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Old 2010-12-05, 22:24   Link #461
RadiantBeam
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Originally Posted by Heroslayer View Post
Alright, so magic crest is no go. Still is the idea of Magus Killer Shirou still applicable. I mean, Kiritsugu doesn't know much Magecraft other than what's useful for battle, but he does know Reinforcement which is something that Shirou can do.

Though I do have to admit, I plan on making a more bitter Shirou. I imagine that having Kiritsugu take Shirou with him when he 'travels the world' would be perfect for what I want.
Maybe I missed this a page or two back, but how exactly do you plan to make Shirou into a magus killer? The only way he would ever kill a magus was if he felt he had no choice to save someone's life, or if he was under the belief that magi in general are very nasty people. That would require that Shirou either not knowing that Kiritsugu was a magus for whatever reason, or that something happens to him that causes him to see magecraft as equal, since Kiritsugu always taught Shirou to use his power as a magus to help people.
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Old 2010-12-05, 22:33   Link #462
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Very nice as usual RB. A really cute look into Rin's emotional state, particularly in the portions focusing on Shirou. The parts about her father are... well, less cute, obviously, but I like that you didn't take the 'easy way' out, and went the distance to show that yes, she still loves him even after growing up to realize what a deeply flawed man he really was. It really helps add a lot of depth to the character (painful depths, obviously, but this is you we're talking about ). And then ending made me chuckle; she's loved two men in her life, and if you put them in a room together, they would beat each other to a bloody pulp. Yup, that sounds like Rin's usual judgment .

Not bad, not bad at all!
Yeah it was really good. Although I don't know where you fit Sakura into there, RB.
Rin really did love Tokiomi, and respected him. Hell, even as she was about to be killed by Saber in the prologue, she didn't hate her, but was only mused on her cool efficiency and grace.

Rin does have many layers.

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Maybe I missed this a page or two back, but how exactly do you plan to make Shirou into a magus killer?
Doesn't he mean more that he is more effective against magi as a psychical combat specialist? I seem to remember him being able them saying that although Shirou will never be good enough to be part of the top 100 magi in the Association like Rin, he can get as far as getting Kiritsugu's "Magus Killer" designation if he trains hard.
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Old 2010-12-05, 22:41   Link #463
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Yeah it was really good. Although I don't know where you fit Sakura into there, RB.
In both sections there's a brief reference to Sakura, post UBW. But I'm not surprised you didn't see it, it's a very quick "blink and you'll miss it" mention.

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Doesn't he mean more that he is more effective against magi as a psychical combat specialist? I seem to remember him being able them saying that although Shirou will never be good enough to be part of the top 100 magi in the Association like Rin, he can get as far as getting Kiritsugu's "Magus Killer" designation if he trains hard.
My question is, exactly why would Shirou aim for that "Magus Killer" designation in the first place? Shirou's earliest memories of Kiritsugu focus on the fact that Kiritsugu told him he was a magus and taught him to use his powers as a magus to help others, so how would he become a Magus Killer under those circumstances? Even in HF, he never really kills unless he has to.
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Old 2010-12-05, 23:05   Link #464
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My question is, exactly why would Shirou aim for that "Magus Killer" designation in the first place? Shirou's earlies memories of Kiritsugu focus on the fact that Kiritsugu told him he was a magus and taught him to use his powers as a magus to help others, so how would he become a Magus Killer under those circumstances? Even in HF, he never really kills unless he has to.
Sorry it seems that I didn't really get my point across. I'm not really placing the title of 'Magus Killer' on Shirou. The point was to make a less optimistic, and battle hardened Shirou. The ideal of trading one life for ten, ten lives for hundred, etc is not something he likes but something that he accepts.

As for how I was planning on doing that. I planned on Shirou following along with Kiritsugu on one of the trips that he takes and seeing how Kiritsugu really works when something goes wrong.

Honestly this all came from when Kiritsugu tells Shirou during the whole Magus walk alongside death speech, "You die when you die, and you kill when you must."

I wanted to write a Shirou that took that line a bit more seriously.
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Old 2010-12-05, 23:08   Link #465
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Originally Posted by Heroslayer View Post
As for how I was planning on doing that. I planned on Shirou following along with Kiritsugu on one of the trips that he takes and seeing how Kiritsugu really works when something goes wrong.

