AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-02-09, 05:55   Link #61
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post
Just because race is defined by a small amount of genes doesn't mean it's any less salient.
The point is that genetic variation happens mainly across races.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post
The fact is, race as a biological concept (yes, it is one) is defined solely by a specific set of genes, so arguing that it's very few genes is not a viable argument against the biological existence of race.
So we're diving a group of people into two group s A and B calling them separate races. Then we analyze their DNA. Then we call genes that vary more strongly between the groups than within the groups "race genes" and declare genes that show no correlation with group membership as irrelevant. And finally we use these definitions to prove the genetic foundations of race. Circular argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post
If you consider that the current most widely held definition of species (the "biological species") separates species are being reproductively isolated, you could easily argue that isolated groups in the Amazon rainforest, for example, are not the same species as you and I, much less the same "race".
You can argue as you like but the facts are that these "isolated" tribes never were fully isolated from anything but the attention of the capital's bureaucracy and the global media, that they exist for a very short timespan on evolutionary scales, that their genetical makeup isn't much different from yours and mine (especially if we are talking about a rain forest outside of Africa), and that they are capable of interbreeding with you and me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post
It's very easy to distinguish between most Europeans, though. I'm Chinese myself, and I can distinguish easily between different races of Western European
This is wonderful, because I cannot. All I see on this continent is a vague and smoothly changing average phenotype with more than enough local variation so I wouldn't bet a single beer on anyone's ancestry. The rest is a feedback loop of generalization of stereotypes and biased perception. Which is according to my observation more prevalent among emigrants than inside Europe by the way.
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 13:14   Link #62
Papaya
Sup
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Atlanta
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to Papaya Send a message via MSN to Papaya
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
@Papaya: Sorry, scientifically speaking, there is no such category as 'race' though arguments are periodically attempted. All homo sapiens belong to the same species, and can interbreed and coexist and whatnot, like any other species. The word "race", at best, refers to localizations, or groupings, of people. It's like an ethnicity; political boundaries such as countries don't exist scientifically, but we put them in place in our minds and distinguish ourselves based on them. There is *variation*, of course - but categorization of varieties is always debatable: all of your examples are of variation (and you might try taking this test on guessing "race"). You also seem to be stretching the definition of phylogenetics since isolation amongst humans has never been anywhere near long enough to meet that requirement. Basically, the problem is that the word "race" itself lacks any concise definition.

American Journal of Physical Anthropology
If there's been more recent material released by academia that disputes that, I'd be interested.
That's where you're wrong. Everyone in the research community acknowledges that race discussion and research is off the limits. You need to understand that all science must be funded. In the US, for example, with the APA (since I am a student of psychology), it is illegal by APA rules to do a study on a minority if the study will not benefit the minority. That's why you never see any comparison studies in psychology in intelligence, or something else potentially inflammatory.

The phylogenetic argument has been available for a long time and is in fact still considered one of the great opponents of drawing conclusions. For example, there are aboriginal groups in South America that have been isolated for a long time, which researchers are constantly performing psych research on. However, it's impossible to draw conclusions about core psychological concepts because--guess what, they may be genetically too dissimilar from us being so isolated.

You may also want to direct your attention to the idea of the "subspecies".

Quote:
1. Members of the group are reliably distinguishable from members of other groups. The distinction can be made in any of a wide number of ways, such as: differently shaped leaves, a different number of primary wing feathers, a particular ritual breeding behaviour, relative size of certain bones, different DNA sequences, and so on. There is no set minimum 'amount of difference': the only criterion is that the difference be reliably discernible. In practice, however, very small differences tend to be ignored.
2. The flow of genetic material between the group and other groups is small and sometimes can be expected to remain so because even if the two groups were to be placed together they would not interbreed to any great extent.
As you can see, this corresponds completely to the concept of race.

tl;dr
1. There is no funding support for race differentiation studies, so there is limited research on the subject.
2. All scientists acknowledge in one way or another that race is inherent and biological--however, it is taboo to say so. Try it yourself--ask a researcher about whether or not race exists, and he/she will give you a very uneasy look.
3. Race corresponds to the scientific definition for subspecies, and if you don't buy that, it fits the definition for breed. All of these are prerequisites for speciation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
The point is that genetic variation happens mainly across races.


