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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 151 66.23%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 17.11%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 8.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 4.39%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.75%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.44%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 4 1.75%
Voters: 228. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-02-15, 15:48   Link #381
Fran~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I wonder why people grossly underestimate Ami's humanity.
May be i look as an Ami hater, im not, actually i like it, but, i think that she is doing the same mistake of a lot of female characters of this kind of titles/mangas/anime...

If she is in love of someone... WHY THE HELL SHE DOESN'T TELL HIM THAT!!!

She is suffering and make suffer the people who likes her. But she is taking the bad approach to this, just mumbling some phrases to a guy like Ryuuji will not make any difference...
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Old 2009-02-15, 15:52   Link #382
Dratris
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXcYK7c9jHA&fmt=22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q92XHObEmSA&fmt=22

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Old 2009-02-15, 16:16   Link #383
SkoolRumble4Ya
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Is Taiga crying because she secretly loves him or is she crying because she won't be spending time with Ryuji as a friend anymore?
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Old 2009-02-15, 16:18   Link #384
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya View Post
Is Taiga crying because she secretly loves him or is she crying because she won't be spending time with Ryuji as a friend anymore?
According to the novels, both.

The show should make it clearer by at least episode 21...
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Old 2009-02-15, 16:20   Link #385
typhonsentra
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She doesn't say it because she can read between the lines, she knows she's not considered a factor. She more or less said so in episode 18.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya View Post
Is Taiga crying because she secretly loves him or is she crying because she won't be spending time with Ryuji as a friend anymore?
Both, but mainly the first.
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Old 2009-02-15, 16:22   Link #386
Deathscyther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya View Post
Is Taiga crying because she secretly loves him or is she crying because she won't be spending time with Ryuji as a friend anymore?
This hasn't been made that clear in the anime yet

If he gets together with Minorin, she won't be able to be the one to stand beside Ryuuji anymore and she doesn't want that. Seeing her actions after realizing this though, I think it's pretty clear how she really feels.
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Old 2009-02-15, 16:28   Link #387
Janifuu
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Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
Let me restate that. Even if I didn't see Ami and Minori bawling, I still empathize with them more than Taiga. However, if I saw them cry, I would totally leave Taiga in the dust with my empathy and cry with them as well. As much as I've already accepted the ending and can't really blame anyone, Taiga deserves being left alone by Ryuuji.

The onus remains with the author. Taiga must pass through the eye of the needle that she must find in a burning haystack before I'll rally over to her side. As it stands, she doesn't deserve Ryuuji, and she deserves everything that was coming to her.
I think thats terrible. If anything has been demonstrated in the last few episodes (and occasionally throughout the series for that matter,) Taiga has been nothing but selfless and caring. How can you sympathize with Minori or Ami more so than Taiga, who's been not only the closest person to Ryuuji throughout the series, but has had a hell of alot more hardships to endure than Minori and Ami put together? What could have Taiga possible done to deserve being left alone by Ryuuji, yet alone by anyone in the end? If you ask me, I think she deserves Ryuuji a hell of alot more than any other female in the series.

Minori is great and I like her alot, but I personally think shes way too over the top and unusual in terms of compatibility with Ryuuji. If anyone's been paying any remote attention to his reactions and attentiveness towards Minori, wouldn't you think its nothing more than a crush? "But Ryuuji's had a crush on her since the beginning!" So what? Does that mean that just because hes had a crush on her that that suddenly makes Minori the one who was mean't for him? I personally think he will eventually be able to distinguish the difference between his crush (Minori) and whom I think he will eventually fall in love with (Taiga.) Episode 19 has shown a big hint in development as far as that, being that he went out of his way to prioritize seeing and being with Taiga on Christmas Eve more than he did his potential meeting with Minori. Had Taiga not literally forced or pushed Ryuuji out the door to go meet Minori, he would have stayed at Taiga's place.

As far as Ami, well, I'll try not to sound too biased being that I don't particularly care for her, but shes just way too self centered. Just as someone had already mentioned as well, she doesn't make any effort to allow others to get to know her "good" side and perhaps develop anything towards her, its only because shes been put in situations against her control. I grant her that she has indeed improved alot throughout the series for the better, but where does it make any sense to suddenly think or expect Ami to be parable with Ryuuji? She didn't waste any time developing a crush on Ryuuji, and that tells me alot about her. If she genuinely had feelings to Ryuuji, don't you think she would have put more effort to get to know him better and perhaps develop some sort of a connection with him before she declares her "feelings" for him? I think she cares about him no doubt about it, but I would hardly call it love. Ryuuji doesn't seem to have any romantic interest in Ami either, for that matter.

