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Old 2009-06-20, 04:51   Link #161
TrueKnight
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
K. Basically I don't see your point. We're in agreement that his philosophy in Grendan was messed up and thankfully he grew and change it. This doesn't really change the fact no one has a problem with his "current" philosophy as "willing to do illegal/immoral things" and not is a significant change to a philosophy.

Also your argument for this was that he had no screw-ups but here you admit that Nina keeps him in check. So doesn't that mean you understand that if she didn't then he could possibly screw up? I think then you'd agree that she was wise to be concerned and take action.
I think I see your point, so please allow me to explain by replying your post per sentences,

Quote:
Also your argument for this was that he had no screw-ups
Yes he had no screw ups, as proven from 1 – 10 with his ‘motives’ intact.

Quote:
but here you admit that Nina keeps him in check.
I believe Layfon won’t do stuffs that’ll harm Zuellni, but the 'possibility' (though imo relatively small) he’d be guarding Zuellni illegally is still there. She’s there to serve as both security and insurance.

Quote:
So doesn't that mean you understand that if she didn't then he could possibly screw up? I think then you'd agree that she was wise to be concerned and take action.
Continuing the above the possibility/chance is there but by no means is certain or absolute, more like 30-40% at the highest. With Nina involved it can be lowered to 20-30%. The remaining risk is still there but the lower, safer, the better.

I would want her to take action, but not by closed-mindedly rejected his views, not considering his deeds, and finally said they couldn’t be in the same team because their way of thinking was different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
I don't even believe she knows Leerin can do anything of the sort as she was in extreme pain at the time and then immediately after she is teleported. Also like I said she has no idea Leerin is even going to Zuellni. Temporary quick fixes aren't going to change the situation much either. Either way this is far from Nina fault.
She didn’t know about Leerin’s powers. But as I stated, if she was to expose her secret, she would’ve kept in check by her squad or the authorities. When Layfon and Leerin finally met then something could’ve been done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
Layfon says that he punished himself by not allowing himself to use a Katana because of his crimes but in the last battle he felt the urge to once again pick up the Katana. It in no way implies that he felt that he was becoming battle crazed. That's just nonsense.
The feeling of wanting to use a katana overflowed him in battle, possibly because it’s supported by his Psyharden ways which main discipline is a katana, bound to go travelling as the queen as said while hunting FMs in the process. But after re-watching them I agree it’s not at the point of battle crazed but rather longing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick
Like I posted prior Nina hiding what happened had little if any impact on the current situation. All you've done is point out the current situation and then immediately put blame on Nina even when she had no way to stop/prevent these events.

Possibly. It might have but then again are you saying that if she'd told them then the goat wouldn't still have taken over her? Basically if that had happen, before they started dissecting her, then the chances are she'd still be able to overpower everyone but Layfon and continue to the fight the FM. You actually finally make a valid point but I still don't think it enough for me to believe that her actions are main cause or greatly contribute to this conflict which honestly it does not. Her not going out there would have only made Savaris have to mow down a bunch of no names to get to her.

Unless you've figured out a way to extract the goat that I'm not aware of then I don't see how it's avoidable. Unless you're implying that Nina becoming like Dinn would be a more beneficial situation? Savaris was watching and waiting for an opening and no one knew he was there or what he was up to so I think he'd be able to kidnap her in most any situation.
So far we’ve shown no cure on how Haikizoku could be extracted without damaging the host’s brain, but we do know how to suppress them, which is Leerin. And with the knowledge that Grendan is after the goat, Layfon is there to protect her.
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Old 2009-06-20, 06:35   Link #162
Ultramarinus
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Rick elaborated on pretty much everything but I'll still reply to your earlier message.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Explain ‘screw ups’. I’ll resort to my arguments I’ve stated prior pages ago,

And I still stand on such previous argument.
Screw-up as in getting involved in the same kind of stuff or even some other worse unlawful activity. He clearly states that he doesn't regret his past actions which is pretty much saying "I'll do it again whenever I feel like". Imagine someone with a criminal record talking to you like that. That way of talking against a superior is clearly asking for trouble. And he wasn't surprised one bit to see Nina getting upset about it and acknowledges how his past friends in Grendan were repulsed and pushed him away too. So he's well aware what he's getting himself into by talking like that. It wasn't just Nina, everyone who knows his past condemns him and stays away. Sole exception is Leerin.
Quote:
Remedies were there but the ‘momentum’ was lost. Because of period of moment starting from Felli’s event up to Leerin’s arrival was not used. Instead she kept them for herself.
You stated that "we know praying suppresses it" in your response to Rick. What I have been asking for several times that you keep ignoring: Does Leerin know she can suppress it? Does anyone else in Nina's vicinity or Nina know it? The answer is no. Not to mention that Leerin will spend all her life praying for Nina and Layfon will keep protecting her from a dozen HB's, Ignasis (oh yes they haven't forgot about her, already attacked in Myath so they wouldn't stop now) and Czellni. Your supposed remedy is doomed to fail sooner or later, even if Leerin had a clue.
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And once again I ask you. What are the facts already happened? Nina screwed up. She brought trouble. But were there remedies, yes.
The facts are that everything would play out the same and all of your suggestions are based on assumptions and speculations, which none of them can be proven based on what we see. Anime characters aren't omnipotent like the viewer and if they haven't seen or learned something by themselves, they cannot know what we know.
Quote:
Leerin for the goat, Layfon for Savaris. Ignasis so far is for Dixerio and the other HBs. It’s there. As could’ve been if not for her insistence on bearing all the scret.
Ignasis already is after Nina, as I've told above. It's a matter of time, potentially hours. It's not like queen will give up once Savaris is beaten. The president also wants the goat out so Layfon will have to beat up whole of Czellni as well.
Quote:
Who saved Nina I wonder? Who saved Zuellni? Not Nina. It was Layfon and Felli.
Who made them do that? Nina. They didn't give a damn about the city. You keep telling it was the trio, but Layfon was having a flashback to show his replenished attention towards his friends after Nina talked sense into him.
Quote:
If you want facts, what already happened, then I’ll repost my previous thought once again,

She brought trouble for her squad and unfit to be a leader, forcing her views onto others, she's not strong, but Layfon is, which she later admitted and apologized.

You argue nothing could be done about it, well I’ve stated the possible remedies.
Your made-up 'facts' again, I was referring to those.

- She didn't go berserk, it was the goat. It controls the person once he's done that.
- As such, she didn't risk anyone with the cannon. It was not her choice.
- She had already passed out when Savaris attacked.

She forced her views onto nobody, she just didn't want to have an underling that stood against her principles, which was her just right as a superior. We're all aware that everyone's weak compared to Layfon (maybe save for the queen) so what's the deal?
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Old 2009-06-20, 07:33   Link #163
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Screw-up as in getting involved in the same kind of stuff or even some other worse unlawful activity. He clearly states that he doesn't regret his past actions which is pretty much saying "I'll do it again whenever I feel like". Imagine someone with a criminal record talking to you like that. That way of talking against a superior is clearly asking for trouble. And he wasn't surprised one bit to see Nina getting upset about it and acknowledges how his past friends in Grendan were repulsed and pushed him away too. So he's well aware what he's getting himself into by talking like that. It wasn't just Nina, everyone who knows his past condemns him and stays away. Sole exception is Leerin.
My stance is what I've posted regarding his positive feats in Zuellni along with what I've posted prior above.

About his crimes, In Grendan, everyone knew and shunned him and he has been punished. In Zuellni he's an irreplacable asset, Kallian knew he was to valuable to replace. He'd rather dump Nina than Layfon. That, combined with all his deeds. Where she pales in comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
You stated that "we know praying suppresses it" in your response to Rick. What I have been asking for several times that you keep ignoring: Does Leerin know she can suppress it? Does anyone else in Nina's vicinity or Nina know it? The answer is no. Not to mention that Leerin will spend all her life praying for Nina and Layfon will keep protecting her from a dozen HB's, Ignasis (oh yes they haven't forgot about her, already attacked in Myath so they wouldn't stop now) and Czellni. Your supposed remedy is doomed to fail sooner or later, even if Leerin had a clue.
Yes Leerin knows she can surpress it as proven with ep 19. They wihin the vicinity didn't know because it was her who kept it as a secret at the first place.

