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Old 2011-12-31, 02:27   Link #861
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So, in other words, while there remains more Haruhi and FMP to adapt, KyoAni is deciding to pick up two entirely new properties rather than to take a more balanced approach by doing something new while also continuing on with one or more of its established franchise. I find that very disappointing. KyoAni is basically leaving fans of its established franchises out in the cold.
It has nothing to do with KyoAni, Haruhi and FMP are both Kadokawa properties and if Kadokawa wants to hold back on Haruhi and has decided FMP is done, that's it.

Quote:
And if KyoAni don't intend to ever do more FMP, then it's high-time that they let some other anime studio take over that franchise, don't you think?
KyoAni don't own FMP, if Kadokawa wanted to they could get someone else to license it. It's pointless for Kadokawa to make another FMP, the light novels have already peaked in popularity and the series itself is over. FMP Another is the current title and you'll have more chance of seeing an adaption of that than another 3 series worth of adaptions to finish the FMP saga off.

http://myanimelist.net/manga/28485/F...Panic!_Another

Here are the weekly manga and light novels rankings for December 19th - 25th.
Light Novels

*3, *49,830 *53,461 Full Metal Panic! Another vol.2

And Kadokawa could see these good sales for FMP Another and just dismiss this as the FMP crowd and not even bother with an anime. The idea of an anime is a gateway into something else, whether it's pushing manga like Ao no Exorcist did to an amazing extent, or selling fuckloads of light novels like Baka Test, Durrara, Bakemonogatari, Infinite Stratos etc, or selling model kits like Gundam.

FMP TSR was my fav mecha title of last decade not named RahXephon, while it sucks that I'll never be able to finish the series I can see why Kadokawa have "abandoned" it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It may not be KyoAni's choice alone, but their business relationship with Kadokawa is a two-way street, isn't it? After KyoAni almost certainly ate up a financial loss on Nichijou, KyoAni would have some basis for requesting to do more Haruhi instead of more brand new Kadokawa properties.
KyoAni are hired to produce an animation, they are not equal business partners, Kadokawa holds all the cards. What exactly stops them from saying "fuck them lets go to Ordet or P.A Works" if KyoAni got too pushy for their own good?

Also unless KyoAni took a % of profits deal for Nichijou than I doubt they lost money.... considering Kadokawa's maneuvering to get it to air in a prime time tv slot I'll say they're the ones trying to recover loses... (lol if it pulls a MSG during this rerun)

Quote:
Have they bothered to make such a request, or do they simply ask "How high?" whenever Kadokawa shouts "Jump!"? Because if it's the latter, that sort of meekness is itself disappointing to see in a prominent animation studio that actually should hold the upper-hand in these sorts of discussions, due to their level of success in the anime sphere compared to Kadokawa (I recall reading that anime shows based on Kadokawa properties tanked big time back in Summer 2011).
How can you have an upper hand in this when the property is owned by the other side who can go to any animation studio they want in Japan?

Quote:
However, it's certainly fair to say that Kadokawa should shoulder at least some of the blame for the lack of more Haruhi or FMP.
If by some you mean all than yes you're correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rulfo View Post
WHAT THE ................


So two KyoAni shows? So... I'm guessing slated for summer...
It could air in fall, shows often get announced way ahead of time and I'm assuming this is one of them. This anime announcement was done @ the same time as the release of the second light novel IIRC, it's marketing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I'd always heard that Haruhi wasn't a major hit before the KyoAni got its hands on it. Ditto for K-On. Air would be the major exception, and even that sold 3X what the previous attempt at adapting a Key work did.
They certainly weren't guaranteed successes... I don't know how popular Haruhi was in Japan at the time but it certainly was nowhere near what it was after the anime.. and for English fandom nobody even bothered to translate the name of the show. K-ON was also nowhere near popular prior to the anime... the current film is on track to surpass the first Evangelion movie in takings... think about that for a second... (of course 2.0 blows anything non-ghibli away with ease_
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Old 2011-12-31, 02:45   Link #862
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Btw what's the sales difference in $ between Arietty and K-On! Movie?
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Old 2011-12-31, 05:52   Link #863
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Btw what's the sales difference in $ between Arietty and K-On! Movie?
?

