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Old 2009-05-20, 15:55   Link #81
Ultramarinus
Disputatio exaro nex
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Geez, Right after Gorneo proposed Layfon interfered insisting Felli should further check the premises and should there are hostiles he’d immediately dispose it. Nina refused Layfon’s offer and follow Gorneo’s advice even though Layfon mentioned that there’s a possibility of crazy monster running loose. Please watch the scene.
I did, she acts cold so it can be interpreted like the way you did. Wrapping it all up, she still changed her mind even though Layfon tried to actively deceive her into thinking like that. She cannot be expected to agree to what he told he did was right. Noone else except Leerin did, even those who knew Layfon for years.
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What I mean Nina wasn’t the one thats responsible in developing squad 17 as character. If Layfon hadn’t showed up they would remain as bums. After Layfon went hax she just goes jealous over her subordinate. A fine example indeed.
And if Nina wasn't there he would remain a bum. After Layfon activated god-mode, she increased her effort to get more powerful. What makes you think it's jealousy?
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No, he stayed reluctant even after Nina’s aggressive motivations. He awakens mostly because (i) Nina was half beaten to death in ep 2; and (ii) he thought of his girl-friends trio.
Yeah, because they act like bums while their commander is forced to wage a one-man war. And when she rushes to defend the city, not caring about dying.
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Yes, but guess what? They’re still alive, Zuellni and the squad that is. Because of who I wonder? The ‘evil’ guy.
So this cool dude who moved to the neighborhood is a nice person and helps people around was in fact a criminal you learn from your co-worker. When you confront him, he says "I stole a bank and killed its guard, I had to do that in order to survive". Would you still say "that's alright man, I met you just recently but you're a good guy"?
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And aggressively attacked his principal despite him having saved Zuellni twice.
He stood back behind his sins, he didn't explain the circumstances leading to them.
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If you mean that the thing that caused Layfon to fight were his trio friends instead of her. Then yes.
He decided to fight for all of them, it was still Nina's action that led to that.
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Yeah your right. Too bad she attacked the Haikizoku head on instead of thinking strategy though.
She didn't have the means to call for help at that point. That's why they didn't even know what happened to her.
Quote:
Yeah, too bad.
No idea what you mean there to be honest.

Now, we began to run in circles a bit so I feel like asking you a question based on a remark done about you earlier: You were called a Nina fan before, what exactly do you like about her?
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Old 2009-05-20, 16:03   Link #82
willyvereb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
@ wilivereb:

A She lacks cool headedness.
B The platoon improves mostly, because of Layfon. She was included on that improvement. That’s my whole point
C ok.
D ok, to each on his own then; and


E
Her goal was to make her team to reach top spot, she relied on Layfon solely for his powers. Those traits were there you know. Right now she’s at a transition period.

Now then,
...
You seriously try to dirty a character? Or we can't understand each other.
You broght up some good facts but you totally show Nina in a negative light.
I reply to some of your points.
A.) You're right, but you position your expectation too high. It needs a serious and cool headed thinker to actually understand that. Felli only accepts what she hears because:
1. she's distanced from almost everything. Including the military arts, communities etc...
2. She loves Layfon
3. She's always cool headed(if not then she must went out her anger almost immediately...extreme emootions a bad thing for her Nen-i control)
4. She may thought something similar could happened in Layfon's past before He told the truth.
B.)Platoon improves? What do you mean? Battle strenght? Naturally. Layfon is an one-man army so it's natural. But actually it was mainly because of Nina(and maybe Leerin's letters) that Layfon actually used his powers. Through Layfon Nina indirectly influenced Felli to use her powers too.
Regarding the teamwork it's mainly Nina's work(actually often just in the backgrounds without showing Nina's work). So the improvement of the platoon directly and indirectly thanks to her. Perhaps without Layfon the platoon would be average at it's best. Layfon, Nina and the situations that made the platoon the thing now it is.
E.) That's one of her developments. She relies on someone. She dares to give that role. If you say that Nina used Layfon then pretty much everyone used him. Felli as her private slave, Karian as his FM buster, Nina as their key fighter, Sharnid to raise his popularity, the Queen(obvious), the governer of the orphanage...pretty much almost everyone. But Layfon said he don't mind being used if it's for the sake of a thing he agrees on.
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Old 2009-05-20, 22:16   Link #83
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_rick
The reason you criticize Nina isn't because she was unjustifiably worried but because the one she doubted was Layfon.
Not exactly, I criticize her because she unjustifiably disapprove of Layfon’s ‘ideal’ or ‘mindset’ or ‘philosophy’ without considering the feats he had done in Zuellni in ep 5 and 7 as I stated to Ultramarinus before. Besides he has been punished accordingly by the Queen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_rick
What if he had turned out to be a bad guy? Wouldn't you criticize her for not realizing he was? Seems like Nina is playing with a double-edged sword in your mind.
It’s a double edge sword as you speak. But in ep 9, where she already knew what’s Layfon capable of from ep 1 – 8, , and so far up to ep 9 Layfon hadn’t done anything deemed as ‘evil’ but instead he saved Zuellni’s twice say, I’d say its alright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_rick
I don't know what having saved Zuellni has to do with her not liking his principals. Sure, if Hitler saved my life I'd be thankful but I doubt you'd be seeing me telling him anything other than his ideals are completely wrong. Layfon certainly isn't Hitler but neither I nor Nina believe that doing whatever it takes to survive an ideal worthy of praise but one certainly to be wary of someone who thinks like that
Gah man, you bring up one of the most extreme example. Okay if ‘Hitler’ had saved millions of citizens including friends and families of New York twice from alien assault I’d be wary too, but considering his expertise in near-future with potential of saving more millions again from alien attacks and like he’s the only one capable on doing it around the area so…

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick rick
It was her words that made him think of them. You seem to want to sidestep that fact.
Okay so Nina gave him speech and telling him he’s a coward and he should just hide and get lost for not using his power. Which he did, Layfon then walked into an empty street and started to think about the trio girlfriends. I don’t it was because of Nina’s words.


