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Old 2009-02-07, 04:03   Link #21
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M!ss JaPaN View Post


I like ur Thread

Well, I am Japanese, and I am not sure if your correct or not, is still the point of view for you, but my point of view, I think that is true about you because I know the Chinese and Japanese in general of Asian .. And not see them most of the films are japanese.. but they can be either Chinese or Korean ..

Well it depends on how you speak to others, right? The accent that you use can make a whole lot of difference. It goes as far as stereotyping of Japanese people speaking expressively all the time, or even Asians acting cute (DON'T go further, the number local girls doing so are giong to make me puke) to classify themselves as a Japanese "kawaii no onna".

There is no real way to identify an Asian from a specific, for example a Singaporean and Malaysian could use their pidgin English of "what the f***, lah" in a similarly arrogant tone, a Bruneian Malay and an Indonesian Malay could speak their vernaculars with VERY little difference, a cute looking Japanese and Taiwanese girl could cause a similarly life-threatening blood loss in the on-looking perverts.

Back to Hollywood's view, I would say it is still stereotypical like every other entertainment industry. Not a wonder that their idea of Japanese is similar to ninjas, Graham Bushido, and sexually provocative females (probably one of the reasons why bringing up "I like Japanese females" would immediately classify you as an " extreme pervert").
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Old 2009-02-07, 05:01   Link #22
M!ss JaPaN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Well it depends on how you speak to others, right? The accent that you use can make a whole lot of difference. It goes as far as stereotyping of Japanese people speaking expressively all the time, or even Asians acting cute (DON'T go further, the number local girls doing so are giong to make me puke) to classify themselves as a Japanese "kawaii no onna".
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post

There is no real way to identify an Asian from a specific, for example a Singaporean and Malaysian could use their pidgin English of "what the f***, lah" in a similarly arrogant tone, a Bruneian Malay and an Indonesian Malay could speak their vernaculars with VERY little difference, a cute looking Japanese and Taiwanese girl could cause a similarly life-threatening blood loss in the on-looking perverts.

Back to Hollywood's view, I would say it is still stereotypical like every other entertainment industry. Not a wonder that their idea of Japanese is similar to ninjas, Graham Bushido, and sexually provocative females (probably one of the reasons why bringing up "I like Japanese females" would immediately classify you as an " extreme pervert").


Well .. Nothing to say here

Your words are true, most suffer from the problem of the Japanese pronunciation of English letters and words correctly, and I am with you in every word u said ..

See ya ..~!
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Old 2009-02-07, 06:40   Link #23
sa547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AyumiDesu View Post
Is it so hard for American people to accept Japanese actors and actress in movie? My boss (at the sushi restaurant I work at) told me that American people are not good at reading so many subtitles. That's why they remake a lot of Japanese movies into American Hollywood epics.
From my observations, it's a very long shot for a Japanese actress to have her own permanent meal ticket punched in Hollywood, in which she must comfortably adjust to a very different -- and sometimes brutal (such as tabloids, backstabbers and studio politics) -- working environment, and have a true command of the English language -- a prime factor lacking in most Japanese actors and actresses despite all of their brilliant talent.

Unlike actors Watanabe and Takei (which managed to connect well because of their mastery of English), the most recent actresses (Kuriyama and Kikuchi, for example) had their only one shot so far (Kill Bill and Babel, respectively), but barely going for a second chance, and it's a rare achievement if they actually get accepted in Tinseltown for life.

Regarding the issue of not being able to read subtitles, the highest-grossing subtitled film was the Passion of the Christ, but then having myself much experience watching WOWOW on my local cable TV provider, many Japanese films, IMHO, are art-house types requiring a higher level of intellect.

The original Ring needed a high degree of intellect of the average Japanese film-viewer to understand the extent and the meaning of Sadako's terror; and the American remake, lowers the intellectual threshold, and then "localized" to make it more entertaining to Americans, who aren't sitting there in the movie-house to ponder.
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Old 2009-02-07, 13:00   Link #24
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M!ss JaPaN View Post


Well .. Nothing to say here

Your words are true, most suffer from the problem of the Japanese pronunciation of English letters and words correctly, and I am with you in every word u said ..

