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Old 2013-12-30, 13:24   Link #2401
AmeNoJaku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all_flying View Post
Every.single.time....
.....
.....
.... ever!

Seems people don't really understand how this industry actually works. Just look at Hyouka. Seriously!
How this industry works has nothing to do with what I was writing about. The last anime where the studio tried something ambitious was the original Haruhi. Since then it entered a stagnant phase adapting popular sources, but without adding anything to them. And for the past two years, it stopped doing even that using "their own" sources in order to increase their profits.

Yes, these are solid financial decisions, but I don't watch anime because they are profitable or accessible, but I treat them like art, not fast food.
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Old 2013-12-30, 13:36   Link #2402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
How this industry works has nothing to do with what I was writing about. The last anime where the studio tried something ambitious was the original Haruhi. Since then it entered a stagnant phase adapting popular sources, but without adding anything to them. And for the past two years, it stopped doing even that using "their own" sources in order to increase their profits.
Except those based on Key VN, every other anime series after Haruhi are adaptations of stories that were basically unknown to the masses, K-on! included. In fact, despite they are still in their moe comfort zone, the major difference is that the source materials were absolutely not sure sales, unlike Haruhi and Key series.

Their biggest success, K-on!, is arguably a completely unexpected result due to various circumstances, and hardly because of the source material.
Quote:
Yes, these are solid financial decisions, but I don't watch anime because they are profitable or accessible, but I treat them like art, not fast food.
They are, in the end, product subject to offer and demands, and more importantly: studio are simply hired by producer commitee.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2013-12-30 at 13:52.
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Old 2013-12-30, 13:56   Link #2403
AmeNoJaku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Except those based on Key VN, every other anime series after Haruhi are adaptations of stories that were basically unknown to the masses, K-on! included. In fact, besides they are still in their moe comfort zone, the major difference is that the source materials were absolutely not sure sales, unlike Haruhi and Key series.

Their biggest success, K-on!, is arguably a completely unexpected result due to various circumstances, and hardly because of the source material.
And K-On was probably the turning point for the studio to break away with kadokawa, realizing that however non-existant plot and story is, they can still sell with cute teenagers doing nothing of interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
They are, in the end, product subject to offer and demands, and more importantly: studio are simply hired by producer commitee.
This studio has a lot of control over what they decide to animate now. And don't forget that most big studios are part of the production committees.
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Old 2013-12-30, 14:05   Link #2404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
And K-On was probably the turning point for the studio to break away with kadokawa, realizing that however non-existant plot and story is, they can still sell with cute teenagers doing nothing of interest.
Wrong. They were still under the "rule" of Kadokawa. Nichijou and Hyouka are obvious example of that.
The turning point was definitely Chuunibyou, followed by Tamako Market.

And from there, you cannot claim that they "know they can sell as long as it is cute", as Chuunibyou had a fine result, but Tamako Market was a financial bomb compared to other series. Let's not talk about Nichijou which was actually worse than FMP:TSR in term of sales (or slightly better, I don't remember).
OTOH, Free proved that their attempts to expand their horizons paid off as well, while still with a production choice that is within their grasp due to the LN label.

It is a given that KyoAni staff has their habits and methods for specific aspects of an anime series (one of them being cute stuff), but it is quite obvious to me that the presentation itself is overwhelming people for no good reason, considering the major genre shift rotation they followed over the last few years: Romance-comedy / slife of life / sport series aimed for women / fantasy.
Quote:
This studio has a lot of control over what they decide to animate now. And don't forget that most big studios are part of the production committees.
Control would mean they could produce a complete original series on their own without much restraint, on a regular basis (and I'm still unsure how "completely original" Tamako Market was. I should check again ultimatemegax post).