Quote:
Layfon when confronted by the Haikizoku attacked head on too. He was just much stronger than Nina. Does using your brain not apply to Layfon either then? Nina like Layfon relies on what she knows best.
Well she should’ve realized the Haikizoku potential danger in ep 14 and that he’s not as strong as Layfon but instead she went head on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
I did, she acts cold so it can be interpreted like the way you did.
Uh okay.

Quote:
And if Nina wasn't there he would remain a bum. After Layfon activated god-mode, she increased her effort to get more powerful. What makes you think it's jealousy?
So all of them are bums and there would be no Regios in the first place. Layfon would remain an idiot who studied General arts and Nina would’ve lost the fights with the 16th. The jealously aspect of Nina could be seen in ep 3, ep 6 and 7 where one of them she decided to cancel one of the training.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
So this cool dude who moved to the neighborhood is a nice person and helps people around was in fact a criminal you learn from your co-worker. When you confront him, he says "I stole a bank and killed its guard, I had to do that in order to survive". Would you still say "that's alright man, I met you just recently but you're a good guy"?
If he is the only guy who’s capable on saving let’s say all the citizens in New York when nobody else could, then probably yes. Provided he had already been punished, and didn’t do anything bad until now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
He stood back behind his sins, he didn't explain the circumstances leading to them.
He remains a good boy up until ep 9. I don’t see why he should change his principle considering all his feats. It’s a double edge-sword as slick_rick mentioned but even with his mindset intact from ep 1 he isn’t strayed off yet. It's his survival philosophy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Yeah, because they act like bums while their commander is forced to wage a one-man war. And when she rushes to defend the city, not caring about dying.
No, Nina was supported by the rest of the platoons. If there’s a one-man war, it’s Layfon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
He decided to fight for all of them, it was still Nina's action that led to that.
In ep 2 it was Nina or a half-beaten to death comrade, in ep 5 Nina told him to get lost. It was the empty street where he started to think about his trio friends

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Now, we began to run in circles a bit so I feel like asking you a question based on a remark done about you earlier: You were called a Nina fan before, what exactly do you like about her?
In a ‘positive’ light:
Quote:
She's using her and others' powers to protect the city, the fairy and its citizens. She doesn't just use others and watches from the back, she puts herself in the thick of the battle without batting an eye. She has to make sure her platoon comes out on top of the matches so that they can make a head start in inter-city battle and prevent the city from disbanding. She needs to win but she still won't take shortcuts just for the sake of it,
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Old 2009-05-20, 23:58   Link #84
rstrafford
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How does Layfon getting punished by the queen have any bearing on how Nina treats him? Besides, by criticizing Nina's behavior towards Layfon, aren't you guilty of the same thing? I don't see how you condemn her actions when they are really justifiable. Nina isn't omniescent; she doesn't see what we do. All she knows is what she hears from Layfon and he's not telling her everything, so naturally she wouldn't have a clear picture of what's going on, especially when Layfon feels shame over the entire event as it is. And because he does, she probably thinks it was something really bad.

And just because Layfon saved the city doesn't automatically clear him of anything; Roy saved Leerin, and we can hardly say that he was good. Nina couldn't be sure about Layfon's intentions, not when they've only been on the same platoon for a short time and when he's already lied about his abilities.
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Old 2009-05-21, 00:11   Link #85
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Not exactly, I criticize her because she unjustifiably disapprove of Layfon’s ‘ideal’ or ‘mindset’ or ‘philosophy’ without considering the feats he had done in Zuellni in ep 5 and 7 as I stated to Ultramarinus before. Besides he has been punished accordingly by the Queen.
I don't see how she was unjustified. From her POV there certainly had a lot of reason to be wary. Certainly he saved the city but the reasoning behind him saving the city is definitely called into question. If all he cares about is surviving then he saved the city only because it was for himself to survive. If the time comes where him surviving entails letting the city be destroyed then that can certainly become a problem. Also he was not the clear with his actual reasoning but instead only played more into the role of an uncaring and cold person when Nina confronted him with the accusations. She also never denied his way of thinking she only said she didn't know if she could work with him because of it.

That a pedophile has been punished by the government certainly doesn't mean that "I" have to allow my child to go around him or associate with them. "You" might chose differently but that doesn't mean my reasoning is unjustified in anyway.




Quote:
It’s a double edge sword as you speak. But in ep 9, where she already knew what’s Layfon capable of from ep 1 – 8, , and so far up to ep 9 Layfon hadn’t done anything deemed as ‘evil’ but instead he saved Zuellni’s twice say, I’d say its alright.
She didn't have your blind faith. I don't know how that makes her any more or less unjustified in her reasoning. For her point of view Layfon was certainly shaping up to be a dark, shady and untrustworthy character.