around six million US$ on opening week. Why?
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Old 2011-12-31, 10:08   Link #864
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
It has nothing to do with KyoAni, Haruhi and FMP are both Kadokawa properties and if Kadokawa wants to hold back on Haruhi and has decided FMP is done, that's it.
That's just silly. Of course it has something to do with KyoAni. What's to stop Kadokawa from going to P.A. Works or Ordet instead of KyoAni is pretty obvious: KyoAni's unparalleled rate of sales success as an anime studio. That ought to hold some serious value to Kadokawa, and make them think twice about crossing KyoAni if KyoAni makes certain requests of them, don't you think?

No anime studio can boast the consistency of sales success that KyoAni can. That has to be highly attractive to the holders of properties that wish to have those properties become anime shows. Simply put, KyoAni should be able to leverage great anime adaptation arrangements for itself given its position within the anime industry.

So why in Haruhi's name has it basically become little more than the plaything of Kadokawa it seems?

Kyoto Animation has gone from being a truly trailblazing animation studio to one who's very raison d'être now seems to be adapting/promoting relatively obscure Kadokawa properties. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

KyoAni should absolutely be able to say to Kadokawa "Ok, we'll do Nichijou for you, but in return, you let us do more Haruhi. Agreed?"

And if Kadokawa balks at that, then they're not showing KyoAni the respect that they deserve, and KyoAni can then go to Key and do Little Busters (which Key clearly has been begging for based on a recent press release talking about it). It's not like KyoAni has no other options but Kadokawa.


Quote:
KyoAni don't own FMP, if Kadokawa wanted to they could get someone else to license it. It's pointless for Kadokawa to make another FMP, the light novels have already peaked in popularity and the series itself is over.
Of course it's not pointless. Kadokawa making another FMP shows that they actually care about dedicated fans of their properties, including fans of the anime versions of their properties. That helps to build a healthy, good faith relationship between content providers and the fans of that content.

As is, it sounds like from what you're saying, that Kadokawa couldn't care less about the anime-watching fans of its own properties. That's a horrible message to send to its fans, don't you think?


Quote:
And Kadokawa could see these good sales for FMP Another and just dismiss this as the FMP crowd and not even bother with an anime. The idea of an anime is a gateway into something else,
So an anime has no value in and of itself, and fans of the anime alone are basically worthless. Is that really an idea that you want to be supporting?


Quote:
KyoAni are hired to produce an animation, they are not equal business partners, Kadokawa holds all the cards.
Why should Kadokawa hold all the cards? Even if you want to think of KyoAni as simply a service industry for manga, light novel, and visual novel producers, that would still render them arguably the best at providing the particular service (anime adaptations) that they do. That should logically enable them to negotiate more favorable business agreement terms for themselves (i.e. "If you want us to do Nichijou, fine, but it means we also get to do more Haruhi in a year's time").


Quote:

Also unless KyoAni took a % of profits deal for Nichijou than I doubt they lost money.... considering Kadokawa's maneuvering to get it to air in a prime time tv slot I'll say they're the ones trying to recover loses... (lol if it pulls a MSG during this rerun)
So KyoAni has no investment in the DVD/Blu-Ray sales of its properties whatsoever? If not, where does it get money from for its Nichijou work? Is it simply paid a big lump sum of cash (by Kadokawa) for doing Nichijou, and that's it?

These are not rhetorical questions, by the way. They're quite serious. Almost nobody on this site talks about DVD/Blu-Ray sales as though they have no impact whatsoever on the anime studio that produces the content for them. So if they actually have no such impact, then that would be a good thing to learn.

Quote:

How can you have an upper hand in this when the property is owned by the other side who can go to any animation studio they want in Japan?
Like I said, you can have the upper hand (or at least an equally strong hand) by being widely regarded as one of the very best and commercially successful animation studios in the industry. Do you honestly think Kadokawa would rather have JC Staff or DEEN do its properties?


