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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 151 66.23%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 17.11%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 8.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 4.39%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.75%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.44%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 4 1.75%
Voters: 228. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-02-15, 09:00   Link #321
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
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I left a message on your User CP. I found this both uncanny and funny all at the same time. SO how is medical school? Can you still watch anime despite everything? Because I seem to be forced to go to medicine, and all I really want is to watch anime since I won't be able to do much else.

Going back to Toradora, your insight regarding her psychological background was relevant. However, don't you think she's still bitchy? I like her and her development and all, but that doesn't change the fact that she's still somewhat offensive.

EDIT: By the way, we have our own ADMU convention on March 7. You should go there, it's our very first anime convention.
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Old 2009-02-15, 09:05   Link #322
shojie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
So I watched this episode after Clannad AS episode 18, as I usually pair up both shows since I follow both like a religious zealot. However, rather than perk me up, it just pushed me further down the road of personal introspection.

Anyway, my take on this discussion.

----------------

What makes Taiga for me for me stand at amongst a whole slew of characters of a similar character build (Tsundere, but not really so much of that) is that unlike the others, we are given some insight and backstory that givs some weight as to why her personality is as such and why she acts that way to Yuuji to some degree. Now I personally don't think she's Tsundere as most people seem to say she is, but she does share some similar traits, but as a whole she's more different than that.

Taiga is a very, very, very, really really flawed character. Even if her traits are similar to many other characters of the same archetype, she isn't like that for some default reason of by some completely sadistic personality disorder. She has a bit more backstory from what I've seen in the series (and purely the series, never read the original material), and backs it up with consistent action and language. Granted the past 2 episodes are a bit of a deviation, but she does state some plausible reasons for suddenly being nice which is a polar opposite expectation to how she would be acting even though it's Xmas, again pointing out her own inner conflicts in terms of how she "genuinely" treats other people. She's already selective enough as it is.

Her violent and anti-social attitude is perhaps deeply rooted in her anger towards her father and towards a feeling of betrayel she gets from people she'd have thought really cared about her. Even if people truly cared, with the exception on Minorin, she still acts the way she is.

From a Psychiatric POV this is a typical defensive technique to shield oneself from hurt and harm by being unapproachable and eccentric. At the same time these people are also the ones crying out loud for someone to love them, but their defensive stanced prevent them from reaching this.

Taiga is almost a classic example of this. I would know, I used to be like her.

@physics223

I think one of the reasons why she acts like a bitch towards Yuuji is that Yuuji, to some extent, acts like sort of a "father figure" type to Taiga. Yuuji is genuinely a caring and loving person, one of the very few genuinely real anime characters of that type I've seen in recent years. That said, we all know of Taiga's history with her father. She hates the bastard for understandable reasons. I doubt she truly understands to have a caring male figure, most likely having had an absent or irresponsible father most of her life. She treats him like crap, rightfully so, and doesn't perhaps truly understand what it means to have someone "caring" over her.

I'd think she had spent most of her life looking out for herself. Besides Minorin anyway, she's never had a an adult figure and someone to truly rely on. Remember how she laments that she fears she'll never have someone care over her, thinking that the men in her life never gave a damn about her. She has some probably dislike for men, or at least some fear, which extends towards her crushes. Towards that she is suddenly all hesitant, shy and reserved, a far cry from her violent and aggressive self. The only man to have really cared for her was Ryuuji.

Which is why about at around the end of the father arc I think I finally understood why she treats Yuuji as she does:

She sees Yuuji as an extension of her father, thus a father figure, and as such treats him like crap. And yet, as the conflict in herself manifests to us, she is unable to respond and integrate well to the fact that Yuuji is indeed, very much different than her father is. That Yuuji is unlike any caring man that she seen before, she simply does not know how to act. She would simply treat him as she treats her father, but he is obviously a person far from him.

I see her conflict enough as it is. Many scenes were shown of her being dumbfounded enough as it is that Yuuji is nice to her despite her abuse. She clearly isn't well adjusted to this, and like a maladjusted person reponds typically with disdain. But as the series progresses, despite her usual violence, I can see some appreciation in her eyes.

She's slowly warming up to him. She is, in short, slowly learning.