See ya ..~!
Lol you should just stay in this forums. I rarely see any of the Japanese locals on English boards like this. Don't worry, most of us had our "golden orb(s)" bashed in one way or another like Leopard, while a large population of residents here are crazy in one way or another...

The English pronunciation does not fit well with the Asians as I have observed. Sometimes when I speak with my Japanophile friends (usually Bemani, Anime/manga, fashion inclined) I mis-speak gila(crazy in Malay) with gira (sparkle in Japanese?) when talking too fast. There is little difference in "r" and "l" used for most Asian languages, and with the locals having a tendency to mix different kinds of languages and dialects together, miscommunication tends to happen in long conversations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
The original Ring needed a high degree of intellect of the average Japanese film-viewer to understand the extent and the meaning of Sadako's terror; and the American remake, lowers the intellectual threshold, and then "localized" to make it more entertaining to Americans, who aren't sitting there in the movie-house to ponder.
The Ring has been brought over to US in many ways other than movie scripts. You forgot about the PC game F.E.A.R.
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Old 2009-02-07, 15:16   Link #25
0utf0xZer0
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I tend to agree with the general consensus that Hollywood does it because most Americans can't tell Japanese apart from other asians. Heck, I pay a lot of attention to the many asian girls at my university, and I can still only pick the Japanese ones out if they're speaking Japanese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa547
From my observations, it's a very long shot for a Japanese actress to have her own permanent meal ticket punched in Hollywood, in which she must comfortably adjust to a very different -- and sometimes brutal (such as tabloids, backstabbers and studio politics) -- working environment, and have a true command of the English language -- a prime factor lacking in most Japanese actors and actresses despite all of their brilliant talent.
I'd be curious to know whether there's less similarity between the sounds that make up Japanese and English and those of some other Asian languages and English. I remember one girl in my anime club thinking that Japanese might have an easier time learning French because it had closer sounds to Japanese than English, but I don't know if this is true or not (this came up in response to the French in Daughter of Twenty Faces, which she seemed to think was far better than the English used in most anime).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
My wife is pure 100% japanese in heritage but has been mistaken as korean, chinese, vietnamese, hawaiian, polynesian, filipina, mexican, and even *italian* once --- mostly by people of those ethnics and those nationalities (though, in deference, the "italian" guess was a little old white lady).
What, no Inuit?

My dad was on some sports team in high school and remembers how on one trip to the US, a Japanese guy on his team decided to try and see if he could fool the Americans into thinking he was an eskimo (to use the commonly known but politically incorrect term) just by wearing a really heavy coat.
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Old 2009-02-07, 15:52   Link #26
ezara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M!ss JaPaN View Post
Well, I am Japanese, and I am not sure if your correct or not, is still the point of view for you, but my point of view, I think that is true about you because I know the Chinese and Japanese in general of Asian .. And not see them most of the films are japanese.. but they can be either Chinese or Korean ..
This is very interesting. You are Japanese and Ayumi is also Japanese.

Yet we have two very different opinions here between yourselves.

I remember a few weeks ago, Ayumi went to Chinatown with her friends (myself included).
The elderly Chinese lady at the counter started talking in Chinese to her.
Ayumi continued to speak in English to her, "No, no. I want zis breado!"
But the lady continued to speak in Cantonese and I could totally tell she was saying
"Yeah, yeah, you want this one, sounds good. Ok~!"
Ayumi didn't seem insulted or anything.
I think it was because the lady was treating her like an equal.
Like how she would talk to her daughter, or her Chinese friends.

But I also have lots of memories where people (usually Caucasians)
have looked at Ayumi with total indifference and said something like
"yeah, Chinese, Japanese, whatever. Oops. Sorry."

Ayumi, in my opinion, is alot more forgiving.
But I can see where the pain comes from.
I think it comes from indifference.

Sometimes, this is the "American" way.
To think "Hey, I'm okay. You're okay."
Even when things really aren't okay.

Sometimes, this approach works. Sometimes, yes, it's good to
move on and not make a big deal. But sometimes, it's just
another way of being lazy, of not putting in the effort.

Of not meeting someone halfway.
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Old 2009-02-07, 16:29   Link #27
Nerroth
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One thing that might get lost in the mix is that not all white people are alike, either.