Dozen HBs? They'd be too busy fending off Ignasis' armies and the FM. So far Savaris' the only one appointed to retreive the goat which may be held off by Layfon. The threat may be deterred.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
The facts are that everything would play out the same and all of your suggestions are based on assumptions and speculations, which none of them can be proven based on what we see. Anime characters aren't omnipotent like the viewer and if they haven't seen or learned something by themselves, they cannot know what we know.
All are visible and could be implemented based on what the prevous events had foretold us. With the primary cards are Layfon and Leerin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Ignasis already is after Nina, as I've told above. It's a matter of time, potentially hours. It's not like queen will give up once Savaris is beaten. The president also wants the goat out so Layfon will have to beat up whole of Czellni as well.
No, the possible preventions were there. About the president he wanted to do that because Nina already became a goat aka possessed. Which again, could've been prevented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Who made them do that? Nina. They didn't give a damn about the city. You keep telling it was the trio, but Layfon was having a flashback to show his replenished attention towards his friends after Nina talked sense into him.
It's the empty alley that mostly made him realized about the safety of the trio. Layfon and Felli contributed directly to the safety of Zuellni, while Nina was being nearly bug nutrition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Your made-up 'facts' again, I was referring to those.

- She didn't go berserk, it was the goat. It controls the person once he's done that.
- As such, she didn't risk anyone with the cannon. It was not her choice.
- She had already passed out when Savaris attacked.

She forced her views onto nobody, she just didn't want to have an underling that stood against her principles, which was her just right as a superior. We're all aware that everyone's weak compared to Layfon (maybe save for the queen) so what's the deal?
The facts are:

- she knew she couldnt control it, the Haikizoku finally possesed her, naturally her team got worried and finally chased her with the risk being shot at. Finally getting beaten up by an HB in the process.

These events equals to trouble. Caused by her own insistence in hiding the secret.

Forced her views against nobody because she didn't her underling go against her principle as a superior? What the heck is that? you can have any kind of principle as long you keep doing your duty as a good soldier. That's what Layfon did, combined with his feats back then with his role as an irreplaceable military asset.

If Nina's somebody's subordinate and then her captain said that he didn't like her idealistic principles, so she must changed them, it would sound
ridiculous.
Phew.
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Old 2009-06-20, 08:28   Link #164
Ultramarinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
My stance is what I've posted regarding his positive feats in Zuellni along with what I've posted prior above.

About his crimes, In Grendan, everyone knew and shunned him and he has been punished. In Zuellni he's an irreplacable asset, Kallian knew he was to valuable to replace. He'd rather dump Nina than Layfon. That, combined with all his deeds. Where she pales in comparison.
You're once again ignoring the fact that punishment isn't equal to rehabilitation. Layfon states that he hasn't learned his lesson. Nina is rather bothered with what he may do from now on since he tells her that his ideas haven't changed since back then. If he had told her that he repented, she wouldn't want to part ways. He was already suspicious due to earlier deceptions, his deeds warranted nothing.

And once again you're ignoring another fact: Layfon would be transferred to another platoon, Nina just didn't want to work in the same platoon. I don't understand how you can blatantly insist on something's not even implied.
Quote:
Yes Leerin knows she can surpress it as proven with ep 19. They wihin the vicinity didn't know because it was her who kept it as a secret at the first place.

Dozen HBs? They'd be too busy fending off Ignasis' armies and the FM. So far Savaris' the only one appointed to retreive the goat which may be held off by Layfon. The threat may be deterred.
No, she has no idea about what the goat is, what the risks are and what to do with it. Otherwise she'd talk to Nina about it right away. Instead she had irrelevant small-talk. Even after Layfon went after Nina, Leerin does neither talk nor think about the goat. She's clueless.
Quote:
All are visible and could be implemented based on what the prevous events had foretold us. With the primary cards are Layfon and Leerin.
All you offer are your assumptions and speculations, which were proven to be wrong in the last two eps as I have been explaining in detail.
Quote:
No, the possible preventions were there. About the president he wanted to do that because Nina already became a goat aka possessed. Which again, could've been prevented.
The president wants the goat out of her in any case, because it's intervening with Czellni's movement. That's why Czellni's stuck there with Grendan. Changing to mask mode has nothing to do with it.
Quote:
It's the empty alley that mostly made him realized about the safety of the trio. Layfon and Felli contributed directly to the safety of Zuellni, while Nina was being nearly bug nutrition.
Oh my, running in circles due to you ignoring the order of things again. Layfon and Felli wanted to run away. Nina awakens Layfon from his slumber, who in turn forces Felli to cooperate. If it wasn't for Nina, Layfon was running to a hole to crawl in.
Quote:
The facts are:

- she knew she couldnt control it, the Haikizoku finally possesed her, naturally her team got worried and finally chased her with the risk being shot at. Finally getting beaten up by an HB in the process.

These events equals to trouble. Caused by her own insistence in hiding the secret.

Forced her views against nobody because she didn't her underling go against her principle as a superior? What the heck is that? you can have any kind of principle as long you keep doing your duty as a good soldier. That's what Layfon did, combined with his feats back then with his role as an irreplaceable military asset.

If Nina's somebody's subordinate and then her captain said that he didn't like her idealistic principles, so she must changed them, it would sound
ridiculous.
Phew.
So an earthquake can occur and you'll blame it on Nina, right? Seriously, there's a limit to reaching conclusions out of nowhere.

Leerin is clueless about haikizoku's nature and what to do with it. Layfon can't protect her against 99% of the people and monsters we saw in the anime. The troubles cannot be avoided.

No, you cannot earn dirty money relying on your title and wound a witness. Such a person would never be given any position in any military, ever. Still, in Regios setting this particular guy is god-like and that's why the president makes an exception. Still, if the journalist girl made his past a newspaper story, things could get very sour for him. It's not just Nina's principles, it's the living creed of all military artists.
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Old 2009-06-20, 09:17   Link #165
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
You're once again ignoring the fact that punishment isn't equal to rehabilitation. Layfon states that he hasn't learned his lesson. Nina is rather bothered with what he may do from now on since he tells her that his ideas haven't changed since back then. If he had told her that he repented, she wouldn't want to part ways. He was already suspicious due to earlier deceptions, his deeds warranted nothing.

And once again you're ignoring another fact: Layfon would be transferred to another platoon, Nina just didn't want to work in the same platoon. I don't understand how you can blatantly insist on something's not even implied.
Sorry but you also ignored the fact (which I've posted earlier) that even with his motives he managed not to stray off.You say his deeds warranted him nothing. If it weren't for him she and Zuellni would've been bug food. Morever he's been a good soldier back then while in Zuellni, not violating any orders.

Yes she could removed him out from the squad, which unfortunately for
Layfon, she didn't. And Nina can return on being ordinary again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
No, she has no idea about what the goat is, what the risks are and what to do with it. Otherwise she'd talk to Nina about it right away. Instead she had irrelevant small-talk. Even after Layfon went after Nina, Leerin does neither talk nor think about the goat. She's clueless.
She didn't know because Nina kept quite about it, so her squad including Layfon wouldn't know, which could be passed onto her should Nina told them from the start. But she didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
All you offer are your assumptions and speculations, which were proven to be wrong in the last two eps as I have been explaining in detail.
I'm sorry but I have to say the same to you. You also have been ignoring the possibilities that might occured as I've posted earlier. Proven wrong in the last 2 eps? Leerin didn't know because she thought everything so far was under control. Only to find the opposite during her discussion with Layfon. But by then Nina had went missing.

Besides if not Leerin, Nina would've had Layfon who's capable on subduing the goat singlehandedly as shown in ep 23. More reason why she should've told them sooner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
The president wants the goat out of her in any case, because it's intervening with Czellni's movement. That's why Czellni's stuck there with Grendan. Changing to mask mode has nothing to do with it.
They have Leerin, and finally Layfon, capable to subjugate the goat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Oh my, running in circles due to you ignoring the order of things again. Layfon and Felli wanted to run away. Nina awakens Layfon from his slumber, who in turn forces Felli to cooperate. If it wasn't for Nina, Layfon was running to a hole to crawl in.
Apogize if you feel that way. I was merely stating what were the events in ep 5. I already said that Nina also contributed to the event, but it wasmostly because Layfon's remembering the trio.

