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Old 2009-01-27, 13:53   Link #1
AjayLikesGaming
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Question to Fansubbers

[i'm not sure if this is the right place to post this]



I download a load of fansubbed (hard encoded) anime and i like to burn it to DVD, but i have a problem. I can only view it on 16:9 screens. Anytime i try to watch it on a tv with a smaller aspect ratio, i get a load of subtitles cut off. Why is this?

Is this due to the fact that the disc is burnt with a 16:9 aspect ratio or what?

hope you can help x
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Old 2009-01-27, 14:14   Link #2
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagami-kun View Post
[i'm not sure if this is the right place to post this]



I download a load of fansubbed (hard encoded) anime and i like to burn it to DVD, but i have a problem. I can only view it on 16:9 screens. Anytime i try to watch it on a tv with a smaller aspect ratio, i get a load of subtitles cut off. Why is this?

Is this due to the fact that the disc is burnt with a 16:9 aspect ratio or what?

hope you can help x
It's called overscan. And the subs being cut off is due to the majority of fansubbers setting the dialogue styles way too low.

Maybe you can appeal to the rest of the fansubbing community to stop setting the subs so low that they dry-hump the bottom of screen 24/7, but I believe that would fall of deaf ears since ppl have forgotten to how basic fundamentals of subtitle legibility long ago.
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Old 2009-01-27, 14:52   Link #3
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
It's called overscan. And the subs being cut off is due to the majority of fansubbers setting the dialogue styles way too low.

Maybe you can appeal to the rest of the fansubbing community to stop setting the subs so low that they dry-hump the bottom of screen 24/7, but I believe that would fall of deaf ears since ppl have forgotten to how basic fundamentals of subtitle legibility long ago.
It's probably because most people are watching on their computers and people tend to forget that some people do actually watch on a TV...

but IMO it's better than putting the subs too high:



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Old 2009-01-27, 15:25   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
It's probably because most people are watching on their computers and people tend to forget that some people do actually watch on a TV...

but IMO it's better than putting the subs too high:



Oh, sure, make fun of the fact that a Japanese doujinshi group actually cared enough about the world to go through the effort of putting real english subs on its long sought after product, and they put the margins a bit large.

Please, there's better targets to pick on then Maikaze. Have a little heart (or a third eye).
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Old 2009-01-27, 16:30   Link #5
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
It's probably because most people are watching on their computers and people tend to forget that some people do actually watch on a TV...

but IMO it's better than putting the subs too high:



too high is too high, too low is too low. But placing it at the area just out of overscan is right. if you are looking at the bottom of the screen the whole time to read, you are NOT watching the anime anymore. the subs need to be placed within the area of activity just a bit so that while you read you are seeing the show as well.

Before you retort on this, why not give it a whirl. Par attention to where and what you are seeing as you watch with different placements. You will notice when they hug the bottom you are not seeing their faces when they talk. Keeping these items in factor while styling is VERY important. Take a clue from the common placement of subs in movies, CC's in TV shows, and on DVD's. You will notice they are aligned at a started height which is found to be the optimal location for viewing.
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Old 2009-01-27, 16:38   Link #6
cyth
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While the margin on the image above seems unusually high and takes a deal of adjusting, I believe it puts less of a strain on my eyes. Tried watching a certain sci-fi show like that by overriding ASS commands because I was focusing too little on the visuals and too much on the subtitles due to heavy dialogue.

On a related note, has anyone considered positioning subtitles around the screen, closer to where the action is, similar to what NBC has been doing with Heroes?

Granted, this would require timers and editors to work more closely together, it could be a fansubbing job of its own or just part of typesetting.
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Old 2009-01-27, 16:46   Link #7
getfresh
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Originally Posted by Toua View Post
While the margin on the image above seems unusually high and takes a deal of adjusting, I believe it puts less of a strain on my eyes. Tried watching a certain sci-fi show like that by overriding ASS commands because I was focusing too little on the visuals and too much on the subtitles due to heavy dialogue.

On a related note, has anyone considered positioning subtitles around the screen, closer to where the action is, similar to what NBC has been doing with Heroes?

Granted, this would require timers and editors to work more closely together, it could be a fansubbing job of its own or just part of typesetting.
Bad idea, no. This isn't a comic book. That is not conducive to "other lang" viewers.
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Old 2009-01-27, 17:18   Link #8
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Neither is Heroes, and it seemed to work well, although their translation style and dialogue dynamic was quite different from typical anime shows.
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Old 2009-01-27, 17:42   Link #9
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well, check in any compositing program, (After effects, combustion, nuke, shake....) there are 2 safe zones.