And until I missed the memo, I don't remember that most big studios could have such privileges. I'm curious of that list.
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Old 2013-12-30, 14:27   Link #2405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
It is a given that KyoAni staff has their habits and methods for specific aspects of an anime series (one of them being cute stuff), but it is quite obvious to me that the presentation itself is overwhelming people for no good reason, considering the major genre shift rotation they followed over the last few years: Romance-comedy / slife of life / sport series aimed for women / fantasy.
Control would mean they could produce a complete original series on their own without much restraint, on a regular basis (and I'm still unsure how "completely original" Tamako Market was. I should check again ultimatemegax post).

And until I missed the memo, I don't remember that most big studios could have such privileges. I'm curious of that list.
Tamako Market is fully original. The "original creator" is listed as Kyoto Animation. It's Yamada/Yoshida's ideas turned into a series.

There's two misconceptions going on with "original IPs." Other studios have created original IPs where they get a royalty payment from everything from keychains to video discs, see P.A. Works' trio (and now quartet) of works that are highly praised. The difference between P.A. Works/Sunrise/Shaft/etc and KyoAni is that KyoAni has been contributing more to their newer line-up than the former does. Yes, Madoka earns a lot of money, but Shaft gets 1/4th the royalty payments (or less depending how the Magical Quartet was structured) and is 6th of 6 companies in the production committee, meaning they only get a sliver of the proceeds after Aniplex, Houbunsha, Hakuhodo DY Media Partners, Nitroplus, and Movic get their shares. On the other hand, the committees for CTFK works go:
Kyoto Animation
Pony Canyon
Lantis - Absent for T
TBS/Asahi Broadcasting (for F only)

Only four studios led production committees (Sunrise, Toei, Gonzo) and no other studio funded the most of any member on every single production on the year. There's no other studio doing anything like this; not even Toei/Sunrise do it. It's on a whole different level.
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Old 2013-12-30, 14:29   Link #2406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Wrong. They were still under the "rule" of Kadokawa. Nichijou and Hyouka are obvious example of that.
The turning point was definitely Chuunibyou, followed by Tamako Market.

And from there, you cannot claim that they "know they can sell as long as it is cute", as Chuunibyou had a fine result, but Tamako Market was a financial bomb compared to other series. Let's not talk about Nichijou which was actually worse than FMP:TSR in term of sales (or slightly better, I don't remember).
OTOH, Free proved that their attempts to expand their horizons paid off as well, while still with a production choice that is within their grasp due to the LN label.

It is a given that KyoAni staff has their habits and methods for specific aspects of an anime series (one of them being cute stuff), but it is quite obvious to me that the presentation itself is overwhelming people for no good reason, considering the major genre shift rotation they followed over the last few years: Romance-comedy / slife of life / sport series aimed for women / fantasy.
Control would mean they could produce a complete original series on their own without much restraint, on a regular basis (and I'm still unsure how "completely original" Tamako Market was. I should check again ultimatemegax post).
Changes such as this can not happen overnight. From the point they realize that they are better of animating only their own material to actually realizing it, there are a lot of intermediate steps. Chuunibyou was the first massively successful anime of that period. They are new to this so they will make a lot of mistakes in the process and try different approaches until they stabilizes.

Nevertheless, my point was (and still is) that the KyoAni of 2002-06, 2007-11, and 2012+ have very little to do with each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And until I missed the memo, I don't remember that most big studios could have such privileges. I'm curious of that list.
for Hyoka
chara-ani.com
Kadokawa Shoten
Kamiyama High School Classical OB Department
Kyoto Animation
Lantis
The Klockworx Co., Ltd.

for Nichijou
Kadokawa Pictures
Kadokawa Shoten
Kyoto Animation
Lantis
MOVIC
Shinonome Lab
The Klockworx Co., Ltd.

for K-On!!
Kyoto Animation
MOVIC
Pony Canyon
TBS

for the Haruhi remake
Kadokawa Pictures
Kadokawa Shoten
Kyoto Animation
Lantis
SOS Dan
The Klockworx Co., Ltd.

