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Old 2009-06-19, 09:25   Link #141
Ultramarinus
Disputatio exaro nex
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
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You cannot judge anything that's being covered up correctly. It's why courts need proper and true evidence to pass the appropriate judgment. Layfon hid the truth and was dealt accordingly. And the circumstances I mentioned was him being made a military artist by the president, which would result in him fighting even if Nina never even saw him once. She already cares about what others think, (see Dinn eps and how she dealt with him) she just didn't want to work together with someone who was apparently against the things she held sacred. She had the right for that as a superior but Layfon's deceit was uncovered and she dropped the matter. The logical course of things.

Huh? Kei-Ra cannon? What are you talking about now? You should be aware that she was under complete control of haikizoku? Do you remember that she was possessed against her will? Let's not make up the events to our convenience as we go along please.

Lianne was wrong as Layfon was and Felli is, refusing to accept the gravity of their situation and avoiding responsibility is what's causing them and the people around them trouble.
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Old 2009-06-19, 09:56   Link #142
TrueKnight
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Layfon was appointed by the president but it was Layfon's misfortune to be picked under her. Despite with all of his heroic feats he already did he misjudged her (which I had stated several pages prior), which up until now she absolutely pales in comparison.

The squad being in the trouble they are right now is because of her hiding her secret. Leerin is there remember?

And again you bringing Felli into the picture, so I'll play Long.Felli represents character individuality who refused being used despite being someone gifted with exceptional powers. Some call this selfish, while the rest call this the 'free will' or 'freedom of right'.

Regardless what her motives and intentions are, she has proven to be a good soldier who had perfomed all her duties admirably as proven from ep 7 to ep 23.

Pales in comparison of what Nina brings, trouble.
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Old 2009-06-19, 09:59   Link #143
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
Well, Alice didn't have any real competition compared to Regios with its multitude of female sidekicks that cater to a wide range of tastes. Not to mention that she doesn't have those to cross swords with, Nina has to face a good deal of adversity from deadpan loli fans and stuff. I'd say it's a matter of availability and competition.
It has NOTHING to do with female competition. Characters have to do something in order for me to hate them. Believe me, there's a reason for everything when it comes to me. EVERYTHING.

Alice was never forceful like Nina. Nowhere near. She also tried her best to understand the people who worked with her, instead of assuming they all wanted the same thing, then got pissed off and emo, when she found out they didn't. She was a lot more mature, and easier to get a long with. From the get-go, Nina forced herself on Layfon. Forced her ideals and beliefs on him. Never once did she try and crack his shell and see where he was coming from. Then, when she finds out something about his past that she didn't like, she goes and tells him they can't be in the same squad now. He had already proven himself and saved her life, the squad's lives, other civilian's lives, as well as the existence of the city. 95% of what she's done, has turned me off to her.

I can't even recall Alice ever doing anything that made me dislike her.
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Old 2009-06-19, 11:00   Link #144
Ultramarinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Layfon was appointed by the president but it was Layfon's misfortune to be picked under her. Despite with all of his heroic feats he already did he misjudged her (which I had stated several pages prior), which up until now she absolutely pales in comparison.
He hid the truth about the matter at hand and received such a qualification, this is this and that is that as the Japanese like to say.
Quote:
The squad being in the trouble they are right now is because of her hiding her secret. Leerin is there remember?
No, the squad is in trouble because Leerin (due to Saya) and Grendan brought the trouble to Czellni's doorstep.
Quote:
And again you bringing Felli into the picture, so I'll play Long.Felli represents character individuality who refused being used despite being someone gifted with exceptional powers. Some call this selfish, while the rest call this the 'free will' or 'freedom of right'.
There was another similarity in the characters surrounding the aforementioned characters, so I brought it along when the situation called for it. And what you say is universally called irresponsibility, due to the setting of Regios.
Quote:
Regardless what her motives and intentions are, she has proven to be a good soldier who had perfomed all her duties admirably as proven from ep 7 to ep 23.

Pales in comparison of what Nina brings, trouble.
She did just play along to Layfon and even her fans admit that, I'll just leave at that to prevent a derail.
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
It has NOTHING to do with female competition. Characters have to do something in order for me to hate them. Believe me, there's a reason for everything when it comes to me. EVERYTHING.
Whatever you say, I just made a guess.
Quote:
Alice was never forceful like Nina. Nowhere near. She also tried her best to understand the people who worked with her, instead of assuming they all wanted the same thing, then got pissed off and emo, when she found out they didn't. She was a lot more mature, and easier to get a long with. From the get-go, Nina forced herself on Layfon. Forced her ideals and beliefs on him. Never once did she try and crack his shell and see where he was coming from. Then, when she finds out something about his past that she didn't like, she goes and tells him they can't be in the same squad now. He had already proven himself and saved her life, the squad's lives, other civilian's lives, as well as the existence of the city. 95% of what she's done, has turned me off to her.

I can't even recall Alice ever doing anything that made me dislike her.
Oh my, to think that I'd have to defend such similarities of characters that are as clear as the day.

Alice literally drove them around in her crusade and yeah, they were all military members so they had to face up to their responsibilities. They still whined about it all the time. What they want or not isn't and shouldn't be her concern as long as they were motivated enough to perform their duties and obey her orders, that's what a military officer is and that's how Nina does as well. She at times got over her head and it's only thanks to Randel intervening that they got off without getting themselves killed. Randel wants to stay away from all those things like Layfon does but Alice is the person that constantly has him placed in all those dangerous situations, just like Nina does. Both of them motivate the lead males because they're aware that it's what suits them and voila! It really is and they come to accept that after all the refusals!