So we're diving a group of people into two group s A and B calling them separate races. Then we analyze their DNA. Then we call genes that vary more strongly between the groups than within the groups "race genes" and declare genes that show no correlation with group membership as irrelevant. And finally we use these definitions to prove the genetic foundations of race. Circular argument.



You can argue as you like but the facts are that these "isolated" tribes never were fully isolated from anything but the attention of the capital's bureaucracy and the global media, that they exist for a very short timespan on evolutionary scales, that their genetical makeup isn't much different from yours and mine (especially if we are talking about a rain forest outside of Africa), and that they are capable of interbreeding with you and me.


This is wonderful, because I cannot. All I see on this continent is a vague and smoothly changing average phenotype with more than enough local variation so I wouldn't bet a single beer on anyone's ancestry. The rest is a feedback loop of generalization of stereotypes and biased perception. Which is according to my observation more prevalent among emigrants than inside Europe by the way.
1. That's irrelevant. Let's say I give you 1000 marbles, all of different sizes. Most of our marbles are colorless. But five of mine are yellow, and five of yours are black. Now let's define "marblation" as the outward coloration of marbles. Can you clearly say to me that you have the overall same set of 1000 marbles when we define marblation to specifically include color rather than size? No, you can't, and that's the same logical flaw you concede to when you say race cannot be real because there's more variation within races--that variation is not part of the definition of race.

2. I suggest you look up some material on these tribes. As far as I know, I've read the research and you haven't, so here are some relevant papers if you would like to continue this debate:
Dehaene, S., Izard, V., Spelke, E., & Pica, P. (2008). Log or linear? Distinct intuitions of the number scale in Western and Amazonian indigene cultures. Science, 320, 1217 – 1220.
Pica, P., Lemer, C., Izard, V., & Dehaene, S. (2004). Exact and approximate arithmetic in an Amazonian Indigene Group. Science, 306, 499 – 503.
vanMarle, K., & Wynn, K. (2006). Six-month-old infants use analog magnitudes to represent duration. Developmental Science, 9, F41 – F49.
Oliveri, M., Vicario, C. M., Salerno, S., Koch, G., Turriziani, P., Mangano, R., Chillemi, G., & Caltagirone, C. (2008). Perceiving numbers alters time perception. Neuroscience Letters, 438, 308 – 311.
Clearly you don't understand the concept of evolution very much either. Evolution as a whole occurs over a large scale, but guess what? It's still happening, and it's been happening recently. For example, they recently found a gene that differs between populations that gravitate towards tonal and non-tonal languages--and this is evolution.

3. Then you will offend a lot of people!
Papaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 13:52   Link #63
-Mad Skillz-
Kinetic 9
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to -Mad Skillz-
Quote:
Originally Posted by flohtingPoint View Post
Sure it is, he's a saiya-jin. People should be upset that there are no aliens playing Goku =P
I cant believe there are still people upset with Goku being portrayed by a white guy when not only is he NOT Japanese/Asian in the manga or anime but he looks more white than he does Asian. I didn't realize that an alien character in a Japanese anime was Asian.
__________________
-Mad Skillz- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 13:54   Link #64
-Mad Skillz-
Kinetic 9
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to -Mad Skillz-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post

