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Old 2013-07-27, 19:03   Link #2061
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
I don't see what major difference there is between catering to "otaku" and catering to any other audience, like say, making child shows. It generally boils down to otaku being a questionable audience in moral terms, but I don't see how that isn't a sweeping generalization, or how that necessarily has to bring down the quality of the works made by anyone. A good show stands on its own merits, regardless of the context in which it was produced.
It isn't. Look at Hollywood. You have tons of summer blockbuster super hero/action/etc. movies that are generic and soulless and are as memorable as the time I spent in the bathroom this morning. They produce mind numbing garbage too because all they're concerned about is catering to the lowest common denominator to make money. This happens in anime too, except catering to this audience also carries more specific implications. It's garbage in other audiences, and it's garbage here too. That doesn't excuse anything.

Quote:
@cyth, I also want to know your reasoning for thinking Hyouka, Nichijou and even K-On!! are unsatisfactory. I hope you have at least a compelling argument about the quality of these works.
I think quoting Hyouka with those other two works is demeaning to it.
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Old 2013-07-27, 19:46   Link #2062
Warm Mist
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
It isn't. Look at Hollywood. You have tons of summer blockbuster super hero/action/etc. movies that are generic and soulless and are as memorable as the time I spent in the bathroom this morning. They produce mind numbing garbage too because all they're concerned about is catering to the lowest common denominator to make money. This happens in anime too, except catering to this audience also carries more specific implications. It's garbage in other audiences, and it's garbage here too. That doesn't excuse anything.
That's more because most of the people making these things have little talent. In the case of anime, budget, time and working conditions are also major problems.
You have a Fate/Zero avatar. You should know that catering to a fanbase to make piles of money doesn't detract from a show's quality. If it's well made, it's well made, nothing to do about it.
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think quoting Hyouka with those other two works is demeaning to it.
Hyouka is indeed the best of the three shows, but at least K-On!! has insane merit on its own. I can see an argument against Nichijou for failing as a comedy, because it does, but it's still a very ambitious, multi-faceted work and I enjoyed many aspects of it.
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Old 2013-07-27, 21:08   Link #2063
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what recent Kyoto Animation work would you say exceeded your expectations of what anime can accomplish?
Not exactly recent, but K-On! is pretty much the genre defining "moe SoL" work. Also, pretty major multidemographic appeal. Of course, after success with K-On!, K-On!! was built successfully around the model of K-On!, and Tamako Market less successfully.

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I think quoting Hyouka with those other two works is demeaning to it.
Do explain.
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Old 2013-07-27, 21:17   Link #2064
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
It isn't. Look at Hollywood. You have tons of summer blockbuster super hero/action/etc. movies that are generic and soulless and are as memorable as the time I spent in the bathroom this morning.
This is applicable to everything. Most of everything, from every medium, is bad.
KyoAni's works stand out from the crowd because, from a production standpoint, they're half a decade ahead of everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
A good show stands on its own merits, regardless of the context in which it was produced.
But Mist, shows for otaku contain moe, which is a thing that is objectively bad, according to a writer who only used ridiculously popular works as examples for his thesis, which actually stated next to nothing about the quality of shows produced ten years ago when he wrote it, and merely served as an explanation for how the character archetypes in those shows came to be!
Why can't the anime industry create things that I like, such as [insert nostalgic Toonami anime here]?! Why can't Japanese people at least try to appeal to international tastes?! Anime is dead.
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Old 2013-07-28, 00:02   Link #2065
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
That's more because most of the people making these things have little talent. In the case of anime, budget, time and working conditions are also major problems.
You have a Fate/Zero avatar. You should know that catering to a fanbase to make piles of money doesn't detract from a show's quality. If it's well made, it's well made, nothing to do about it.
Don't forget directing and scripting, often the two most important details in any production IMO. Unfortunately, scripting seems to be at times Kyoani's weakest areas of expertise since their original titles have abhorrent writing. They do much better on adaptions, but most of the source material they adapt is also pretty bad. Instead of trying to turn dirt into gold, I'd like to see them try to turn silver into gold sometimes.