Quote:
If by some you mean all than yes you're correct.
No, I mean some. I think you're being very one-sided in your arguments.


Quote:
K-ON was also nowhere near popular prior to the anime... the current film is on track to surpass the first Evangelion movie in takings... think about that for a second... (of course 2.0 blows anything non-ghibli away with ease_
And this is precisely why Kadokawa should be wanting to do everything possible to keep KyoAni happy. With the track record that KyoAni has for commercial success, they ought to be the most attractive anime adaptation service provider around.

So there's no good reason for them to be this beholden to the whims of Kadokawa.
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Old 2011-12-31, 13:51   Link #865
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It is fortunate for K-On that it is handled by Pony Canyon and not Kadokawa.

I'm supposing KyoAni would be seen as a contractor. They are paid to do a service under contract. What we don't know is what that contract is (who gets what, how long it is inforced...what is required by each party, etc...)

That anime productions seen to take two years to make...That would place Nichijou's start around the time K-On aired the first time, and up thought the Endless Eight in terms of what was going on between KyoAni and Kadokawa. This next project would have been during K-On's second seeason. Which means we won't start seeing the backlash of Kadokawa's hand in Nichijou's sales until the 2013 or 2014 KyoAni/Kadokawa project.

If KyoAni is limited to basically one product per contractor a year. And if KEY products are through Pony Canyon....then KyoAni can have up to three projects a year (roughly, depending on length of the anime), with one Kadokawa, one Pony Canyon, and now one KyoAni production...unless of course the new Romance Comedy is being destricuted by Pony Canyon, then it is still just two. This includes film projects.
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Old 2011-12-31, 14:24   Link #866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It is fortunate for K-On that it is handled by Pony Canyon and not Kadokawa.

I'm supposing KyoAni would be seen as a contractor. They are paid to do a service under contract. What we don't know is what that contract is (who gets what, how long it is inforced...what is required by each party, etc...)
Interesting. Thanks for the info. Admittedly, my thought has always been that anime studios make earnings directly from the sales of anime dvds/blu-rays. After all, that is the strong implication made whenever anime fans discuss sales figures here on Anime Suki (and other anime sites I've been on).
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Old 2011-12-31, 14:34   Link #867
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's just silly. Of course it has something to do with KyoAni. What's to stop Kadokawa from going to P.A. Works or Ordet instead of KyoAni is pretty obvious: KyoAni's unparalleled rate of sales success as an anime studio. That ought to hold some serious value to Kadokawa, and make them think twice about crossing KyoAni if KyoAni makes certain requests of them, don't you think?
Kadokawa does work with other studios. Another major Kadokawa group property like Index for example is placed at J.C.Staff. Kyoani is the restricting factor here, they only take on a limited number of projects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No anime studio can boast the consistency of sales success that KyoAni can. That has to be highly attractive to the holders of properties that wish to have those properties become anime shows. Simply put, KyoAni should be able to leverage great anime adaptation arrangements for itself given its position within the anime industry.
Who says they don't? From the past we know that Kyoani management have had strong personal ties with content. Kyoani director Ichirou Miyoshi's push for Munto has been linked with his importance to the company as his brother is the CEO of TV Ashi's animation planning division. Director Tatsuya Ishihara is a self admitted Key fan. Quite possible there are some major Nichijou fans among Kyoani senior staff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kyoto Animation has gone from being a truly trailblazing animation studio to one who's very raison d'être now seems to be adapting/promoting relatively obscure Kadokawa properties. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
They still are way ahead of the field. Look at the animation development from the Munto OVA to K-on! to Nichijou. Kyoani's technical abilities are still developing strongly over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
As is, it sounds like from what you're saying, that Kadokawa couldn't care less about the anime-watching fans of its own properties. That's a horrible message to send to its fans, don't you think?So an anime has no value in and of itself, and fans of the anime alone are basically worthless. Is that really an idea that you want to be supporting?
He is right though. The point is that the real value of a property is in owning the IP rights. For Kadokawa anime is a way to promote and enhance a brand name, not a goal in itself. See their corporate strategy for yourself: http://www.kadokawa-hd.co.jp/ir/annu...nnual_2011.pdf page 4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So KyoAni has no investment in the DVD/Blu-Ray sales of its properties whatsoever? If not, where does it get money from for its Nichijou work? Is it simply paid a big lump sum of cash (by Kadokawa) for doing Nichijou, and that's it?
That is the real question. I doubt anyone but insiders know the details of the contracts. It's quite possible that a sequel is less profitable for Kyoani. For Kadokawa the increase in sales boost of other media like manga and light novels might only occur once and sequels are just a necessity for fan maintenance. This would be reflected in the compensation for the producer. A famous example is Victory Gundam where the Sunrise staff actively sabotaged the project as the low budget and sponsor interference created a lot of stress and the team got sick of the project.
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Old 2011-12-31, 14:54   Link #868
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Kadokawa does work with other studios.
Yes, I'm aware.