And in terms of usefullness, it was Layfon and Felli who did the most part. Nina was in the back in awe because she couldn't do a thing within her
powers but to rely on Layfon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
So an earthquake can occur and you'll blame it on Nina, right? Seriously, there's a limit to reaching conclusions out of nowhere.

Leerin is clueless about haikizoku's nature and what to do with it. Layfon can't protect her against 99% of the people and monsters we saw in the anime. The troubles cannot be avoided.

No, you cannot earn dirty money relying on your title and wound a witness. Such a person would never be given any position in any military, ever. Still, in Regios setting this particular guy is god-like and that's why the president makes an exception. Still, if the journalist girl made his past a newspaper story, things could get very sour for him. It's not just Nina's principles, it's the living creed of all military artists.
Earthquake? Why would I blame Nina out of nowhere without coherent basis?I blame her because the situation could've been avoided with the possibilites I stated. Such situation would've been prevented with Leerin and Layfon's involvement don't you think?

Yes this is Regios, a cruel and polluted world where people lived out of fear being consumed by beasts outside their city premises. Exactly why people like Layfon is required. In Zuellni he had been both a good soldier and citizen, saving people be them civil or millitary. If only Nina had realized all his deeds in Zuellni. Finally the living creed of each military artists differs from eachother, such as the Psyhardens, Salinvan Mercenaries and the Heaven Blades.
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Old 2009-06-20, 10:46   Link #166
Ultramarinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Sorry but you also ignored the fact (which I've posted earlier) that even with his motives he managed not to stray off.You say his deeds warranted him nothing. If it weren't for him she and Zuellni would've been bug food. Morever he's been a good soldier back then while in Zuellni, not violating any orders.

Yes she could removed him out from the squad, which unfortunately for
Layfon, she didn't. And Nina can return on being ordinary again.
Warranted him nothing because he's a mysterious character whose past is unknown, already deceived her squad and captain and bang! His past is revealed and it's scarred by a serious criminal offense that nearly resulted in capital punishment. Moreover, he insists that he did nothing wrong. For all they can know at that point, he could have been trying to gain their trust to do the same thing here like he did before.

Yeah, just removing from squad, not city. I hope we reached an understanding there.
Quote:
She didn't know because Nina kept quite about it, so her squad including Layfon wouldn't know, which could be passed onto her should Nina told them from the start. But she didn't.
She already knew it as she witnessed it herself! How else do you think she could tell Layfon?
Quote:
I'm sorry but I have to say the same to you. You also have been ignoring the possibilities that might occured as I've posted earlier. Proven wrong in the last 2 eps? Leerin didn't know because she thought everything so far was under control. Only to find the opposite during her discussion with Layfon. But by then Nina had went missing.
I've been explaining in detail as to why your assumptions and speculations regarding the dealing with haikizoku aren't correct. If Leerin had the slightest idea about what a haikizoku is, she'd already know that it cannot be kept in control by oneself and would offer help right away when she saw Nina. This alone proves that her knowledge about it is non-existent..
Quote:
Besides if not Leerin, Nina would've had Layfon who's capable on subduing the goat singlehandedly as shown in ep 23. More reason why she should've told them sooner.
Another speculation that assumes anime characters can see into the future and read minds. Layfon himself didn't know what to do until that exact moment, he was thinking: "how should I deal with it?" just seconds before.
Quote:
They have Leerin, and finally Layfon, capable to subjugate the goat.
Both clueless, both did it in the heat of the moment. Neither are shown or told to be effective indefinitely.
Quote:
Apogize if you feel that way. I was merely stating what were the events in ep 5. I already said that Nina also contributed to the event, but it wasmostly because Layfon's remembering the trio.

And in terms of usefullness, it was Layfon and Felli who did the most part. Nina was in the back in awe because she couldn't do a thing within her
powers but to rely on Layfon.
Sorry but you were totally omitting the part you had to do support your argument there. Sure the engine moves the car, but it can do nothing without a starter motor. It's not that I'm downplaying Layfon's part (someone else could do Felli's part, the mother wasn't far away) but you're downplaying Nina totally there. Not to mention that she led the artists until that point to delay the monsters and fought herself to death while the unit routed. Something that we never saw anyone do except Layfon.
Quote:
Earthquake? Why would I blame Nina out of nowhere without coherent basis?I blame her because the situation could've been avoided with the possibilites I stated. Such situation would've been prevented with Leerin and Layfon's involvement don't you think?
That's about the same with what you've doing in these last pages, going as far as to blame her for the squad being threatened by the cannon. Simple logic demands that nobody is to blame for something like that, an event unpreventable by anyone. If anything, it would be the president who ordered them to go without any backup or Savaris who kidnapped her. I simply don't understand your weird reasoning.

And no, it wouldn't be prevented by them as I explained thoroughly and gave the reasons why. I also told about the factions who wanted to extract the goat, who are EVERYONE except platoon 17.
Quote:
Yes this is Regios, a cruel and polluted world where people lived out of fear being consumed by beasts outside their city premises. Exactly why people like Layfon is required. In Zuellni he had been both a good soldier and citizen, saving people be them civil or millitary. If only Nina had realized all his deeds in Zuellni. Finally the living creed of each military artists differs from eachother, such as the Psyhardens, Salinvan Mercenaries and the Heaven Blades.
Required and utilized, which Nina does throughout the series as the president foresaw at the start. If only Layfon didn't cover up the truth behind his motivation back then, so that nobody would be deceived into believing he was a villain. And finally the living creed of military artists doesn't differ at all, which is why Layfon is universally condemned for his actions in Grendan, Czellni and by the Salinvan mercenaries except two people who are blind with his love.
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Old 2009-06-20, 11:19   Link #167
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Warranted him nothing because he's a mysterious character whose past is unknown, already deceived her squad and captain and bang! His past is revealed and it's scarred by a serious criminal offense that nearly resulted in capital punishment. Moreover, he insists that he did nothing wrong. For all they can know at that point, he could have been trying to gain their trust to do the same thing here like he did before.
Oh, but he had his feats where if it weren't for him Nina or Zuellni wouldn't have been standing or even alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
She already knew it as she witnessed it herself! How else do you think she could tell Layfon?
Because Nina kept quiet so she thought everything was under control? Until she realize them while talking with Layfon but then Nina already went missing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
I've been explaining in detail as to why your assumptions and speculations regarding the dealing with haikizoku aren't correct. If Leerin had the slightest idea about what a haikizoku is, she'd already know that it cannot be kept in control by oneself and would offer help right away when she saw Nina. This alone proves that her knowledge about it is non-existent.
As I’ve explained with you with the possibilities above where Nina had kept it hidden. Should she exposed it in ep 20, the outcome would’ve been different with Leerin and Layfon being there as a deterrent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Another speculation that assumes anime characters can see into the future and read minds. Layfon himself didn't know what to do until that exact moment, he was thinking: "how should I deal with it?" just seconds before.
Both of them didn’t know about them but this further reinforce by arguments that the necessary preventive measures were there. With Leerin added with Layfon. Should she already told them and while she’s in the squad custody the goat suddenly activates, Layfon would’ve probably done the same act like what he’s capable in episode 23, or with Leerin suppressant measures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Both clueless, both did it in the heat of the moment. Neither are shown or told to be effective indefinitely.
Clueless, but could’ve been effective should the goat activates under her platoon’s surveillance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Sorry but you were totally omitting the part you had to do support your argument there. Sure the engine moves the car, but it can do nothing without a starter motor. It's not that I'm downplaying Layfon's part (someone else could do Felli's part, the mother wasn't far away) but you're downplaying Nina totally there. Not to mention that she led the artists until that point to delay the monsters and fought herself to death while the unit routed. Something that we never saw anyone do except Layfon.
The starter was the lonely alley where Layfon had realized the what he wanted to protect which was the trio as shown in ep 5. Someone else’s couldn’t’ done Felli’s part due to the part she’s the only one capable on detecting targets miles away even surrounded by obstacles, that and with exceptional talent she managed to locate them quickly than your average nen-I user.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
That's about the same with what you've doing in these last pages, going as far as to blame her for the squad being threatened by the cannon. Simple logic demands that nobody is to blame for something like that, an event unpreventable by anyone. If anything, it would be the president who ordered them to go without any backup or Savaris who kidnapped her. I simply don't understand your weird reasoning.

