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Old 2011-08-31, 12:13   Link #541
Ithekro
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For reference, I own a couple shelves of R1 discs, which I buy for two reasons: first, because I want to support the creators, and second, because I don't want to be known as the guy who only downloads and never buys.
You know, I find these reasons strange and unusual. They are very Internet-centric. Maybe that is considered normal now< but that way of thinking is rather alien to me.
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Old 2011-09-01, 02:39   Link #542
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Ratings reflect perceived quality in a general sense. But they don't necessarily reflect elements like degree of accessibility or range of appeal.
I was actually talking TV ratings. If you consider K-On!'s initial run, the size of the TV audience would not suggest it would enjoy such success on Bluray. The mainstream releases came after the Bluray AFAIK and the fact that anime makes up a dispropotionately large amount of DVD and Bluray sales in Japan suggests that the mainstream there typically doesn't buy DVDs and Blurays anyway.

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K-On, perhaps amusingly without its own creators even realizing it, managed to create teenage female characters that appeal both to male otakus and to (some) real life teenage girls. They hit a cross-demographic "sweet spot", so to speak. There's also few if any elements in K-On that make it an instant "no go" for some otakus. Its "pureness and harmlessness", as Reck puts it, is part of its appeal to many paying customers, I think. Not every anime show has that. In fact, most don't have that.
I'm not normally one to link K-On!'s cross demographic appeal and sales too closely (like I said, I don't think the Japanese mainstream buys home video). But I actually do think that K-On!'s appeal for girls actually did contribute to its home video sales because not all otaku are female.


Overall though I really do think that the theory mentioned by the industry reps TJR quoted - that otaku often buy the DVD or Bluray as a souvenir of their experiences during the theatrical run or TV airing of a big anime - is one of the biggest factors. It would also explain the high sales of some other shows like Angel Beats.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
You know, I find these reasons strange and unusual. They are very Internet-centric. Maybe that is considered normal now< but that way of thinking is rather alien to me.
Remember, I do the vast majority of my watching on a PC. For watching alone, it doesn't matter much to me if the copy is physical or not so long as the quality is good and I can back it up (seldom a problem, fansubs don't use DRM). So my purchases are driven more by things like wanting to support the creators.

I suppose that I like NIS releases a lot in large part due to their gorgeous artboxes and such, but very few R1 companies take advantage of the physical nature of the their products the way NIS does.
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Old 2011-09-01, 06:00   Link #543
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I'm not normally one to link K-On!'s cross demographic appeal and sales too closely (like I said, I don't think the Japanese mainstream buys home video). But I actually do think that K-On!'s appeal for girls actually did contribute to its home video sales because not all otaku are female.
I agree. I think it's useful to stress that the otaku market does not just consist of anime watching males. The total otaku market consists of 1.7 million people( including electronics, anime, audio-video quipment, idols, manga, LN, games, modelbuilding, etc) of which 110k are anime otaku, rougly half of these are women. (source:Nomura Research Institute, 2005).

Otaku are defined by them as: ""people who spend almost all their spare money and time for leisure or hobbies on a field in which they have a strong interest (consumer characteristic), and who possess unique psychological characteristics. (a.k.a. see it as an identity/are part of a subculture)".

Interestingly the total anime buying market in Japan is estimated to be 200k individuals. I would interpret that as half the anime buyers are not active in the social side of the hobby. So I think there is evidence for both the "memory of fun times" theory of TJR and the "buying it because you love it" view of Goggen.

Really succesfull anime in terms of disc sales will appeal to multiple types of otaku, for example Steins gate can also target game and electronics otaku, Bakemonogatari attracted both fujoshi, male otaku and manga fans etc.

What makes K-On unique is that it managed to escape the otaku scene altogether and attracted mainstream school aged children. That hasn't happened for any late night anime since NGE, even Haruhi, Madoka and Nanoha were mostly otaku phenomenon.

Last edited by Bri; 2011-09-01 at 06:42. Reason: spelling
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Old 2011-09-01, 06:17   Link #544
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I'm a big fan of many of this studio's animes that have rolled out over the years, some good examples being the likes of Air, The Melancholy Of Haruhi Suzumiya, Kanon, Lucky Star & both Clannad seasons
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Old 2011-09-01, 09:32   Link #545
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
I agree. I think it's useful to stress that the otaku market does not just consist of anime watching males. The total otaku market consists of 1.7 million people( including electronics, anime, audio-video quipment, idols, manga, LN, games, modelbuilding, etc) of which 110k are anime otaku, rougly half of these are women. (source:Nomura Research Institute, 2005).
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Interestingly the total anime buying market in Japan is estimated to be 200k individuals. I would interpret that as half the anime buyers are not active in the social side of the hobby. So I think there is evidence for both the "memory of fun times" theory of TJR and the "buying it because you love it" view of Goggen.
You always end up bringing the most interesting fact that nobody else even seems to know about into these discussions.