The years of neglect and potential man/father hate is slowly disappearing. She has never appreciated what it meant to have someone care for her, despite her longing for one, because she never grew up with it. She never truly understood, because she was not given the chance. The first time she felt what it was like to have someone care for her almost without recompense was Yuuji. She didn't understand, she didn't know, she could not notice, and thus couldn't appreciate. But she found herself on that street, crying out his name, because she finally realized what it was to truly have someone watch over her.

This, I think, is what makes her the penultimate example of her character type.

And with that, with her heartfelt realization, tells me no other person deserved Yuuji more than her.
i agree with MeoTwister5..
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Old 2009-02-15, 09:14   Link #323
typhonsentra
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Fun fact:

In all three categories (Replies, page views, and total votes), this is officially the most popular episode of Toradora to date! Yay, my prediction was right!
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Old 2009-02-15, 09:19   Link #324
wistfulloner
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Oh for the love of god, please don't update this thread so often, I can't keep up! I just read this 5mins ago and another post just popped up...

If this is how popular the thread is going to be, I think I will dread the "Toradora! - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll"...
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Old 2009-02-15, 10:33   Link #325
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ahahaha, everytime i read the manga subforum, the thread about Ichigo100% is there... With Toradora will be the same... i'm sure of it. It is because everyone has her/his own experience and can post impressions based on those experiences. Look at Macross Frontier... the shipping was the engine who moved that sub-forum, nor the weapons nor the battles...

Love is everywhere <3.... love is in the air... lalaaala~ lala lalaa ~
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Old 2009-02-15, 11:13   Link #326
miroku2192
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i must say i totally agree with the whole "psychological" aspect of Meo's argument...good job!

It's a great episode, and it really was quite ironic. Though the only thing that pissed me off was just how coincidental everything was...the timing? seriously? I mean, it's almost unbelievable...Taiga runs out looks to the left but DOESN"T see anybody it seems, and starts crying out, but all of a sudden minorin is standing there 10 feet away from her? and if you look closely, it's just a loonnnnng path, so it's not like minorin turned the corner and saw taiga...nope, she miraculously appeared out of no where .

and props to ALL the voice actors, they did a great job to bring out the inner "emotions". i still feel really bad for ami though...i wish ryuuji would start paying a bit more attention to her for once
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Old 2009-02-15, 11:26   Link #327
Fran~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
i still feel really bad for ami though...i wish ryuuji would start paying a bit more attention to her for once
why?.

It isnt a retorical question... i know that everyone of us would like a different girl for Ryuuji... but why Ami?... or why Taiga, or why Minori?... why not the one that Ryuuji wants?... and Ami is well behind Taiga and Minori in that Ranking and it isnt Ryuuji's fault, at risk of start a flame war, it was Ami's fault.
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Old 2009-02-15, 11:29   Link #328
puppygod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
(...)
It's a great episode, and it really was quite ironic. Though the only thing that pissed me off was just how coincidental everything was...the timing? seriously? I mean, it's almost unbelievable...Taiga runs out looks to the left but DOESN"T see anybody it seems, and starts crying out, but all of a sudden minorin is standing there 10 feet away from her? and if you look closely, it's just a loonnnnng path, so it's not like minorin turned the corner and saw taiga...nope, she miraculously appeared out of no where .
I disagree. Just checked again, and the way "camera" pans out, as well as background shows that Minorin is quite a distance away. Certainly not suddenly teleporting 10 feet away, more like half a block away. Also, it wasn't exactly coincidence - at least not according to novel material.
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Old 2009-02-15, 11:32   Link #329
miroku2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puppygod View Post
I disagree. Just checked again, and the way "camera" pans out, as well as background shows that Minorin is quite a distance away. Certainly not suddenly teleporting 10 feet away, more like half a block away. Also, it wasn't exactly coincidence - at least not according to novel material.
okay when i said 10 feet, i didn't literally mean 10 feet, but in the time it took for her to look to the left and cry, minorin couldn't have possibly been so far away that taiga couldn't see her... do u know what im saying? Say it was like 8 seconds from the time she looked to the left to the time she was on the ground...in 8 seconds, the distance you walk, one can easily tell who it is, granted it was dark, but idk i still felt it was too coincidental (i haven't read the novel so i don't know what you're talking about), but i'm watching the anime, and with what i'm being shown w/o outside references, it just didn't seem THAT believable

edit: double posted by accident:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
why?.