Need more?
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Old 2013-12-30, 14:46   Link #2407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
for Hyoka
chara-ani.com
Kadokawa Shoten
Kamiyama High School Classical OB Department
Kyoto Animation
Lantis
The Klockworx Co., Ltd.

for Nichijou
Kadokawa Pictures
Kadokawa Shoten
Kyoto Animation
Lantis
MOVIC
Shinonome Lab
The Klockworx Co., Ltd.

for K-On!!
Kyoto Animation
MOVIC
Pony Canyon
TBS

for the Haruhi remake
Kadokawa Pictures
Kadokawa Shoten
Kyoto Animation
Lantis
SOS Dan
The Klockworx Co., Ltd.

Need more?
ANN's database is poor for looking up production committee members due to alphabetizing members instead of putting them in proper funding order as well as including the name of the committee seperately. Here's the real set. (Also I laugh at including chara-ani for Hyouka. Someone's trolling the encyclopedia.)
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Old 2013-12-30, 14:47   Link #2408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
Changes such as this can not happen overnight. From the point they realize that they are better of animating only their own material to actually realizing it, there are a lot of intermediate steps. Chuunibyou was the first massively successful anime of that period. They are new to this so they will make a lot of mistakes in the process and try different approaches until they stabilizes.

Nevertheless, my point was (and still is) that the KyoAni of 2002-06, 2007-11, and 2012+ have very little to do with each other.
Which goes back to the initial argument: you say that "realizing cute stuff alone is enough, they can sell whatever they want as long it is theirs hence they decided to go that way".
Then, why did they produce Free and Kyoukai no Kanata? The former is a complete antithesis to such assertion, while the latter, despite presenting moe elements, isn't anything centred to that unlike Tamako Market.

The choice of adaptations is obviously different from before, but imho, KyoAni staff didn't really change their mindset and their habits.
Quote:
...
Need more?
You stated "most big studios", but you only listed KyoAni series that they were part of the production values. You didn't prove your assertion at all, expect that KyoAni has a part of the production commitee which was a given from the get go and I didn't deny that.

Suffice to say, the point didn't change that much: we know that since chuunibyou, they became the major actor in the production commitee. Prior that, they were basically for hire.
In both cases, they are still aiming for profits, especially considering their current state due to their new position. So it is still a matter of business either way, so expecting work of art is quite demanding considering the anime industry as of now.
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Old 2013-12-30, 14:50   Link #2409
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Speaking of Haruhi...has anyone found out yet who is animating the upcoming Disapperance of Nagato Yuki-chan series?
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Old 2013-12-30, 14:53   Link #2410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Speaking of Haruhi...has anyone found out yet who is animating the upcoming Disapperance of Nagato Yuki-chan series?
Nothing has been publicly revealed about the project outside of it being animated.
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Old 2013-12-30, 15:02   Link #2411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Which goes back to the initial argument: you say that "realizing cute stuff alone is enough, they can sell whatever they want as long it is theirs hence they decided to go that way".
Then, why did they produce Free and Kyoukai no Kanata? The former is a complete antithesis to such assertion, while the latter, despite presenting moe elements, isn't anything centred to that unlike Tamako Market.

The choice of adaptations is obviously different from before, but imho, KyoAni staff didn't really change their mindset and their habits.
It's not, Free! is much of cute youngsters doing cute things, that normally no one would care about, as any other anime they have recently produced. Kyoukai no Kanata isn't all that different from that approach too. Now if you want to go into details about each, of course it's not a black-and-white situation, some anime are less dependent on the appeal of their moe-blobs, while others more. But the bottom-line is that all of them are dependant to a greater extent then the average late night show, and along with overanimation, and redrawn/'shpped backgrounds are defining of the studio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
You stated "most big studios", but you only listed KyoAni series that they were part of the production values. You didn't prove your assertion at all, expect that KyoAni has a part of the production commitee which was a given from the get go and I didn't deny that.