One of action (10%) and one for titles (20%).

The title zone is where subtitles should be in order to be seen anywhere.

But well, that's mainly 'cause of CRTs....
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Old 2009-01-27, 21:13   Link #10
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Oh, sure, make fun of the fact that a Japanese doujinshi group actually cared enough about the world to go through the effort of putting real english subs on its long sought after product, and they put the margins a bit large.

Please, there's better targets to pick on then Maikaze. Have a little heart (or a third eye).
It's affectionate harassment. I'm a fan
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Old 2009-01-27, 22:20   Link #11
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getfresh is right
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Old 2009-01-27, 23:24   Link #12
neothe0ne
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Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
due to the majority of fansubbers setting the dialogue styles way too low.
Screenshots of several popular shows displaying this problem? I don't even understand what the problem is, if your video device is overscanning that's not the fault of the video.
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Old 2009-01-27, 23:42   Link #13
Arm
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Originally Posted by neothe0ne View Post
Screenshots of several popular shows displaying this problem? I don't even understand what the problem is, if your video device is overscanning that's not the fault of the video.
I don't think he solely meant overscan, but also reading convenience.

http://www.ji-hi.net/gundam00s2/Conc...04-dialog1.png

http://www.ji-hi.net/gundam00s2/Shin...04-dialog1.png

You can see Menclave's subs are hugging the bottom, while Shinsen has raised them.
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Old 2009-01-28, 02:51   Link #14
AjayLikesGaming
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generally i dont have a problem with them being off the screen at the bottom, but on the sides, i lose a word or few letters at end end.

if i burnt my disc at a matching aspect ratio to my tv would this fix the issue?
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Old 2009-01-28, 03:44   Link #15
Scab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neothe0ne View Post
I don't even understand what the problem is, if your video device is overscanning that's not the fault of the video.
Every TV has some degree of overscan (with the exception of most VGA inputs where PC signals are expected) and it's very much intentional. There are proper (p19, p21) standards (p3, p5) for action-safe and graphics-safe areas. A fansubber's inability to take this into account is nothing other than his shortcoming and in effect a fault in his work. If someone doesn't want to care about TV playback then I guess that's their prerogative, but blaming the playback equipment is just ignorant.
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Old 2009-01-28, 03:50   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scab View Post
Every TV has some degree of overscan (with the exception of most VGA inputs where PC signals are expected) and it's very much intentional. There are proper (p19, p21) standards (p3, p5) for action-safe and graphics-safe areas. A fansubber's inability to take this into account is nothing other than his shortcoming and in effect a fault in his work. If someone doesn't want to care about TV playback then I guess that's their prerogative, but blaming the playback equipment is just ignorant.
My Toshiba Regza has a "perfect 1080p" mode which shows with zero overscan. Very nice because I use it as my computer monitor.

Frankly the whole concept of overscan itself is outdated, there is no engineering reason for a modern television to have it, and as computers and TVs continue to get closer to one another it will disappear just like interlaced video is slowly disappearing.
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Old 2009-01-28, 04:11   Link #17
Scab
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That's quite some time into the future. I'll go ahead and assume that what's released these days is also supposed to be played back these days, not many years from now. ^^;
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Old 2009-01-28, 04:13   Link #18
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Originally Posted by Scab View Post
That's quite some time into the future. I'll go ahead and assume that what's released these days is also supposed to be played back these days, not many years from now. ^^;
But to take your argument a bit further, shouldn't fansubbers also release their shows interlaced and at 30 fps?

After all, almost no televisions can display 24 fps progressive video properly. Shouldn't we stick to the NTSC standard?
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Old 2009-01-28, 04:39   Link #19
Scab
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That's not really true. There are plenty of digital displays that support 24p and the others don't exhibit issues nearly as dramatic as cutting off parts of the subtitles. I'm really not trying to tell anyone here to create their stuff for TV, just pointing out that ignoring established standards on where it's safe to place subtitles can, unsurprisingly, cause problems reading them on a TV. If you don't care about that, that's up to you.
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Old 2009-01-28, 04:40   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scab View Post
Every TV has some degree of overscan
yes and any halfway decent one bought in the last ten years or so also has some way of disabling it or zooming out the image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scab View Post
There are plenty of digital displays that support 24p
not nearly as many as the ones which support underscanning

not that I'm trying to argue that using no margins at all is a good thing, in fact you should usually adhere to the standard title safe areas not because it makes stuff overscan safe but because it makes it easier to read; I'm just saying that your arguments are flawed
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
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01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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