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Old 2009-06-21, 07:20   Link #181
willyvereb
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Sacrafice in the heat of battle or sacraficing oneself's sanity an entirely different thing. Nina has stated at the Din Dee arc that she does everything in her power to protect others but if it's possible not while sacraficing herself. She's reckless but not sucidial(at least from the time the story's started...her hometown and the previous intercity match showed it a bit other way...but probably she values more her honor than her life).
And about the "remedy": As Ultramarinus said previously: Leerin don't know about the Haikizokou's danger much or that her treatment was just temporaly and Nina has no knownledge about how the Goat got repressed. So there's not much place to argue about that.
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Old 2009-06-21, 07:25   Link #182
Ultramarinus
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TK, yes I read that, but ep 5 was a worse comes to worst situation as well and you deemed refusing to fight free will there. That wasn't even a sacrifice, Felli just needed to play walkie-talkie behind city walls as usual. That wasn't free will or exercising the right to live, she had no risk to her life and it was her job to fight.

Fighting =/= Dying

But you claim that Nina needs to sacrifice her life willingly if something similar happens. If you really hold sitting idle safe and sound while the city gets destroyed the same with sacrificing life just because of a possession by an entity against your will, you shouldn't accuse me of double standards.

As much as I criticized Felli and defended Nina, I never applied different standards on them. I judge them based on their situations, motivations and actions. I already have quite a bit of posts lying around and I very much doubt anyone could point out a double standard from among them.
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Old 2009-06-21, 07:30   Link #183
TrueKnight
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One must fight in order to save the city, while one must die in order to save the city. Same goal in the end. Similar type of refusal to exercise them. One is based on ‘doesn’t want to be used’ while one is based on ‘doesn’t want to die or in veggie state’.
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Old 2009-06-21, 07:40   Link #184
Ultramarinus
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I'd fight for at least a dozen people I know but would only die for a couple or so. If you really regard those two as the same, I rest my case.
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Old 2009-06-21, 09:24   Link #185
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This has turned quite ugly in the end, hasn't it?
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Old 2009-06-21, 12:35   Link #186
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Sorry if it came across so, I liked the discussion but it feels sour if it grows to look futile. I don't expect to necessarily change opinions but at the very least we should apply the same standards while exchanging views.

I just wanted to drop some notes from the final episode regarding our earlier discussion BTW:

- Nina wishes Layfon to suit himself, he has her complete trust.
- Layfon acknowledges Nina's lecture on ep 5, he decides to stop running and protect the people.
- Felli acknowledges Nina as well, that they fight with others for others.

So they came to accept their responsibility and Nina is relieved with confidence of that now. That was what I have been expecting all along, proved to be good development at the end.
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Old 2009-06-21, 18:41   Link #187
blewin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
Sorry if it came across so, I liked the discussion but it feels sour if it grows to look futile. I don't expect to necessarily change opinions but at the very least we should apply the same standards while exchanging views.

I just wanted to drop some notes from the final episode regarding our earlier discussion BTW:

- Nina wishes Layfon to suit himself, he has her complete trust.
- Layfon acknowledges Nina's lecture on ep 5, he decides to stop running and protect the people.
- Felli acknowledges Nina as well, that they fight with others for others.

So they came to accept their responsibility and Nina is relieved with confidence of that now. That was what I have been expecting all along, proved to be good development at the end.
agree with all your points. And also, there's this quick flash of Nina's face when Layfon was about to deliver his final blow to the filth monster. Now what does that signify?
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Old 2009-06-21, 19:06   Link #188
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It felt like Nina getting all BANZAI! as Layfon finally is going full force without any remorse, (she wants him to wield the blade just the previous scene) that was what I could make out of it anyway. Gotta say that was kinda weird though.
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Old 2009-06-23, 12:04   Link #189
satomianzaki
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Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
Maybe we can continue with the next season.
yeah...till the next season...

by that time, i guess, the novel has covered and explained some crucial points of the story...

looking forward to a better continuation of the anime...and hope to see an improved version of nina...

