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Old 2009-01-26, 19:35   Link #41
Irenicus
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The idea of social classes serving important purposes is nonsense. Xenophobic nonsense. You don't teach people in those classes, you belittle them and make them feel like inferior barbarians.

Moreover, cultures are not static, they are ever changing. The myths of a static culture surviving hundreds of years without any major changes is ridiculous. Even supposedly insular societies like Tokugawa Japan are virtually indistinguishable by the time their eras came to an end compared to when they started out. What is wrong with immigrants bringing new ideals into a culture? Each ideal should be considered on its own merits, not because foreign is bad and native is always good. Culture shock is unavoidable. Few first generation immigrants, if they're not relatively young (like I was when I immigrated to the USA), can truly adapt into a society; hope should be placed in the second generation and more*. The best a government can -- and should -- do is cushion through the process, and make sure societies-within-a-society get to interact, exchange, dilute each other; or as they say, "melting pot."

Japan is xenophobic, that's simple enough to see. It's a little sad to see the government struggles through such ridiculous "measures" trying to avoid the obvious, though. Mind, I don't presume to know everything but I think the younger generation might be far more open than their predecessors. Each generation adopts its own codes and values and stereotypes, whether passed on from past generations, acculturated from other cultures, or from experimentation.

On the other hand, I don't mind classes teaching key aspects of the country's laws and government. The equivalent of the US education system's high school "government" class, practically. Given the modern bureaucratic states, that's actually pretty helpful especially for immigrants from countries with drastically different legal traditions.

*The epic failure of European integration of its colonial and post-colonial immigrants is noted by how many third and fourth generation "immigrants" are still not integrated. It wasn't the first generation-ers that rioted in Paris a few years ago, it was people born and spent their whole lives in the damn country.

Quite frankly, by any legal definition not mired in racism and xenophobia, they're as much citizens as anybody else.
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Old 2009-01-26, 19:42   Link #42
Sinestra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
The idea of social classes serving important purposes is nonsense. Xenophobic nonsense. You don't teach people in those classes, you belittle them and make them feel like inferior barbarians.

Moreover, cultures are not static, they are ever changing. The myths of a static culture surviving hundreds of years without any major changes is ridiculous. Even supposedly insular societies like Tokugawa Japan are virtually indistinguishable by the time their eras came to an end compared to when they started out. What is wrong with immigrants bringing new ideals into a culture? Each ideal should be considered on its own merits, not because foreign is bad and native is always good. Culture shock is unavoidable. Few first generation immigrants, if they're not relatively young (like I was when I immigrated to the USA), can truly adapt into a society; hope should be placed in the second generation and more*. The best a government can -- and should -- do is cushion through the process, and make sure societies-within-a-society get to interact, exchange, dilute each other; or as they say, "melting pot."

Japan is xenophobic, that's simple enough to see. It's a little sad to see the government struggles through such ridiculous "measures" trying to avoid the obvious, though. Mind, I don't presume to know everything but I think the younger generation might be far more open than their predecessors. Each generation adopts its own codes and values and stereotypes, whether passed on from past generations, acculturated from other cultures, or from experimentation.

On the other hand, I don't mind classes teaching key aspects of the country's laws and government. The equivalent of the US education system's high school "government" class, practically. Given the modern bureaucratic states, that's actually pretty helpful especially for immigrants from countries with drastically different legal traditions.

*The epic failure of European integration of its colonial and post-colonial immigrants is noted by how many third and fourth generation "immigrants" are still not integrated. It wasn't the first generation-ers that rioted in Paris a few years ago, it was people born and spent their whole lives in the damn country.

Quite frankly, by any legal definition not mired in racism and xenophobia, they're as much citizens as anybody else.
I think Japan's old baby boomer bureaucrats are fighting the inevitable, just like old bureaucrats here in the US are finding themselves less and less popular. Change happens weather we like it or not and before we know it. I think you are right about the generation gap younger generations dont seem to display much of teh xenophobic traits that there parents and grandparents may display.


I just emailed the article to one of my friends in Japan and her reply was

"Who has time for kids."