It's very easy to distinguish between most Europeans, though. I'm Chinese myself, and I can distinguish easily between different races of Western European and Eastern Asian (save for the Southeast Asians). You just need to have enough exposure to them.
No offense, but I call BS on this. Can you distinguish between Europeans? Maybe. But "easily"? Yeah right.
__________________
-Mad Skillz- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 13:58   Link #65
Kafriel
Senior Guest
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 25
There's always weird people around who can't stand one thing or the other...when it comes down to movies, it's all about who the director is and what they believe in.
Goku doesn't look japanese indeed, but the super saiyan-golden hair is because few people in japan are blond. If DB was launched in,say,Russia, he would have probably had red or blue hair instead.I'd say aliens can be played by ANYONE, and if someone is discriminating on that matter they must be very stubborn.
__________________
Kafriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 14:35   Link #66
Spectacular_Insanity
Ha ha ha ha ha...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right behind you.
Age: 25
Personally, I think it's pretty pathetically underdeveloped. I think Hollywood is more hungry for source material than actually interested in cultural understanding and getting the anime adaptions accurate. There are some exceptions (e.g. Transformers) but those seem pretty rare.
__________________
Spectacular_Insanity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 14:37   Link #67
Kafriel
Senior Guest
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 25
Apparently cultural understanding doesn't make money nowadays -_^
Have you seen the last samurai? It's the only movie I can remember where the (old) japanese culture has some light shed upon.Not sure if it's a hollywood production though.
__________________
Kafriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 15:31   Link #68
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post
1. That's irrelevant. Let's say I give you 1000 marbles, all of different sizes.
Actually I don't even fully understand your metaphor. What are these marbles supposed to represent? Individuals? Genes? Why should I ignore size, weight, texture, reflection index or whatever in favor of color for any reason. The only reason I see is that it's the only choice that yields the result in a partition that pleases you whereas any other choice yields a partition that displeases you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post
2. I suggest you look up some material on these tribes. As far as I know, I've read the research ...
If you would point out those papers that deal with DNA analysis and genetic exchange, then surely. Judging from the titles, none of them does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post
3. Then you will offend a lot of people!
Hardly. People might even be offended by the opposite because they take "I can clearly tell that you're (e.g.) Italian." as just another way of saying "You (Italians) all look the same anyway." But one way or the other I prefer to not drink my beer with people who are easily offended anyway. Also, "offensiveness" is not truth criterion.
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 15:57   Link #69
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
@Papaya: Aye, I've read the research as well.... All of your cites are completely irrelevant to the subject. I looked them up since you didn't link them:
Spoiler for Cite #1 and #3 irrelevant to topic; only quoting the abstract for obvious reasons:

Since you started off by implying I know nothing because I disagree with your assertions - and then your scientific cites are irrelevant... <shrug>.

"Race" is a colloquial term ... it simply isn't used in genetics because it is amorphous and poorly constrained. Even the soft sciences are learning it isn't meaningful when looking at categorizing populations as they migrate and shift. At best its a messy cultural or trend tag - and knowledgeable people cannot agree on where the lines are. You're simply pointing at stronger variation in your examples. Isolate those humans for a few hundred thousand years and then you may have an example.
You're also playing the "conspiracy of silence" card which I find interesting ... next you're going to tell me there's a "Chinese" race or that anyone who is a Jew is a member of the "Jewish race"? The very idea of "various European races" is amusing -- there's simply too much exchange of genetic material over the last few thousand years much less further back. Modern DNA analysis is showing just how interconnected humanity is. The word "race" is simply too diluted to be useful.
Quote:
Everyone in the research community acknowledges that race discussion and research is off the limits.
Well, "flat earth", "phrenology", Velikovsky-pseudoscience, and "creationism" are also poor subjects to get funding on. Trying to pin it on "political correctness" is a canard...

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-02-09 at 19:14.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 15:58   Link #70
flohtingPoint
Limited Slip
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fairfax, VA
Send a message via ICQ to flohtingPoint Send a message via AIM to flohtingPoint
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Mad Skillz- View Post
I cant believe there are still people upset with Goku being portrayed by a white guy when not only is he NOT Japanese/Asian in the manga or anime but he looks more white than he does Asian. I didn't realize that an alien character in a Japanese anime was Asian.
Then again, when you think about it, hardly any anime characters look Asian. I mean, hell, the kid from Initial D had blond hair and blue eyes, he's an Aryan. Spike, from Cowboy Bebop looks like a green haired Jew. Even the most famous animated character ever in Japan is blatantly not Japanese, he's an Italian plumber, and I dont remember anyone throwing a fit when the brothers were played by a Colombian and a Brit in their 1993 film.
__________________
flohtingPoint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 16:25   Link #71
Fipskuul
τηε πιγητ ωατςη
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: τη λαnδ of веагз αnδ дг
I think a differentiation needs to be made when it comes to using anime/manga to defend western views. What the Japanese does is select maybe a very very low percentage of their own population (I am guessing even they must have some of their own people looking similar to the characters portrayed in those stories) to portray a character to boost the image of that character. In other words, they change their own unique characteristics to fit it to the image of others. If they are degrading something, they do that to their own culture and uniqueness. Not exactly what the westerners here are being criticized for.