And I have already said it many times before, right like above but again: He deceived her into such a situation and she questioned him thoroughly to leave no doubt. She couldn't have known that, others except Felli were deceived as well yet I don't see anyone blaming them for that. He already was an enigma, hiding his power and acting suspiciously over and over. As soon as Felli explains his act to them, she reforms her stance about the matter which is as good as it can get.

I'm not trying to make anyone like Nina, but the shared traits are as close as it can get for these three characters and Nina is like a bridge connecting the others by having common stuff from both. That doesn't necessarily make them all the same but they're as close as it can get without being copy-cats.
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Old 2009-06-19, 11:32   Link #145
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
He hid the truth about the matter at hand and received such a qualification, this is this and that is that as the Japanese like to say.
Layfon hid his secret while bringing positive feats, Nina hid hers while causing the exact opposite. Trouble, which she is good at right now sadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
No, the squad is in trouble because Leerin (due to Saya) and Grendan brought the trouble to Czellni's doorstep.
Which could be prevented should she told her before hand. The 'circumstances' made it even clearer. She simply neglected them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
There was another similarity in the characters surrounding the aforementioned characters, so I brought it along when the situation called for it. And what you say is universally called irresponsibility, due to the setting of Regios.
Nina fits this 'irresponsibility', she chickned out and in fear in telling her secret because of her fears not realizing the risk. When the 'situation' calls for it, she fails in handling them, resulting the troubles we've seen so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
She did just play along to Layfon and even her fans admit that, I'll just leave at that to prevent a derail.
Her attitude caused a much lesser impact and aftermath, while Nina 's brought a total near catastrophy with an HB finally gets a hand on her, potentially causing a much larger havoc. She's a victim of circumstantes, because she alone failed in preventing them due to her inability to lead and think thoroughly. Felli did the right thing asking her secret back then. So much could've been prevented but for naught. All because of Nina.
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Old 2009-06-19, 12:06   Link #146
Ultramarinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Layfon hid his secret while bringing positive feats, Nina hid hers while causing the exact opposite. Trouble, which she is good at right now sadly.
Layfon covered some of the facts which led people to misunderstand the motive behind his actions, his other actions don't negate that. The reason why he did so? We haven't found out yet, all that's apparent is that caused him to get misunderstood by the WHOLE world except Leerin, which brought real trouble in the form people trying to kill him and go as far as kidnapping his comrades for that reason. What were you talking about, secrets that bring trouble? There you go. He still didn't let it out.

OTOH, Nina hid a secret that would bring trouble if it wasn't kept a secret and as we see, for understandable reasons. Ignasis, Grendan, mercenary company, everyone's out looking for the host and they don't pull any punches.
Quote:
Which could be prevented should she told her before hand. The 'circumstances' made it even clearer. She simply neglected them.
No, Savaris was already there. Grendan arrived shortly after. President wanted to extract it right away and Leerin was clueless about the whole issue.
Quote:
Nina fits this 'irresponsibility', she chickned out and in fear in telling her secret because of her fears not realizing the risk. When the 'situation' calls for it, she fails in handling them, resulting the troubles we've seen so far.
Irresponsibility is avoiding doing honest work for the good of the people to earn a living. It's not getting scared of being chased by literally everyone except your close friends to get what they want at the cost of your life.
Quote:
Her attitude caused a much lesser impact and aftermath, while Nina 's brought a total near catastrophy with an HB finally gets a hand on her, potentially causing a much larger havoc. She's a victim of circumstantes, because she alone failed in preventing them due to her inability to lead and think thoroughly. Felli did the right thing asking her secret back then. So much could've been prevented but for naught. All because of Nina.
She's not putting her hand under any stone and she still was about cost 60k lives directly, on her own will. Nina being kidnapped by a HB affects nobody else except her. Nothing could be prevented and we saw that in this last episode. Did Leerin say anything like "bring her to me, I'll fix it"? No. Did the president say "don't worry, we'll protect her"? No. Did anyone else propose a solution that didn't put her into risk? No. Nothing would change. As for Felli, she didn't care the least bit about anything else than trying to reduce her influence on Layfon. What was her reaction after learning? "So you want us to kill the captain?" Oh man, I'm so moved that I'm in tears! She cares so much about Nina!
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Old 2009-06-19, 12:09   Link #147
willyvereb
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Lol...seriously TrueKnight: You think about Nina as some kind of machine...well we're speaking about a character that included in visual and written mediums too so let's not forget the LN Nina. She's less bitchy and more considerate in the them...somehow the anime managed to degrade every character(It's ok if they're cutting out scenes...but adding meaningless things?). Anyways if we speak about Alice in Pumpkin Scissors made worse and similary reckless decisions. The differences lies elsewhere: She acts more feminine and noble-like(not to mention that no one ever mistook her gender).

Last edited by willyvereb; 2009-06-19 at 12:42.
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Old 2009-06-19, 12:16   Link #148
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Layfon hid his secret while bringing positive feats, Nina hid hers while causing the exact opposite. Trouble, which she is good at right now sadly.
Layfon positive feats didn't come until Nina talked/forced some sense into him. Otherwise he'd be the same Layfon from early episodes who was running away from his problems. Also I don't know how much of this can even be contributed to her. Her hiding of the secret didn't cause Savaris to come to the city to kidnap the goat he'd still do that if it was inside someone else. The big evil guy isn't coming to the city for Nina but for Leerin and Saya. So why aren't you blaming them? Was Haia her fault too? Maybe Layfon's need to stop attracting people who want to kill/fight him.