Honestly this all came from when Kiritsugu tells Shirou during the whole Magus walk alongside death speech, "You die when you die, and you kill when you must."

I wanted to write a Shirou that took that line a bit more seriously.
My question is, why would Shirou tag along? I was always under the impression that the times Kiritsugu left Shirou at home and traveled, he was trying to find a way to get Ilya back.
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Old 2010-12-05, 23:14   Link #466
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In both sections there's a brief reference to Sakura, post UBW. But I'm not surprised you didn't see it, it's a very quick "blink and you'll miss it" mention.
Ah, yes, I don't know how I missed it. Still, I doubt Rin herself could do much for her there without dealing additional blows. The 'hold her for awhile' approach may be alright for now, but it's really just the tip of the iceberg. Then leaving her in the Matou mansion while she goes home to Shirou....plus, she just physically injured her dear sister, making her feel even lower. Rin takes the approach of "I'll take all her pain upon myself, and suffer her wrath" but that doesn't have very good results a good deal of the time.

How can I explain myself without saying something that'll get me misunderstood, sounding like "you just hate Rin"? Hmm... I'll have to think on that....but I'll keep that for another time.

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My question is, exactly why would Shirou aim for that "Magus Killer" designation in the first place? Shirou's earlies memories of Kiritsugu focus on the fact that Kiritsugu told him he was a magus and taught him to use his powers as a magus to help others, so how would he become a Magus Killer under those circumstances? Even in HF, he never really kills unless he has to.
It's what the Association would call him, not what he would call himself. Like how Aoko doesn't like being called 'Blue'.
Also the "killer" part of it could just mean combat effectiveness, not that he slaughters magi left and right. Just that he is effective against them.
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Sorry it seems that I didn't really get my point across. I'm not really placing the title of 'Magus Killer' on Shirou. The point was to make a less optimistic, and battle hardened Shirou. The ideal of trading one life for ten, ten lives for hundred, etc is not something he likes but something that he accepts.

As for how I was planning on doing that. I planned on Shirou following along with Kiritsugu on one of the trips that he takes and seeing how Kiritsugu really works when something goes wrong.

Honestly this all came from when Kiritsugu tells Shirou during the whole Magus walk alongside death speech, "You die when you die, and you kill when you must."

I wanted to write a Shirou that took that line a bit more seriously.
Hmm, you might have Shirou pegged wrongly. He says already that the kill "one to save ten" is something he has always tried to deny, but what he finds in his heart to be true. It's why he basically breaks Shinji's arm when he refused to lower the Bloodfort and nearly choked the life out of him. He hates that part of the ideal, because in every part of the story, where you would see he almost wretches anytime he faces such a decision.



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Old 2010-12-05, 23:16   Link #467
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Ah, yes, I don't know how I missed it. Still, I doubt Rin herself could do much for her there without dealing additional blows. The 'hold her for awhile' approach may be alright for now, but it's really just the tip of the iceberg. Then leaving her in the Matou mansion while she goes home to Shirou....plus, she just physically injured her dear sister, making her feel even lower. Rin takes the approach of "I'll take all her pain upon myself, and suffer her wrath" but that doesn't have very good results a good deal of the time.

How can I explain myself without saying something that'll get me misunderstood, sounding like "you just hate Rin"? Hmm... I'll have to think on that....but I'll keep that for another time.
Eh, well, part of the problem was I wasn't focusing specifically on Sakura; I simply used Sakura's situation to highlight two different things for the piece. I'm sure I could find other ways to develop it if I devoted a full fic to it, but I'm not interested in that kind of thing anyway, and the brief description worked well enough for my purposes.
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Old 2010-12-05, 23:54   Link #468
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Hmm, you might have Shirou pegged wrongly. He says already that the kill "one to save ten" is something he has always tried to deny, but what he finds in his heart to be true. It's why he basically breaks Shinji's arm when he refused to lower the Bloodfort and nearly choked the life out of him. He hates that part of the ideal, because in every part of the story, where you would see he almost wretches anytime he faces such a decision.
That's the thing. It's during the story that he confronts that part of his ideal. I want him to have reached that resolution already.