If there are examples of Japanese using a certain image of another nation in a certain way, be it negative or positive, and restrict that image to such usage, then yes you can set up the similarity. But, it may be better to use some examples other than the anime or manga. It is a highly fantasy world, which can make anyone become anything the creator wanted.
__________________
Fipskuul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 16:33   Link #72
AyumiDesu
Kiss-sui.com Princess
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post

Back to Hollywood's view, I would say it is still stereotypical like every other entertainment industry. Not a wonder that their idea of Japanese is similar to ninjas, Graham Bushido, and sexually provocative females (probably one of the reasons why bringing up "I like Japanese females" would immediately classify you as an " extreme pervert").

Gomen. This idea is alien to me and hard to understand. Where does the idea come from that if you like Japanese females you are pervert????
__________________

Love and Loneliness in Chicago!
AyumiDesu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 16:45   Link #73
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by AyumiDesu View Post
Gomen. This idea is alien to me and hard to understand. Where does the idea come from that if you like Japanese females you are pervert????
Frankly its an unknown idea to me and I've lived all over the US. Is this some meme in some backwards little town far from any interstate highway? Now, I've seen people upset because someone was attracted to another ethnic at all..... but that sort of insecure anger is a well-known issue in many parts of the world.

Having a Star Trek moment... ("She is not of the Body!!! She is an Outsider, an Archon! You may not date her!!")
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 16:50   Link #74
AyumiDesu
Kiss-sui.com Princess
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post

Balancing the interests and aspirations of many various groups has never been easy, but the consequences of failure to do so have been all too evident.



Hi, I would like to understand what you mean, so could you please give me more example?
__________________

Love and Loneliness in Chicago!

Last edited by AyumiDesu; 2009-02-09 at 17:14.
AyumiDesu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 17:15   Link #75
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by AyumiDesu View Post
Gomen. This idea is alien to me and hard to understand. Where does the idea come from that if you like Japanese females you are pervert????
This is hard to describe...Part of this stereotype is resulted from a surge in some African-American cultures where the new 'taboo' relationship has switched from the old interracial couple of a White woman and a Black man, to an Asian woman and a Black man. Consequently, SaintessHeart statement (which I do disagree with, considering that the majority of people worried about interracial couples are too old to actually reproduce anymore) identifies a certain subset of a culture that believes that liking Asian women is somewhat perverse because it is considered taboo.

Additionally, the majority of film roles for Asian women are centered on their "exotic" sex appeal (this "exoticness" has been cultivated over the years by many executives in charge of films). Lucy Liu, Maggie Q, etc, only ever find work in Hollywood as "sexual" characters that the male lead can fantasize about.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 19:19   Link #76
Nerroth
Alea iacta est.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by AyumiDesu View Post

Hi, I would like to understand what you mean, so could you please give me more example?
The Indian subcontinent has been home to dozens, if not hundreds, of ethnicities, religions, cultures, languages and belief systems - and the story of India has often been a story of trying to find ways for these often widely different groups to get along.

On the one hand, rulers as far apart in time as Ashoka and Akbar have tried to introduce policies and systems which tried to promote equality and understanding between their varied peoples...

...while on the other hand, times such as the partition of India and Pakistan in 1947 have seen terrible upheavals, inter-communal massacres, and the kind of bitter legacies that take a long time to try and chip away at.