Quote:
Which could be prevented should she told her before hand. The 'circumstances' made it even clearer. She simply neglected them.
Explain to me how it could have been prevented? Would Savaris have given up if they somehow extracted the goat(possibly killing Nina in the process) or would he still steal it? I don't know anyone in the city besides Layfon would could stop him so I don't know how much good extracting it would have done, if any. As for the rest I have no idea how she's can even be given the slightest blame, though I don't doubt you could come up with some nonsensical reason like always to push the blame on her.



Quote:
Nina fits this 'irresponsibility', she chickned out and in fear in telling her secret because of her fears not realizing the risk. When the 'situation' calls for it, she fails in handling them, resulting the troubles we've seen so far.
The risk was 99 percent to her and no one else. The goat didn't go looking to kill innocent citizens but FM so even she died in the process then that's doesn't hurt anyone else. I don't see how any of this is actually a result of Nina. I don't know where you pull that idea from honestly. It's both illogical and plain silly. If we take Nina out of the situation we still have the goat running lose or in someone else, Savaris still looking to capture it, and big bad still looking to kill Leerin/Saya. You make no sense.



Quote:
Her attitude caused a much lesser impact and aftermath, while Nina 's brought a total near catastrophy with an HB finally gets a hand on her, potentially causing a much larger havoc. She's a victim of circumstantes, because she alone failed in preventing them due to her inability to lead and think thoroughly. Felli did the right thing asking her secret back then. So much could've been prevented but for naught. All because of Nina.
I don't see how it changed anything. All I see is you singing the same ole song consisting of throwing all the blame to Nina while ignoring all the positive changes she help made in Layfon. Even Layfon say that he doesn't blame her and he could have found a different way to live if he'd realized things sooner.
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Old 2009-06-19, 12:31   Link #149
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Layfon covered some of the facts which led people to misunderstand the motive behind his actions, his other actions don't negate that. The reason why he did so? We haven't found out yet, all that's apparent is that caused him to get misunderstood by the WHOLE world except Leerin, which brought real trouble in the form people trying to kill him and go as far as kidnapping his comrades for that reason. What were you talking about, secrets that bring trouble? There you go. He still didn't let it out.
Because of her closed minded thinking, that didn't realize what Fon-fon did post Grendan pales compared why she did back then. That was keep relying on him to do everything. She's useless without Layfon and Felli.


Quote:
OTOH, Nina hid a secret that would bring trouble if it wasn't kept a secret and as we see, for understandable reasons. Ignasis, Grendan, mercenary company, everyone's out looking for the host and they don't pull any punches.
In the end what happened? She went berserk, riskingher squad a as target for the cannon, finally being subdued by a crazy HB. Nothing but trouble.

Quote:
No, Savaris was already there. Grendan arrived shortly after. President wanted to extract it right away and Leerin was clueless about the whole issue.
Because she keeps it hidden from her squad, So she wouldn't know about it. smart move by Nina as always.

Quote:
Irresponsibility is avoiding doing honest work for the good of the people to earn a living. It's not getting scared of being chased by literally everyone except your close friends to get what they want at the cost of your life.
Irresponsibility is also stop bringing trouble to the people around you that nearly got them killed. Like what Nina failed to do.

Quote:
She's not putting her hand under any stone and she still was about cost 60k lives directly, on her own will. Nina being kidnapped by a HB affects nobody else except her. Nothing could be prevented and we saw that in this last episode. Did Leerin say anything like "bring her to me, I'll fix it"? No. Did the president say "don't worry, we'll protect her"? No. Did anyone else propose a solution that didn't put her into risk? No. Nothing would change. As for Felli, she didn't care the least bit about anything else than trying to reduce her influence on Layfon. What was her reaction after learning? "So you want us to kill the captain?" Oh man, I'm so moved that I'm in tears! She cares so much about Nina!
What Felli did all this time, her feats totally contradicts the above. While Nina with her idealistic intention of helping others brought nothing but catastrophic so far. She's reckless, unexperienced, selfish, thinks she knows best about everything, when she actually dont. Depending on the rest of the squad saving her till the very end. She brought the most liability for her squad whether you like it or not.
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Old 2009-06-19, 12:56   Link #150
Ultramarinus
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You seem to be ignoring what I wrote whatsoever and go as far as bending the events rather than replying now. So I'll make use of some bold to highlight so those won't escape any eyes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Because of her closed minded thinking, that didn't realize what Fon-fon did post Grendan pales compared why she did back then. That was keep relying on him to do everything. She's useless without Layfon and Felli.
Everybody got deceived by Layfon except Leerin and Felli understood it later. It's got nothing to do with anybody's mind, Nina's not telepathic. And nope, she was ready to let him go on ep 9 when he covered up and again on ep 17 she tried to have the squad carry his burden.
Quote:
In the end what happened? She went berserk, riskingher squad a as target for the cannon, finally being subdued by a crazy HB. Nothing but trouble.
Those didn't happen because she kept it secret, the outcome would be the same no matter what.
Quote:
Because she keeps it hidden from her squad, So she wouldn't know about it. smart move by Nina as always.
Leerin already knew about it, she still did NOTHING.
Quote:
Irresponsibility is also stop bringing trouble to the people around you that nearly got them killed. Like what Nina failed to do.
And how exactly could she prevent that? Could anyone except Layfon resist haikizoku? Can anyone possessed control haikizoku? Does anyone want to suppress haikizoku? Or they all want to get their hands on it at the cost of the host's life?
Quote:
What Felli did all this time, her feats totally contradicts the above. While Nina with her idealistic intention of helping others brought nothing but catastrophic so far. She's reckless, unexperienced, selfish, thinks she knows best about everything, when she actually dont. Depending on the rest of the squad saving her till the very end. She brought the most liability for her squad whether you like it or not.
Her so-called 'feats' (which consists of playing walkie-talkie and GPS) are never ever made for others, it's just for herself alone. Even when it's for Layfon, it's because she doesn't want her toy to get broken. Does she ever respect a choice Layfon makes? Does she ever apologize for her wrongdoing?