I'm from Ireland, though with a bit of an odd accent - and it's very easy for people to neither notice nor care the difference between myself and other white English-speaking caucasians.

And a few generations back, certain Irish people would get a rather less than tolerant reaction in some parts of the world (before the Second World War, Toronto was known as the Belfast of Canada... and not as a compliment).

Sadly, not all of that has gone away entirely, either... though in my own experiences, I seem to have been lucky enough not to catch much if any of it myself.


You don't have to be visible to be a minority.
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Old 2009-02-07, 18:59   Link #28
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezara View Post

This is very interesting. You are Japanese and Ayumi is also Japanese.

Yet we have two very different opinions here between yourselves.

I remember a few weeks ago, Ayumi went to Chinatown with her friends (myself included).
The elderly Chinese lady at the counter started talking in Chinese to her.
Ayumi continued to speak in English to her, "No, no. I want zis breado!"
But the lady continued to speak in Cantonese and I could totally tell she was saying
"Yeah, yeah, you want this one, sounds good. Ok~!"
Ayumi didn't seem insulted or anything.
I think it was because the lady was treating her like an equal.
Like how she would talk to her daughter, or her Chinese friends.

But I also have lots of memories where people (usually Caucasians)
have looked at Ayumi with total indifference and said something like
"yeah, Chinese, Japanese, whatever. Oops. Sorry."

Ayumi, in my opinion, is alot more forgiving.
But I can see where the pain comes from.
I think it comes from indifference.

Sometimes, this is the "American" way.
To think "Hey, I'm okay. You're okay."
Even when things really aren't okay.

Sometimes, this approach works. Sometimes, yes, it's good to
move on and not make a big deal. But sometimes, it's just
another way of being lazy, of not putting in the effort.

Of not meeting someone halfway.
I think she is just unhappy at the somewhat stereotyped negative connotation placed on Japanese in general, especially their females as sex(ually provocative) objects.

Well each is entitled to their opinion unless it gets out of hand, like Iran/Muslim radicals vs US and their democracy-inclined supporters. Then shall we proceed to to deliver a hard STFU in their face. *

But then again it depends on the situation. Ayumi might have lived outside Japan for quite sometime and thus be accustomed to such ideas and had chosen to ignore them. Compared to a Japanese who had lived in their homeland, they might have a higher level of tolerance towards such things.

*This is my opinion. Feel free to debate on it. I am tired of reading such things in the news DAILY for the past 8 years.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-02-07, 20:20   Link #29
Shinoto
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Sean Connery is Scottish, not English. Sorry Bond. Asking why they use Chinese or Korean people instead of Japanese isn't really a good compliant. Since casting is done more on a white canvas with some outlines. It happens to all groups and all casting. Normally you want the best actor possible. If the best actor turns out to be Chinese, when the role is to play a Japanese man. Well you can make a choice, Pick a worse actor but Japanese, or the better one whom is Chinese
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Old 2009-02-07, 20:35   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinoto View Post
Normally you want the best actor possible. If the best actor turns out to be Chinese, when the role is to play a Japanese man. Well you can make a choice, Pick a worse actor but Japanese, or the better one whom is Chinese
However some people don't see it that way. Memoirs Of A Geisha (2005) irks both the Chinese and Japanese audience with Zhang Ziyi and Gong Li in the leading roles. They were both good actresses, but the Japanese wonders why were some Chinese cast in roles to represent an important part of their culture, and the Chinese is enraged because their top actresses is sent out to play as whore and slut.

And more recently, John Woo would have cast Ken Watanabe as Cao Cao in Red Cliff, but he want to avoided offending his Chinese Audience (where majority of the box office taking is), so he search out a veteran main land actor.
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Old 2009-02-07, 20:47   Link #31
AyumiDesu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samari View Post
If a Chinese actress can play the role of a Japanese actress spot on and does a marvelous job, then what is the big deal? We're talking about movies, not political statements.

If a Chinese actress plays the role of a Japanese actress "spot on", it is my experience that both the Chinese and Japanese audiences watching it are extremely uncomfortable. I mean, behind these audiences are just totally different cultures.

One time, my ex-roommate asked me how China and Japan are really any different. I was so speechless...