And suffice to say, you can see with that list that the production commitee is each time backed up by at least one very large company. So immediately thinking they have a major control about the production is far fetched.
for Gundam Seed Destiny:
Mainichi Broadcasting System
Sunrise

for Monogatari Series:
Aniplex
Kodansha
SHAFT

for Hagane no Renkinjutsushi:
Aniplex
BONES
Mainichi Broadcasting System
Square Enix

for Uta no Prince:
A-1 Pictures
Broccoli
Dwango
MOVIC
Showgate
Starchild Records
Uta☆Puri Production Partners

More?

Now look, if the credits don't convince you, you can consider how each studio ends up animating similar genres and troupes. Is it only because they are good at it, so the producers send to them similar material and they slavishly accept or it works both ways, and studios are able to ask and in many cases choose what to work on. I didn't want to imply that they have absolute control (like KyoAni is attempting), but that they have a big say on what they will work on, and how they will animate and direct the end result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
ANN's database is poor for looking up production committee members due to alphabetizing members instead of putting them in proper funding order as well as including the name of the committee seperately. Here's the real set. (Also I laugh at including chara-ani for Hyouka. Someone's trolling the encyclopedia.)
It's the quickest, and gives the general idea. Otherwise I agree.
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Old 2013-12-30, 15:16   Link #2412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
for Gundam Seed Destiny:
Mainichi Broadcasting System
Sunrise

for Monogatari Series:
Aniplex
Kodansha
SHAFT

for Hagane no Renkinjutsushi:
Aniplex
BONES
Mainichi Broadcasting System
Square Enix

for Uta no Prince:
A-1 Pictures
Broccoli
Dwango
MOVIC
Showgate
Starchild Records
Uta☆Puri Production Partners

More?
Please stop using ANN's alphabetical lists!
SEED Destiny was indeed:
MBS
Sunrise
However, this was mostly funded by MBS as it was only shown on their station at 18:00 on Saturdays. Misleading to say Sunrise contributed a lot to the project.

Monogatari Series:
Aniplex
Kodansha
Shaft
As seen by my Madoka example above, Shaft isn't known for financing a lot of their productions. They'll get a small sliver of revenue.

Hagane no Renkinjutsushi (original):
Mainichi Broadcasting System
Aniplex
Bones
As mentioned above, this aired in the MBS 18:00 Saturday slot, indicative of MBS paying most of the costs. Aniplex picked up a lot, and Bones gave some to the project.

Brotherhood:
Aniplex
Square Enix
Bones
MBS (listed outside)
So Bones is low company on the totem pole again to Aniplex and SE. MBS contributes a lot due to being listed outside (equal or less than the committee itself) due to running it at 17:00 on Saturdays.

Uta no Prince:
King Records
Broccoli
A-1 Pictures
Dwango
MOVIC
Showgate
Finally someone not listed at the bottom. A-1 likely got a good chunk of money from the series, but not as much as King/Brocoli did. Still not listed at the top like KyoAni/Sunrise/Toei/Gonzo though.

Here's a little bit of help. I went through all the late night stuff that gets tracked by anime fans in Japan from 2013 and listed out the production committees in actual order, not the alphabetical nonsense ANN uses, which doesn't tell the real funding situation.
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Old 2013-12-30, 15:22   Link #2413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
It's not, Free! is much of cute youngsters doing cute things, that normally no one would care about, as any other anime they have recently produced. Kyoukai no Kanata isn't all that different from that approach too. Now if you want to go into details about each, of course it's not a black-and-white situation, some anime are less dependent on the appeal of their moe-blobs, while others more. But the bottom-line is that all of them are dependant to a greater extent then the average late night show, and along with overanimation, and redrawn/'shpped backgrounds are defining of the studio.
You are still stuck with the presensation without actually giving evidence that every series they have done post-chuunibyou follow every single same trend.
It isn't like presentation similarities are unheard of (like how Sunrise use the same kind of camera pan for projectiles etc, regardless if it is a gundam series or not. Same can be said for certain deaths in a given series), but I certainly believe that being stuck with it is just ignoring completely the contrast between other series done so far.
Quote:
More?