And no, it wouldn't be prevented by them as I explained thoroughly and gave the reasons why. I also told about the factions who wanted to extract the goat, who are EVERYONE except platoon 17.
Please refer to my previous posts where it could’ve been prevented should Nina exposed her secret. The necessary preventive measures were already there. Clueless is one thing, but surely not useless and both Leerin and Layfon could be used as remedies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Required and utilized, which Nina does throughout the series as the president foresaw at the start. If only Layfon didn't cover up the truth behind his motivation back then, so that nobody would be deceived into believing he was a villain. And finally the living creed of military artists doesn't differ at all, which is why Layfon is universally condemned for his actions in Grendan, Czellni and by the Salinvan mercenaries except two people who are blind with his love.
Layfon never deceived, he just answered only when questioned and he had every right to held on his principle, that combined with his feats and duties I’ve posted prior. And. The living creed of military artist differs such as the Salinvans who were only willing to take out half of the bugs back in episode 17, while Layfon took out the remaining half. Back then the Salinvans military artists works for money and not for the safety of Zuellni’s citizen.
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Old 2009-06-20, 11:45   Link #168
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Oh, but he had his feats where if it weren't for him Nina or Zuellni wouldn't have been standing or even alive.
Once more, that isn't enough by itself when the man himself speaks his mind.
Quote:
Because Nina kept quiet so she thought everything was under control? Until she realize them while talking with Layfon but then Nina already went missing?
Everything couldn't be under control, she would have known that if she had the knowledge you assume she had.
Quote:
As I’ve explained with you with the possibilities above where Nina had kept it hidden. Should she exposed it in ep 20, the outcome would’ve been different with Leerin and Layfon being there as a deterrent.

Both of them didn’t know about them but this further reinforce by arguments that the necessary preventive measures were there. With Leerin added with Layfon. Should she already told them and while she’s in the squad custody the goat suddenly activates, Layfon would’ve probably done the same act like what he’s capable in episode 23, or with Leerin suppressant measures.

Clueless, but could’ve been effective should the goat activates under her platoon’s surveillance.
And I'm telling you that Leerin is TOTALLY CLUELESS about the whole issue. She just saw a goat and doesn't even know what it is! She doesn't know what it can do, she doesn't know how to control, she doesn't know anything. Layfon again doesn't know what to do about it. They could do NOTHING, they offer to do nothing about it. And the most important part is that, Nina doesn't know if anyone can do anything about it without getting her into veggie state.

Add another fact to this: President would still order it to get removed so they'd have to either beat whole city into submission or totally destroy it because Czellni's fairy also resides within Nina now. They cannot even leave the city because that would spell its doom.

Quote:
The starter was the lonely alley where Layfon had realized the what he wanted to protect which was the trio as shown in ep 5. Someone else’s couldn’t’ done Felli’s part due to the part she’s the only one capable on detecting targets miles away even surrounded by obstacles, that and with exceptional talent she managed to locate them quickly than your average nen-I user.
The starter is definitely Nina but by now I understand that you'll never come to accept it no matter what.
Quote:
Please refer to my previous posts where it could’ve been prevented should Nina exposed her secret. The necessary preventive measures were already there. Clueless is one thing, but surely not useless and both Leerin and Layfon could be used as remedies.
I already commented about them multiple times and pointed out why the end situation wouldn't change. The only difference could have been a showdown in Czellni which resulted in its destruction or the extraction of haikizoku with unknown effects on Nina.
Quote:
Layfon never deceived, he just answered only when questioned and he had every right to held on his principle, that combined with his feats and duties I’ve posted prior. And. The living creed of military artist differs such as the Salinvans who were only willing to take out half of the bugs back in episode 17, while Layfon took out the remaining half. Back then the Salinvans military artists works for money and not for the safety of Zuellni’s citizen.
He did deceive, that's what you do when you only tell part of an event to lead someone into believing something. The living creed of military artists demands that they shouldn't take part in illegal activities for self-benefit and then clean up witnesses. That much is certain and is proven over and over throughout the series since everyone who knows about Layfon's past either exiled him, strongly condemned him or tried to kill him. Even his lovers didn't acknowledge that he was right. You should be able to accept such an obvious fact at the very least.
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Old 2009-06-20, 12:06   Link #169
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Once more, that isn't enough by itself when the man himself speaks his mind.
Ignoring all his past positive feats in Zuellni I presume? That had eventually saved her and all of Zuellni’s citizens? all that she wanted to protect all the long?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Everything couldn't be under control, she would have known that if she had the knowledge you assume she had.
She’s not an overseer as you speak, but her hiding the secret when her squad had every right to know after being missing for so long and had them worried to death seems didn’t go well into her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraminus
And I'm telling you that Leerin is TOTALLY CLUELESS about the whole issue. She just saw a goat and doesn't even know what it is! She doesn't know what it can do, she doesn't know how to control, she doesn't know anything. Layfon again doesn't know what to do about it. They could do NOTHING, they offer to do nothing about it. And the most important part is that, Nina doesn't know if anyone can do anything about it without getting her into veggie state.

Add another fact to this: President would still order it to get removed so they'd have to either beat whole city into submission or totally destroy it because Czellni's fairy also resides within Nina now. They cannot even leave the city because that would spell its doom.
Yes she knew as the bird had said. Pray to Saya. But it was kept in the dark because in ep 20 Nina refuses to expose them. Eventhough she didn’t know that Layfon or Leerin could’ve helped her, if only she exposed them sooner the squad including Layfon would’ve kept her in check. When the possession occurs, Layfon or Leerin could’ve been there to prevent it.

The president? No, because Zuellni is with her so they’re basically inside the city. It’s because Nina went haywire outside that the prez gave that order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utramarinus
The starter is definitely Nina but by now I understand that you'll never come to accept it no matter what.
Nina had some role but the starter is the trio and the flying paper where some reminiscence of Leerin’s letter (primary reason in the novel).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
I already commented about them multiple times and pointed out why the end situation wouldn't change. The only difference could have been a showdown in Czellni which resulted in its destruction or the extraction of haikizoku with unknown effects on Nina.
As I’ve commented multiple times also that even though Nina didn’t know about, if she had told them her secrets back in episode 20, the squad would’ve realized it and helped her sooner. Remedies like Leerin or Layfon had already available, though at the time not test proven but it’s worth the try rather than hiding it. Instead she went missing and look what happen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
He did deceive, that's what you do when you only tell part of an event to lead someone into believing something. The living creed of military artists demands that they shouldn't take part in illegal activities for self-benefit and then clean up witnesses. That much is certain and is proven over and over throughout the series since everyone who knows about Layfon's past either exiled him, strongly condemned him or tried to kill him. Even his lovers didn't acknowledge that he was right. You should be able to accept such an obvious fact at the very least.
Oh, you mean like, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and being duly punished in Grendan, confronting Nina and she shunned him just because his principle differs from her, when all she did all those time was actually relying on him and that she’s nothing if it weren’t for him? And as for military artist not participating in illegal activities, then what about the Salinvans supporting the ‘overkill’ drugs cartel in ep 12 and 13? Like I said, their goals differs. Please check the previous episodes once again.
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Old 2009-06-20, 12:36   Link #170
Ultramarinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Ignoring all his past positive feats in Zuellni I presume? That had eventually saved her and all of Zuellni’s citizens? all that she wanted to protect all the long?
She didn't ignore, (that's why she hesitates and thinks about it during ep 9-10) it just wasn't enough by itself against other factors like his lies in the past, his own word and his own past.
Quote:
She’s not an overseer as you speak, but her hiding the secret when her squad had every right to know after being missing for so long and had them worried to death seems didn’t go well into her.
I was talking about Leerin's knowledge about 'Haikizoku 101' there, which amounts to none.
Quote:
Yes she knew as the bird had said. Pray to Saya. But it was kept in the dark because in ep 20 Nina refuses to expose them. Eventhough she didn’t know that Layfon or Leerin could’ve helped her, if only she exposed them sooner the squad including Layfon would’ve kept her in check. When the possession occurs, Layfon or Leerin could’ve been there to prevent it.