Time will tell whether the future of the sub-continent will prove to be as hopeful as one might wish, as dark as one might fear, or some kind of middling area in between.
__________________
Nerroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-09, 23:26   Link #77
Fome
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I actually agree with Papaya's main premise, that the conception of race, although rather loosely coined nowadays, has an obvious genetic inference. I mean, on average, two East Asian individuals will have more similar DNA sequences than those of an East Asian individual compared with a Caucasian individual. Can anyone deny this?

However, I also agree that the detailed genetic correlations of physical appearance and DNA sequence are still very tenuous at this point. But it is not inconceivable that those correlations will be made clear sometime in the future, when technology has vastly advanced. We already know which alleles influence eye color, skin pigment, widows peak hairline, etc. To me, it seems entirely reasonable that geneticists in the future will be able to take blood samples from a crime scene and say with confidence, "Ah, this was a Caucasian woman."

In anthropological terms, a race is basically a giant extended family, with a relatively recent common ancestor compared to other races. Humanity is thought to have originated in Africa, but as different tribes separated and colonized new lands, they diverged rapidly on the evolutionary tree (although not enough to speciate), often due to environmental pressure, but also frequently just due to random chance from founders effect. Relative genetic isolation eventually manifested in peoples with discernible physical differences from region to region, and although genetically mixing always occurred, it was far less influential on the gene pool than the far more substantial inbreeding (the evolutionary kind, not the ew kind) within geographic locales.
Fome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-10, 00:57   Link #78
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
The trick is that "race" implies that you can draw lines in the rainbow -- there's going to multiple indicators that prevent any clean line. It also implies that people can agree on the line's location at all along the spectrum. What you describe is already used to trace genetic history and in forensics. It has almost no connection to national or cultural boundaries, of course. But there's already scientific terms for those observations: variation, cline, phenotype, etc. Most scientists are fine with collecting populations by alleles for specific reasons (medical usually) but those populations are going to overlap and redistribute based on which alleles are chosen.

Trying to insert the word "race" into a scientific discussion is about like using the word "doggie" when discussing the family Canidae or the word "night twinkles" in Astronomy. Not going to be taken very seriously...

Also, "race" has been used over the centuries as a reference to religion, culture, tribe, region (e.g. Germanic "race") which makes it terribly ineffective and misleading. Being able to describe someone's skin tone using a color index, skeletal features, or blood characteristics is certainly possible -- does it tell you their "race"? Who is defining? What is it being used for? A lot of energy has been spent over the last thousand-plus years by various people of many nations who misused genetic understanding to create "race theories" to justify mistreatment of anyone different..... Gattaca time?

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-02-10 at 01:09.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-10, 10:29   Link #79
Fome
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I can agree with that statement in that the idea of race has been historically misleading. It reminds me of the debate among taxonomists concerning whether we should still use the term "reptile" because it actually is not monophyletic, since in order to become so it would have to include birds. Proponents for the term claim the word reptile is still highly descriptive, however unscientific it is in light of what we know today.

Although race isn't perfect, it stills tells you a lot about an individual. Its just a rough and tumble way of grouping phenotypes. If it weren't at least somewhat useful, it would have been discarded long ago
Fome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-02-10, 10:41   Link #80
Kafriel
Senior Guest
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 25
Quote:
Also, "race" has been used over the centuries as a reference to religion, culture, tribe, region (e.g. Germanic "race") which makes it terribly ineffective and misleading. Being able to describe someone's skin tone using a color index, skeletal features, or blood characteristics is certainly possible -- does it tell you their "race"? Who is defining? What is it being used for? A lot of energy has been spent over the last thousand-plus years by various people of many nations who misused genetic understanding to create "race theories" to justify mistreatment of anyone different..... Gattaca time?
Race also has to do with the history of events that occured in a certain place-germany is best known for world wars, Italy is known for having a mafia, Russia for communism, Greece is often associated with homosexuality,Korea with nuclear material, Africa with poverty etc.
Although it is wrong to judge and label people based on where they were born and what they look like, it saddens me to say that most people go by that wrong concept.Good call on Gattaca, strangely enough it looks like a very probable future, save for the DNA alterations :P
__________________
Kafriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.