Quote:
Hyouka is indeed the best of the three shows, but at least K-On!! has insane merit on its own. I can see an argument against Nichijou for failing as a comedy, because it does, but it's still a very ambitious, multi-faceted work and I enjoyed many aspects of it.
K-ON! in my view has no merit. It is false advertising of a music show that is more about moe antics, that are not actually funny or cute in any way. I don't hate moe shows. I can like something like Working! for example. This just isn't a good example of a moe show IMO, and does quite an injustice to the idea of music.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This is applicable to everything. Most of everything, from every medium, is bad.
KyoAni's works stand out from the crowd because, from a production standpoint, they're half a decade ahead of everyone else.
I used Hollywood superhero movies as an example because they also have some of the most cutting edge special effects. It's ultimately a hollow shell though. Sure, it can't hurt, but it cannot account for a poorly written or directed story.
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Old 2013-07-28, 02:11   Link #2066
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Unfortunately, scripting seems to be at times Kyoani's weakest areas of expertise since their original titles have abhorrent writing. They do much better on adaptions, but most of the source material they adapt is also pretty bad.
Opinions.
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I don't hate moe shows. I can like something like Working! for example.
Not that I buy into the idea of """"moe shows"""" to begin with, but Working is not at all what people usually mean when they use that term. It isn't anything like K-On or Azumanga or what have you.
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I used Hollywood superhero movies as an example because they also have some of the most cutting edge special effects. It's ultimately a hollow shell though. Sure, it can't hurt, but it cannot account for a poorly written or directed story.
So KyoAni anime are the equivalent of soulless Hollywood blockbusters? Wow. That is honestly the first time I've heard that comparison.
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Old 2013-07-28, 02:38   Link #2067
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Opinions.
Sorry, I didn't realize it was one. Thanks for enlightening me that my opinion is in fact an opinion. My entire world is now collapsing because I just realized this fact. Oh wait, nvm.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Not that I buy into the idea of """"moe shows"""" to begin with, but Working is not at all what people usually mean when they use that term. It isn't anything like K-On or Azumanga or what have you.
Moe is a big factor in it. If you'd prefer me to list all girls casts, I would say even this season's Love Lab does a better job than K-ON!

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So KyoAni anime are the equivalent of soulless Hollywood blockbusters? Wow. That is honestly the first time I've heard that comparison.
That wasn't my point, but OK.
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Old 2013-07-28, 03:17   Link #2068
cyth
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Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
@cyth, I also want to know your reasoning for thinking Hyouka, Nichijou and even K-On!! are unsatisfactory. I hope you have at least a compelling argument about the quality of these works.
It's great that so many people regard Hyouka as the best to come out of KyoAni. Personally I dropped it after two episodes because I found it to be extremely boring, but if people whose opinion I respect recognize that as the best KyoAni has to offer, then so be it. I just wish it weren't another high school, spring of youth story slash romance.

Same thing with Nichijou. I could appreciate the high-quality animation, but the bizarro humor was lost on me. I should note here that I never watch anime solely for animation, like some of you sakuga geeks do. Sakuga has the same standing to me as the story or character execution, or other technical aspects of a work.

As for K-ON* ... When you say "K-On!! has insane merit on its own," the statement tries to insert that while K-ON! was a good slice-of-life show, K-ON!! was even better than that, conveniently seting up the franchise as the best the kuuki-kei genre can offer, when in reality it's only a sentiment of a fan who thinks the second series was better than the first. I also disagree with the premise, as there have been works before K-ON! that did exactly the same. One might say KyoAni was drawing from works such as Ichigo Mashimaro or Gakuen Utopia Manabi Straight! to mold its current formula. To be honest, I don't see much difference between Manabi or K-ON!, except that the latter has taken a page out of AKB48's manual. The "has merit" part is just the KyoAni animation power house moving into the cute girls doing cute things territory. There was nothing new or exciting about it at the time, except that KyoAni is really good at animating guitars.

I think the general sentiment that's been expressed many times in this thread is that we all want to see KyoAni top the best anime out there, as it has all the potential to do that, but we disagree on the approach it's taking right now. I'm not going to insult them with constructive criticism, I'm just going to reject what they dish out. Hopefully they decide to take my money with some future show that's not going to be about high school, spring of youth bullshit or their usual running gags.
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Old 2013-07-28, 03:19   Link #2069
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@Kaisos Erranon:

I find it very cute that you dismiss statements that you disagree with as "opinion" but then try to package your own statements as "objective". Not just in this Kyoto Animation thread but in other threads as well, such as the Nagi no Asu Kara one where you splurted this objectivity nonsense as well. What is objective anyway? Majority opinion? Well, the majority of Kyoto Animation series have split reactions so it's damn hard to find objectivity in that. Sales? Then Uta no Prince Sama S2 is apparently the best objective anime of this year in the TV side of things with its whopping 60k+ sales for its first volume. Yes, it even exceeded even Attack on Titan. Ratings? Then Gintama is considered the best according to MAL last time I checked.

See what the problem with all this objectivity preaching you're trying to preach? Everything is a damn opinion, so stop trying to make your own sound objective whilst dismissing as others as opinion. My opinion is as valid as Reckoner's as is valid as Warm Mist's as is yours. So your opinion that everything Kyoto Animation is gold and that they are "half a decade" in front of other studios is just that, an opinion.