WOW
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Old 2009-01-26, 20:52   Link #43
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by windstar!~ View Post
You see, I think a lot of people have this attitude and actually want to go there.
It's more like the Japanese government are the ones who are hindering everyone from doing it by enforcing their strict immigration laws trying to preserve said "pure-race" myth.
Ditto. I know many people who would love to work there. Heck, even I would if and when I get the chance. If immigration laws are loosened, their workforce problem would be alleviated. Fortunately, the younger generation seems more open to their fellow Asians on the whole. Not sure how they feel towards Westerners.

As for immigrants who cannot integrate, they should leave really. Why stay when they find the culture so hard to accept? I just hope the locals realize that not everyone is like that.

What are their immigration controls in detail BTW?
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Old 2009-01-26, 21:53   Link #44
Demongod86
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What's interesting is that despite the Japanese knowing that it'll be the kids that one day take care of their parents, the parents then DON'T have kids. It's like spending all your $ and having nothing for retirement--considering the KIDS are the Japanese social security.

As for failed integration and such:

America is a melting pot. It's got bits and pieces of every culture that got mixed in together. That said, WASPs are the #1 group around. However, the fact that people preserve bits and pieces of their culture despite being assimilated in ways makes for an interesting life in that there are Russian restaurants, Chinese, Japanese, you name it, you can find it in America.

As for Europe's "integration issues"...those..."people"...in question, it seems to me, do not integrate very well anywhere. They want everyone to accommodate them and call anyone that criticizes them racist (despite the fact that they've done everything they could to earn that criticism), and then have the media and the justice system condemn their critics for "hate speech" (even though that's the black hole calling the kettle black). So no, it's absolutely not Europe, unless you're talking about the loss of their spine from the time of the Romans and the Spartans to do away with troublemakers in short order.
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Old 2009-01-26, 22:34   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Also, they have no SS or health insurance program for senior citizens set up so these people are screwed and since the tradition of children taking care of their parents when they are older is slowly but surely dying these people have no where to go compounding the problem even more.
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Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
I am sadden by the traditions of Filial Piety being abandoned by the Japanese. Its a sign of them growing out of tradition and of course losing culture as such, senior citizen crime rate is growing quite quickly because of poverty and loneliness.
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
What's interesting is that despite the Japanese knowing that it'll be the kids that one day take care of their parents, the parents then DON'T have kids. It's like spending all your $ and having nothing for retirement--considering the KIDS are the Japanese social security.
Have to correct a serious factual error in the above opinions — Japan does have a state pension scheme, which is likely to blow up in its face very soon because of the country's ageing population. Of course, despite the funds, it still means that older Japanese depend on their children to support them, but not in the ways implied by the above posters. Japanese kids do not literally have to take out their own money to take care of their parents and grandparents.

Pension crisis looms for Japan
Quote:
Tokyo (Aug 27, 1998): The generation that made Japan a global economic force is today reaping the rewards. Financially they are in good shape. This state looks after them. But will future generations be so lucky?

Japan is facing a demographic time bomb.

- BBC NEWS
Pension reforms in Japan
Quote:
Tokyo (Nov 25, 2005): Japan faces one of the biggest demographic problems of all developed countries, with 28 per cent of its population projected to be over 65 by 2025, compared with 15 per cent in Britain and 12 per cent in the US.

The increase in the elderly population has been caused not only by Japan's exceptional longevity, but also by very limited immigration and a low birth rate.

As a result, both state and company pension schemes are under pressure to reduce benefits and increase contributions... But the hollowing out of the Japanese corporation, with much production switching to other sites in Asia, means that fewer workers are now covered by such schemes.

...Japan was late in establishing a state pension system — it was not put into place until the 1970s, but when it was set up its benefit levels were extremely generous.

...In 2004 the government announced that pension system contributions would rise every year until 2017, when they will stand at 18.3 per cent. Presently, the figure is 13.58 per cent of a person's income. Benefits, on the other hand, will be slashed to 50.2 per cent of income from 59.3 per cent over the same period.

Until people feel secure about the future of the pension system, they are likely to maintain the high rates of saving that are impeding Japanese economic recovery.