Quote:
Gah man, you bring up one of the most extreme example. Okay if ‘Hitler’ had saved millions of citizens including friends and families of New York twice from alien assault I’d be wary too, but considering his expertise in near-future with potential of saving more millions again from alien attacks and like he’s the only one capable on doing it around the area so…
I don't get what this has to do with agree or disagree with someone's philosophy. Are you trying to say you'd use Layfon like Kalian does even if you don't agree with him? Certainly that's your choice but I don't know how Nina deciding she's not to type to use another person just because of there abilities when she doesn't trust then is so unjustifiable.



Quote:
Okay so Nina gave him speech and telling him he’s a coward and he should just hide and get lost for not using his power. Which he did, Layfon then walked into an empty street and started to think about the trio girlfriends. I don’t it was because of Nina’s words.
The connection isn't hard to see. Nina tells the the power they gained was to protect those who are important to them. Then while walking in the street he asks himself "A reason for me to fight" and then his friends faces flash into his mind. I think there an obvious connection there don't you? Why is Layfon even walking down the street at that moment? Wasn't he just a minute ago when talking to Nina all about getting the hell out of the city? Where were the faces of his friends then? I certainly can't make you see what you don't want to but this certainly wasn't an abstract scenes by any means.



Quote:
Well she should’ve realized the Haikizoku potential danger in ep 14 and that he’s not as strong as Layfon but instead she went head on.
I don't what you expect her to do. She was sucked into a place where Felli's petals couldn't follow. She couldn't call in for help and there didn't look to be any way for her to escape. Her options were fairly limited to run, fight, or ,apparently the best option in retrospect, pray. I think she chose the one that best fit her even if she had little chance. She's never backed down from Layfon so I don't see her backing down to the Haikizoku either.
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Old 2009-05-21, 00:46   Link #86
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
I don't see how she was unjustified. From her POV there certainly had a lot of reason to be wary. Certainly he saved the city but the reasoning behind him saving the city is definitely called into question. If all he cares about is surviving then he saved the city only because it was for himself to survive. If the time comes where him surviving entails letting the city be destroyed then that can certainly become a problem. Also he was not the clear with his actual reasoning but instead only played more into the role of an uncaring and cold person when Nina confronted him with the accusations. She also never denied his way of thinking she only said she didn't know if she could work with him because of it.
The thing is when ep 9 happened, he had saved Zuellni twice, caring and willing to fend off the FMs alone in ep7. Layfon way of survival was what I posted a few pages back

Spoiler:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
That a pedophile has been punished by the government certainly doesn't mean that "I" have to allow my child to go around him or associate with them. "You" might chose differently but that doesn't mean my reasoning is unjustified in anyway.
You don’t have too, it’s your right. What Nina did is basically forcing her ideals onto him with a possible threat of expulsion. And if you put the situation similar to Layfon this ‘pedophile’s the only one capable to save the city from a massive horde of zombies/aliens/dangers whereas nobody else can’t.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
She didn't have your blind faith. I don't know how that makes her any more or less unjustified in her reasoning. For her point of view Layfon was certainly shaping up to be a dark, shady and untrustworthy character.
He had saved tens of thousands of lives whereas Nina couldn’t. In her views Layfon may shaping to be a dark character. But nevertheless he had saved her and Zuellni twice using his survival instinct I posted above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
Certainly that's your choice but I don't know how Nina deciding she's not to type to use another person just because of there abilities when she doesn't trust then is so unjustifiable.
But should a massive horde of FM’s strikes again she’s bound to rely on his powers again. Because he’s the one that capable of doing that. For the sake of tens of thousands Nina should’ve willing to let this off. Er…which she did actually in the end and remain pissed about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
The connection isn't hard to see. Nina tells the the power they gained was to protect those who are important to them. Then while walking in the street he asks himself "A reason for me to fight" and then his friends faces flash into his mind. I think there an obvious connection there don't you? Why is Layfon even walking down the street at that moment? Wasn't he just a minute ago when talking to Nina all about getting the hell out of the city? Where were the faces of his friends then? I certainly can't make you see what you don't want to but this certainly wasn't an abstract scenes by any means.
Layfon told Nina to evacuate or escape to the shelter, the shelter as seen with the scene with Narki was around the street I think. Don’t know if its really connected and after rewatching that scene around 2 times I think I know what you mean though it occur only after you have pointed this out and I’m still not convinced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
I don't what you expect her to do. She was sucked into a place where Felli's petals couldn't follow. She couldn't call in for help and there didn't look to be any way for her to escape. Her options were fairly limited to run, fight, or ,apparently the best option in retrospect, pray. I think she chose the one that best fit her even if she had little chance. She's never backed down from Layfon so I don't see her backing down to the Haikizoku either.
Which ultimately resulted to her being possessed and getting teleported to Myath along with the fairy.
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Old 2009-05-21, 01:22   Link #87
zibi88
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heh but its fun too look how Nina-lovers are throwing away everything others say about her (the bad things without admitiing rights ) trying to make her a pure-crystal character that is allways right and her own actions dont couse harm to others

I could say only one thing.... Nina will never understand Layfon as much as Leerin does...