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Old 2009-06-23, 12:17   Link #190
willyvereb
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How do you mean improvement?
animation/design(making her face more feminine), power improvement(Ol' Goat-chan lends a few of his power...if she regains him), or as character(less confusing actions for example).
Well,any of them fine by me.
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Old 2009-06-23, 23:52   Link #191
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Maybe they will be investing more time into the characters backgrounds and promote their behavior via side-stories, something like the story from the same named manga would be nice to have. It could make people better understand why she's always going full force then. Don't touch the visuals though, she's already the best-looking female of the show without trying. Maybe that's even helping.

The goat issue is a critical point though, she was affected the most by the unique ending. They strayed too far by not having the goat returned before the end. So they should be giving it back ASAP or else the story can get totally messed up.

Oh and have Myath come back to beat them up so that Nina can fulfill her character's objective and then continue progressing with other matters.
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Old 2009-06-24, 12:04   Link #192
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yeah, no need to change Nina's character design...she's very charming that way...

definitely power improvement and more character development...oh and i'd like to see the other side of her...like what i heard is included in the novel...the bear and ferret issues...
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Old 2009-07-02, 10:46   Link #193
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if i were to choose the best episode of anime csr, i will definitely pick episode 19...

reunion of nina and layfon...that moment when they embraced makes me really happy...

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Old 2009-07-04, 08:52   Link #194
willyvereb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satomianzaki View Post
regarding nina's strength, although some may still call her weak, i think she's really in the right path of getting stronger...even dixerio acknowledges her improvement in the use of kei on episode 19...

she may not be as strong as the others now but she has lots of potential of getting stronger in the future...and if haikizoku will continually lend it's power, now that will really heighten nina's strength...given that she will be able to control and use it properly...

really miss watching new episodes of csr...hope there will be some news of another season...

The Haikizokou isn't something that a "mere human" can control. Probably it's close to impossible to even the most of the HB recievers. And if I remember well Nina lost the Haikizokou in ep 25.
In the light novel it's another thing. If I remember well Nina "managed to control" the Goat by coming to an agreement with it. So she isn't control it, but cooperate with it.
In terms of power she's strong but unrefined. Perhaps the level of Haikizokou or HB-s a whole new level of strenght. It's unfair to compare her with such "monsters".

Everyone who beat her either a person with monstrous potential or someone with more training and experience behind his back.
For example in a Haia-Nina comparsion the causes of difference in power is obvious:
-Haia is like a son of a pro wrestler. He trained that way and from a great teacher since birth. He has more and better training, experience with filth monsters and even a better weapon.
-Nina's like a street fighter who's learnt boxing for few years.She's trained in MA, but only as a "hobby" and she probably had to learn a new form of MA in Zuellni when she's arrived. And perhaps she has no experience with FM.
(other thing that most of the shounen mangas tend to ignore theese facts and thenewcommer protagonists beats experienced fighters after only a short time of effort.)
In short Nina's talented, but not the top fighter. She has other qualities that makes her special later(Haikizokou and her relation with the Electronic Fairies), but the Anime fails to show that I think.
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Old 2009-07-04, 09:32   Link #195
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Pretty detailed and true explanation there. It's apparent that some people regard characters based on power (sorry but quite the dumb approach) or just find an excuse to strike back at a character due to their previous, other misgivings.

I also think that HB users have some kind of gift, possibly immense kei potential. Because we see them getting Layfon in even as a little kid and then, training. He wasn't what he became when they decided to get him. That's why I don't think that people can join HB ranks with mere training, it's kind of a Jedi recruitment. You either have it from birth or you don't. Also the queen had disregarded their grand tournament as just winning that doesn't cut it. IIRC Felli also received an invitation in LN recently, that's another supporting evidence for my theory. They'll get the person no matter the motivation or lack of it is, that's why they end up with mostly eccentric members, some even leaning to evil.