As for your claims about Nina, you have got nothing to back it up. You're constantly avoiding logical explanations and just blame everything on her. I don't like Felli but I'm not trying to load all the blame for everything on her, she's only responsible for what she did and wants to do on her own free will. So it looks more and more like you're making stuff up just for the sake or your argument. Sorry but it has become too apparent in this last page, like others noted.
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Old 2009-06-19, 12:57   Link #151
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
Layfon positive feats didn't come until Nina talked/forced some sense into him. Otherwise he'd be the same Layfon from early episodes who was running away from his problems. Also I don't know how much of this can even be contributed to her. Her hiding of the secret didn't cause Savaris to come to the city to kidnap the goat he'd still do that if it was inside someone else. The big evil guy isn't coming to the city for Nina but for Leerin and Saya. So why aren't you blaming them? Was Haia her fault too? Maybe Layfon's need to stop attracting people who want to kill/fight him.
You’re right, he did grew because of Nina. But it also had the opposite effect on her, where he told her to lead and move on. Nina should’ve told them their secret because Zuellni have detterents by then, which are Layfon and Leerin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_Rick
Explain to me how it could have been prevented? Would Savaris have given up if they somehow extracted the goat(possibly killing Nina in the process) or would he still steal it? I don't know anyone in the city besides Layfon would could stop him so I don't know how much good extracting it would have done, if any. As for the rest I have no idea how she's can even be given the slightest blame, though I don't doubt you could come up with some nonsensical reason like always to push the blame on her.
Well not exactly extracting, but I’m playing Leerin into the picture here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
The risk was 99 percent to her and no one else. The goat didn't go looking to kill innocent citizens but FM so even she died in the process then that's doesn't hurt anyone else. I don't see how any of this is actually a result of Nina. I don't know where you pull that idea from honestly. It's both illogical and plain silly. If we take Nina out of the situation we still have the goat running lose or in someone else, Savaris still looking to capture it, and big bad still looking to kill Leerin/Saya. You make no sense.
Again you’re correct that her risks are hers alone. But because of her hiding it her squad became worried, and in the end came after her, with the risk being shot by the cannon and raped by Savaris, creating an ‘unnecessary risk’ in the aftermath, which could’ve been prevented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
I don't see how it changed anything. All I see is you singing the same ole song consisting of throwing all the blame to Nina while ignoring all the positive changes she help made in Layfon. Even Layfon say that he doesn't blame her and he could have found a different way to live if he'd realized things sooner.
Yes I agree. Thanks for reminding. I admit that Layfon grew the most because of her influences. I’m just disappointed what Layfon had received in return from her are not worth it. She admits and apologized too late in a freaking ep 23. I really like her up to ep 15. But immediately despised her on ep 16 when she’s thinking Layfon only as a tool for the match instead of his well being. Ep 23 lifted my views on her again, though only a bit.

Ahem, responding to Ultramarinus,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
You seem to be ignoring what I wrote whatsoever and go as far as bending the events rather than replying now. So I'll make use of some bold to highlight so those won't escape any eyes.

Everybody got deceived by Layfon except Leerin and Felli understood it later. It's got nothing to do with anybody's mind, Nina's not telepathic. And nope, she was ready to let him go on ep 9 when he covered up and again on ep 17 she tried to have the squad carry his burden.
Yes, with only her being concerned about it. Others don’t because they know who he is. But not Nina because of her closed-mindedness back then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Those didn't happen because she kept it secret, the outcome would be the same no matter what.
Oh? Not even with Leerin involved? I don’t; think so. Her secrecy is what caused her squad getting into trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Leerin already knew about it, she still did NOTHING.
Because she realized it when Nina’s already missing. She went to shelter because surprise, she’s a civilian. A critical momentum was lost because of secrecy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
And how exactly could she prevent that? Could anyone except Layfon resist haikizoku? Can anyone possessed control haikizoku? Does anyone want to suppress haikizoku? Or they all want to get their hands on it at the cost of the host's life?
Yes there is. Leerin, with Layfon as their bodyguard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Her so-called 'feats' (which consists of playing walkie-talkie and GPS) are never ever made for others, it's just for herself alone. Even when it's for Layfon, it's because she doesn't want her toy to get broken. Does she ever respect a choice Layfon makes? Does she ever apologize for her wrongdoing?
Oh? But others reap those benefits, that is, citizens, the city, including our dear captain. She’s terribly lucky to have people with Layfon’s and Felli’s caliber under her wings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
As for your claims about Nina, you have got nothing to back it up. You're constantly avoiding logical explanations and just bşmae everything on her. I don't like Felli but I'm not trying to load all the blame for everything on her, she's only responsible for what she did and wants to do on her own free will. So it looks more and more like you're making stuff up just for the sake or your argument. Sorry but it has become too apparent in this last page, like others noted.
As are you, you’re avoiding my arguments which I’ve stated prior. Those stuffs you listed could’ve been prevented. But all are naught. As we can see, Nina so far are creating nothing but trouble, with all the remedies available back then.