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My question is, why would Shirou tag along? I was always under the impression that the times Kiritsugu left Shirou at home and traveled, he was trying to find a way to get Ilya back.
I'm working on that part. It's why I wanted to throw out the idea before I started writing. Get all the plot holes spotted so I can fill them up.
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Old 2010-12-06, 08:07   Link #469
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Ah, yes, I don't know how I missed it. Still, I doubt Rin herself could do much for her there without dealing additional blows. The 'hold her for awhile' approach may be alright for now, but it's really just the tip of the iceberg. Then leaving her in the Matou mansion while she goes home to Shirou....plus, she just physically injured her dear sister, making her feel even lower. Rin takes the approach of "I'll take all her pain upon myself, and suffer her wrath" but that doesn't have very good results a good deal of the time.
Well, who's to say that she left Sakura at the Matou mansion? After all, her house is only next door, and I assume that she's meeting Shirou at his home, so there's no reason why she couldn't have taken Sakura back to the Tohsaka mansion and told her to make herself at home. Plus, it says she came to Shirou that afternoon, so I'd imagine she was with Sakura for some while.

And, really, if Rin were to put her entire life on hold to help Sakura, then that would just make Sakura feel even worse, because she'd think she's intruding. She has to help Sakura, of course, but the best way to do that isn't necessarily to spend every waking moment with her. We simply don't know what exactly she would do here, and I agree with you that Rin isn't the best at dealing with such situations, but at least she has Shirou to help, and it hardly takes much of a change in their routine for Sakura to come see them in the morning even if Rin stays around at Shirou's that night (or, hell, Sakura could come with her, if necessary).


But, yeah, RB, it's well-written, although I would also like to know more about what happens to Sakura here. Rin's reaction to her father is probably about right. She recognises that he's an idiot, that he caused Sakura lot of suffering and that she is never going to live up to his ideal (and, indeed, does not want to), but she still loves him nonetheless.
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Old 2010-12-06, 10:50   Link #470
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Well, who's to say that she left Sakura at the Matou mansion? After all, her house is only next door, and I assume that she's meeting Shirou at his home, so there's no reason why she couldn't have taken Sakura back to the Tohsaka mansion and told her to make herself at home. Plus, it says she came to Shirou that afternoon, so I'd imagine she was with Sakura for some while.

And, really, if Rin were to put her entire life on hold to help Sakura, then that would just make Sakura feel even worse, because she'd think she's intruding. She has to help Sakura, of course, but the best way to do that isn't necessarily to spend every waking moment with her. We simply don't know what exactly she would do here, and I agree with you that Rin isn't the best at dealing with such situations, but at least she has Shirou to help, and it hardly takes much of a change in their routine for Sakura to come see them in the morning even if Rin stays around at Shirou's that night (or, hell, Sakura could come with her, if necessary).
Pretty much hit the nail on the head here. It's a short bit, but something I wanted to at least try to convey that Rin has no idea how to help Sakura, how to even begin to help her, so she's basically starting from scratch and trying her hardest to figure out what works best. Hence why she later cries on Shirou in the second section: because she has no clue if she's actually any help to Sakura. She's pretty much flying blind in trying to correct the mistake her father made.
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Old 2010-12-06, 11:07   Link #471
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That's the thing. It's during the story that he confronts that part of his ideal. I want him to have reached that resolution already.
You want a kid, at age 13( this was when Kiritsugu died) to have already faced his demons, gain cynicism +3, and 'find his place in life' by 16, being raised by the guy who lived his whole life and couldn't find the answer? You'd just end up with a fundamentally broken messed up teenager whose colder, but still mistaken. He'd be just as broken but considerably less warm. That's what you're going for I assume.
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Old 2010-12-06, 11:48   Link #472
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Pretty much hit the nail on the head here. It's a short bit, but something I wanted to at least try to convey that Rin has no idea how to help Sakura, how to even begin to help her, so she's basically starting from scratch and trying her hardest to figure out what works best. Hence why she later cries on Shirou in the second section: because she has no clue if she's actually any help to Sakura. She's pretty much flying blind in trying to correct the mistake her father made.
Yeah, exactly. That sums Rin up. She wants to help Sakura (the same applies in HF), but she honestly doesn't even know where tio start. I'd imagine, though, that given the situation here she'd confide in Shirou and try to get him to help Sakura the best he can, and unlike Rin he probably could be of help, even just by his mere presense. Sakura will likely feel down because he's "abandoned" her for Rin, and reassuring her that he still cares for her and thinks of her as a treasured member of his family (literally, once he marries Rin...) will do her the world of good. After all, she never expected to end up in a relationship with him, and just seeing that he genuinely does care for her even if he's not thinking of her in that way will make her feel a lot more wanted and a lot more confident.