The president? No, because Zuellni is with her so they’re basically inside the city. It’s because Nina went haywire outside that the prez gave that order.
No, Nina didn't know as she was under extreme duress by the goat at the time. What you're saying is like a patient during an operation knowing what the surgeons do. Nina doesn't know if anyone can help her and that's what matters. Because she knows that EVERYONE ELSE is hunting it. That's enough justification to make a living, breathing human being into keeping it a secret.

The president wants the goat out because it's intervening with the city's movement already before the mask appeared, that's why they're sitting ducks in front of Grendan. Watch ep 23 again please.
Quote:
As I’ve commented multiple times also that even though Nina didn’t know about, if she had told them her secrets back in episode 20, the squad would’ve realized it and helped her sooner. Remedies like Leerin or Layfon had already available, though at the time not test proven but it’s worth the try rather than hiding it. Instead she went missing and look what happen
As I said above and before, Nina doesn't know that anyone can help her. That ultimately is enough by itself to make her keep a secret, because she'll be threatened by three different factions if they knew about it, including her home city. And those remedies you propose aren't there, they're merely band-aids that were applied unconsciously on a whim.

By the same logic, Layfon should have let the goat possess him back then and none of this would have happened. Your argument relies on too many ifs with no certified methods proven.
Quote:
Oh, you mean like, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and being duly punished in Grendan, confronting Nina and she shunned him just because his principle differs from her, when all she did all those time was actually relying on him and that she’s nothing if it weren’t for him? And as for military artist not participating in illegal activities, then what about the Salinvans supporting the ‘overkill’ drugs cartel in ep 12 and 13? Like I said, their goals differs. Please check the previous episodes once again.
Let's see:

- The orphans he fed spit on his face.
- The city he protected booed him.
- The student of the man he wounded wants to kill him.
- His queen exiled him.
- President blackmails him.
- Haia wants to kill him.

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW OF HIS MISDEEDS SHUNS/CONDEMNS/WANTS TO KILL HIM, IT IS NOT ONLY NINA'S PRINCIPLES. Please watch the whole series again if you cannot remember such a topic that was presented throughout nearly every second episode.
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Old 2009-06-20, 13:12   Link #171
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
She didn't ignore, (that's why she hesitates and thinks about it during ep 9-10) it just wasn't enough by itself against other factors like his lies in the past, his own word and his own past.
His ‘lies’ based on principle and his right to have them? against his admirable feats while he’s in Zuellni, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and already being duly punished in Grendan.

I consider that to be uneven. Layfon is right one in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
I was talking about Leerin's knowledge about 'Haikizoku 101' there, which amounts to none.
She didn’t knew she about the goat, but she knew she had problems and she had with her the necessary preventive measures to deal with it, but wouldn’t know because Nina kept it a secret from her squad aka Layfon. So Leerin wouldn’t know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
No, Nina didn't know as she was under extreme duress by the goat at the time. What you're saying is like a patient during an operation knowing what the surgeons do. Nina doesn't know if anyone can help her and that's what matters. Because she knows that EVERYONE ELSE is hunting it. That's enough justification to make a living, breathing human being into keeping it a secret.

The president wants the goat out because it's intervening with the city's movement already before the mask appeared, that's why they're sitting ducks in front of Grendan. Watch ep 23 again please.
She was in extreme duress and was sick, therefore she should’ve known she’s uncapable to participate or to lead and should let others replaced her for the time being. Everyone else is hunting the Haikizoku but she has Layfon with her and later Leerin. Combined all that and you have a person unfit to be a leader.

Yes your right, but basically Zuellni stopped moving because the goat activates. Which again could’ve been prevented should she told this issue earlier with Layfon and Leerin being there. Kallian? There's Felli and Layfon, he needed them and would've heed to their advices which is not to kill Nina.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
As I said above and before, Nina doesn't know that anyone can help her. That ultimately is enough by itself to make her keep a secret, because she'll be threatened by three different factions if they knew about it, including her home city. And those remedies you propose aren't there, they're merely band-aids that were applied unconsciously on a whim.

By the same logic, Layfon should have let the goat possess him back then and none of this would have happened. Your argument relies on too many ifs with no certified methods proven.
And hence she’s unfit to be a captain because she knew she had trouble within her but still insisting in carrying out her duty, resulting to trouble. Instead being kept in check or treated she roam around the premises. Again I’ve stated many times that even though everyone aside from Nina were clueless, but the possibility for it being prevented from being berserk were there. With Layfon and Leerin.

And the goat couldn’t possess Layfon because he’s could resist it. Nina should’ve realized this in ep 17 but she insisted on fighting the goat instead waiting for back up, ended up her being possessed. Though she’s trying Zuellni nevertheless she screwed up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
] Let's see:

- The orphans he fed spit on his face.
- The city he protected booed him.
- The student of the man he wounded wants to kill him.
- His queen exiled him.
- President blackmails him.
- Haia wants to kill him.

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW OF HIS MISDEEDS SHUNS/CONDEMNS/WANTS TO KILL HIM, IT IS NOT ONLY NINA'S PRINCIPLES. Please watch the whole series again if you cannot remember such a topic that was presented throughout nearly every second episode.
There are two events being questioned, Grendan events post-Grendan, that is Zuellni,

My previous posts,

Quote:
Unfortunately, as are you. You argued about ‘motives’, I argued about ‘facts’, ‘events that happened’.

Grendan events:

- He committed crime in Grendan and had been punished;
- Has a motive of survival;

Zuellni events

- Arrived at Zuellni, during this has his motive of survival;
- Beat squad 16, during this has his motive of survival;
- Saved the city in ep 5, during this has his motive of survival;
- Fighting the dragon in ep 7 saving the city again, during this has his motive of survival;
- Fighting Gorneo and co, during this has his motive of survival;
- Conducting surveillance to the Goat City; during this has his motive of survival;
- Confront Nina, his past exposed, stood by his ideals and during this has his motive of survival
- Confront Shante and Gorneo who probably intends to kill him, beat them off, but he spared them, during this has his motive of survival;
- Ep 12 – ep 15, during these periods he has his motive of survival;

He had his motives, but still, he didn’t commit any crimes at all. These are what you seems didn't take into account.

If we arguing about ‘motives’, then pretty much Nina’s recklessness and forcefulness should’ve been taken into account because of her nature to not thinking strategically as seen 2 years prior, in ep 2, 6, and 16. And she should’ve been strip out of her rank permanently because he’s unfit to be a leader, it could simply happen again in the future because of these events and based on ‘motives’ alone. Not because of facts.
Haia wants to kill him because Layfon’s in his way in obtaining the Haikizoku and taking lightly of the Psyharden way, the president blackmails him because that’s the only way he would’ve agreed in cooperating with him but by no means shunned him, instead giving him a class A tutorship. Please watch the whole ordeal once again from ep 1 to 14 for this matter. And I guess you agree about military artists differs from each other.
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Old 2009-06-20, 16:41   Link #172
Ultramarinus
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This has turned into one of those epic duels that lasts 3 days and 3 nights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
His ‘lies’ based on principle and his right to have them? against his admirable feats while he’s in Zuellni, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and already being duly punished in Grendan.