Last edited by TrueKnight; 2009-06-19 at 13:10.
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Old 2009-06-19, 15:32   Link #152
willyvereb
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Sorry...but we could blame everyone with this mindset...
For example: Felli needlessly kicks Layfon whatever she feels pissed...why? Why she can't deal with it. Because of her circumstances...Layfon states himself always as a villian and perhaps everyone misunderstood him...why? Because he thinks negatively about himself...(or again) Felli argues with Layfon while he needs her help in ep 5...she endangers the people's life with that needless chatter...why? Because her circumstances and personality. Then Layfon everexerts himself without thinking about the others...result: Felli's collapse...why? Because his reasons.
Everyone of those actions were selfish...everyone acts selfish in a way and most of them never apologises for it. Why don't you let Nina act a bit selfish?
You should be the personalification of Nina's Self-hatred
Because she thinks that too what you said about her and hates herself every time when she does anything that relatively selfish or she (directly indirectly) couses something or endangers someone.

Last edited by willyvereb; 2009-06-19 at 16:09.
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Old 2009-06-19, 16:17   Link #153
Ultramarinus
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Yes, with only her being concerned about it. Others don’t because they know who he is. But not Nina because of her closed-mindedness back then.
Others don't because they have zero responsibility about a screw-up, she's the captain of her squad so she needs to be sure everyone can pull off teamwork and not do something outrageous to save their skin, just what Layfon professed he did.
Quote:
Oh? Not even with Leerin involved? I don’t; think so. Her secrecy is what caused her squad getting into trouble.
Once more you're taking your own speculation as a fact, Leerin did nothing and didn't even try or intend to do anything after coming to Czellni and even having chat with Nina, with the knowledge about haikizoku. Even when Layfon went after Nina, she said nothing like "bring her to me, I'll fix it". Nothing, nada, zero. Your speculation has no ground.
Quote:
Because she realized it when Nina’s already missing. She went to shelter because surprise, she’s a civilian. A critical momentum was lost because of secrecy.
She knew it already, she met Nina in person and talked in Czellni, at the hospital. Did she say even one word about haikizoku? No. That proves she is totally clueless about what it is, what can occur and therefore, how it can be fixed. Your speculation isn't a fact.
Quote:
Yes there is. Leerin, with Layfon as their bodyguard.
So let's see.. On one hand there's your speculation of Leerin suppressing the goat and on the other hand your proposal of Layfon opposing Czellni, Grendan, Ignasis and triumphing over them? Layfon is god-like sure, but not god.
Quote:
Oh? But others reap those benefits, that is, citizens, the city, including our dear captain. She’s terribly lucky to have people with Layfon’s and Felli’s caliber under her wings.
They're terribly lucky to have a captain who could utilize their powers, or they were monster food already back in ep 5.
Quote:
As are you, you’re avoiding my arguments which I’ve stated prior. Those stuffs you listed could’ve been prevented. But all are naught. As we can see, Nina so far are creating nothing but trouble, with all the remedies available back then.
I have already commented on your wild speculations that are based on no proof while you evade the facts presented and even bend them at times. I enjoy our discussion but you're just going too far to blame everything on Nina, even stuff that are totally remote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Sorry...but we could blame everyone with this mindset...
Exactly, I'll go ahead and make people responsible for things in the same way:

- Nina ended up that way because Layfon resisted the goat!
- Nina ended up that way because Layfon sent her to goat!
- Nina got kidnapped because Leerin brought Savaris to be able to just see her beloved Layfon, the selfish girl!
- Platoon 17 is threatened by kei-ra cannon because Leerin holds to biggest bait for Ignasis, bringing all those monsters to Czellni!

See, you can pull stuff out of nowhere and blame people if you pull enough strings to make up facts. That's why we should remain strictly on what people did based on what they knew and their own will. Otherwise it becomes a big, senseless mess.
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Old 2009-06-19, 16:52   Link #154
Tjaard
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Nina's thread is always a mess lol
If you ask me i think that all 3 are selfish girl but anyone for different reason.
Nina want more power for protect what she want, involving other people for his desire; Felli found someone that understand her, so help that person until can, never mind the other, and want that person look only her; Leerin want only stay with Layfon, and does anything because this happen, never mind all those who knows and has known, as the children at the orphanage or her foster father, using her understanding of his past as an excuse for all.
One of motive that i prefer Nina is because her selfish isn't something which has layfon as reason, but is really for herself.
And well, Mayshen... yeah... Mayshen is moe... really really moe... but... for me is pretty annoying
But well anyone have his reason her for be a fan of someone so calm down a little
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Old 2009-06-19, 21:29   Link #155
TrueKnight
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Others don't because they have zero responsibility about a screw-up, she's the captain of her squad so she needs to be sure everyone can pull off teamwork and not do something outrageous to save their skin, just what Layfon professed he did.
Explain ‘screw ups’. I’ll resort to my arguments I’ve stated prior pages ago,

Spoiler:


And I still stand on such previous argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Once more you're taking your own speculation as a fact, Leerin did nothing and didn't even try or intend to do anything after coming to Czellni and even having chat with Nina, with the knowledge about haikizoku. Even when Layfon went after Nina, she said nothing like "bring her to me, I'll fix it". Nothing, nada, zero. Your speculation has no ground.