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You want a kid, at age 13( this was when Kiritsugu died) to have already faced his demons, gain cynicism +3, and 'find his place in life' by 16, being raised by the guy who lived his whole life and couldn't find the answer? You'd just end up with a fundamentally broken messed up teenager whose colder, but still mistaken. He'd be just as broken but considerably less warm. That's what you're going for I assume.
Yeah, exactly.

Shirou followed his father's degraded ideal (kill one to save many) in precisely one ending (which is the MoS Bad End), and I very much doubt that doing so made him happy. Further, Kiritsugu knew the problems with that ideal (because it fucked his life up and resulted in him losing his wife and kid and killing many innocents for nothing), so he sure as hell wouldn't encourage Shirou to follow it.

Shirou just wants to help people, and there's no way that, as a 13-year-old kid, he'd accept that he can't do that and he has to resolve to just murdering innocent people in cold blood because they're "in the way", like his father did. It's simply not in-character for him to do so unless he has some huge choice between protecting someone he loves and potentially letting others die to make like he did in HF (and like Kiritsugu had to make in his backstory), and even then it's more than likely that he'd just abandon the ideal and save the person, because that's how Shirou is. He's an idealist, and it's pretty damn hard to stop a 13-year-old from thinking that way (even Kiritsugu was an idealist at that age). And, if Kiritsugu were to still follow the ideal, then he'd probably have left Shirou to die (or left him in the orphanage), because the main reason he saved him was so that he could have something to cling on to, to say that he'd saved at least one life amongst the mess of the Grail War that had killed so many for nothing.
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Old 2010-12-06, 17:20   Link #473
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Well, to be fair to Heroslayer, it is an interesting idea.
It'd be like making a child soldier-type Shirou, which has it's merits.
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Old 2010-12-06, 18:49   Link #474
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Well, it's essentially pre-emptively creating MoS Shirou, so you can probably guess how I feel about the idea. Plus, like I said, I just don't think it can work, because Shirou is simply not that sort of person.
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Old 2010-12-06, 19:49   Link #475
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*sigh* Too many plot holes pointed out for me to give it a serious attempt. Thanks though, for letting me bounce the idea.

I suck at serious. Maybe I should try humor.
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Old 2010-12-06, 21:41   Link #476
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*sigh* Too many plot holes pointed out for me to give it a serious attempt. Thanks though, for letting me bounce the idea.

I suck at serious. Maybe I should try humor.
You could always try making it AU, working with a similar idea. Just a thought.
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Old 2010-12-06, 23:26   Link #477
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I know, but when I feel off when I want to make such a change that creates so many plot holes and just labels it as AU. I mean, it's one thing if that's what I was aiming for, but it's another when my goal is something close to canon.

Child Solider Shirou is going to have to be put on the back burner for right now. I'm going to try to think up of a new thing. Probably try a hand at humor before going back to trying a serious story.
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Old 2010-12-07, 09:14   Link #478
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Well, whatever you want; nobody can decide what you're going to write but you. And honestly, I'm the sort who'd most likely enjoy a decent humor piece more than grim 'Child Soldier Shirou' anyway, so feel free to make me laugh at any time
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Old 2010-12-07, 09:33   Link #479
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Well, whatever you want; nobody can decide what you're going to write but you. And honestly, I'm the sort who'd most likely enjoy a decent humor piece more than grim 'Child Soldier Shirou' anyway, so feel free to make me laugh at any time
Really? I wouldn't mind seeing a kid Shirou shanking people for the greater good. In a way thats it's own humor.
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Old 2010-12-07, 12:56   Link #480
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Really? I wouldn't mind seeing a kid Shirou shanking people for the greater good. In a way thats it's own humor.
Meh.

Honestly, I'm sick of all this glorification of the idea of murdering innocent people, even if it's for a "good cause"....

We get enough of it from people saying "wow, isn't the Mind of Steel ending awesome?" Even if you ignore the fact that he's probably just doomed the entirety of Fuyuki to being swallowed by the Grail mud, it's still not a good thing that he's decided to murder an innocent girl who dearly loves him and deserves a chance in life (that he can perhaps give her) in cold blood....
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