I consider that to be uneven. Layfon is right one in this case.
There's no right or wrong in the matter but Layfon's cover-up causes trouble, he should have told why he did that in clear detail. There would be no misunderstanding then. For that reason, if there's anyone to blame, it's Layfon for deceiving them all.
Quote:
She didn’t knew she about the goat, but she knew she had problems and she had with her the necessary preventive measures to deal with it, but wouldn’t know because Nina kept it a secret from her squad aka Layfon. So Leerin wouldn’t know.
Leerin doesn't know what it is so she doesn't know what to do with it. All she did back then was heeding to bird fairy's call. And even if Layfon or others knew about the secret, they wouldn't know what Leerin can do so it's eventually up to her to use initiative. But she wouldn't do that because she doesn't know what haikizoku is.
Quote:
She was in extreme duress and was sick, therefore she should’ve known she’s uncapable to participate or to lead and should let others replaced her for the time being. Everyone else is hunting the Haikizoku but she has Layfon with her and later Leerin. Combined all that and you have a person unfit to be a leader.
She was okay for the moment and she didn't know the extent of its influence. She couldn't abandon them with Myath on the doorstep and she would of course want to participate in the battle, she has been putting her all for that next city battle. She wouldn't miss it, I guess you should know why based on her past.
Quote:
Yes your right, but basically Zuellni stopped moving because the goat activates. Which again could’ve been prevented should she told this issue earlier with Layfon and Leerin being there. Kallian? There's Felli and Layfon, he needed them and would've heed to their advices which is not to kill Nina.
As I told before, goat already was altering their route and it would continue to do so. In ep 23, did you see Layfon or Felli going against the president when he said he wants to extract the goat? No. So your presumption is void.
Quote:
And hence she’s unfit to be a captain because she knew she had trouble within her but still insisting in carrying out her duty, resulting to trouble. Instead being kept in check or treated she roam around the premises. Again I’ve stated many times that even though everyone aside from Nina were clueless, but the possibility for it being prevented from being berserk were there. With Layfon and Leerin.
First of all, she couldn't give a break without letting out the reason. Second is that Myath battle is what she's been looking towards in these last years. She was alright up until ep 22 anyway. Did you ever see Leerin and Layfon talking or thinking about how to suppress it after their exchange at the hospital? No. That shows that they still have no idea what to do about it.

Quote:
And the goat couldn’t possess Layfon because he’s could resist it. Nina should’ve realized this in ep 17 but she insisted on fighting the goat instead waiting for back up, ended up her being possessed. Though she’s trying Zuellni nevertheless she screwed up.
Yeah but I just applied your logic, it could all have been prevented if Layfon sacrificed himself, like you expect Nina to sacrifice herself. We had talked about ep 17 before, she was alone and she had lost communication after falling down to the room. There wasn't really an option to pull out while Czellni laid beneath the goat's feet anyway (we also know how much she loves the fairy) and she took her chance, haikizoku had already begun to channel his power afterward.
Quote:
There are two events being questioned, Grendan events post-Grendan, that is Zuellni,

My previous posts,

Haia wants to kill him because Layfon’s in his way in obtaining the Haikizoku and taking lightly of the Psyharden way, the president blackmails him because that’s the only way he would’ve agreed in cooperating with him but by no means shunned him, instead giving him a class A tutorship. Please watch the whole ordeal once again from ep 1 to 14 for this matter. And I guess you agree about military artists differs from each other.
Taking lightly, what's that? That's what exactly Layfon does with those misdeeds as he loses the HB as a direct result. Losing such an honor for petty cash, smearing the school's reputation as well. The president can blackmail him, why? Because it would ruin his reputation to the ground and the city would be a living hell to him even if he could stay, as his misdeeds are against everything their military artists stand for. We also saw that during ep 19, when the president lectured a dumbfounded Layfon about their pride. Their stance on the issue could be anything on the spectrum of Nina to Gorneo. And I doubt many would be as lenient as Nina, recall Dinn and those other no-name captains with their snob attitude towards even Nina?

There's also the fact that it was only the queen's initiative that he was spared from the axe and we heard nothing good about him from any other HB users so far. So his misdeeds are universally against all military artists' creeds.
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Old 2009-06-20, 17:35   Link #173
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Trueknight: your statements origins mainly from your perspective and not from the characters'. That's the problem. We, people such a beings that can't perdict the future or read others' mind lesiurely...That's why we consider decisions as good ones if they're using our best knownledge and counting in the circumstances.
Examples:-Nina's coldness towards Layfon after she learned the truth:He stated it that way to be misunderstood. I bet the only the ones with distanced view, like Felli or the ones like Leerin, who knows Layfon well enough who's not misinterpreted that.
-Using Layfon: At least it bothers her...they can't do it otherwise so it's can't be helped. And the time when she "confessed" herself that she's only bothered about Layfons injury because of the interplatoon match just a way to decieve herself. She's, like Layfon has an extreme amount of self-hatred, and she similary like convince herself about her badness.
Actions may later proved to be wrong or worse than another decision but we can't help it. Your expectations about Nina are inhuman. And other thing actions are judged by not only the act and result, but by the intentions, state of mind and knownledge too. As I said formerly you often miss the other three or at least two.
Not to mention that no matter how good a person, everyone's selfish a little bit and that means they're acting selfish somethimes at the very least.Nina's rush towards Vanze was iselfish, hiding the truth about the Haikizokou was selfish too.But they're excusable a bit and they're nothing compared to her selfless actions.(Not to mention that both areless weighted if we think about it:A.) No matter what Vanze would've outsmarted and defeated them, B.) Not only Nina but everyone would be scared shitless after an experience like that and they would've shut their mouths about it...be it Felli, Layfon, Sharnid, Gorneo, Vanze, Karian etc...and they have much less problem with that)

I hope my post doesn't look arrogant or pompous. I didn't want to write it that way if that's the case.
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Old 2009-06-20, 19:15   Link #174
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
There's no right or wrong in the matter but Layfon's cover-up causes trouble, he should have told why he did that in clear detail. There would be no misunderstanding then. For that reason, if there's anyone to blame, it's Layfon for deceiving them all.
It’s his right to keep all of it to himself, when finally being questioned he answered them. And Layfon was good enough with his admirable feats while he’s in Zuellni, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and already being duly punished in Grendan. Told what he did in clear and detail? Sure if only Nina wasn’t’ so forceful with her views like ‘I wouldn’t accept them’. Instead try judging thoroughly she enforce her ideal by saying they probably couldn’t be in the same platoon anymore because their ideals and motive clashes. She tend to forgot that it was because of him that she and the thing she wanted to protect the most, Zuellni, are still alive and well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Leerin doesn't know what it is so she doesn't know what to do with it. All she did back then was heeding to bird fairy's call. And even if Layfon or others knew about the secret, they wouldn't know what Leerin can do so it's eventually up to her to use initiative. But she wouldn't do that because she doesn't know what haikizoku is.
If Nina had exposed her secret, and then Leerin had been told by Layfon, then she would’ve known that her prayer is the key for Nina’s trouble. If Layfon’s besides her, then when the goat activates it could’ve been subdued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
She was okay for the moment and she didn't know the extent of its influence. She couldn't abandon them with Myath on the doorstep and she would of course want to participate in the battle, she has been putting her all for that next city battle. She wouldn't miss it, I guess you should know why based on her past.
She knew that it could eventually hinder her duty as a squad captain. A good leader would’ve realize that their own liability could affect her team in the long-run should not treated early. The right treatment for Nina is quarantine with the squad including Layfon looking after her, with Leerin finally arrives later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
As I told before, goat already was altering their route and it would continue to do so. In ep 23, did you see Layfon or Felli going against the president when he said he wants to extract the goat? No. So your presumption is void.
Did you see Layfon or Felli following the president’s order to further extracting Zuellni or the Haikizoku out of Nina when she’s in their custody. They didn’t do it, so your reasoning is wrong. The same situation would’ve apply should Nina decide to expose her secret back then.

[quote=Ultramarinus] First of all, she couldn't give a break without letting out the reason. Second is that Myath battle is what she's been looking towards in these last years. She was alright up until ep 22 anyway. Did you ever see Leerin and Layfon talking or thinking about how to suppress it after their exchange at the hospital? No. That shows that they still have no idea what to do about it. [/quot]

In all roundup, she was unfit to lead because she knew she was sick, without considering the effect of what could’ve happen midway should the goat activates, which she realized she also couldn’t control it. She also hid her secret when should she should’ve exposed them in ep 20 to avoid further trouble earlier on. Leerin and Layfon couldn’t even think about it because she already went missing in the first place and they’reall pre-occupied in finding her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Yeah but I just applied your logic, it could all have been prevented if Layfon sacrificed himself, like you expect Nina to sacrifice herself. We had talked about ep 17 before, she was alone and she had lost communication after falling down to the room. There wasn't really an option to pull out while Czellni laid beneath the goat's feet anyway (we also know how much s he loves the fairy) and she took her chance, haikizoku had already begun to channel his power afterward.
Meaning she’s weak, not strong as Layfon, couldn’t control the goat’s power and should’ve realized and exposed them sooner in ep 20. But she didn’t. She ended up being a liability to her team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Taking lightly, what's that? That's what exactly Layfon does with those misdeeds as he loses the HB as a direct result. Losing such an honor for petty cash, smearing the school's reputation as well. The president can blackmail him, why? Because it would ruin his reputation to the ground and the city would be a living hell to him even if he could stay, as his misdeeds are against everything their military artists stand for. We also saw that during ep 19, when the president lectured a dumbfounded Layfon about their pride. Their stance on the issue could be anything on the spectrum of Nina to Gorneo. And I doubt many would be as lenient as Nina, recall Dinn and those other no-name captains with their snob attitude towards even Nina?