Leerin (like layfon is 15years old.... nina 19y) knows way more about the surrounding world (the reality) than Nina (which starts to understand it a little in end of ep19 while flying in the sky >_< wow she really needs to see something with her own eyes to start belive/understand [talkign to her wont make her understand])

Hmm I wonder about ep20.... it seems she is unable to tell everyone that she becomed haikizoku host....... seriously in my eyes she is mean !!!!!! she was demanding the painfull (for Layfon) truth about his past (forcefully digging up the buried past... without thinking over layfons feelings) later she complained about it with her own ideals and started to hate layfon for what he did.....

and here Nina diesppeared for 1-2days along with zerenii.... makeing layfon undergo mental pain (he blamed himself for her disapperance) and makeing him fight waves of monsters even throught he was still injured..... and now she returns and doesnt want to tell abut the truth.........<--- she is damn selfish here.... people should know what happenedd (layfon had to tell in order to make better teamwork.... so she should tell it too in order to make team cooperation better... [after 1-2days disapperance they demand and anser after all]

So nina should tell them the truth and not make it look like 1way ticket that makes: everyone around her have to tell her all their pasts and secrets while she doesnt have to say anything (maybe the haikizoku would make them kinda worry but wouldnt they be more worried if soemthign started to happen with nina and they dont know what is the couse of that)
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Old 2009-05-21, 01:29   Link #88
willyvereb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
The thing is when ep 9 happened, he had saved Zuellni twice, caring and willing to fend off the FMs alone in ep7. Layfon way of survival was what I posted a few pages back

Spoiler:
I see your point but you still can't blame Nina for that. She was confused by all the things she heard.Imagine a situation where you find out that your new friend killed his parents and there's a warrant of caption on him at his previous country? Your friend don't deny it, even so he ensures your suspiction. You known him as a kind and good person, but you can't know him very well after just a short time doesn't it? In truth he's innocent, but he not even told you the situation clearly. I think you would make the same decision as Nina with Layfon. Not to mention Nina has quite a lot of responsibilites on her shoulder to simply ignore that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
You don’t have too, it’s your right. What Nina did is basically forcing her ideals onto him with a possible threat of expulsion. And if you put the situation similar to Layfon this ‘pedophile’s the only one capable to save the city from a massive horde of zombies/aliens/dangers whereas nobody else can’t.
I can't argue with you on that because we can't agree on it no matter what points we bring up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
He had saved tens of thousands of lives whereas Nina couldn’t. In her views Layfon may shaping to be a dark character. But nevertheless he had saved her and Zuellni twice using his survival instinct I posted above.

But should a massive horde of FM’s strikes again she’s bound to rely on his powers again. Because he’s the one that capable of doing that. For the sake of tens of thousands Nina should’ve willing to let this off. Er…which she did actually in the end and remain pissed about it.
Actually Nina understood that the City needs his power, but it doesn't mean she must like him. And if she can't get on well with him then she's only a nuissance to him and he's a problem in the platoon with his different attitude. That's why she adviced that they should part ways. And in something you'r mistaken: It's not neccessary for Layfon to be in the 17th platoon. Actually he could act as a special soldier of Zuellni and Karian could force Felli to work with him. So even if he left the platoon it wouldn't have meant to leave Zuellni unprotected by him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Layfon told Nina to evacuate or escape to the shelter, the shelter as seen with the scene with Narki was around the street I think. Don’t know if its really connected and after rewatching that scene around 2 times I think I know what you mean though it occur only after you have pointed this out and I’m still not convinced.
Nina has zero experience about Filth Monsters and she can't believe that Layfon has either at that time. Maybe that's why she ignored Layfon's words. Perhaps it's played in the light novels much better. The anime misses many elements and that's why Nina is so bitchy with Layfon without any serious reason.

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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Which ultimately resulted to her being possessed and getting teleported to Myath along with the fairy.
Actually even if she ran she had little chance to escape that fate. Not to mention that she actually solved the problem a little. The City stopped and didn't move more deeper into the FM hive. If it continoues then even Layfon couldn't protect them for long.
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Old 2009-05-21, 02:18   Link #89
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
The thing is when ep 9 happened, he had saved Zuellni twice, caring and willing to fend off the FMs alone in ep7. Layfon way of survival was what I posted a few pages back

Spoiler:
The problem is Nina has no way of knowing his "true philosophy" nor does she have any reason to believe that he won't at some point decide to return to the "unlawful" and "bad" way once it suits his needs.



Quote:
You don’t have too, it’s your right. What Nina did is basically forcing her ideals onto him with a possible threat of expulsion. And if you put the situation similar to Layfon this ‘pedophile’s the only one capable to save the city from a massive horde of zombies/aliens/dangers whereas nobody else can’t.
Nina certainly wasn't forcing her ideals on to him with a threat. She could only be threatening him if she felt that the platoon meant a lot to him which she had no reason to believe it did. She certainly didn't tell him he had to changes his ideals in anyway. She just said she didn't know if she could work with him anymore. Certainly if two people morals differ so much that there might arise problems between them then something must be done. Don't you think?

Also I might certainly make use of a pedophile if need to save the city but certainly after it's been saved I might chose to next time take my chances if I don't completely trust that person. My problem is your characterize her actions as irrational. It makes me wonder if you truly understand the meaning of the word. Yes, she chose different than you would and problem even I would. I would probably use Layfon as much as I could and kill him off once he's not needed or becomes a liability. Nina isn't like me but there is certainly good reasoning behind her actions.