Do you have any speculations on which shows are popular with which half of the fanbase? Do you think there's any difference?

Two statistical notes: first, that some of the major releases TV anime of recent years have achieved 20%+ market penetration if the market is 200K, and second, ratings would suggest a lot more than 200K people tune in for some late night shows so the paying audience is a subset.

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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Really succesfull anime in terms of disc sales will appeal to multiple types of otaku, for example Steins gate can also target game and electronics otaku, Bakemonogatari attracted both fujoshi, male otaku and manga fans etc.
Wait, Bakemonogatari attracted fujoshi? I'll admit my girlfriend loves it, but she's a moe otaku in addition to being a fujoshi, its not because of her fujoshi interests.
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Old 2011-09-01, 15:50   Link #546
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
You always end up bringing the most interesting fact that nobody else even seems to know about into these discussions.

Do you have any speculations on which shows are popular with which half of the fanbase? Do you think there's any difference?
One of the perks of having a department of Japanese studies on campus. Plenty of people interested in modern Japanese popculture and business. There has been quite extensive research done in Japan into otaku marketing, unfortunately, little is translated and Japanese companies/government agencies are not exactly known for sharing data with the academia.

Going back to the topic: I don't think it's possible to assign particular tastes to either group. One side gets a form of group identity and a creative outlet (lifestyle?) from anime, the other side are pure collectors following their own interests. I would assume the first group is more likely to concentrate on shows that generate discussion or concentrate on a genre with like minded individuals, while the second is probably spread out more evenly. I don't believe in the type A/B generalisation.
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Two statistical notes: first, that some of the major releases TV anime of recent years have achieved 20%+ market penetration if the market is 200K, and second, ratings would suggest a lot more than 200K people tune in for some late night shows so the paying audience is a subset.
It's possible, but consider that most of the 20k+ TV anime also have a (different) otaku fanbase in other mediums like games, manga, LN, models etc. It's quite possible that some non-anime otaku could be enticed to buy an anime of their favorite mangas/VN/game etc. Franchise loyalty across mediums. Amongst the top sellers PMMM might be a bit of a mystery but I suspect that the Nanoha fanbase picked it up.

I agree that ratings do show there is a significantly larger audience than those who buy anime. I suspect there is quite a bit of turnover in the fanbase, it's not an easy or cheap lifestyle. One in how many viewers would be enticed to take up otaku spending habits?
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Wait, Bakemonogatari attracted fujoshi? I'll admit my girlfriend loves it, but she's a moe otaku in addition to being a fujoshi, its not because of her fujoshi interests.
Afaik Hiroshi Kamiya has a strong fan following in fujoshi circles.
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Old 2011-09-01, 16:18   Link #547
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I see the claim that K-on attracted all kinds of demographics constantly but I've yet to see anyone explicitly prove it with some sort of statistic or article. Granted I've yet to see anyone prove statistically what the actual demographic breakup of the people who bought it is. I'd positively love to see all this cleared up at some point for the sake of this debates credibility.
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Old 2011-09-01, 17:05   Link #548
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I see the claim that K-on attracted all kinds of demographics constantly but I've yet to see anyone explicitly prove it with some sort of statistic or article. Granted I've yet to see anyone prove statistically what the actual demographic breakup of the people who bought it is. I'd positively love to see all this cleared up at some point for the sake of this debates credibility.
It's airing on the freakin' Disney Channel in Japan. How much more evidence do you need?

Just look at this site. The Japanese Disney Channel is obviously aimed at kids, and not otakus.
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Old 2011-09-01, 17:20   Link #549
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's airing on the freakin' Disney Channel in Japan. How much more evidence do you need?

Just look at this site. The Japanese Disney Channel is obviously aimed at kids, and not otakus.
That it is.

http://www.disneychannel.jp/disneych...tail/?pid=k_on
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Old 2011-09-01, 17:28   Link #550
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's airing on the freakin' Disney Channel in Japan. How much more evidence do you need?

Just look at this site. The Japanese Disney Channel is obviously aimed at kids, and not otakus.
That somehow seems like an appropriate fit.

I always did claim that K-On was the kind of show that rightfully should be targetted towards children. This just seems natural to me.
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Old 2011-09-01, 19:26   Link #551
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
That somehow seems like an appropriate fit.