Now look, if the credits don't convince you, you can consider how each studio ends up animating similar genres and troupes. Is it only because they are good at it, so the producers send to them similar material and they slavishly accept or it works both ways, and studios are able to ask and in many cases choose what to work on. I didn't want to imply that they have absolute control (like KyoAni is attempting), but that they have a big say on what they will work on, and how they will animate and direct the end result.
Ultimatemegax already mentioned the issue of the list.

As for the point brought here: you really have to think about how every anime production isn't always the same.
While you have studio like Shaft that impose their own messy schedule, I see little evidence for others that have such liberty, whereas they work on like clockwork, even to the point of outsourcing.
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Old 2013-12-30, 15:41   Link #2414
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@ultimatemegax: I agree that in most cases, the animation studio is not the biggest contributor and beneficiary of the production, I never supported the opposite, but even in your list, which uses the credit's order (I assume), you find the animation studio in almost all production.

@Klashikari: What I wrote above, plus the expertise the animation studio offers is an overwhelming influence to the end result. It is very hard to classify anime by distributor for example, but most fans can tell after one or two scenes or even by reading a story synopsis which studio is behind an anime.

Like it or not, animation studios also have those unpleasant guys that make executive decisions, and much more influential on the end result we get, then a TV or Record label executive. The only ones who have a stronger say are large distributors and powerful owners of the original source. That was and is my point, I hope I provided where it is based on, now you want to disagree with their validity, that's another story, and I am quite frankly not interested in going there.

KyoAni realized at some point that it could do better financially with just moe-blobs (of either sex), usually not accompanied with any story, and decided to leave the model most studios follow. Which means the anime that made me like the studio have zero chance of concluding on screen, and that in the near future, anime like Free and Kanata would be the epitome of their storytelling ability, which is not good enough for me.
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Old 2013-12-30, 15:47   Link #2415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
@ultimatemegax: I agree that in most cases, the animation studio is not the biggest contributor and beneficiary of the production, I never supported the opposite, but even in your list, which uses the credit's order (I assume), you find the animation studio in almost all production.
The list I used was the same one you did to demonstrate how little the studio impacts the production financially. I could find plenty of examples where the studio was just hired (just look in that link I gave you). I'd estimate about half the late-night productions have the studio in the committee and half don't (including situations like Wit (offshoot of Production IG) and Trigger (offshoot of ULTRA SUPER PICTURES) where their head company is a part of the committee).

The people who decide what studio to use are the producers at video distributors and the connections they have (eg. Aniplex and A-1 Pictures/Shaft). Those are the people who determine which studio will work on which project. Eg. JC Staff was contracted on Little Busters by Warner Home Video by a producer who worked previously with that studio; they didn't request the project themselves.

According to producer Oohashi at CTFK, KyoAni wanted to make original shows to become closer to the fans and be able to directly interact at events and sell merchandise to them directly. That's the big reason for the shift. (The additional revenue sources are a huge boost, including one people don't really think about: being on the Sales Committee for video discs unlike every other studio.)
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Old 2013-12-30, 16:48   Link #2416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
How this industry works has nothing to do with what I was writing about. The last anime where the studio tried something ambitious was the original Haruhi. Since then it entered a stagnant phase adapting popular sources, but without adding anything to them. And for the past two years, it stopped doing even that using "their own" sources in order to increase their profits.

Yes, these are solid financial decisions, but I don't watch anime because they are profitable or accessible, but I treat them like art, not fast food.
Nichijou and Hyouka is clearly more ambitious project than... say... "Free!"

You can see (Extremely) very high value production poured into that two works. Hyouka breaking up as the best visual animated TV series ever produced. To top it off, it wasn't adapted from a random LN. It was an award-winning Novel. And Yasuhiro Takemoto himself is well-known for his works in Haruhi and Disappearance.