Quote:
But should a massive horde of FM’s strikes again she’s bound to rely on his powers again. Because he’s the one that capable of doing that. For the sake of tens of thousands Nina should’ve willing to let this off. Er…which she did actually in the end and remain pissed about it.
Certainly they might need his power later on but I don't see how he's needs to be in Nina's team for them to utilize him. Send him over to another team. For the sake of tens of thousands how much would you allow him to get away with? Might you not try to find a different way than relying on one person to save you every time you were in danger or even just take your chances without him, no matter how slim they were? Do you believe that everyone would/should chose the same path as you? People's morals are undeniably different. I don't know if that means her's or others morals are wrong/irrational because they would chose differently.
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Old 2009-05-21, 02:47   Link #90
Ultramarinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
In a ‘positive’ light:

She's using her and others' powers to protect the city, the fairy and its citizens. She doesn't just use others and watches from the back, she puts herself in the thick of the battle without batting an eye. She has to make sure her platoon comes out on top of the matches so that they can make a head start in inter-city battle and prevent the city from disbanding. She needs to win but she still won't take shortcuts just for the sake of it,
Others have given very detailed and sensible replies to other topics, so I'll rather point out to inconsistencies about what you're constantly bringing up:

So showing what I have written earlier as a response to your criticisms, you accept these and the following are your conflicting ideas:

+ She's using herself and others to protect the city.
- You complain about her using people like tools. You complain about her efforts to get her duties done. You claim that she's only doing it for glory and jealousy.
+ She has to do anything legal to improve her squad and win matches.
- You complain about her using her subordinates like assets. You complain about her confronting the 'free radical' element of her team, who may pose a threat to these objectives.

So which shall it be? It feels like you've wandered off the coast while you tried to criticize basically everything Nina stands for. By any means, I don't see how you like her while denouncing her every aspect that's listed as "Nina in a positive light".
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Old 2009-05-21, 03:02   Link #91
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
The problem is Nina has no way of knowing his "true philosophy" nor does she have any reason to believe that he won't at some point decide to return to the "unlawful" and "bad" way once it suits his needs.
True, but at the very least she should’ve had taken the entire result and feats she witnessed from him from ep 1 and 8 into account, at that time unfortunately, she didn’t.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
Nina certainly wasn't forcing her ideals on to him with a threat. She could only be threatening him if she felt that the platoon meant a lot to him which she had no reason to believe it did. She certainly didn't tell him he had to changes his ideals in anyway. She just said she didn't know if she could work with him anymore. Certainly if two people morals differ so much that there might arise problems between them then something must be done. Don't you think?
Well I agree about the conflicting part, but to summarize it in ep 9 she wouldn’t accept his way his thinking, which resulted that she didn’t know if they could work together anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
Also I might certainly make use of a pedophile if need to save the city but certainly after it's been saved I might chose to next time take my chances if I don't completely trust that person. My problem is your characterize her actions as irrational. It makes me wonder if you truly understand the meaning of the word. Yes, she chose different than you would and problem even I would. I would probably use Layfon as much as I could and kill him off once he's not needed or becomes a liability. Nina isn't like me but there is certainly good reasoning behind her actions.

Certainly they might need his power later on but I don't see how he's needs to be in Nina's team for them to utilize him. Send him over to another team. For the sake of tens of thousands how much would you allow him to get away with? Might you not try to find a different way than relying on one person to save you every time you were in danger or even just take your chances without him, no matter how slim they were? Do you believe that everyone would/should chose the same path as you? People's morals are undeniably different. I don't know if that means her's or others morals are wrong/irrational because they would chose differently.
The whole Grendan ordeal is a thing of the past where he did his crime as a Heaven Blade within Grendan’s jurisdiction. He had duly received his punishment as an exile. Afterwards he went to Zuellni to start a new life. Layfon hadn’t done any mistake or crimes that could be deemed as unlawful within Zuellni’s from ep 1- ep 9, in fact its quite the opposite. He saved the city from a full fms onslaught and contributed the most in killing the dragon bug. He’s a hero instead of a criminal. Though his ‘motives’ still remain questionable for Nina.

Well for me to be honest, if a criminal was already gone through a punishment at some place and arrive at a city, got a job and didn’t do anything wrong in the process while staying there, then at some point an alien assault came and then he saved the city singlehandedly resulting into probably millions saved, including loved ones; then I’ll gladly accept his service regardless what his ‘motives’ are. The city need his expertise no matter what. Especially in world like CSR where horde of hungry bugs could easily consumed an entire city unless the city is of course a broken hax like Grendan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
So showing what I have written earlier as a response to your criticisms, you accept these and the following are your conflicting ideas:

+ She's using herself and others to protect the city.
- You complain about her using people like tools. You complain about her efforts to get her duties done. You claim that she's only doing it for glory and jealousy.
+ She has to do anything legal to improve her squad and win matches.
- You complain about her using her subordinates like assets. You complain about her confronting the 'free radical' element of her team, who may pose a threat to these objectives.

