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Old 2012-05-25, 20:12   Link #1061
Malkuth
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Isn't it obvious that KyoAni wishes to appeal to whoever they perceive will return their investment (as a studio, not as a producer)... that's why their later works are so mainstream and uninspired
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Old 2012-05-25, 21:56   Link #1062
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What do you mean by mainstream?

-Appealing to audiences in Japan other than Otaku. After K-On! KyoAni has given more attention to their periphery demographics, but they still make works that invoke lots of moe directed otaku. I don't think they are losing their touch due to taking into consideration non-otaku viewers at all. I like the "natural moe" thing. Their most ambitious project towards non-moe fans, Nichijyou was relatively a failure, thus I don't think that they will continue moving in that direction at all.
-Appealing to western mainstream. I don't see how this is true. Their western mainstream-ness peaked with Haruhi and I don't really think they care about our market at all.

KyoAni production values are still as high as ever which is their end of the deal for adaptations. Girls still invoke lots of moe. I just wish that they were given different series to adapt.

As for wanting to appeal to whoever will buy, may I point out that they are still making more Munto.
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Old 2012-05-25, 23:57   Link #1063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Isn't it obvious that KyoAni wishes to appeal to whoever they perceive will return their investment (as a studio, not as a producer)... that's why their later works are so mainstream and uninspired
I think I'll echo Random32 and also ask you what do you mean by mainstream and uninspired?

I'm really interested if you can come up with an unbiased definition of both (considering how biased the start of your sentence was)...
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Old 2012-05-26, 04:51   Link #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
What do you mean by mainstream?

-Appealing to audiences in Japan other than Otaku. After K-On! KyoAni has given more attention to their periphery demographics, but they still make works that invoke lots of moe directed otaku. I don't think they are losing their touch due to taking into consideration non-otaku viewers at all. I like the "natural moe" thing. Their most ambitious project towards non-moe fans, Nichijyou was relatively a failure, thus I don't think that they will continue moving in that direction at all.
-Appealing to western mainstream. I don't see how this is true. Their western mainstream-ness peaked with Haruhi and I don't really think they care about our market at all.

KyoAni production values are still as high as ever which is their end of the deal for adaptations. Girls still invoke lots of moe. I just wish that they were given different series to adapt.

As for wanting to appeal to whoever will buy, may I point out that they are still making more Munto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
I think I'll echo Random32 and also ask you what do you mean by mainstream and uninspired?

I'm really interested if you can come up with an unbiased definition of both (considering how biased the start of your sentence was)...
... mainstream anime fans who buy any uninspired product... should be the complete sentence, but I thought it would be clear to everyone based on sales (quoted below), and their to discontinue the cooperation with Key (as they said), and the turbulent relationship with Kadokawa. But obviously not everyone is in my head

When their owners see that K-On! and Lucky Star were so popular, it would be clear (to him) to push similar projects. It would also be cheaper to acquire the rights for the adaption, and a bigger share from the production revenue. And let's not forget that the production itself would be cheaper. Also the studio does not have a solid base or freelancers on the top of their production, unlike other studios, and financial matters seem to play a bigger role than artistic pursuits, they used to have (probably still do) a more stable "lower" executive power employees who usually (but definitely not always) maintain the animation quality.

Quote:
Kyoto Animation
43064 ** K-ON!
41038 *8 Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu
29146 12 Lucky☆Star
24808 *8 CLANNAD
24346 *6 AIR
19052 *8 Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu ("New Animation")
19884 *8 CLANNAD AFTER STORY
17253 *8 Kanon 2006
14641 *3 Suzumiya Haruhi-chan to Nyoron☆Churuya-san
*8917 *6 Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu
*4833 *7 Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid
***** *5 Sora wo Miageru Shoujo no Hitomi ni Utsuru Sekai (Munto TV)
Now about Nichijou, I have not watched it myself, but being praised by moe-loving blogs and friends, while condemned by moe-hating blogs and friends, makes me believe that it was a safe compromise between sales and cost.

As for their production values, I disagree, their TV productions have become cheaper, a lot cheaper over the years.

I hope that's clear now, and unbiased enough
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Old 2012-05-26, 06:39   Link #1065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Got an example?

@outofxzero: Hyouka I'll give you but K-On less otaku oriented? Granted it isn't constantly referencing otaku stuff, but it seems pretty damn targetted with moe otaku heavily in mind. Now I'm sure somebody will come tearing in here and quote me some sales statistics and try to illustrate how they show it must have appealed more broadly but frankly I just don't see it. In fact I'd argue that Hyouka boring as I find it feels like the first attempt by Kyoani since Second Raid to reach out beyond their moe otaku base.
Well, K-on isn't directed towards moe otaku exclusively given the Disney stuff and the female audience, I'd say. Then again, I didn't see any moe in it so I guess I am not the best source.