But, look at the number says. People often goes with simple logic: Well talented staff + good story = win. It was never that easy. Heck, even Infinite Stratos puts Hyouka to shame (sales wise). That was why the studio stop even caring anymore. And stop even trying.
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Old 2013-12-30, 17:01   Link #2417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
KyoAni realized at some point that it could do better financially with just moe-blobs (of either sex), usually not accompanied with any story, and decided to leave the model most studios follow. Which means the anime that made me like the studio have zero chance of concluding on screen, and that in the near future, anime like Free and Kanata would be the epitome of their storytelling ability, which is not good enough for me.
This whole debate is like the epitome of the "lens blur" effect people's preferences have on their perceptions. The closer things are to your preferred genre/style, the more attentive you are to the aspects that make them distinct. The further removed things are from said genre/style, the more they all blur together to look the same. To me, as Klashikari also implied, all of Kyoto Animation's productions over the recent years have been hugely different; the elements they have in common are at best secondary or tertiary in terms of keeping my interest. So summing them up as "just moe-blobs usually with no story" seems rather insane as a grouping to me, though that's clearly how your "lens blur" perceives it. Of course, there are other aspects of anime where my own "lens blur" takes effect, and I'd probably lump a whole lot of dissimilar things together and be taken to task by people who are fans of that thing.

Anyway, that aside... your comment that "most fans can tell after one or two scenes or even by reading a story synopsis which studio is behind an anime" is also rather suspicious to me. Even though studios may form relationships with certain production partners, there are always outliers that don't fit the pattern. This seems tied to the above when you've lumped all these shows together as "moe-blobs", and are presuming "when people think moe-blobs, they think KyoAni!"... but this is an extremely superficial view.


Quote:
Originally Posted by all_flying View Post
But, look at the number says. People often goes with simple logic: Well talented staff + good story = win. It was never that easy. Heck, even Infinite Stratos puts Hyouka to shame (sales wise). That was why the studio stop even caring anymore. And stop even trying.
It's not that easy either, and certainly not a matter of "not caring" or "not trying". Entertainment is about making people happy, and there's no single formula or strategy that will reach all people all the time. And besides, our view of "success" is myopic when we only consider disc sales.
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Old 2013-12-30, 18:03   Link #2418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
This whole debate is like the epitome of the "lens blur" effect people's preferences have on their perceptions. The closer things are to your preferred genre/style, the more attentive you are to the aspects that make them distinct. The further removed things are from said genre/style, the more they all blur together to look the same. To me, as Klashikari also implied, all of Kyoto Animation's productions over the recent years have been hugely different; the elements they have in common are at best secondary or tertiary in terms of keeping my interest. So summing them up as "just moe-blobs usually with no story" seems rather insane as a grouping to me, though that's clearly how your "lens blur" perceives it. Of course, there are other aspects of anime where my own "lens blur" takes effect, and I'd probably lump a whole lot of dissimilar things together and be taken to task by people who are fans of that thing.
I'm not sure it's "lens blur" so much, as it is "allergy distortion". The reason I'm saying this is that I've come to react aversly to something in almost every KyoAni show since K-On, and I've developed an "allergy" to elements that remind of that feel. It's why I was initially suspicious of Hyouka, too. The Haruhi movie was immune due to prior positive marking. The only real exception is Nichijou, which also had elements I didn't like, but they didn't fall into the "KyoAni corner" for me.

It's hard to tell you exactly what it is, and by far the worst offender is Chuunibyou, though it's the most jarring in Kyoukai no Kanata. I'm aware it's entirely subjective, and from experience I know it's also hard to communicate what exactly bothers me, and how this is different from other shows I do like.

Imagine you're a teenager and your Dad is trying to tell dirty jokes to your friends. Imagine your favourite aunt giving you stale cookies, but you haven't got the heart to tell her. The KyoAni feel - to me - is: good-natured but patronising; it feels as if they use "aww isn't that cute?" as a means to dismiss emotions.