There's also the fact that it was only the queen's initiative that he was spared from the axe and we heard nothing good about him from any other HB users so far. So his misdeeds are universally against all military artists' creeds.
The misdeeds were when he’s at Grendan, he was punished. Afterwards he punished himself by using the katana and not violating all the rules in Zuellni. He accepted the president’s offer in the end, eventhough with all that fiasco Kallian or Zuellni wouldn’t have released such invaluable and capable fighter, unlike Nina. The pride of all military artist? Zuellni had a weak military and the administration secretly had been relying to Layfon for help. When finally asked for help, eventhough Kallian knew they’re doomed but finally they, the artists knew that even them can be useful for a change in order to protect the city. Nina lenient? More like her squad were made out of losers back then, with her in the helm and not accepting people’s principle I really pity Layfon. Finally, his misdeeds weren’t against all military artist, but by the rule of her-majesty Grendan in his position as an HB, which was exposing the danger that MA’s possibly aren’t humans. If you’re not an HB then you could be like what the Salinvans as military artists. Support illegal activities and works for money. I doubt the rules of Grendan could apply even apply to Zuellni or Myath.
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Old 2009-06-20, 20:07   Link #175
Ultramarinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
It’s his right to keep all of it to himself, when finally being questioned he answered them. And Layfon was good enough with his admirable feats while he’s in Zuellni, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and already being duly punished in Grendan. Told what he did in clear and detail? Sure if only Nina wasn’t’ so forceful with her views like ‘I wouldn’t accept them’. Instead try judging thoroughly she enforce her ideal by saying they probably couldn’t be in the same platoon anymore because their ideals and motive clashes. She tend to forgot that it was because of him that she and the thing she wanted to protect the most, Zuellni, are still alive and well.
Yeah, just like how police officers tell suspects that they have the right to remain silent. But that doesn't mean that they'll receive the correct judgment and they're warned about what they're talking. He hid the truth, we was dealt accordingly. Simple as that.
Quote:
If Nina had exposed her secret, and then Leerin had been told by Layfon, then she would’ve known that her prayer is the key for Nina’s trouble. If Layfon’s besides her, then when the goat activates it could’ve been subdued.
If Nina had told it, the president would have it extracted before Leerin reached the city.
Quote:
She knew that it could eventually hinder her duty as a squad captain. A good leader would’ve realize that their own liability could affect her team in the long-run should not treated early. The right treatment for Nina is quarantine with the squad including Layfon looking after her, with Leerin finally arrives later.
The thing is that there's no treatment, only extraction. Did you see anyone talking about treatment in ep 23? No. Do they know about Leerin coming? No. Do they know if Leerin can do anything about it? No.
Quote:
Did you see Layfon or Felli following the president’s order to further extracting Zuellni or the Haikizoku out of Nina when she’s in their custody. They didn’t do it, so your reasoning is wrong. The same situation would’ve apply should Nina decide to expose her secret back then.
They were bringing her back to the president but Savaris intervened and kidnapped her. They didn't have the means to extract it themselves anyway and they wouldn't bother with it in the middle of the wasteland while there's a war raging on with cannon aimed towards them. The president only asked them to bring her back, he'd take care of the rest.
Quote:
In all roundup, she was unfit to lead because she knew she was sick, without considering the effect of what could’ve happen midway should the goat activates, which she realized she also couldn’t control it. She also hid her secret when should she should’ve exposed them in ep 20 to avoid further trouble earlier on. Leerin and Layfon couldn’t even think about it because she already went missing in the first place and they’reall pre-occupied in finding her.
Haikizoku possession isn't really a disease with documented symptoms and cure. She didn't know what was going to happen and that's why she was scared, confused and went as far as visiting Dinn in his state. As I said, there are ample reasons to hide it while there's no good reason to explain to others from Nina's view. She doesn't watch Regios after all, like willy said. Leerin didn't even have one ounce of thought about how to help Nina even after Layfon went after her. She's flat out clueless, she didn't even tell him about the prayer and yes, she had time. She used that time trying to kiss him instead.
Quote:
Meaning she’s weak, not strong as Layfon, couldn’t control the goat’s power and should’ve realized and exposed them sooner in ep 20. But she didn’t. She ended up being a liability to her team.
Show me someone else except the queen who's more powerful than Layfon. Why do you keep repeating "she's weaker than Layfon" when nobody compares their strength? She's doing what she can but she's not Jesus, she doesn't need to suffer for all humanity's sins to pass as a decent person. There are tons of other crossroads till the goat ended up in her but you're trying to dump all blame of the trouble that's caused by the goat on her. There were ample chances to subdue it before ep 17 and people ranging from Layfon to mercenaries all failed. Eventually it was Layfon who sent Nina after it. If we were to apply your logic that requires Nina to watch Regios on all Regios characters, there are tons of them who are responsible for letting haikizoku roam free.
Quote:
The misdeeds were when he’s at Grendan, he was punished. Afterwards he punished himself by using the katana and not violating all the rules in Zuellni. He accepted the president’s offer in the end, eventhough with all that fiasco Kallian or Zuellni wouldn’t have released such invaluable and capable fighter, unlike Nina. The pride of all military artist? Zuellni had a weak military and the administration secretly had been relying to Layfon for help. When finally asked for help, eventhough Kallian knew they’re doomed but finally they, the artists knew that even them can be useful for a change in order to protect the city. Nina lenient? More like her squad were made out of losers back then, with her in the helm and not accepting people’s principle I really pity Layfon. Finally, his misdeeds weren’t against all military artist, but by the rule of her-majesty Grendan in his position as an HB, which was exposing the danger that MA’s possibly aren’t humans. If you’re not an HB then you could be like what the Salinvans as military artists. Support illegal activities and works for money. I doubt the rules of Grendan could apply even apply to Zuellni or Myath.
People didn't forgive him because he was punished. Nobody knows about his self-punishment and nobody would care anyway, would you forgive a murderer who said he no longer uses Desert Eagle but only uses Beretta? It's absurd beyond reason. He accepted the president's offer because he knew it would ruin his new life. Why? Because of the creed of MA's. You should be aware that being weak compared to other factions means nothing for a military's pride. A country may have a 100-man strong army but their soldiers would have no less pride than another with 1 million-strong. We see that in ep 19, when they ride to their death while Layfon was asking the president why they were doing it even though they knew that they had no chance. The president then lectures him about their pride, even after relying on Layfon until that day. Layfon was at a loss for words because he had forsaken that pride for money. Nina was lenient as she didn't try to kill, exile or spit on Layfon, she just wanted to avoid working together.