And yea, Hyouka seems to be some attempt at doing something else. I'm just trying to seek out what that is, but I will find out soon enough.
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Old 2012-05-26, 08:13   Link #1066
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
As for wanting to appeal to whoever will buy, may I point out that they are still making more Munto.
If you say this because of my previous post, then I apologise. I was just spouting nonsense for the fun of it, there is no extra Munto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
...As for their production values, I disagree, their TV productions have become cheaper, a lot cheaper over the years...
C'mon dude, you say this and yet you admit to not having watched their 2nd latest TV work. Nichijou ain't exactly budget type animation like you're making it out to be if you actually gave it a small chance. Here's a relatively short MAD that might even give you a chuckle or two
YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

And if the following things in Hyouka are all examples of production values getting cheaper, then everything may as well be cheap nowadays.
- animating the back displays on the digital style clocks.


- unlimited frame works. (Yes that was all for the one 30 sec scene)


- Cloud porn.
(And yes I mean that. You had Snow porn in Kanon, Hair porn in almost all of their works and in the opening scenes of Hyouka ep5, they gave us Cloud porn.)
See the clouds and rays of light shining through in the backdrop? Those were moving.

See the puddles? The clouds were reflected in the puddles too. Moving.

And guess what? The shadows from the cloud cover were moving too. On top of both the puddle reflection and original cloud movement itself.
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Last edited by brocko; 2012-05-26 at 08:34.
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Old 2012-05-26, 08:27   Link #1067
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Nichijou and Hyouka must've too expensive and expressive for their own good if you ask anyone that know about this, make you wonder why KyoAni not spending all of this resource to something that more appropriate for this kind of hardwork.

Btw Hyouka still got bashed? its started slow but its turned out to be one of better show this season.

EDIT: Its just crossed in my mind after entering to this thread, there is many demand for FMP new season, but does KyoAni still have mechanical animator on their side after many years of absence making that needed mechanical animator?

I thought many of them already leaving the studio.
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Old 2012-05-26, 08:46   Link #1068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
Nichijou and Hyouka must've too expensive and expressive for their own good if you ask anyone that know about this, make you wonder why KyoAni not spending all of this resource to something that more appropriate for this kind of hardwork.

Btw Hyouka still got bashed? its started slow but its turned out to be one of better show this season.
Episode 5 was great, but man were the first few episodes boring and pretty unimpressive. I was largely kept interested because of great visuals and dem purple eyes... which btw is starting to fade out in effect. Real test begins with the next arc though and whether it keeps up and if the arc finisher ep was just a one trick pony.

And one of the better this season? In a season with Fate Zero, Sakamichi no Apollon, Space Brothers and Lupin III? No... just no.
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Old 2012-05-26, 08:53   Link #1069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
Nichijou and Hyouka must've too expensive and expressive for their own good if you ask anyone that know about this, make you wonder why KyoAni not spending all of this resource to something that more appropriate for this kind of hardwork.
I agree with you on what I bolded, at least when it comes to Nichijou. I honestly felt KyoAni was too expressive with its animation there, often causing the animation to overshadowed the punchline of various sight gags.

With Hyouka, I think they've handled things pretty well.

But if there's one animation studio that actually overdoes animation sometimes, it's KyoAni.

You can almost feel that their animators desperately would like to do something that really would call for this level of animation.


I think the perfect property for KyoAni would be something like Ga-Rei Zero. A show with moe characters/character designs (because credit where it's do - almost nobody does "moe" as well as KyoAni does, imo), but also loads of scintillating action scenes.

It would be nice if one day KyoAni tried their hand at something like that.
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Old 2012-05-26, 09:19   Link #1070
fertygo
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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
Episode 5 was great, but man were the first few episodes boring and pretty unimpressive. I was largely kept interested because of great visuals and dem purple eyes... which btw is starting to fade out in effect. Real test begins with the next arc though and whether it keeps up and if the arc finisher ep was just a one trick pony.

And one of the better this season? In a season with Fate Zero, Sakamichi no Apollon, Space Brothers and Lupin III? No... just no.
Well you only listing four show there, Its not a stretch to put Hyouka behind those show... Lupin III slow down after excellent start though, personally I put Hyouka above its after the recent batch of episode, and you forgetting Tsuritama.