It's the overplayed embarrassment in Chuunibyou (but then why doesn't similar outrage in Oreshura bother me?). It's the bland inanity of K-On (but then why do I like A Channel?).

It's hard to pin down, and I wonder how much of it is prejudice (some of it is, since Kokoro Connect had an emotional strike against it simply because the character designs reminded me of K-On), and how much of it is simply personal incompatibility.

It's interesting to note that, to me, while the elements were strong in Tamako Market, too, they also unfolded a sort of "strength". It's my favourite of the KyoAni shows that are saturated with that feel.

I'm having trouble being fair to KyoAni shows, but it's definitely not "lens blur". It's something else, and I think "allergy distortion" might describe that something pretty well.
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Old 2013-12-30, 18:10   Link #2419
AmeNoJaku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
This whole debate is like the epitome of the "lens blur" effect people's preferences have on their perceptions. The closer things are to your preferred genre/style, the more attentive you are to the aspects that make them distinct. The further removed things are from said genre/style, the more they all blur together to look the same. To me, as Klashikari also implied, all of Kyoto Animation's productions over the recent years have been hugely different; the elements they have in common are at best secondary or tertiary in terms of keeping my interest. So summing them up as "just moe-blobs usually with no story" seems rather insane as a grouping to me, though that's clearly how your "lens blur" perceives it. Of course, there are other aspects of anime where my own "lens blur" takes effect, and I'd probably lump a whole lot of dissimilar things together and be taken to task by people who are fans of that thing.

Anyway, that aside... your comment that "most fans can tell after one or two scenes or even by reading a story synopsis which studio is behind an anime" is also rather suspicious to me. Even though studios may form relationships with certain production partners, there are always outliers that don't fit the pattern. This seems tied to the above when you've lumped all these shows together as "moe-blobs", and are presuming "when people think moe-blobs, they think KyoAni!"... but this is an extremely superficial view.
Superficial or not, yes, when most viewers think of moe-blobs, KyoAni is the first studio that comes to their mind. Now each of us has different preferences, views, etc. This shouldn't stop us from recognizing some common elements that define the work of certain groups (superficial or not, that's subjective). I didn't want to imply that all their anime are copy/paste with some trivial shuffling (like Air, Kannon and Clannad), but that the studio developed certain elements both in animation and direction/storytelling that (for better or worse) give it a distinct identity, which it maintained even after stopping being just "hired guns" of Kadokawa (as it was implied). Same can be said about most studios that lead animation productions and participate (with varying decrees of influence) in their financial aspects.

PS: As for suffering from "lens blur", I humbly disagree, but don't wish to reply at such personal observations. I'd rather stick to facts, opinions and interpretations, rather than analyze the psychology of my peers, that is never productive in any discussion
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Old 2013-12-30, 21:58   Link #2420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
PS: As for suffering from "lens blur", I humbly disagree, but don't wish to reply at such personal observations. I'd rather stick to facts, opinions and interpretations, rather than analyze the psychology of my peers, that is never productive in any discussion
My point was that I think everyone suffers from this sort of phenomenon, and it wasn't some sort of attempt to smear you or anyone else in particular. Categorizing is a funny thing; you put a whole bunch of otherwise distinct/different shows into a single common box, which runs contrary to the more conventional ways of organizing things, and not all agree with your grouping. To you, they're all "the same" because of this one seemingly-common factor. To others, they're entirely different, and this "common factor" either doesn't exist or is very minor. Categorization sounds like fact (and you continue to make bold fact-like assertions), but clearly there is an element of opinion there.

Perhaps, to Dawnstorm's point, this is more like an allergy to a certain sort of spice, and the presence of this element taints the whole work to some viewers. To others who don't necessarily mind this "spice", the experience is defined more by other elements of the work (that they may like or dislike in their own right). Obviously that is still an oversimplification.

At a certain point in the conversation, it's more productive to try to understand why the different parties see things differently rather than continuing to argue at brick walls over key differences in perspective.
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