- BBC NEWS
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Old 2009-01-26, 22:55   Link #46
Shadow Kira01
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
What's interesting is that despite the Japanese knowing that it'll be the kids that one day take care of their parents, the parents then DON'T have kids. It's like spending all your $ and having nothing for retirement--considering the KIDS are the Japanese social security.
Disagree. When kids grow up, they are responsible for the well-being of his or her own family. More over, not everybody like the idea of having children which contributes to the declining birth rates. There are a variety of reasons.

Considering the current financial crisis which had started quite awhile back, every typical family does need a certain amount of money in order to survive. This also implies that both the husband and the wife should each get a job and work hard. In the Western society, it is traditionally believed that the men are the breadwinners, while the women are the caregivers. However, this may or may not be true anymore in the States. The fact is that if both the husband and the wife is pursuing their careers, who will be responsible for the well-being of the child? In turn, this leads to the question as to whether it is ideal to have a child or not. It is impossible to take care and raise a child while pursuing your own career. More over, is there a reason to have a child out of the blue? However, the final decision usually lies with the women in most cases.

I also do realize that in undeveloped countries, such as the most nations in the continent of Africa views marriage and child-birth fairly differently. Due to the poor medical facilities and also the lack of foods, as well as clean water and clean air; many children tend to die at an early age and that most families tend to consider the idea of having more children as more chances of survival. On the contrary, this doesn't apply to every nation in Africa because South African nations (ones that are formerly colonized by Britain and France) tend to be quite developed and wealthy and so, these issues are almost non-existent.
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Old 2009-01-26, 23:09   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
*The epic failure of European integration of its colonial and post-colonial immigrants is noted by how many third and fourth generation "immigrants" are still not integrated. It wasn't the first generation-ers that rioted in Paris a few years ago, it was people born and spent their whole lives in the damn country.

Quite frankly, by any legal definition not mired in racism and xenophobia, they're as much citizens as anybody else.
From the reading I've done, part of the problem is that France brought these people in as unskilled labour, and did nothing to ensure that their children would have any sort of social mobility. Which actually explains quite a bit - you don't find a lot of unrest in Canadian ethnic neighborhoods, but you don't find abnormally high unemployment either.

I'd also be interested in what separates Mersailles from other French cities, since IIRC it has one of the largest Arab populations in France yet didn't experience any riots in 2005.
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Old 2009-01-27, 00:07   Link #48
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This move by the government is good.

Japan is overpopulated, its cultural rules are very rigid, and the people don't want foreigners coming in anyway. Saying that they should open up their nation when they don't want to is stupid. Why does every single country have to give up its culture just to "modernize?" Japan has a very unique situation and it would suck to see it ruined just so they can keep their population the same. Also, I doubt that many people would want to emigrate from China or Korea anyway.

I realize that Japan has a population issue here. But that's their own fault for not caring about having children, which is a result of their own stupidity. There will be problems as the people age, but only then will people learn to correct themselves.
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Old 2009-01-27, 01:15   Link #49
onehp
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If this continues and the Japanese population becomes non-existant, there will be no more anime.



edit:
found this article on the pricing of education in Japan
http://www.dannychoo.com/adp/eng/165....html#comments

Could it be that the affordability of the education for the kids is a factor in deciding to have kids? You need to pay to educate your children in public schools according to the article, while here in the US, public schools are free

Last edited by onehp; 2009-01-27 at 01:32.
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Old 2009-01-27, 01:58   Link #50
Cluelessly
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Quote:
Tokyo (Nov 25, 2005): Japan faces one of the biggest demographic problems of all developed countries, with 28 per cent of its population projected to be over 65 by 2025, compared with 15 per cent in Britain and 12 per cent in the US.

The increase in the elderly population has been caused not only by Japan's exceptional longevity, but also by very limited immigration and a low birth rate.

As a result, both state and company pension schemes are under pressure to reduce benefits and increase contributions... But the hollowing out of the Japanese corporation, with much production switching to other sites in Asia, means that fewer workers are now covered by such schemes.

...Japan was late in establishing a state pension system — it was not put into place until the 1970s, but when it was set up its benefit levels were extremely generous.