She knew it already, she met Nina in person and talked in Czellni, at the hospital. Did she say even one word about haikizoku? No. That proves she is totally clueless about what it is, what can occur and therefore, how it can be fixed. Your speculation isn't a fact.
Remedies were there but the ‘momentum’ was lost. Because of period of moment starting from Felli’s event up to Leerin’s arrival was not used. Instead she kept them for herself.

And once again I ask you. What are the facts already happened? Nina screwed up. She brought trouble. But were there remedies, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
So let's see.. On one hand there's your speculation of Leerin suppressing the goat and on the other hand your proposal of Layfon opposing Czellni, Grendan, Ignasis and triumphing over them? Layfon is god-like sure, but not god.
Leerin for the goat, Layfon for Savaris. Ignasis so far is for Dixerio and the other HBs. It’s there. As could’ve been if not for her insistence on bearing all the scret.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
They're terribly lucky to have a captain who could utilize their powers, or they were monster food already back in ep 5.
Who saved Nina I wonder? Who saved Zuellni? Not Nina. It was Layfon and Felli.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utramarinus
I have already commented on your wild speculations that are based on no proof while you evade the facts presented and even bend them at times. I enjoy our discussion but you're just going too far to blame everything on Nina, even stuff that are totally remote.
If you want facts, what already happened, then I’ll repost my previous thought once again,

Quote:
She went berserk, riskingher squad a as target for the cannon, finally being subdued by a crazy HB. Nothing but trouble.
She brought trouble for her squad and unfit to be a leader, forcing her views onto others, she's not strong, but Layfon is, which she later admitted and apologized.

You argue nothing could be done about it, well I’ve stated the possible remedies.
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Old 2009-06-19, 23:49   Link #156
Slick_rick
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- Arrived at Zuellni, during this has his motive of survival;- His motive was more about running away than anything else.
- Beat squad 16, during this has his motive of survival; False. He was certainly not at risk but Nina was. He jumped into help her not for survival.
- Saved the city in ep 5, during this has his motive of survival; False. He was going to run away at first per his survival instincts until Nina verbally beat him into reconsidering his actions. He then went because of his friends.
- Fighting the dragon in ep 7 saving the city again, during this has his motive of survival; -This had more to do with the President blackmailing him than anything else but I'll give you survival here. Though you fail to mention that the rest of the Platoon came to help him out once they found out.
- Fighting Gorneo and co, during this has his motive of survival; -Not really. Gorneo was out for revenge and Layfon mostly just want to show him that he wasn't such a bad guy. If it was about survival killing Gorneo would have been the best opinion.
- Conducting surveillance to the Goat City; during this has his motive of survival; -Wasn't just he doing his job?
- Confront Nina, his past exposed, stood by his ideals and during this has his motive of survival -More like he tried to hide behind these ideals as a way to excuse his actions in the past. Either way though this certainly has nothing to do with survival. Whether he stood by them or recanted them Nina wasn't going to kill him.
- Confront Shante and Gorneo who probably intends to kill him, beat them off, but he spared them, during this has his motive of survival; -I only remember one fight between these guys as I stated earlier. My past statement still holds true.
- Ep 12 – ep 15, during these periods he has his motive of survival; No not at all. I don't know where you even pulled this one out of. Dinn's arc had nothing to do with Layfon's survival philosophy.

Quote:
And I still stand on such previous argument.
You probably shouldn't cause they're not very sturdy.


Quote:
Remedies were there but the ‘momentum’ was lost. Because of period of moment starting from Felli’s event up to Leerin’s arrival was not used. Instead she kept them for herself.

And once again I ask you. What are the facts already happened? Nina screwed up. She brought trouble. But were there remedies, yes.
What remedies? Please be specific. I don't think us or her have been shown any of the sort. You deal in broad generalization without getting into specifics(mostly because once you do you realize you have little basis for your argument). I don't remember Nina was the one who brought the goat to Zuellni nor was she the one who brought this filth monsters there either.

Quote:
Leerin for the goat, Layfon for Savaris. Ignasis so far is for Dixerio and the other HBs. It’s there. As could’ve been if not for her insistence on bearing all the scret.
You're asking Nina to have a magical third sight. She had no idea Leerin was coming to the city nor the fact that Leerin is anyway able to keep the goat in check, which is only a theory. She also has no idea a crazed HB is after her, nor did Dixerio seem to want to fill her in on this Ignasis person. Nor would she be able to warn people this since she herself is in the dark. Her not keeping the secret would not have change these things and instead could have caused Nina to become like poor Dinn instead.


Quote:
Who saved Nina I wonder? Who saved Zuellni? Not Nina. It was Layfon and Felli.
Who got Layfon to get off his emo butt? Not Felli, it was Nina. Layfon then got Felli off hers. So either way I see it it's a team effort. Don't you think?



Quote:
She brought trouble for her squad and unfit to be a leader, forcing her views onto others, she's not strong, but Layfon is, which she later admitted and apologized.

You argue nothing could be done about it, well I’ve stated the possible remedies.
Same ole song. Nina did admit that she "felt" that way but you failed to mention that Layfon admitting that he wasn't forced, that he too had made mistakes in his past and wished he chosen differently, and also that he trusts her as leader.