It isnt a retorical question... i know that everyone of us would like a different girl for Ryuuji... but why Ami?... or why Taiga, or why Minori?... why not the one that Ryuuji wants?... and Ami is well behind Taiga and Minori in that Ranking and it isnt Ryuuji's fault, at risk of start a flame war, it was Ami's fault.
because of the way HE treats her. He shows all this affection for taiga, and minorin, but i feel like he hasn't shown that much for Ami. I would just like to see her get "better" attention, especially since she's been giving all this advice to him/helping him in a way with minorin...she does a lot for him recently, and i definitely think he needs to step back and take a look/reevaluate.
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Old 2009-02-15, 11:50   Link #330
Fran~
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^Again, why?... No one can command others people heart... If Ryuuji for some reason starts to like Ami, great... but not as an obligation.
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Old 2009-02-15, 11:51   Link #331
physics223
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When Ryuuji first saw Ami he was infatuated with her. He realized her true colors, but he still got to like her as a friend. The problem is, Ami doesn't like Ryuuji merely as a friend. That's the problem, simply put.
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Old 2009-02-15, 11:54   Link #332
FuzzyWuzzy
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Ok so wth happened. I was enjoying a nice school comedy / romance anime and now at episode 19, it became a harem anime.

WTH!!!
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Old 2009-02-15, 11:55   Link #333
CaptGloval
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
ahahaha, everytime i read the manga subforum, the thread about Ichigo100% is there... With Toradora will be the same... i'm sure of it. It is because everyone has her/his own experience and can post impressions based on those experiences. Look at Macross Frontier... the shipping was the engine who moved that sub-forum, nor the weapons nor the battles...

Love is everywhere <3.... love is in the air... lalaaala~ lala lalaa ~
Sad fact about Macross Frontier. But shipping isn't about love.
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Old 2009-02-15, 11:59   Link #334
miroku2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
^Again, why?... No one can command others people heart... If Ryuuji for some reason starts to like Ami, great... but not as an obligation.
If a girl did A LOT for you, it's kind of hard to just sorta "ignore" them. What i'm saying is he should listen to her a bit more carefully. Given the type of guy he is, i would expect him to give Ami a bit more attention. I'm not saying it's an obligation, i'm saying i feel BAD for Ami who seems to be trying so hard but he doesn't seem to view her as something more than a friend, also probably because he's not really getting the hints she's throwing out, which is really starting to piss me off.
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Old 2009-02-15, 12:00   Link #335
typhonsentra
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I think the main appeal of Ami for a lot of people was that Ryuuji didn't have to go out of his way to charm her/gain her affection the way he did for Minori and Taiga (Although we don't know for sure when Minori started liking him, there are some hints in the first book). She just likes him for who he is. It's painfully clear however that he prefers the other two, which makes the whole thing sad.
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Old 2009-02-15, 12:02   Link #336
physics223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy View Post
Ok so wth happened. I was enjoying a nice school comedy / romance anime and now at episode 19, it became a harem anime.

WTH!!!
For one, I don't think your definition of what a harem anime is is in accordance with the generally-accepted definition. A harem anime has a lead chased romantically by many girls. The lead is normally indecisive, but manages after many hijinks to choose the girl that he loves. Toradora isn't like that.

First, Ryuuji is interested only in Minori. He treats Taiga as a best friend, and Ami as a close friend. But he only has had one target from the beginning, and that was Minori.

Second, the girls do not lose their dignity or throw it to the winds in their supposed pursuit of the lead, which is Ryuuji. Ami loves Ryuuji, but she's very subtle about her emotions. Minori sacrifices herself because of her suspicions that Taiga is also interested in Ryuuji. Taiga also attempts to sacrifice her emotions to pair Minori and Ryuuji up. This is atypical of most harem series, where the women act as if they were in a dog-eat-dog world.

In the recent episodes it simply started the conflict that was oft in the horizon. That does not mean it immediately became a harem anime series; rather, it possesses elements of drama because it's also a romance series aside from being a comedy series. Only this time, the romance is given more focus.
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Old 2009-02-15, 12:04   Link #337
Waking_Dreamer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Cut for Length....But she found herself on that street, crying out his name, because she finally realized what it was to truly have someone watch over her.
Nice analysis.

I really dont mind what others think just that if a point of view or idea of mine hasnt been posted yet, I sometimes feel like sharing.

Anyway, in regards to your post the fact that the Ryuuji is so closely linked to her relationship with her father kind of puts a different vibe to their whole relationship for me. I suppose many of the older members who have wives and families for a for a long period time can relate to their relationship. How pretty much all the different facets/behaviours of a person is shown to the other or that your significant other is like your better half.