I just said. . .we are different.
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Old 2009-02-07, 20:53   Link #32
rio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post

I'd be curious to know whether there's less similarity between the sounds that make up Japanese and English and those of some other Asian languages and English. I remember one girl in my anime club thinking that Japanese might have an easier time learning French because it had closer sounds to Japanese than English, but I don't know if this is true or not (this came up in response to the French in Daughter of Twenty Faces, which she seemed to think was far better than the English used in most anime).



For Japanese people, English is the hardest language to learn because of the differences of pronouciation, and structures.

English is one of the languages that have phonemes the most , and Japanese has that the least.

So, above all, Japanese people are very hard to pronounce English.


About the topic, i don't care especially that Americans use other countries' people in movies of Japanese stories. They just don't focus on the people's country, but focus on the story itself, so if there are adequate actors that fit the characters' image, it's natural that they use them.

Especially Japanese actors who can speak English fruently ,are hard to find .
Chinese and Koreans are better at English , so they are more likely to be chosen.

I also don't care especially if European movies use Americans. I can't tell Europeans' national countries by only looking at their faces, like i can't tell Asians' ones . i am Japanese, but i can't tell who is Chinese ,and Korean ,and Japanese among Asians.

So, i think it's natural that Americans can't tell Japanese among Asians, and don't care especially that they use other countries' people in movies of Japanese stories.
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Last edited by rio; 2009-02-07 at 21:18.
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Old 2009-02-07, 21:04   Link #33
Nerroth
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Sometimes I wonder whether or not part of the issue within each region is the relative lack of focus one often sees on what the peoples of the region have in common, rather than what separates them.

If you only focus on the last one hundred years or so worth of history between Japan, China and Korea, you may get a very different overall view on the kind of relations you might expect to see than if you try to step back and take a longer view at the links, divisions, ebbs and flows that have been present between the various states that have come and gone over the last 1500 years or so in East Asia.

(A good look at this can be seen here - which shows the evolution of trade and political relations over a span of a thousand years or so.)


Sadly, this happens all too often in that part of the wider continent whose people are more commonly referred to back in Ireland or the UK as being 'Asian' - namely South Asia. Balancing the interests and aspirations of many various groups has never been easy, but the consequences of failure to do so have been all too evident.
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Old 2009-02-07, 21:23   Link #34
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
Sadly, this happens all too often in that part of the wider continent whose people are more commonly referred to back in Ireland or the UK as being 'Asian' - namely South Asia.
This is the reason why I try to specify East Asian when referring to what most North Americans would refer to as Asian on message boards. I'm not that good at remembering to do so, though.
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Old 2009-02-07, 21:27   Link #35
MakubeX2
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I like to ask can you tell an American from a Canadian physically ?
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Old 2009-02-07, 21:36   Link #36
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It's stupid to guess who is what and who someone originates from. I can understand that people can be upset by people playing people of other ethnicitys or nationalities. But we have British people play American people all the time, it's usually whoever fits the part and can act it the best. If an American can't act the way the director wants they'll get someone from a different country to learn to act like an American. I don't find it annoying, most of the time the people do a really good job in the role so you don't really care where they are from or that they are a bit different.

I can understand if the actress is not doing her best and creating a mockery out of the other country that it can be offensive. But frankly everyone can't tell what ethnicity everyone is from anyway. I can't tell what linage other Americans come from so I don't bother guessing. If I hear them talk in another language fluently or they have an accent I can figure it out. But by looks I can't tell though I have tried studying people's faces and can tell some from others. But it's something that takes lots of work.

Americans usually aren't portrayed that greatly by foreign Countries anyway, and in most anime shows they are portrayed as Blond hair Blue eyed people. When I see more brown haired and brown eyed people in America than Blond and blue eyed. That doesn't bother me even if they sound really badly or don't really fit the part. Because the writer or director didn't know about us that well, though I think writers should do lots of research before writing a story involving another country. And that is pure ignorance and annoying at times.

You can't say that all people are ignorant of other countries, to me I rather just ignore ethnicity and just get to know them and see their talent for who they are not where they come from or what bloodline they are from.

I mean I can understand being annoyed at people who don't try to portray that race or ethnicity correctly. But if they aren't causing shame to that country and have good intentions, why bother being prejudiced about someone else playing that role. It's like saying only an Indian can cook good curry, it doesn't matter what ethnicity they are from so long as they do it justice.