My thoughts on Kyoani? Great visuals, great male characters most of the time, but lacking in their female characters (ever since Key adaptation days to now), severely lacking in genre and setting diversity (Only FMP and Munto "non" slice of life and I think all but one or two were set in high school). They also implement a certain type of high school antic comedy, which although is funny at times, gets very tiresome and repetitive eventually. Also their character design aesthetic tend to blow most of the time, but I'll give them a bit of slack here since a significant number of series use that A-1 Pictures Kannagi/Sora no Woto look, which Kyoani didn't "invent" in the first place when adapting K-on.
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Old 2013-07-28, 03:59   Link #2070
Kaisos Erranon
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If you're phrasing your opinions as though they have the same weight as facts, you're doing it wrong.
Just because you hate something doesn't make it bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Moe is a big factor in it.
How much "moe" does a show have to have before it is considered a "moe show"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
To be honest, I don't see much difference between Manabi or K-ON!, except that the latter has taken a page out of AKB48's manual.
...This statement makes absolutely no sense, I'm sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Hopefully they decide to take my money with some future show that's not going to be about high school, spring of youth bullshit or their usual running gags.
So I'm assuming you don't pay attention to more recent anime at all then?
You know, while Free is set in a high school, it has almost nothing to do with youth in springtime or "the usual running gags", whatever that means, and is quite a good show besides. But of course you're not interested in it, because it's set in a high school, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
What is objective anyway?
Animation quality, art quality, visual detail, overall production quality. Things that KyoAni typically excels at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
So your opinion that everything Kyoto Animation is gold and that they are "half a decade" in front of other studios is just that, an opinion.
No, it's a fact that their productions really are that much better than just about anyone else's. Kanon 2006 still looks better than many anime made today (accounting for the fact that it's SD, of course).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Also their character design aesthetic tend to blow most of the time, but I'll give them a bit of slack here since a significant number of series use that A-1 Pictures Kannagi/Sora no Woto look, which Kyoani didn't "invent" in the first place when adapting K-on.
"A-1 Pictures look"? Kannagi and Sora no Woto have absolutely no staff in common. What you seem to be identifying is Sora no Woto's character designer (he also worked on Magi and Kokoro Connect) who is a big fan of the Lucky Star and K-On character designer, Yukiko Horiguchi, and deliberately imitates her work. Kannagi, on the other hand, has a lot of former KyoAni staff, being more or less one of Studio Ordet's first works, despite being under the A-1 Pictures brand.
So yes, KyoAni did "invent" that "style".
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Old 2013-07-28, 04:09   Link #2071
cyth
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...This statement makes absolutely no sense, I'm sorry.
Really? Then you shouldn't spend so much time obsessing over animation and perhaps take a look at the content of the works you're supposedly a fan of.
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So I'm assuming you don't pay attention to more recent anime at all then?
You either make a lot of assumptions or my sarcasm meter is severely broken.
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Old 2013-07-28, 04:11   Link #2072
Demi.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post

No, it's a fact that their productions really are that much better than just about anyone else's. Kanon 2006 still looks better than many anime made today (accounting for the fact that it's SD, of course).
It's interesting to note that Kanon 2006 is better animated than most of the stuff Kyoani does in the present. K-ON, Nichijou, Tamako Market...I'm sorry, but these shows are not impressive enough in production value or even aesthetic value to be up to par with some of the more impressive looking anime of the modern era, much less a decade ahead of them. Hyouka is the only one I'll give credit for. In a sense, Kyoani's quality has been degrading, not improving. So perhaps other studios have finally caught up to them, since they haven't improved over the last decade.
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Old 2013-07-28, 04:14   Link #2073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Animation quality, art quality, visual detail, overall production quality. Things that KyoAni typically excels at.
No, that's just your opinion, which is something I happen to largely agree with at least on the visual front minus the character designs.

Quote:
No, it's a fact that their productions really are that much better than just about anyone else's. Kanon 2006 still looks better than many anime made today (accounting for the fact that it's SD, of course).
There you splurting your opinion as objective fact, when it's really an opinion. An absurd opinion I might add, but whatever, I'm not going to challenge it other than the notion that it's an opinion not fact.

Quote:
A-1 Pictures look"? Kannagi and Sora no Woto have absolutely no staff in common. What you seem to be identifying is Sora no Woto's character designer (he also worked on Magi and Kokoro Connect) who is a big fan of the Lucky Star and K-On character designer, Yukiko Horiguchi, and deliberately imitates her work. Kannagi, on the other hand, has a lot of former KyoAni staff, being more or less one of Studio Ordet's first works, despite being under the A-1 Pictures brand.
So yes, KyoAni did "invent" that "style".
No they didn't. Go check your facts. Remember the rage that Sora no Woto caused because its characters looked like K-on characters, when in fact all it was doing was using Kannagi designs? Both Kannagi and Sora no Woto was also by A-1 Pictures (ordet did assist in Kannagi though) . Ordet as a studio was made because Yakaman (you know the guy that wanted to "save anime") left Kyoto Animation after Haruhi.