Ranking stuff aside... Hyouka does became better when its telling more than just trivial mysteries (eps 4-5, although eps 3 is also better than previous two and the start of that arc)

But its seems that's the formula of the anime, we gonna get all of that "boring" trivial mysteries for 2-4 episode and we get the interesting stuff after its, only KyoAni visual eyecandy that will save us from boredom for those episode lol.

Talking about Eyecandy, I'm impressed with Shuuhei's Okude debut as art director in Hyouka he only responsible for background in his previous three KyoAni work, I wonder if this is show how good KyoAni nurturing their worker for eventually take higher role if they capable of it.
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Old 2012-05-26, 09:27   Link #1071
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I was comparing the studio works over time, not with other studios. They reuse animation, photoshop photographs for backgrounds and have dodgy in-between frames a lot more. Compare the last FMP or the first Haruhi with both K-On, second Haruhi, or Lucky Star. Whether ones likes these or not is another subject, than wether they cut down production costs.

One thing though I can agree is what 3xR said about the studio trying to (according to me) / succeeding in (according to others) overshadowing everything with their visuals.

And in between, I also want more Haruhi and FMP, whether it looks good or not, but animated by whoever respects the story and would never conceive a travesty like E8.
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Old 2012-05-26, 09:42   Link #1072
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Nichijou more expensive and harder to produce than Lucky Star, at the very least I can say that with confident.
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Old 2012-05-26, 10:02   Link #1073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think the perfect property for KyoAni would be something like Ga-Rei Zero. A show with moe characters/character designs (because credit where it's do - almost nobody does "moe" as well as KyoAni does, imo), but also loads of scintillating action scenes.

It would be nice if one day KyoAni tried their hand at something like that.
I somehow doubt that considering they said they would never do anything mecha-related again after doing FMP:TSR. They don't like things that are difficult to animate and action is hard to do 'properly' . Those things are better in the hands of ufotable and Sunrise or a director + crew known to do that. KyoAni have established a brand targetted to specific content and I doubt they will stray from that while they aren't under any financial pressure to. Despite the shortcomings of Nichijou, Disappearance and London did more than enough to offset that in the financial sense. And I'd imagine that they would get a share of the revenue from K-ON merchandise. And that comparison seems rather misplaced - Ga-Rei-Zero was sought after for its body count, gore factor and cold, clinical exectuion laced with black humour. That's what paying fans for that title have told me numerous times. Those aren't traits you would expect from a title from the KyoAni brand.

Ambition/risk during continued financial volatility at a domestic and international level is unlikely. They had a formula/brand that works - why would they stray from it? This industry is primarily about what sells, even if the creators aren't that enthused by what is selling. Authors, writers and directors will adapt to the times and trends to remain relevant and financial. This isn't an altruistic industry. It's one of the most calculating and pragmatic out there, which is justified to quite a degree. Considering the majority of studios out there would gladly take the windfall that has come KyoAni's way in recent years, their approach is justified in the long run, even if their mismanagement of certain titles is beyond laughable at times. If paying fans enable them to stay in business, the fans get what they deserve. KyoAni would only ever budge if there was a several years period where fans voted by keeping their wallets shut. That's the one thing studios at the top end will listen to.
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Old 2012-05-26, 12:05   Link #1074
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Nichijou was definitely well animated. People might misunderstand due to the fact that it doesn't feature the realism typical of other KyoAni works.

But realism does not quality animation make. It's about the fluidity of motion, and nichijou had a lot of that.
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Old 2012-05-26, 14:45   Link #1075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
Nichijou more expensive and harder to produce than Lucky Star, at the very least I can say that with confident.
Throwing tons of money and animation quality into a show doesn't necessarily make it better, see Triple_R's post for an example of how. I think this threads been over this one though and how Kyoani's animation can be a little too busy at times to no real advantage. Simply put people put way to damn much emphasis on how well a show is animated and not how entertaining, approachable or interesting it actually is though of course this is different for me. While some think Kyoani is gods gift to anime frankly I've found all but 2 of their shows almost completely unwatchable by my standards and have actually finished about as many as a result.