Please forgive my post if it seems heated. I've just become frustrated when people are simply so oblivious to the obvious character developments. Everyone is however certainly entitled to their own opinion and of course each are respectable in their own ways

Last edited by Janifuu; 2009-02-15 at 16:39.
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Old 2009-02-15, 16:54   Link #388
puppygod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
May be i look as an Ami hater, im not, actually i like it, but, i think that she is doing the same mistake of a lot of female characters of this kind of titles/mangas/anime...

If she is in love of someone... WHY THE HELL SHE DOESN'T TELL HIM THAT!!!
(...)
Well, I can imagine that scene:

"Ami: Ryuuji, I love you.
Ryuuji: Taaaiga! Ami is teasing me again!"


With dynamics these two share I doubt Ami has any chance to get to him anytime soon.
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Old 2009-02-15, 17:41   Link #389
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Whoah whoah whoah, why does this thread have so many posts?
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Old 2009-02-15, 17:43   Link #390
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerOsk View Post
Whoah whoah whoah, why does this thread have so many posts?
From the first page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
I'm calling it now: This'll be the most discussed episode to date.
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Old 2009-02-15, 17:51   Link #391
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerOsk View Post
Whoah whoah whoah, why does this thread have so many posts?
Because this episode is both the turning point and the beginning of the end, is another reason.

After this, everything changes. Sometimes when things are broken, they can't be fixed...
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Old 2009-02-15, 17:58   Link #392
miroku2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
After this, everything changes. Sometimes when things are broken, they can't be fixed...
tell me about it...the other day i broke my pen and i cried cuz i couldn't fix it.

on a more serious note, i'm hoping for a big twist at the end! i want to be surprised, i don't want the obvious ending, but if they're gonna do a twist, they better pull it off well

better yet make some ovas with endings for each character ;P, jk that would suck
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Old 2009-02-15, 18:06   Link #393
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Because this episode is both the turning point and the beginning of the end, is another reason.

After this, everything changes. Sometimes when things are broken, they can't be fixed...
Depends if you are a half pint full or empty person. Personally I see it as the point everyone can move forward and build on their experiences.
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Old 2009-02-15, 18:21   Link #394
physics223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janifuu View Post
-snip-
I think you've become frustrated with people who disagree with you.

I wasn't saying she didn't have character development. But she has a lot more character development simply because hers is the most obvious. That doesn't mean Ami or Minori had less, it just means they weren't shown. It can be assumed, however, that all of them have profoundly changed throughout the course of the series. You're agreeing primarily with the author's bias and I'm primarily disagreeing with it, which is free game (ever since the author died in postmodern analyses). It simply doesn't follow that Taiga has the most character development simply because she's the one featured by the series most. I disagree with that sentiment.

Ryuuji's also the guy who faces an existing reality with a poker face and often, despite his idealism, doesn't really recognize pipe-dreams. Taiga was an extant reality. She was there, he appreciated what she did, and he wanted to help her. With Minori it was all a pipe-dream: it could come true, but it also could not. Rather than dwelling in dreams, he wanted to help her, and he did.

Ami has been self-centered. It was her initial premise. If you failed to see that she's gone a long way since then, however, then that's not my fault. She's subtle with Ryuuji primarily because she recognizes the futility of her actions: at the onset, even at her very arrival, she was already the outsider, the Camus-ian stranger. She was never a central part of the group, and she learnt to deal with that. That doesn't lessen her character or its development, however.

Let's cheer to opinion, though. Disagreement is one of the mothers of invention (alongside some other things ).
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Old 2009-02-15, 18:23   Link #395
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I think it's more the end of certain 'delusions' about some pairings. I'm taking it as one door closes and another one opens.
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Old 2009-02-15, 18:58   Link #396
DragoZERO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SageGaiGar View Post
I think it's more the end of certain 'delusions' about some pairings. I'm taking it as one door closes and another one opens.
I hope they do that. It gets annoying when you throw too many people into the polygon sometimes.
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Old 2009-02-15, 20:40   Link #397
Janifuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I think you've become frustrated with people who disagree with you.

I wasn't saying she didn't have character development. But she has a lot more character development simply because hers is the most obvious. That doesn't mean Ami or Minori had less, it just means they weren't shown. It can be assumed, however, that all of them have profoundly changed throughout the course of the series. You're agreeing primarily with the author's bias and I'm primarily disagreeing with it, which is free game (ever since the author died in postmodern analyses). It simply doesn't follow that Taiga has the most character development simply because she's the one featured by the series most. I disagree with that sentiment.

Ryuuji's also the guy who faces an existing reality with a poker face and often, despite his idealism, doesn't really recognize pipe-dreams. Taiga was an extant reality. She was there, he appreciated what she did, and he wanted to help her. With Minori it was all a pipe-dream: it could come true, but it also could not. Rather than dwelling in dreams, he wanted to help her, and he did.