But like you said, KyoAni is the restricting factor here. Kadokawa would likely prefer it if KyoAni could do more, if anything.

That is part of what gives KyoAni the leverage that I referred to.


Quote:
Who says they don't?
Westlo seems to be saying that they don't. Westlo seems to be arguing that KyoAni can only take what Kadokawa wants to give it, and has absolutely no say whatsoever in the matter. That's part of what I'm disagreeing with.


Quote:
They still are way ahead of the field. Look at the animation development from the Munto OVA to K-on! to Nichijou. Kyoani's technical abilities are still developing strongly over time.
Nobody is questioning KyoAni's technical abilities. What some of us are questioning is their choice in properties to do. And yes, it's their choice. They could have been doing Little Busters right now based on what Key representatives recently had to say about it.

This idea that KyoAni shouldn't be held accountable at all for the properties it chooses to do just seems off-base to me. It's not like they're a subsidiary of Kadokawa.


Quote:
He is right though.
Really? So are you also saying that an anime has no value in and of itself, and that anime customers are essentially worthless?

That the only thing that matters is how popular an anime makes its associated source material? Haruhi Season 1 pulling down 40K or more is inconsequential, as is the Nichijou anime bombing?

These are all serious questions by the way. The idea that your conveying here is certainly not how I read most other anime fans evaluate anime DVD/Blu-Ray sales figures.


Quote:
The point is that the real value of a property is in owning the IP rights.
So there's no value in anime sales success (or lack thereof) in and of itself?
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Old 2011-12-31, 15:02   Link #869
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So there's no value in anime sales success (or lack thereof) in and of itself?
It's not that there's no value in and of itself. However, to the IP owner, the money made on anime is only a part of the overall picture.

Naturally, other investors may place more importance on the anime production (i.e. DVD distributor, anime studio)
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Old 2011-12-31, 15:07   Link #870
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The value of an anime based on the IP rights is basically how well it does as a commercial for all the other products of that IP (manga, novels, games, figures, CDs, the eventual DVD/BR and other things people buy). The only direct profit the anime gets would be the DVD/Br sales and perhaps online distribution (depending on how that model works).

Nichijou's success or failure may not be tired to its BR sales, but on its increased manga sales, CD sales, and sales of other items...as far as Kadokawa goes anyway. The lack of BR sales doesn't help it though. And that doesn't help KyoAni at all...save that despite all this, their reputation for animation is quite secure given what they did for Nichijou. And as an animation studio, their reputation is their selling point.
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Old 2011-12-31, 15:09   Link #871
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It's not that there's no value in and of itself. However, to the IP owner, the money made on anime is only a part of the overall picture.
Well that's fine. I respect that.
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Old 2011-12-31, 15:27   Link #872
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Nichijou's success or failure may not be tired to its BR sales, but on its increased manga sales, CD sales, and sales of other items...as far as Kadokawa goes anyway. The lack of BR sales doesn't help it though. And that doesn't help KyoAni at all...save that despite all this, their reputation for animation is quite secure given what they did for Nichijou. And as an animation studio, their reputation is their selling point.
Exactly. As Wetlo pointed out, if it picks up in a normal television slot, it may still become a sleeper financial success.
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Old 2012-01-01, 07:55   Link #873
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Doesn't related to the on going discussion