Frankly I wouldn't care if a person who was a different ethnicity got a role for a Caucasian even if it was extremely different looking, so long as they did a great job in the role I would be fine with it. If they did their best and portrayed the character to the bar, why bother about being picky over color differences.

To me every Ethnicity is equal, sure different languages and cultures exist. But we all are humans and we should all try to understand other cultures and languages, but I find it rude if someone who is trying their best is prejudiced against because they are different.

>.>; I think I got a bit carried away with trying to make my point clear, I didn't want to offend anyone with it so I wanted to try to clarify everything I said. But if I still offended someone I am sorry.
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Old 2009-02-07, 23:35   Link #37
Shadow Kira01
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I think this issue of films can be tied back to the issue of the Middle East, more specificaly to that of the war on terrorism. Most Americans view the people living in the Middle East as terrorists because they have brown-colored skin. Or perhaps, not many people can distinguish the differences between the Persians (Iran) and the Arabs (Iraq). Instead, all they see are Muslims and Islams, even though it may not be the case at all.

In a more extreme case, supporters of the McCain camp had went as far as calling the current US president Barack Obama a Muslim, even though he obviously have no relations with the Middle East in any way and also that he isn't a Muslim either. One of the more funnier moments was that senator John McCain on one occasion had to go as far as taking away the microphone of his very own supporter because of false accusations targetting Mr. Obama.

It seems that there are a minority in North America still support the white superiority belief even in this time and age. Such a belief undermines all other non-white individuals and it is actually illegal but nonetheless, there is always people who think that way. It can't be helped. In fact, there was this worry prior to the US election that American citizens might unconsciously vote for McCain instead of Obama over the issue of race but luckily, it didn't turn out that way. US president Obama had won the landslide victory.
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Old 2009-02-08, 01:44   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
This is the reason why I try to specify East Asian when referring to what most North Americans would refer to as Asian on message boards. I'm not that good at remembering to do so, though.
If what you are saying is really the truth (using Asian to represent the far-east Asia people), then they must be considering Asia as consisting of Asians, Indians, and Arabs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
I like to ask can you tell an American from a Canadian physically ?
I believe the only way to differentiate them is to listen to them. And, even then, it may not be that easy. But, in reality, there is no racial gap between an American and a Canadian. The only actual difference is the nationality.
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Old 2009-02-08, 03:27   Link #39
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As far as I can tell, any Asian thats not playing a samurai, triad, or moustached mystic selling gremlins to white kids is a good thing. Asking that Japanese characters are only played by Japanese actors is kinda putting the cart before the horse.

My wife took Memoirs of a Geisha in stride: every time the character would walk into a room with other females, she would go 'Oh this bitch, with her light eyes. Bitch.' It cracked me up, but it was kind of a comment on how damn silly the movie as a whole was. Blue eyed Japanese character played by a Chinese women speaking Chinese accented English = excruciating movie experience, but I guess its a step forward from Jerry Lewis.

Oh and by the way, what Japanese actor since Tsutomu Yamazaki has been like, good enough to want in more movies? j/k
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Old 2009-02-08, 03:49   Link #40
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
If what you are saying is really the truth (using Asian to represent the far-east Asia people), then they must be considering Asia as consisting of Asians, Indians, and Arabs.
As I understand it:
East Asians: referred to as Asian in North America and Oriental in Britain (which is actually considered politically incorrect in North America, although even in North America itself not everyone knows this).
South Asians: referred to as South Asian in North America and Asian in Britain.

Now of course, I'm basing the North American definition here on what I hear in Vancouver, Canada... there could be variation by regions too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
I believe the only way to differentiate them is to listen to them. And, even then, it may not be that easy. But, in reality, there is no racial gap between an American and a Canadian. The only actual difference is the nationality.
Even listening may not help you much, since speech patterns in Vancouver probably have more in common with those in Seattle than the stereotypical Canadian speech patterns, which are more typical of Toronto. And 20% of the Canadian population speaks French as their first language, so...

Despite this, when I travelled in Australia I had a lot of Australians identify me as Canadian, whereas a friend of mine was constantly mistaken for an American when he travelled there.
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