You've not stated any remedies to this situation. You've used the word a lot but little beyond that.
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Old 2009-06-20, 00:30   Link #157
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_rick
Arrived at Zuellni, during this has his motive of survival;- His motive was more about running away than anything else.
No, he was exiled. He didn’t want to leave Grendan but he conducted a crime. Zuellni is the only city he could only admitted to and he applied for general arts, because he sucks at academic. Source: Ep 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
- Beat squad 16, during this has his motive of survival; False. He was certainly not at risk but Nina was. He jumped into help her not for survival
Which only reinforce my point. He didn’t care for himself, he would’ve let Nina beaten down but he didn’t.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
- Saved the city in ep 5, during this has his motive of survival; False. He was going to run away at first per his survival instincts until Nina verbally beat him into reconsidering his actions. He then went because of his friends
Though I still think that mostly he did that because of his concerns over Mei and Co, it also didn’t change the fact that he had those motives post Grendan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
- Fighting the dragon in ep 7 saving the city again, during this has his motive of survival; -This had more to do with the President blackmailing him than anything else but I'll give you survival here. Though you fail to mention that the rest of the Platoon came to help him out once they found out.
He did this through his own will, he likes to help. Source: early ep 6. The rest of platoon did come to help, but he played the most instrumental part as Kallian had said, and Zuellni won’t be able to survive without him back then, source: ep 17.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
- Fighting Gorneo and co, during this has his motive of survival; -Not really. Gorneo was out for revenge and Layfon mostly just want to show him that he wasn't such a bad guy. If it was about survival killing Gorneo would have been the best opinion.
But in the end, he spared Gorneo while keeping his survival motives intact. That is why Nina’s pissed and decided to let this slide, source: ep 10.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_ rick
- Conducting surveillance to the Goat City; during this has his motive of survival; -Wasn't just he doing his job?
The risk being questioned here was his ‘motives’, he had them, so they should considered dangerous. But facts proves otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
- Confront Nina, his past exposed, stood by his ideals and during this has his motive of survival -More like he tried to hide behind these ideals as a way to excuse his actions in the past. Either way though this certainly has nothing to do with survival. Whether he stood by them or recanted them Nina wasn't going to kill him
Layfon himself told her it was about survival, and Nina was upset because for survival he’s willing to taint the Martial Arts and participated in underground matches. Source: ep 9.

But it was all in the past. In Grendan, he had been duly punished. Post Grendan he did nothing but positive feats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
- Confront Shante and Gorneo who probably intends to kill him, beat them off, but he spared them, during this has his motive of survival; -I only remember one fight between these guys as I stated earlier. My past statement still holds true.
Like I said, he spared Gorneo while keeping his survival motives intact. Source ep: 10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
- Ep 12 – ep 15, during these periods he has his motive of survival; No not at all. I don't know where you even pulled this one out of. Dinn's arc had nothing to do with Layfon's survival philosophy.
Please refer to Goat-City Surveillance.

With these, I still stand on my previous statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
What remedies? Please be specific. I don't think us or her have been shown any of the sort. You deal in broad generalization without getting into specifics(mostly because once you do you realize you have little basis for your argument). I don't remember Nina was the one who brought the goat to Zuellni nor was she the one who brought this filth monsters there either.
Leerin, ep 19, when the bird ask her to pray for Saya. The goat then could be surpressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
You're asking Nina to have a magical third sight. She had no idea Leerin was coming to the city nor the fact that Leerin is anyway able to keep the goat in check, which is only a theory. She also has no idea a crazed HB is after her, nor did Dixerio seem to want to fill her in on this Ignasis person. Nor would she be able to warn people this since she herself is in the dark. Her not keeping the secret would not have change these things and instead could have caused Nina to become like poor Dinn instead.
The Haikizoku had been the target of Grendan. Her team should’ve been informed. She didn’t realized the impact but she kept it hidden out of fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_Rick
Who got Layfon to get off his emo butt? Not Felli, it was Nina. Layfon then got Felli off hers. So either way I see it it's a team effort. Don't you think?
Also referring to ep 5 explanation prior, eh…though your Nin -> Layfon -> Felli also made sense I admit. >_>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
Same ole song. Nina did admit that she "felt" that way but you failed to mention that Layfon admitting that he wasn't forced, that he too had made mistakes in his past and wished he chosen differently, and also that he trusts her as leader.
But Layfon did commit a crime, and was duly punished. His concern was he’s battle hungry maniac who wanted to use a katana again…..But so far he managed control his inner self.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
You've not stated any remedies to this situation. You've used the word a lot but little beyond that.
Made Leerin pray to Saya in order to further surpress the goat’s havoc. While for Savaris, I’m playing Layfon.
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Old 2009-06-20, 01:36   Link #158
Slick_rick
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You'll need to define what you mean by a "survival" motive. You seem to be trying to hide behind the vagueness of that term. To me it means that he would do anything illegal and immoral to ensure his own and things he cares about survival. We see him do this is with Gorneo but he was of course just acting to show that he's not like that anymore. We see him also almost doing it during the battle with the FM as it immoral to allow the city to be destroyed when you have to power to stop it or let a comrade be beaten because you feel like hiding your true strength.


Quote:
Leerin, ep 19, when the bird ask her to pray for Saya. The goat then could be surpressed.
Not a remedy. The goat is still instead her right? The praying only temporarily suppressed the goat it didn't stop it from continuing to go wild did it now? Suppression does not equal cure which is what a remedy is.



Quote:
The Haikizoku had been the target of Grendan. Her team should’ve been informed. She didn’t realized the impact but she kept it hidden out of fear.
What impact? I think it's been pointed out numerous times that the events would have still played out similar if Nina told them because of most of the unknown running around and the fact that them extracting it from her would probably be extremely dangerous to her own well-being.