I don't know if anyone had post it before. But I just found an interesting video on YouTube:

Spoiler for anime making:


Enjoy
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Old 2012-01-01, 08:16   Link #874
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
I don't know how popular Haruhi was in Japan at the time but it certainly was nowhere near what it was after the anime
I don't know its popularity either, but Haruhi was not safe or easy at all without doubt because many other anime studios turned down the offer of the adaptation on ground of the difficulty of adapting it into anime. The adaptation plan was suspended for a while until KyoAni accepted the offer.

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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Who says they don't? From the past we know that Kyoani management have had strong personal ties with content. Kyoani director Ichirou Miyoshi's push for Munto has been linked with his importance to the company as his brother is the CEO of TV Ashi's animation planning division. Director Tatsuya Ishihara is a self admitted Key fan. Quite possible there are some major Nichijou fans among Kyoani senior staff.
Did the CEO have involvement in producing and distributing Munto? Munto's push is because of KyoAni's strong passion to produce their original anime. They had published their original plans and novels in their discontinued web magazine KyoAni BON for years. And apparently, Ishihara became a Key fan AFTER he directed Air. When Producer Nakayama from TBS asked KyoAni to adapt Air through Writer Shimo, (who is a real Key fan), Ishihara only knew of its name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So KyoAni has no investment in the DVD/Blu-Ray sales of its properties whatsoever?
Yes, KyoAni has investment in those. Being part of production committee means it. KyoAni invests more in anime than other studios and have more rights, such as an exclusive right to use the costume designs used in the ED of K-ON.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not like they're a subsidiary of Kadokawa.
Perhaps KyoAni sort of is. Rumor has it that Producer Ito from Kadokawa is one of KyoAni's non-executive directors. Producer Nakayama from TBS is one too.
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Old 2012-01-02, 10:15   Link #875
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http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-6324.html

Translation.

Seems like FMP related stuff.
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Old 2012-01-02, 17:26   Link #876
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^ it say he have plan on 2012. people speculating anime for obvious reason.

so what happens here? why it sound doom and gloom? did K-ON movie not sucessful?
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Old 2012-01-02, 17:27   Link #877
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What doom and gloom?

What I get is mostly people want something and it just is not coming, yet.

I just compare the "worst" case possible. Space Battleship Yamato had a relatively good ten years for production. Then it ended for ten years. It was to have a comeback and sequels (then the producer got arrested for drugs and guns), but all it got were semi-offshoots that didn't feel like Yamato. The actual sequel went on hold for fifteen years. It was finally released in 2009. After that the series got a live action remake movie in 2010. It is getting a reboot series this year and there is still a rumor that the sequel movie is a part one of three.

Full Metal Panic and Haruhi are in far better shapes than Space Battleship Yamato was in the late 1980s or 1990s...or 2000s. For FMP, at least its sequel seems to be on the same level as the original so far..and is not like hundreds of years in the future.
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Old 2012-01-02, 17:37   Link #878
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oh usual "i want kyoani animate this!" discussion. oh well. nothing new then
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Old 2012-01-02, 17:45   Link #879
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Most of it seems to be "who pulls the strings" talk.

However we know KyoAni is animating two shows: Hyou-ka, and Chū-2 Byō Demo Koi ga Shitai!, plus there is a suggestion there is a third anime for 2013 in the works (which is likely true given the time it takes to animate things).

We don't know when these two anime will be released, nor in what format.
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Old 2012-01-02, 22:01   Link #880
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We don't know when these two anime will be released, nor in what format.
Nor for how long or whether they have anything else up their sleeves either. So yea typical business as usual.
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