...In 2004 the government announced that pension system contributions would rise every year until 2017, when they will stand at 18.3 per cent. Presently, the figure is 13.58 per cent of a person's income. Benefits, on the other hand, will be slashed to 50.2 per cent of income from 59.3 per cent over the same period.

Until people feel secure about the future of the pension system, they are likely to maintain the high rates of saving that are impeding Japanese economic recovery.
Repeat after me. There is no such thing as a savings glut. There is no such thing as a savings glut. There is no such thing as a savings glut. There is no such thing as a savings glut. There is no such thing as a savings glut. There is no such thing as a savings glut.

There is also no way to "reform" pensions into an efficient system. Sooner or later the population flip will occur worldwide. Barring a complete flip, it will level out. Exponential curves irl cannot stay exponential forever. Pensions are ponzi schemes. What else is a system where old investors are paid by the contribution of new investors? It is all built on the belief that tomorrow will be bigger than today.

I'm not smart enough to thoroughly think out a "fix" without a complete overhaul to the current system, but the problem is not something that will ever be solved by any sort of reform as long as it is based around the premise of inflation.

Actually even if somehow our population could grow exponentially forever, inflation is still not something that is always present even in a perfect world and this problem will be revisited every single time the trend is broken except they wouldn't be able to blame birth rates.

I wish they'd stop looking in this direction for a solution. I don't think pensions are necessarily a bad thing, but at the end of the day economics doesn't work this way.
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Old 2009-01-27, 02:07   Link #51
JOJOS'STAR
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i volunteer to go to Japan to help with this issue
haha! love you Xellos-_^ you just made my day!
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Old 2009-01-27, 02:14   Link #52
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehp View Post
If this continues and the Japanese population becomes non-existant, there will be no more anime.



edit:
found this article on the pricing of education in Japan
http://www.dannychoo.com/adp/eng/165....html#comments

Could it be that the affordability of the education for the kids is a factor in deciding to have kids? You need to pay to educate your children in public schools according to the article, while here in the US, public schools are free
Never mind US, even the ONLY OTHER ASIAN nation with "ageing population" [Singapore, who else?] has a cap on school fees right up to the eqiv. of High School Year 1: SGD 13/mth [ok, this does not include books, but still, never over SGD 75/mth on avg.] So the total is SGD 88/mth... unless you're in a independent/private junior high. Then again, those who go to independent schools are usually covered by scholarship, so it's back to 88.

Which equals: 880/year, since schools operate for only 10 months in Singapore.
'
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Old 2009-01-27, 02:15   Link #53
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by Cluelessly View Post
Pensions are ponzi schemes. What else is a system where old investors are paid by the contribution of new investors? It is all built on the belief that tomorrow will be bigger than today.
You get a cookie for this.
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Old 2009-01-27, 02:16   Link #54
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Woah buddy, don't flame me. It was an old report by Aunty Beeb, so direct your criticisms to her instead.

And there can be such things as a savings glut, especially when interest rates are effectively zero, as they are in Japan. If it weren't for a decade of deflation, all those savings would have been depreciating in value over the years. So, ironically, the more the Japanese saved, the poorer they got in real terms.

There is another misunderstanding that should also be addressed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
The way I'm seeing it is that Japan has got itself into an economic predictament. They're relying too much on their exports, which leads to a huge shift to urbanization, but of course that's only population wise. Empty countryside = bad. Agriculture suffers and as such food gets more expensive, which causes a huge turmoil of things.
The rural flight to urban centres is not the main reason for expensive food products in Japan. The real culprit is excessive government subsidisation of Japanese agriculture, especially for rice farmers, who form a powerful lobby group in the country.

Japan does this partly because it feels a need to be self-sufficient in food, and partly because it wants to preserve rural culture and communities. In effect, it is propping up an inefficient economic sector against foreign competition, which could help to reduce food prices. Japanese consumers end up being the ultimate loser in this scenario. To be fair, however, a substantial sum of those subsidies are funnelled into agricultural research, such as the development of high-quality rice grains that produce higher yields.
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Old 2009-01-27, 02:18   Link #55
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to be serious ... maybe Tiny has a point that..