However, even the parts you emphasized...struck odd to me. It still reminds me of Ryuuji playing papa. Is it so much Taiga deserves Ryuuji or it is it that she needs him? And to what extent? Surely they dont need to be lovers to maintain their current relationship do they?

For their age to me, lovers/people dating would be more of two independent people who are attracted to each other and excited/enjoy each others company. Thats why love interests of Minorin and Ami seem more interesting/viable because theyre more equal or independent of each other.

Idk...its up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
For one, I don't think your definition of what a harem anime is is in accordance with the generally-accepted definition. A harem anime has a lead chased romantically by many girls. The lead is normally indecisive, but manages after many hijinks to choose the girl that he loves. Toradora isn't like that.

First, Ryuuji is interested only in Minori. He treats Taiga as a best friend, and Ami as a close friend. But he only has had one target from the beginning, and that was Minori.

Second, the girls do not lose their dignity or throw it to the winds in their supposed pursuit of the lead, which is Ryuuji. Ami loves Ryuuji, but she's very subtle about her emotions. Minori sacrifices herself because of her suspicions that Taiga is also interested in Ryuuji. Taiga also attempts to sacrifice her emotions to pair Minori and Ryuuji up. This is atypical of most harem series, where the women act as if they were in a dog-eat-dog world.
Yea, I almost wish it was a harem...I mean girls/love interests arent usually treated this bad in a harem are they? (not sure havent seen a harem anime since Love Hina...that if you dont include School Rumble/MHS/FSN.)
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Old 2009-02-15, 12:07   Link #338
miroku2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
I think the main appeal of Ami for a lot of people was that Ryuuji didn't have to go out of his way to charm her/gain her affection the way he did for Minori and Taiga (Although we don't know for sure when Minori started liking him, there are some hints in the first book). She just likes him for who he is. It's painfully clear however that he prefers the other two, which makes the whole thing sad.
Another reason i PERSONALLY want Ami to be with (someone) like Ryuuji is that he can love/treat her for who she REALLY is. Because she's such a popular model/idol or w/e, people view her as an ethereal being, and so like the case with the stalker, love her for her looks and "fake" personality only, not for who she really is. I feel like she's come a long way since she met Ryuuji, and Ryuuji is someone who can provide her with a REAL relationship, not one of awe/omg j00 an idol u are s0 hawt, i gotta tell meh br0s that im with the hawtest id0l in t3hh w0rlddd...you know?
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Old 2009-02-15, 12:26   Link #339
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer View Post
Nice analysis.

I really dont mind what others think just that if a point of view or idea of mine hasnt been posted yet, I sometimes feel like sharing.

Anyway, in regards to your post the fact that the Ryuuji is so closely linked to her relationship with her father kind of puts a different vibe to their whole relationship for me. I suppose many of the older members who have wives and families for a for a long period time can relate to their relationship. How pretty much all the different facets/behaviours of a person is shown to the other or that your significant other is like your better half.

However, even the parts you emphasized...struck odd to me. It still reminds me of Ryuuji playing papa. Is it so much Taiga deserves Ryuuji or it is it that she needs him? And to what extent? Surely they dont need to be lovers to maintain their current relationship do they?

For their age to me, lovers/people dating would be more of two independent people who are attracted to each other and excited/enjoy each others company. Thats why love interests of Minorin and Ami seem more interesting/viable because theyre more equal or independent of each other.

Idk...its up to you.



Yea, I almost wish it was a harem...I mean girls/love interests arent usually treated this bad in a harem are they? (not sure havent seen a harem anime since Love Hina...that if you dont include School Rumble/MHS/FSN.)
Well not so far that it's a father daughter thing. I don't think Yuuji thinks of Taiga that way, he has more like an OCD thing for houework and house life and such. I also don't think Taiga has a father outlook to him. If anything, the last crying scene shows to me me that she loves him in a romantic fashion and not as a parental figure.
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Old 2009-02-15, 12:36   Link #340
physics223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Well not so far that it's a father daughter thing. I don't think Yuuji thinks of Taiga that way, he has more like an OCD thing for houework and house life and such. I also don't think Taiga has a father outlook to him. If anything, the last crying scene shows to me me that she loves him in a romantic fashion and not as a parental figure.
His name is Ryuuji, kuya Jorge! Ryuuji!
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