I always did claim that K-On was the kind of show that rightfully should be targetted towards children. This just seems natural to me.
Wait, it isn't? :P
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Old 2011-09-01, 20:34   Link #552
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Wait, I thought K-On! was aimed at...actually, never mind. Intended audience and reached audience aren't always the same.
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Old 2011-09-01, 20:46   Link #553
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Wait, I thought K-On! was aimed at...actually, never mind. Intended audience and reached audience aren't always the same.
Well, K-On! no doubt appealed to otakus (and it was initially aimed at them), or its DVDs/Blu-Rays would not have sold as well as they did.

However, a show doesn't air on the Disney Channel if it can't appeal to kids at all, imo.

So, as a somewhat educated guess, I'd say that K-On! appealed to young adult male otakus and a significant number of girls between the ages of 7 and 15. It's an unusual demographic combo to achieve, but K-On! appears to have achieved it, imo.
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Old 2011-09-01, 20:46   Link #554
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What is this, I don't even ... . Teenage girls I can understand, but kids ... . My guess is that they did a bit of editing, removing and/or censoring though. I question the notion of Mio falling down and flashing panty-shots "kidsafe" :. And "breast" comments.
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Old 2011-09-01, 20:59   Link #555
Ithekro
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Well thry left the one panty shot out originally anyway (the otaku crowd had been waiting for it and never got it), and I imagne the rest won't phase Japanese kids at all. They aren't American children (or more accurately American soccer moms).
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Old 2011-09-01, 21:10   Link #556
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What is this, I don't even ... . Teenage girls I can understand, but kids ... . My guess is that they did a bit of editing, removing and/or censoring though. I question the notion of Mio falling down and flashing panty-shots "kidsafe" :. And "breast" comments.
Aside from what Ithekro said, it's important to keep in mind that the pantyshot in question is handled as a 100% comedy moment. In context, it's much more "Ha ha! Your underwear is showing!" than sex appeal. Kids will simply see it as Mio enduring a comedic embarrassing moment, not her being played up for sex appeal.

If I had a 7-year old daughter, I'd honestly feel entirely comfortable watching K-On with her.
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Old 2011-09-01, 22:50   Link #557
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Aside from what Ithekro said, it's important to keep in mind that the pantyshot in question is handled as a 100% comedy moment. In context, it's much more "Ha ha! Your underwear is showing!" than sex appeal. Kids will simply see it as Mio enduring a comedic embarrassing moment, not her being played up for sex appeal.

If I had a 7-year old daughter, I'd honestly feel entirely comfortable watching K-On with her.
If I had a kid I probably still wouldn't want them watching K-On for one specific reason. The fact that it implies that you can become good at something (in this case music) without hard work and practice. Nothing bothered me about that show more than the fact that Yui gets better at guitar without even so much as a montage of her practicing that I can recall and there's certainly no implication that hard work played any part in it. I just think that's a horrible thing to teach a kid and kind of clashes fiercely with the values I'd want to teach the next generation.
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Old 2011-09-01, 23:00   Link #558
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
If I had a kid I probably still wouldn't want them watching K-On for one specific reason. The fact that it implies that you can become good at something (in this case music) without hard work and practice. Nothing bothered me about that show more than the fact that Yui gets better at guitar without even so much as a montage of her practicing that I can recall and there's certainly no implication that hard work played any part in it. I just think that's a horrible thing to teach a kid and kind of clashes fiercely with the values I'd want to teach the next generation.
While I certainly see value in teaching kids the importance of hard work and practice, I think it's also good for kids at a young age to realize that sheer natural talent is important and will make a difference in life... such as the sheer natural talent that Yui clearly has.

Learning that at a young age will enable kids to accept this earlier, I think. It'll let them accept that it's not always the hardest working person who does the best. That life can be... unfair that way.
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Old 2011-09-01, 23:01   Link #559
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
If I had a kid I probably still wouldn't want them watching K-On for one specific reason. The fact that it implies that you can become good at something (in this case music) without hard work and practice. Nothing bothered me about that show more than the fact that Yui gets better at guitar without even so much as a montage of her practicing that I can recall and there's certainly no implication that hard work played any part in it. I just think that's a horrible thing to teach a kid and kind of clashes fiercely with the values I'd want to teach the next generation.
Perhaps a difference in interpretation, but I'd felt the message was "do what you love, and have fun in high school". You should watch the series again too, because aside from fondling and sleeping with her guitar, she strums it in the montages of her not doing homework.
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Old 2011-09-01, 23:12   Link #560
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Meh...I didn't even notice all of these...subtleties with K-On! until I read a few reviews pointing them out. One will generally head into shows like these without looking too much into things anyway.
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