Quote:
But Layfon did commit a crime, and was duly punished. His concern was he’s battle hungry maniac who wanted to use a katana again…..But so far he managed control his inner self.
I don't know where you got that from. I've never heard Layfon lamenting about becoming a battle hungry maniac in anyway. This inner self I don't think even exists. Layfon problem had more to do with his own inability to understand how others felt when he was discovered to be doing illegal things. He talked about how he felt they had always betrayed him but then he wonders if they didn't feel the same way. I think you way way off on your analyzing of Layfon. Like completely different galaxies.



Quote:
Made Leerin pray to Saya in order to further surpress the goat’s havoc. While for Savaris, I’m playing Layfon.
Like I said before not a remedy and it also doesn't change anything as Savaris and Layfon are going to play anyway right?
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Old 2009-06-20, 02:06   Link #159
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
You'll need to define what you mean by a "survival" motive. You seem to be trying to hide behind the vagueness of that term. To me it means that he would do anything illegal and immoral to ensure his own and things he cares about survival. We see him do this is with Gorneo but he was of course just acting to show that he's not like that anymore. We see him also almost doing it during the battle with the FM as it immoral to allow the city to be destroyed when you have to power to stop it or let a comrade be beaten because you feel like hiding your true strength.
Please allow me to repost what I meant then,

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
Not a remedy. The goat is still instead her right? The praying only temporarily suppressed the goat it didn't stop it from continuing to go wild did it now? Suppression does not equal cure which is what a remedy is.
Remedy as for the whole situation, she would’ve kept in check in ep 20 until Leerin arrives to finally suppress them, possibly preventing her for going berserk, and for the sake of safety for her squad, but the current situation proves otherwise. I apologize if the term ‘remedy’ for you mean a total cure for Nina from a medical perspective where she’s free and cured from the Haikizoku’s influence, because that’s not what I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
What impact? I think it's been pointed out numerous times that the events would have still played out similar if Nina told them because of most of the unknown running around and the fact that them extracting it from her would probably be extremely dangerous to her own well-being.
Impact, as I posted prior,

Quote:
She went berserk, risking her squad a as target for the cannon, finally being subdued by a crazy HB.
Which could’ve been prevented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
I don't know where you got that from. I've never heard Layfon lamenting about becoming a battle hungry maniac in anyway. This inner self I don't think even exists. Layfon problem had more to do with his own inability to understand how others felt when he was discovered to be doing illegal things. He talked about how he felt they had always betrayed him but then he wonders if they didn't feel the same way. I think you way way off on your analyzing of Layfon. Like completely different galaxies.
In Ayako’s sub, around minute 17, its implied Layfon lamenting the fact he the overflowed feelings of wanting to use the katana again for the purpose of battle in an analogical way with his past crimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
Like I said before not a remedy and it also doesn't change anything as Savaris and Layfon are going to play anyway right?
With Layfon protecting her all the time if only she had said them. Layfon vs Savaris may be inevitable, but the risk of a abducted teammate situation could’ve been avoided.
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Old 2009-06-20, 03:31   Link #160
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Please allow me to repost what I meant then,

Spoiler:
K. Basically I don't see your point. We're in agreement that his philosophy in Grendan was messed up and thankfully he grew and change it. This doesn't really change the fact no one has a problem with his "current" philosophy as "willing to do illegal/immoral things" and not is a significant change to a philosophy.

Also your argument for this was that he had no screw-ups but here you admit that Nina keeps him in check. So doesn't that mean you understand that if she didn't then he could possibly screw up? I think then you'd agree that she was wise to be concerned and take action.



Quote:
Remedy as for the whole situation, she would’ve kept in check in ep 20 until Leerin arrives to finally suppress them, possibly preventing her for going berserk, and for the sake of safety for her squad, but the current situation proves otherwise. I apologize if the term ‘remedy’ for you mean a total cure for Nina from a medical perspective where she’s free and cured from the Haikizoku’s influence, because that’s not what I meant.
I don't even believe she knows Leerin can do anything of the sort as she was in extreme pain at the time and then immediately after she is teleported. Also like I said she has no idea Leerin is even going to Zuellni. Temporary quick fixes aren't going to change the situation much either. Either way this is far from Nina fault.

Quote:
Impact, as I posted prior,
Like I posted prior Nina hiding what happened had little if any impact on the current situation. All you've done is point out the current situation and then immediately put blame on Nina even when she had no way to stop/prevent these events.



Quote:
Which could’ve been prevented.
Possibly. It might have but then again are you saying that if she'd told them then the goat wouldn't still have taken over her? Basically if that had happen, before they started dissecting her, then the chances are she'd still be able to overpower everyone but Layfon and continue to the fight the FM. You actually finally make a valid point but I still don't think it enough for me to believe that her actions are main cause or greatly contribute to this conflict which honestly it does not. Her not going out there would have only made Savaris have to mow down a bunch of no names to get to her.



Quote:
In Ayako’s sub, around minute 17, its implied Layfon lamenting the fact he the overflowed feelings of wanting to use the katana again for the purpose of battle in an analogical way with his past crimes.
Layfon says that he punished himself by not allowing himself to use a Katana because of his crimes but in the last battle he felt the urge to once again pick up the Katana. It in no way implies that he felt that he was becoming battle crazed. That's just nonsense.


Quote:
With Layfon protecting her all the time if only she had said them. Layfon vs Savaris may be inevitable, but the risk of a abducted teammate situation could’ve been avoided.
Unless you've figured out a way to extract the goat that I'm not aware of then I don't see how it's avoidable. Unless you're implying that Nina becoming like Dinn would be a more beneficial situation? Savaris was watching and waiting for an opening and no one knew he was there or what he was up to so I think he'd be able to kidnap her in most any situation.
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