So which shall it be? It feels like you've wandered off the coast while you tried to criticize basically everything Nina stands for. By any means, I don't see how you like her while denouncing her every aspect that's listed as "Nina in a positive light".
You asked what made me like her, right? I still do but she’s not without fault. At positive lights there are flaws hidden, she’s too idealistic and forceful. I could’ve the listed the many good things and qualities that she has which hadn’t been posted yes. But that’s another story.
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Old 2009-05-21, 04:23   Link #92
zibi88
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I personaly wonder what would Nina do if she was pushed in a corner similar to Layfon..... like if Nina dont drop military arts forever someone will hurt zerenii spirit..... or if nina wont hurt someone Zereni spirit will be hurt/killed

what would Nina do in that situation.... Zerenii fairy is that "important part (kinda like person)" thing for Nina (she wants to protect her).......... Layfons case was similar "kids in orphanage (people)" so he was not fighting for himself but was thinking only about them

The differance between those cases is that "zerenii fairy doesnt need cloths,food,books and paying for the building" so all that Nina was doing was to play with her in machinery room.... and so in Layfons situation is the opposite "kids needed cloths,food,books,medicine and paying for the building" and for that he needed lots of money.... he sacraficed his pride & way of thinking that he is not human....

So personaly I see that Nina was working only for herself without worrying about others like Layfon who was thinking only about Leerin and kids in the orphanage


I know that there are Nina-lovers who will not agree in any way with anyone.... but comapreing Layfon's case with Nina is kinda wrong their lifes were quite opposite (not only about that important part their are fighting for..... but the whole life... layfon had to fight with monsters and his mistake could be his death.... and Nina was safely playing in the inner platoon matches where you cant get killed )

Maybe Layfon had others principles.... like orphanage is more important for him than other people in the city but anyway he was fighting monsters and risking his life for the city so what is wrong in wanting to protect what is important to him...... haveing "important thing to him" gives him motivation never to give up and continue to try hard

Nina never had the protecting whole city on her own mind (not talking about her dreams of "I will protect you zerenii" sicne she couldnt defeat even 1larva bug at the end) like Layfon...... HB have to fight alone outside the Regios city while people are liveing safely in the city meantime like nothing is happening....... failing in protecting is not acceptable whatever monster it is running away is not allowed defeat or die....
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Old 2009-05-21, 05:18   Link #93
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
True, but at the very least she should’ve had taken the entire result and feats she witnessed from him from ep 1 and 8 into account, at that time unfortunately, she didn’t.
If it was just Gorneo telling about it, she would have reason to doubt. But Layfon himself is clearly admitting and not regretting the claims. Admittance is without any external pressure on him, how wouldn't you believe the man?

Quote:
The whole Grendan ordeal is a thing of the past where he did his crime as a Heaven Blade within Grendan’s jurisdiction. He had duly received his punishment as an exile. Afterwards he went to Zuellni to start a new life. Layfon hadn’t done any mistake or crimes that could be deemed as unlawful within Zuellni’s from ep 1- ep 9, in fact its quite the opposite. He saved the city from a full fms onslaught and contributed the most in killing the dragon bug. He’s a hero instead of a criminal. Though his ‘motives’ still remain questionable for Nina.

Well for me to be honest, if a criminal was already gone through a punishment at some place and arrive at a city, got a job and didn’t do anything wrong in the process while staying there, then at some point an alien assault came and then he saved the city singlehandedly resulting into probably millions saved, including loved ones; then I’ll gladly accept his service regardless what his ‘motives’ are. The city need his expertise no matter what. Especially in world like CSR where horde of hungry bugs could easily consumed an entire city unless the city is of course a broken hax like Grendan.
Punishment doesn't warrant rehabilitation by itself. It's not a matter of exacting revenge from him for what he did, it's about if he learned his lesson. He says he didn't and that's by itself enough to give second thoughts about working together. I don't know you but I wouldn't work together with a convicted criminal whose crimes defy all I value if I had the chance. It's not like Nina wants him to get exiled, she just would have him replaced to another platoon. This wouldn't have any impact on city's benefit from Layfon. He's happy, she's happy, city happy. Nobody loses anything.
Quote:
You asked what made me like her, right? I still do but she’s not without fault. At positive lights there are flaws hidden, she’s too idealistic and forceful. I could’ve the listed the many good things and qualities that she has which hadn’t been posted yes. But that’s another story.
You have based all of her motivation on desire of glory and jealousy, I'd like to see her good qualities listed by you. As it seems that the paragraph I wrote isn't really what you like about her.
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Old 2009-05-21, 05:40   Link #94
willyvereb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zibi88 View Post
I personaly wonder what would Nina do if she was pushed in a corner similar to Layfon..... like if Nina dont drop military arts forever someone will hurt zerenii spirit..... or if nina wont hurt someone Zereni spirit will be hurt/killed

what would Nina do in that situation.... Zerenii fairy is that "important part (kinda like person)" thing for Nina (she wants to protect her).......... Layfons case was similar "kids in orphanage (people)" so he was not fighting for himself but was thinking only about them

The differance between those cases is that "zerenii fairy doesnt need cloths,food,books and paying for the building" so all that Nina was doing was to play with her in machinery room.... and so in Layfons situation is the opposite "kids needed cloths,food,books,medicine and paying for the building" and for that he needed lots of money.... he sacraficed his pride & way of thinking that he is not human....