Japan Needs to give up its "pure race" but not my point is to keep some babymakers.. LOL..
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Old 2009-01-27, 02:19   Link #56
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post

The rural flight to urban centres is not the main reason for expensive food products in Japan. The real culprit is excessive government subsidisation of Japanese agriculture, especially for rice farmers, who form a powerful lobby group in the country.

Japan does this partly because it feels a need to be self-sufficient in food, and partly because it wants to preserve rural communities. In effect, it is propping up an inefficient economic sector against foreign competition, which would help reduce prices. Japanese consumers end up being the ultimate loser in this scenario. To be fair, however, a substantial sum of those subsidies are funnelled into agricultural research, producing high-quality rice grains that produce higher yields.
Well, it ensures that Japanese agricultural products command a higher price... remember the cube melon at Fairprice Finest? The news made it to Japan, since the melons came from Japan.

And, what's the cost of education in Singapore, last I heard, it was SGD 13/mth, and SGD 250/mth for independent/private schools [not incl. books]... how's it now?
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Old 2009-01-27, 02:24   Link #57
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Woah buddy, don't flame me. It was an old report by Aunty Beeb, so direct your criticisms to her instead.

And there can be such things as a savings glut, especially when interest rates are effectively zero, as they are in Japan. If it weren't for a decade of deflation, all those savings would have been depreciating in value over the years. So, ironically, the more the Japanese saved, the poorer they got in real terms.

There is another misunderstanding that should also be addressed:


The rural flight to urban centres is not the main reason for expensive food products in Japan. The real culprit is excessive government subsidisation of Japanese agriculture, especially for rice farmers, who form a powerful lobby group in the country.

Japan does this partly because it feels a need to be self-sufficient in food, and partly because it wants to preserve rural culture and communities. In effect, it is propping up an inefficient economic sector against foreign competition, which could help to reduce food prices. Japanese consumers end up being the ultimate loser in this scenario. To be fair, however, a substantial sum of those subsidies are funnelled into agricultural research, such as the development of high-quality rice grains that produce higher yields.
But if prices go down then everybody in japan is going to buy lots of food and get fat, like here in the US.
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Old 2009-01-27, 02:57   Link #58
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I think its a strategic necessity to be self-sufficient in food production. Sure, get your bananas from the tropics and what not but food that grows well in the country should be. "Buy local" has a lot of compelling reasons associated with it.

But... the topic is population dives in Japan and the band-aids the government is trying rather than real systemic changes in the way corporations, employees, and life in Japan works. Social attitudes will have adjust. Retirement ages will have to rise to mitigate the retirement system issues ... besides if you're healthy why not keep working?
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Old 2009-01-27, 04:12   Link #59
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To keep on topic, what else I have noticed... hmmm, yes, it's an irony for me that a country having a low birth rate problem also has one of the most outrageous (underground) sex-oriented industries and videos east of Amsterdam (and Bangkok to add).
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Old 2009-01-27, 04:12   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Cut-Tongue View Post
Lol was going to say something like this myself.

HOLD ON, JAPAN! I'M ON MY WAY!

/vaults through sunlight, impregnates women left and right
aah that made my day

Japan should make more date shows if people have trouble finding a lover rofl
or make a law to ban all anti conception ha ha ha

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulassassin547 View Post
To keep on topic, what else I have noticed... hmmm, yes, it's an irony for me that a country having a low birth rate problem has one of the most outrageous (underground) sex-oriented industries and videos east of Amsterdam.
I'll correct you on that, that area is near the Asian neighbourhood but they are not linked to each other
the sex shops etc are not owned by Asians at all rofl and you don't see any (perhaps a few if you look around for a long time) Asians posing behind the windows there
I went a lot to the Asian neighbourhood thought eh funny thing about it is you have all these restaurants and hotels and one street away is the sex neighbourhood with their hookers and coffee shops but that neighbourhood has nothing to do with the Asian community that lives a street further the majority there has restaurants/cafe's, Asian supermarkets and souvenir shops
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