And I'm very much sure that all of the cities would harshly punish a MA who uses his title for personal gain and wound a witness. We see that it goes as far as capital punishment. Do you honestly believe that there would be a city that would let that go?
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Old 2009-06-20, 23:08   Link #176
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Yeah, just like how police officers tell suspects that they have the right to remain silent. But that doesn't mean that they'll receive the correct judgment and they're warned about what they're talking. He hid the truth, we was dealt accordingly. Simple as that.
This police happen to live in a cruel and unforgiving world, Regios, where suspect had saved the police including thousands of lives using his powers. By doing so he kept being lawful within the area’s premises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
If Nina had told it, the president would have it extracted before Leerin reached the city.
Her squad wont let it happen, like Layfon or Felli. Even so they’re also Leerin to keep her suppressed. But should it come to the worst and there’re no other choice, if like Kallian said its for the good for the whole city, which also she had stand for, then she of all people should know that risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
The thing is that there's no treatment, only extraction. Did you see anyone talking about treatment in ep 23? No. Do they know about Leerin coming? No. Do they know if Leerin can do anything about it? No.
I wonder why? Because the momentum of such treatment can be treated was already lost in ep 20 onwards. In ep 22 all is too late where military order had been issued. If Nina had told them, it would be quarantine where she was to be kept in check. With Layfon and finally Leerin arrives later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
They were bringing her back to the president but Savaris intervened and kidnapped her. They didn't have the means to extract it themselves anyway and they wouldn't bother with it in the middle of the wasteland while there's a war raging on with cannon aimed towards them. The president only asked them to bring her back, he'd take care of the rest.
Savaris kidnapped her because she was out in the premises instead of being checked, because early measures were not taken due to her secrecy and it cost her squad dearly. When the Haikizoku was suppressed and handled then pretty much Zuellni would’ve been able to move again. At the time her squad probably would prevent the prez for doing so, but again, if its for the benefit to all Zuellni, then Nina would’ve realized the risk and accepted it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Haikizoku possession isn't really a disease with documented symptoms and cure. She didn't know what was going to happen and that's why she was scared, confused and went as far as visiting Dinn in his state. As I said, there are ample reasons to hide it while there's no good reason to explain to others from Nina's view. She doesn't watch Regios after all, like willy said. Leerin didn't even have one ounce of thought about how to help Nina even after Layfon went after her. She's flat out clueless, she didn't even tell him about the prayer and yes, she had time. She used that time trying to kiss him instead.
If she was scared and such, knew she was bearing a disease that would’ve deem her unfit to lead by MA standard and could creating risk such as being possessed in the middle of battle, then why bother leading? Its quite unprofessional. And like I said should have she told them about the secret way back in ep 20 so the momentum with Layfon and Leerin to find a cure could’ve been handled better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Show me someone else except the queen who's more powerful than Layfon. Why do you keep repeating "she's weaker than Layfon" when nobody compares their strength? She's doing what she can but she's not Jesus, she doesn't need to suffer for all humanity's sins to pass as a decent person. There are tons of other crossroads till the goat ended up in her but you're trying to dump all blame of the trouble that's caused by the goat on her. There were ample chances to subdue it before ep 17 and people ranging from Layfon to mercenaries all failed. Eventually it was Layfon who sent Nina after it. If we were to apply your logic that requires Nina to watch Regios on all Regios characters, there are tons of them who are responsible for letting haikizoku roam free.
As I posted She didn’t have the power but insisted she had them by carrying off herself. She’s unfit to be a leader by ep 20 where she had realized she had been possessed but still insisted on leading. What have her actions brought her and to the rest of the squad, trouble, till the very in ep 24. Sad but true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
People didn't forgive him because he was punished. Nobody knows about his self-punishment and nobody would care anyway, would you forgive a murderer who said he no longer uses Desert Eagle but only uses Beretta? It's absurd beyond reason. He accepted the president's offer because he knew it would ruin his new life. Why? Because of the creed of MA's. You should be aware that being weak compared to other factions means nothing for a military's pride. A country may have a 100-man strong army but their soldiers would have no less pride than another with 1 million-strong. We see that in ep 19, when they ride to their death while Layfon was asking the president why they were doing it even though they knew that they had no chance. The president then lectures him about their pride, even after relying on Layfon until that day. Layfon was at a loss for words because he had forsaken that pride for money. Nina was lenient as she didn't try to kill, exile or spit on Layfon, she just wanted to avoid working together.

And I'm very much sure that all of the cities would harshly punish a MA who uses his title for personal gain and wound a witness. We see that it goes as far as capital punishment. Do you honestly believe that there would be a city that would let that go?
Nobody would care so why bother bringing it up? Does the guy using the beretta kept being lawful in his new area? Does the guy happen to be the only guy in the vicinity who’s capable fending off an entire attack of aliens? He accepted the presidents offer because he was a Heaven Blade where he committed a crime while being one, his position and title back then which he had already been punished. It’s not the creed of all MAs as proven with the Salinvans and their illegal activities. And Layfon’s motives were always about survival right from the start, he did it while he’s an HB, was captured and penalized finally exiled. In Zuellni while being lawful he held his motives. Nina can be lenient or even try to kill him (which I’m certain it would’ve been the opposite should it happen), in the end the president and Zuellni would’ve choose him over her. The MA’s as I said differs from each other where Layfon was punished when he’s in his position as an HB, the Salinvans had proven to be a different area altogether with their illegal activities.
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Old 2009-06-21, 02:51   Link #177
BetoJR
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This has turned into one of those epic duels that lasts 3 days and 3 nights.
And are also a pain to read, with all those walls of text...
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Old 2009-06-21, 04:19   Link #178
satomianzaki
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lol...

Ultramarinus' and TrueKnight's continued discussion and exchange of ideas are certainly entertaining...makes me wonder where i stand...but certainly i'm pro-Nina...

gonna miss reading their posts now that csr has come to an end...

but still...i think TK should not be that harsh on bashing and attacking Nina...she's not perfect but certainly not evil to deserve such hate...
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Old 2009-06-21, 06:49   Link #179
Ultramarinus
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Heh, thanks. I certainly enjoyed discussing myself but I guess it's time to bring it to a closure like the anime did. Maybe we can continue with the next season.

But before that, I'll reply to a newer topic that TK mentioned and thus explain why I'm wishing to end it now:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
But should it come to the worst and there’re no other choice, if like Kallian said its for the good for the whole city, which also she had stand for, then she of all people should know that risk.

At the time her squad probably would prevent the prez for doing so, but again, if its for the benefit to all Zuellni, then Nina would’ve realized the risk and accepted it.
You're expecting Nina to do what's among the hardest sacrifices in the world. (not exaggerating, I can only think of paralysis, missing multiple limbs or maybe painful terminal cancer as a worse condition) You must know what a horrendous thing vegetable state is without me telling. It's worse than death. It really is appalling to see you demand such a sacrifice from Nina for the sake of the city, yet say that Felli abandoning city to death is free will and common right.

I think that shows the extent of your unreasonable criticism and while you have such an extreme, prejudiced bias towards characters, I doubt that anything I say will get through to you. Knowing that, it seems meaningless to continue exchanging mostly same issues as we should have already presented our cases clear enough to let others understand our arguments. So I want to end it with a reference to Gintama (ep 141, the 3-day long epic duel between Umibouzu and King of Night's end) which suits this perfectly:
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Old 2009-06-21, 07:06   Link #180
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
You're expecting Nina to do what's among the hardest sacrifices in the world. (not exaggerating, I can only think of paralysis, missing multiple limbs or maybe painful terminal cancer as a worse condition) You must know what a horrendous thing vegetable state is without me telling. It's worse than death. It really is appalling to see you demand such a sacrifice from Nina for the sake of the city, yet say that Felli abandoning city to death is free will and common right.

I think that shows the extent of your unreasonable criticism and while you have such an extreme, prejudiced bias towards characters, I doubt that anything I say will get through to you. Knowing that, it seems meaningless to continue exchanging mostly same issues as we should have already presented our cases clear enough to let others understand our arguments.
And yet you have failed to read what I had wrote, which I said if its come worst to the worst. If the remedy as Layfon and Leerin were out of the question. And sacrifice isn’t really out from Nina’s book. As stated in ep 2 in her past if its for Zuellni even if its death then she would gladly take that risk. You say Felli’s free will right now, well Nina’s exercising her free will to live right now, with the risk of stopping the city and endangering tens of thousands of people. Now you finally know what Felli’s free will and individuality is.

You say unreasonable criticism well for you at least its okay for Nina to exercise her free will to keep her secret and endangering people of Zuellni, with the exception if only she sacrificed herself, yet you’re blaming both Layfon and Felli for exercising their right. I see your playing double standard here but I hope you realize what I meant. Freedom of will existed whether in Nina, Layfon or Felli regardless what circumstances they are in, be it they strong or not, in the end, they’re after all, still human.

It’s unfortunate in the end you deem my arguments as unreasonable and prejudiced, when you as well were the same. I was merely pointing out this fact. Nevertheless I enjoy our discussion.
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