Ami has been self-centered. It was her initial premise. If you failed to see that she's gone a long way since then, however, then that's not my fault. She's subtle with Ryuuji primarily because she recognizes the futility of her actions: at the onset, even at her very arrival, she was already the outsider, the Camus-ian stranger. She was never a central part of the group, and she learnt to deal with that. That doesn't lessen her character or its development, however.

Let's cheer to opinion, though. Disagreement is one of the mothers of invention (alongside some other things ).
Uh, you are incorrect. I do not have any problems with those who are in disagreement from my standpoint or opinion. I do however have problems with those who clearly chose to ignore the obvious developments between each individual character. It's apparently difficult for an observer to be objective in the matter of character interactions or growth when they have a pair shipping preference, or when they have such a passionate dislike for a particular character. As I mentioned, yes Ami has indeed come a long way from her initial characterization, though it could potentially still take a person a long time to change their opinion of someone, given whether or not their first impression was favorable. In Ami's case, it was not. And put aside the fact that Taiga plays the lead female protagonist, when you compare and contrast all of the characters, you cannot deny the immense progress and development she has gone through. I'm pretty sure, and given its pretty obvious, that that's what the author would intend to relay, that even the seemingly hot headed Taiga can develop and come a long way.

Absolutely I will agree with the authors bias because uh, well, its the authors story lol. In order to have a better understanding of each characters progression and the overall direction of the story, you need to understand the authors intent. Kaisos Erranon stated it very well, it holds much more weight in examining a story when following the mind of the author as opposed to what the readers themselves follow.

Again, I certainly have no problem agreeing to disagree, so long as its within reasoning and mutual understanding

Last edited by Janifuu; 2009-02-15 at 20:55.
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Old 2009-02-15, 22:12   Link #398
physics223
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Originally Posted by Janifuu View Post
Uh, you are incorrect. I do not have any problems with those who are in disagreement from my standpoint or opinion. I do however have problems with those who clearly chose to ignore the obvious developments between each individual character. It's apparently difficult for an observer to be objective in the matter of character interactions or growth when they have a pair shipping preference, or when they have such a passionate dislike for a particular character. As I mentioned, yes Ami has indeed come a long way from her initial characterization, though it could potentially still take a person a long time to change their opinion of someone, given whether or not their first impression was favorable. In Ami's case, it was not. And put aside the fact that Taiga plays the lead female protagonist, when you compare and contrast all of the characters, you cannot deny the immense progress and development she has gone through. I'm pretty sure, and given its pretty obvious, that that's what the author would intend to relay, that even the seemingly hot headed Taiga can develop and come a long way.

Absolutely I will agree with the authors bias because uh, well, its the authors story lol. In order to have a better understanding of each characters progression and the overall direction of the story, you need to understand the authors intent. Kaisos Erranon stated it very well, it holds much more weight in examining a story when following the mind of the author as opposed to what the readers themselves follow.

Again, I certainly have no problem agreeing to disagree, so long as its within reasoning and mutual understanding
Even obvious is a matter of mileage. Isn't that obvious?

I'm not shipping, though. Don't mistake my reprehension of Taiga as blatant support for Ami or Minori. My other posts speak about the author having a lot to do to prove Taiga worthy to me as a viewer. I'm not denying Taiga's progress as well. I'm full well open to the path that the anime would take me. (Before this argument can be twisted, the 'death of the author' is a manner of reading literally. What I'm pertaining to in this post is that the author, the writer herself, has quite a lot to do to rally me over to Taiga's side. Otherwise, it's going to be simply bad writing, and my 'death of the author' reading would stand a lot better.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
But she has a lot more character development simply because hers is the most obvious. That doesn't mean Ami or Minori had less, it just means they weren't shown. It can be assumed, however, that all of them have profoundly changed throughout the course of the series.
Just because I recognize Taiga's flaws doesn't mean I hate her. I recognize my flaws, and I don't hate myself. Does it really have to boil down to shipping?

I do believe what I've been writing and I'm currently writing is within rational reasoning. People have yet to tell me otherwise.
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Old 2009-02-15, 23:31   Link #399
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...to get back on topic. Think they could just do a Kitamura show "what the hell is he going to do now" season? :V

Spoiler for santa:

Last edited by Pellissier; 2009-02-16 at 03:14. Reason: removed off topic part
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Old 2009-02-15, 23:35   Link #400
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SageGaiGar View Post
...to get back on topic. Think they could just do a Kitamura show "what the hell is he going to do now" season? :V

Spoiler for santa:
Kitamura is so totally insane that any show based around him would rock completely.
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Last edited by Pellissier; 2009-02-16 at 03:14. Reason: removed off topic part
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