vexx
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@Thingle: We're not discussing such people, we're discussing public service - what it means and what is it good for. You keep bringing up the idea of people who brag about their service and how you hate that. How about reading the first post and answering the questions?
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:57   Link #36
Thingle
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@Thingle: We're not discussing such people, we're discussing public service - what it means and what is it good for. You keep bringing up the idea of people who brag about their service and how you hate that. How about reading the first post and answering the questions?
Oh well, all "public" service go back to self-gratification anyway. He who doesn't do it because it pleases him is a martyr, plain and simple.
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Old 2009-01-23, 04:08   Link #37
Vexx
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I think you're projecting again....

"enlightened self-interest" does not equal "self-gratification". And even if one doesn't enjoy a task - if they see that it helps the group it isn't "martyrdom" because they're part of the group. "Martyrdom" implies that one will not benefit from the self-sacrifice so it doesn't apply here.
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Old 2009-01-23, 10:35   Link #38
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Oh well, all "public" service go back to self-gratification anyway. He who doesn't do it because it pleases him is a martyr, plain and simple.
The concept of Martyrdom you are talking of is not martyrdom in its puriest form and seems to be some branch off meaning. Doing something one doesn't like as a public service does not label you as a martyr. The concept of liking what you are doing or not has never(from what I've read)played any part in the meaning of martyrdom. A martyr is someone who gives they're life for a cause and is often prominent in religions. In Cristianity and Islam for example a Martyr is considered someone who dies for their religion. Death is prominent in all forms of Martyrdom, but never is the concept of wether you like it or not applied to the overall meaning of what makes a martyr.
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Old 2009-01-23, 11:03   Link #39
sa547
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^
Simply put, one does not have to get himself killed in war in service of his fellow countrymen.

Public service is living self-sacrifice, especially among a handful in government (and a total oxymoron in the country I live in) and non-government organizations, who put their personal interests and egos behind genuinely for the sake of helping their constituents or people in need. These are the people who actually do the right thing and makes one think hard of what he or she could do for society, rather than just talk about it at arm's length.
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Old 2009-01-24, 02:49   Link #40
NightbatŪ
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Considering his paycheck is only $400,000 - he gets paid beans for the tasks and responsibilities.

Average CEO of a Fortune 500 company in the US made $14.2 Million dollars this year.
As has been reported recently, quite a few CEOs and their execs make that much in bonuses alone.
I never said I agree with the idiotic wages CEOs and Managers are forking in but

It's very easy for a high paid government public servant to talk about volunteerwork when he writes off every little thing he did "from the bottom of his heart" on his taxreport

and don't talk about responsibilities, if they screw up they can just resign and walk away
(Hell, Nixon even walked away from prosecution)
while the average joe can spend the rest of his working years cleaning toilets

But that is not the discussion here

My point is only, do the work because you want it, not because some bigshot spouts it off as 'glamourous'

And ask yourself why there are hundreds of thousands public servants being payed for the job when the government wants the taxpayers to do them themselves for free

as for the part on the armed forces
I would hold them in high regard if they were actually here ready to protect my country when **** hits the fan
but right now they are in parts unknown, for dubious reasons, doing things I'm not sure of are actually valued by whoever are there
Do understand I do not put the men and women in service at fault for that
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