So personaly I see that Nina was working only for herself without worrying about others like Layfon who was thinking only about Leerin and kids in the orphanage


I know that there are Nina-lovers who will not agree in any way with anyone.... but comapreing Layfon's case with Nina is kinda wrong their lifes were quite opposite (not only about that important part their are fighting for..... but the whole life... layfon had to fight with monsters and his mistake could be his death.... and Nina was safely playing in the inner platoon matches where you cant get killed )

Maybe Layfon had others principles.... like orphanage is more important for him than other people in the city but anyway he was fighting monsters and risking his life for the city so what is wrong in wanting to protect what is important to him...... haveing "important thing to him" gives him motivation never to give up and continue to try hard

Nina never had the protecting whole city on her own mind (not talking about her dreams of "I will protect you zerenii" sicne she couldnt defeat even 1larva bug at the end) like Layfon...... HB have to fight alone outside the Regios city while people are liveing safely in the city meantime like nothing is happening....... failing in protecting is not acceptable whatever monster it is running away is not allowed defeat or die....
Interesting...
First: I don't know what would Nina do in Layfon's situation if she were completely in the same situation(she would probably do many things similary)
But if we keep Nina's "typical personality"(Honorbound[and honest], Strong-willed and full of energy) then it something similar like that:
Here's my quick-made story about Nina(with her usual personality) in Layfon's shoes at Grendan.
Nina couldn't participate in illegal matches because it dirties the image of Military Arts. Instead she tries to work somewhere(as shop assistant, or worker at the machinery department). Perhaps everyone looks strangely on her as HB reciever. The queen probably forbids her to do that and then Nina asks for help from her. The Queen:
A.maybe she helps her
B.) she don't helps her and Nina must work secretly part-time somewhere(but still a honest work with relatively small pay... Nina believes it can't be helped). In the meantime her childhood friend Harely learns finance and he works in a part-time job too.Maybe Nina even convinces everyone to work for the good of the orphanage. Because thanks to his friend's advice she knows she can't earn enough and she needs the help of others. The news about the working orphanage spreads and many people donates for the well being of the orphans as a reaction.
But someone finds out that Nina at part-time work actually Nina Volfstein Anttalk, the 12th HB reciever and tries to blackmail her to give up her status to her(with losing to him at the MA tournament). Nina nods for it at first, but at the actual tournament she can't do that and defeats him. The guy tells Nina's secret to everyone and it causes a great disturbance. The Queen is angry(she know it all, but she's angry because it found out), but partly to the efect of the public she supports the orphanage and Nina remains a HB reciever.

That's it in short. I left out the angsty and self-hatred parts, but in short that happens when Nina(while she retains her personality from CSR...so as we know her). Like a fairytale? It's not exactly but with Layfon's power and Nina's personality we've got a Marry Sue cause much of Nina's faults comes from her powerlessness.
Perhaps as i said if Nina grows up in the same situation as Layfon her personality somewhat become similar to Layfon's...we don't know which part of her personality is due to background and which one's hers since birth.
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Old 2009-05-21, 05:51   Link #95
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
If it was just Gorneo telling about it, she would have reason to doubt. But Layfon himself is clearly admitting and not regretting the claims. Admittance is without any external pressure on him, how wouldn't you believe the man?
Again, his past feats and deeds from episode 1 till 9 were more than enough to override that. If he’s not there Zuellni, its citizens, the platoon and her would’ve been bug food by ep 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
I don't know you but I wouldn't work together with a convicted criminal whose crimes defy all I value if I had the chance.
In CSR’s case considering: (i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws; (ii) had undergone his punishment, (iii) the environment around are invested hundreds of thousands or probably million creatures thats hungry for human flesh; and (iv) He’s the only one capable defending the city or area where its populations are around tens of thousands where loved ones reside; then overruling such ‘value’ and ‘motive’ are but a small price to pay, at least in my case.
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Old 2009-05-21, 06:07   Link #96
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Again, his past feats and deeds from episode 1 till 9 were more than enough to override that. If he’s not there Zuellni, its citizens, the platoon and her would’ve been bug food by ep 9.
It's clearly not enough, that's why everybody got deceived except Felli. (and Leerin of course, but she knew him longer than anyone else)
Quote:
In CSR’s case considering: (i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws; (ii) had undergone his punishment, (iii) the environment around are invested hundreds of thousands or probably million creatures thats hungry for human flesh; and (iv) He’s the only one capable defending the city or area where its populations are around tens of thousands where loved ones reside; then overruling such ‘value’ and ‘motive’ are but a small price to pay, at least in my case.
You seem to have picked one sentence from the paragraph while the remaining parts included all the reply, pasting it and making the parts you ignored bold:

"Punishment doesn't warrant rehabilitation by itself. It's not a matter of exacting revenge from him for what he did, it's about if he learned his lesson. He says he didn't and that's by itself enough to give second thoughts about working together. I don't know you but I wouldn't work together with a convicted criminal whose crimes defy all I value if I had the chance. It's not like Nina wants him to get exiled, she just would have him replaced to another platoon. This wouldn't have any impact on city's benefit from Layfon. He's happy, she's happy, city happy. Nobody loses anything."