Why are you still continuing trying to defend your opinions as fact, whilst any statements you disagree with as opinion. It's contradictory and stupid.
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Old 2013-07-28, 04:22   Link #2074
Ithekro
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What I recall is that when K-On was coming, we still didn't know what studio was making it. We were guessing A-1 from the designs. Then people started complaining that Haruhi was looking too much like K-On even though the logical art process was Haruhi - Lucky Star - Kannagi - K-On - Haruhi, with maybe some KEY derived elements from Kanon and CLANNAD thrown in.
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Old 2013-07-28, 05:03   Link #2075
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
No they didn't. Go check your facts. Remember the rage that Sora no Woto caused because its characters looked like K-on characters, when in fact all it was doing was using Kannagi designs? Both Kannagi and Sora no Woto was also by A-1 Pictures (ordet did assist in Kannagi though) . Ordet as a studio was made because Yakaman (you know the guy that wanted to "save anime") left Kyoto Animation after Haruhi.
Da fuc is this?

People suspecting that K-ON! might've been another Ordet project because the character designs was kinda similar to Kannagi's, I would say Mio's design mostly. But as shown in the show itself it wasn't really all "that" similar. Sora no Woto's design clearly leans more into the K-ON camp than kannagi's, not even debatable.

And Kannagi's character design was done by Ordet not A-1, Ordet has the creative process while A-1 provided the grunt work... not to mention it was faithful to the manga designs anyway. A-1 copied K-ON for Sora no Woto, much to the lamentation of Mel Kishida fans.

You don't look @ the Kannagi manga and go, wow these look similar to K-ON's characters, whereas the K-on/SnW comparisons are numerous, and heck having Kanata act like Yui while looking like her obviously didn't fucking help.
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Old 2013-07-28, 05:04   Link #2076
Kaisos Erranon
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Really? Then you shouldn't spend so much time obsessing over animation and perhaps take a look at the content of the works you're supposedly a fan of.
What in the goddamn hell does K-On have to do with AKB48? Hell, it's not even that similar to Manabi Straight, aside from its superficial aspects.
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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
There you splurting your opinion as objective fact, when it's really an opinion. An absurd opinion I might add, but whatever, I'm not going to challenge it other than the notion that it's an opinion not fact.
Production quality is, unfortunately, a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
No they didn't. Go check your facts. Remember the rage that Sora no Woto caused because its characters looked like K-on characters, when in fact all it was doing was using Kannagi designs?
Kannagi's character designer was Kakeru Mima. Sora no Woto's character designer was Toshifumi Akai, who is a noted fan of Horiguchi.
Akai was an animation director on Kannagi, but he wasn't the character designer. The two productions both being by A-1 (if indeed you can call A-1 a proper studio) has nothing to do with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Ordet as a studio was made because Yakaman (you know the guy that wanted to "save anime") left Kyoto Animation after Haruhi.
He left after Lucky Star, actually (which was Horiguchi's first work for KyoAni as a character designer). He also never, to my memory, claimed that he was going to "save anime", that's something fans came up with.
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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Why are you still continuing trying to defend your opinions as fact, whilst any statements you disagree with as opinion. It's contradictory and stupid.
The things I say are, unless otherwise delineated, always fact or based in fact.
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Old 2013-07-28, 05:09   Link #2077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Production quality is, unfortunately, a fact.
This is true: the first season of K-On! was cheap as heck compared to the second one. I've recently rewatched the show when the movie came out and the difference is night and day. Sure it was KyoAni but it was pretty much done on a shoestring budget. There are some scenes in particular where the show almost goes into super deformed mode. I remember one in particular in the first episode I believe with Yui running down the stairs where the term Moe-blob almost becomes literal.

Oh and btw I'll fully admit it: I liked K-On as a fan of Iyashikei and find it to be a rather good example of the genre. It's no Aria but it's pretty good on it's own.
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Old 2013-07-28, 05:33   Link #2078
cyth
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The things I say are, unless otherwise delineated, always fact or based in fact.
This guy, I tell you ... Now I feel dirty.
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Old 2013-07-28, 05:36   Link #2079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Production quality is, unfortunately, a fact.
Quote:
The things I say are, unless otherwise delineated, always fact or based in fact.
This is getting to hilarious status on how you think everything you say is fact unless you note it yourself. I am now convinced you are trolling.
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Old 2013-07-28, 05:38   Link #2080
cyth
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It would be a sad state of affairs if he wasn't. The problem with this is that he actually put up some nice facts and outlined a valid thought process, but now he just invalidated every last bit of it. It's a fucking shame, really.
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