So it's not fair to compare Nina with HB users and Psyharden is also a special school, more akin to those Japanese dojos, even down to using katanas. Academy city martial artists on the other hand are mostly regular army people, they train hard, drill and compete but that wouldn't warrant going toe to toe against a Jedi or samurai.
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Old 2009-07-04, 10:25   Link #196
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I have to disagree with part of willyvereb comparison: Nina's not a street fighter she's a fully trained soldier (and she was before setting foot on Zuellini). So the only difference between Nina and Haia is the FM fighting experience and maybe the skills usage (Haia learned FM fighting skills, while Nina's skills seem to be oriented toward defending against many humans). Although, I haven't read novel Haia yet.

Also, the anime pretty much made Haia more powerful then powered up Savaris by giving him a bigger flashier fight against Layfon, which make no sense. The anime seems to have powered up Layfon quite a bit, while depowering everybody else when it suited them.

So deciding if Nina's is weak or not is complicated. So far in the novel, I would say that she is one of the most powerful in Zuellini.

Unfortunately, the anime didn't bother explaining anything about MA, like the difference between internal and external kei or gave much of the characters background information available in the novels.

Personally, I'm waiting to read the other translated novels to see just how much the anime changed in the power scale.
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Old 2009-07-04, 12:00   Link #197
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Nina's far from fully trained. She's just in her 3rd year of MA training. And all MA training she's got back in Rigzarion much like the noble's fencing lessons. Not to mention I said comprassion. Haia isn't a boxer, you know. It's just that he got over the same training as Layfon until he's got the HB and fought with many FM. It means an extreme difference in potential if after all that he isn't stronger than Nina.
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Old 2009-07-04, 15:33   Link #198
azarhal
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Quote:
Nina's far from fully trained. She's just in her 3rd year of MA training. And all MA training she's got back in Rigzarion much like the noble's fencing lessons.
She isn't in her 3rd hear of MA training and it wasn't fancy fencing lessons. Like I said, the anime removed a lot of background information. It butchered the "dream of the past" seen in episode 3, where she save the fairy and fell to her death. That happens in vol. 10 and we learn quite a few things about Nina through that dream and her training as a MA before joining Zuellini.

Spoiler for Spoilers for vol. 10:


Nina's problems are (confirmed after 1 translated volume):
  • lack of experience fighting FM,
  • lack of AOE attacks using kei (which might be linked to 3)
  • and using black rods, which have poor conductivity, causing kei attacks to have shorter range. Also those rods aren't the weapons she suited for according to Harley and most of the time we see Nina fight in Zuellini the weapons have the safety on.

Actually, analyzing Nina's fighting skill she's a close range 1vsmany fighters meant to defend an area. Perfect for Intercity matches, but doesn't work well against 20 feet tall monsters though.
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Old 2009-07-04, 15:38   Link #199
willyvereb
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Thanks the information. I sure forgot the thing about her weapons. But I don't get it. Why she's fighting with inferior weapon? Maybe anything other than those rods are easily breaks from her swings? Or something like that? Because if she wants to be stronger then using a good weapon is logical, right?
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Old 2009-07-04, 15:56   Link #200
azarhal
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Thanks the information. I sure forgot the thing about her weapons. But I don't get it. Why she's fighting with inferior weapon? Maybe anything other than those rods are easily breaks from her swings? Or something like that? Because if she wants to be stronger then using a good weapon is logical, right?
I wouldn't call it inferior. After all, they seems prefect for close range gun combat.

I can only speculate about it though:

Training reasons
  • Heavier: means that it practice your endurance a lot more and make you stronger after usage.
  • Bad conductivity: I suppose that it force the user to push more kei into it to make it work. And we know that using kei = kei pool goes up over time.
  • Habit: Nina's to much used to heavy weapons handling.

Fighting reasons
  • Hardness: Doesn't break easily in combat.
  • Weight: Some fighting style require an heavy weapon.
  • Bad conductivity: If kei doesn't go that well through it, that mean that it's a better material to block kei attacks. Making it a better defensive weapon.

Personality:
  • Stubbornness: She decided to use heavy weapon just because.
  • Family tradition: Maybe everybody in the family does it too.

Maybe, if we are lucky, we will get the answer in the novels.
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