And if anyone likes to, we can move this discussion to Nina's thread.
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Old 2009-05-21, 06:26   Link #97
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
It's clearly not enough, that's why everybody got deceived except Felli. (and Leerin of course, but she knew him longer than anyone else)
Then what’s enough? So Nina should change his ideals completely? Sorry but its Fon-fon’r right to stood by his ideals, especially when he’s contributed more than enough to Zuellni’s population as a whole much more than she did. If she don’t like then tough luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
"Punishment doesn't warrant rehabilitation by itself. It's not a matter of exacting revenge from him for what he did, it's about if he learned his lesson. He says he didn't and that's by itself enough to give second thoughts about working together.
Actually, my answer would’ve been the same as this,

Quote:
In CSR’s case considering: (i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws; (ii) had undergone his punishment, (iii) the environment around are invested hundreds of thousands or probably million creatures thats hungry for human flesh; and (iv) He’s the only one capable defending the city or area where its populations are around tens of thousands where loved ones reside; then overruling such ‘value’ and ‘motive’ are but a small price to pay, at least in my case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
It's not like Nina wants him to get exiled, she just would have him replaced to another platoon. This wouldn't have any impact on city's benefit from Layfon. He's happy, she's happy, city happy. Nobody loses anything.
She disagreed with his ‘ideals’ so she probably decides to rule him out out of the team. She couldn’t accepted Fon-fon’s way of thinking despite the feats he had done and the points I’ve said earlier. Er…..similar result as before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidLin
Do you know if Feli gets kidnapped on purpose or no?
No, man. Sry. For the pics its from the official websites.
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Old 2009-05-21, 06:42   Link #98
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Then what’s enough? So Nina should change his ideals completely? Sorry but its Fon-fon’r right to stood by his ideals, especially when he’s contributed more than enough to Zuellni’s population as a whole much more than she did. If she don’t like then tough luck.
Layfon telling the truth would be enough. And they're not Layfon's real thoughts, he's hiding the truth on purpose. In any case, Layfon would be just moved to another platoon, problem solved.
Quote:
Actually, my answer would’ve been the same as this,
Then you're not understanding the difference between concepts of punishment as revenge and punishment as rehabilitation. Nina doesn't want him to suffer for what he did. She just doesn't want to work with someone whose projected (not real as he hides the truth) ideals conflict fundamentally with hers and also possess risk to the platoon.
Quote:
She disagreed with his ‘ideals’ so she probably decides to rule him out out of the team. She couldn’t accepted Fon-fon’s way of thinking despite the feats he had done and the points I’ve said earlier. Er…..similar result as before.
Yeah, so Nina removing him from the platoon has no harm on the city's well-being, contrary to what you claimed all along.
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Old 2009-05-21, 06:56   Link #99
TrueKnight
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Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Then you're not understanding the difference between concepts of punishment as revenge and punishment as rehabilitation. Nina doesn't want him to suffer for what he did. She just doesn't want to work with someone whose projected (not real as he hides the truth) ideals conflict fundamentally with hers and also possess risk to the platoon.
He had been ‘punished’, ‘penalised’, and had undergone them as an exile. His ‘ideals’ are his and him alone. Its his right. I refer to point (i) of my previous post ‘(i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws’, from ep 1 till 8 he hasn’t done anything wrong. My point (ii) until (iv) just reinforce his worth even further and that’s why Nina should take them into account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Layfon telling the truth would be enough. And they're not Layfon's real thoughts, he's hiding the truth on purpose. In any case, Layfon would be just moved to another platoon, problem solved.

Yeah, so Nina removing him from the platoon has no harm on the city's well-being, contrary to what you claimed all along.
It shows one thing, a person who couldn’t able to accept other people’s opinion or way of thinking despite his past positive feats, just because it conflicted with her self righteous idealistic thinking where she did less than him. You're right, Fon-fon would've been better off under another team.

But of course, ep 10 showed otherwise where she still accepted him there even though she’s pissed about it.
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Old 2009-05-21, 07:12   Link #100
Ultramarinus
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He had been ‘punished’, ‘penalised’, and had undergone them as an exile. His ‘ideals’ are his and him alone. Its his right. I refer to point (i) of my previous post ‘(i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws’, from ep 1 till 8 he hasn’t done anything wrong. My point (ii) until (iv) just reinforce his worth even further and that’s why Nina should take them into account.
It's his crime he defends with those ideals. Yes, it's his right. And it's also Nina's right to remove his from the platoon for that. If it wasn't for his earlier actions, Nina could just fire him on the spot. Heck, Gorneo and his monkey want to kill him even though they're aware of his accomplishments. Why are you so fixated on just Nina's response as if she's the only one who didn't understand him? Sharnid couldn't see it till Felli told them as well.
Quote:
It shows one thing, a person who couldn’t able to accept other people’s opinion or way of thinking despite his past positive feats, just because it conflicted with her self righteous idealistic thinking where she did less than him. You're right, Fon-fon would've been better off under another team.
You're talking as if his crime was stealing bread from bakery. His crimes were severe enough to grant his exile, removal of his rank and hatred from whole Grendan city. The conflict of those ideals weren't something trivial like "you like yellow huh? I don't like it, let's separate".

Nope, Layfon would devolve back into his emo comatose as it's Nina's actions that kept him moving forward. I didn't speculate about "what would happen" anyway.
Quote:
But of course, ep 10 showed otherwise where she still accepted him there even though she’s pissed about it.
Because after all that happened, he still hid the real truth from her. He was literally asking for it.
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