As for best shows of the current season, I don't want to argue this point cause of differing tastes and all, but I'll just say for me Hyouka isn't even on the radar right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
Episode 5 was great, but man were the first few episodes boring and pretty unimpressive. I was largely kept interested because of great visuals and dem purple eyes... which btw is starting to fade out in effect. Real test begins with the next arc though and whether it keeps up and if the arc finisher ep was just a one trick pony.
This is an interesting observation because from what I've watched of Kyoani shows which is admittedly pretty sporadic (but I've been there for the early parts and ending parts of just about all of them) and what I've found, and keep in mind this is just an opinion, is that they often have a tendency to book end their shows (and sometimes character arcs) with strong episodes in order to create the maximum possible hype going in and out and the feeling that the show has been special/exceptional when really only the beginnings and endings have been exceptional in any way while the intermediary parts were pretty well just fluff. K-On!, Kanon, Haruhi 2009, Clannad After Story and Lucky Star all had this issue going on.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2012-05-26 at 15:10.
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Old 2012-05-26, 15:56   Link #1076
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Throwing tons of money and animation quality into a show doesn't necessarily make it better, see Triple_R's post for an example of how.
There is a line between not enough money thrown at visuals and too much. The vast majority of studios could put a lot more effort into making things look nice, KyoAni occasionally overshoots (Nichijyou), but for the most part, they are pretty close to perfect.

Quote:
Simply put people put way to damn much emphasis on how well a show is animated and not how entertaining, approachable or interesting it actually is though of course this is different for me.
There is nothing that is universally entertaining or interesting, thus KyoAni needs to pick who they want to cater to. Considering that Kadokawa likes using KyoAni adaptations to promote the originals, I would say that KyoAni tries to appeal to what they think fans of the original work would considering entertaining and interesting.

As for whether Hyouka is the best this season? I would say its a close second to Acchi Kocchi.
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Old 2012-05-26, 16:34   Link #1077
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
This is an interesting observation because from what I've watched of Kyoani shows which is admittedly pretty sporadic (but I've been there for the early parts and ending parts of just about all of them) and what I've found, and keep in mind this is just an opinion, is that they often have a tendency to book end their shows (and sometimes character arcs) with strong episodes in order to create the maximum possible hype going in and out and the feeling that the show has been special/exceptional when really only the beginnings and endings have been exceptional in any way while the intermediary parts were pretty well just fluff. K-On!, Kanon, Haruhi 2009, Clannad After Story and Lucky Star all had this issue going on.
I think the emphasis on a properly done ending is probably a good thing. That said, I don't think the middle episodes are necessarily as weak as you might think. For instance, Clannad After Story actually had very strong middle episodes (particularly the latter half of the series after he graduates from school). In fact, I actually thought the ending was less good, largely due to the deus ex machina at the end.
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Old 2012-05-26, 18:12   Link #1078
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Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
Talking about Eyecandy, I'm impressed with Shuuhei's Okude debut as art director in Hyouka he only responsible for background in his previous three KyoAni work, I wonder if this is show how good KyoAni nurturing their worker for eventually take higher role if they capable of it.
It's a promotion for sure, but bear in mind that art direction is simply the next step up from what he was doing before. The role is all about supervising background creation and establishing the specifications (by drawing sample backgrounds and setting the style, tone, and colour palette) for others to follow. The process is more or less isolated from other aspects of anime production.

As for Hyouka, I've been very impressed with the animation and direction. Clannad was the last Kyoto Animation show that I watched beyond an episode or two (although the technical quality of Nichijou Ep. 1 impressed me), and they've made immense strides since then.
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Old 2012-05-26, 18:36   Link #1079
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
I was comparing the studio works over time, not with other studios. They reuse animation, photoshop photographs for backgrounds and have dodgy in-between frames a lot more. Compare the last FMP or the first Haruhi with both K-On, second Haruhi, or Lucky Star. Whether ones likes these or not is another subject, than wether they cut down production costs.
Things definitely took a nose dive around the time of Haruhi 09 due to them trying to bite off more than they could barely chew. But from Nichijou onwards, now that they're working at a more comfortable pace, I think the production values are starting to trend on the upswing again.
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Old 2012-05-26, 20:51   Link #1080
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
There is a line between not enough money thrown at visuals and too much. The vast majority of studios could put a lot more effort into making things look nice, KyoAni occasionally overshoots (Nichijyou), but for the most part, they are pretty close to perfect.


There is nothing that is universally entertaining or interesting, thus KyoAni needs to pick who they want to cater to. Considering that Kadokawa likes using KyoAni adaptations to promote the originals, I would say that KyoAni tries to appeal to what they think fans of the original work would considering entertaining and interesting.

As for whether Hyouka is the best this season? I would say its a close second to Acchi Kocchi.
So now you say that there's no such thing as universally entertaining but then go on to summarily declare a show the best of the season. Why not save yourself the trouble of conflicting talking points and declare it your favorite? For example my favorite of the season is Lupin III.
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