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Old 2009-02-18, 11:49   Link #21
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
It's fairly obvious Ogichi will manifest himself again at some point. Kubo needs to make this fight close but at the same time open new avenues for Ichigo to further develop beyond Ulquiorra's current level. After all, it's important to smoothen out the transition between him being able to take on a top espada - and then someone like Aizen. This would seem like the ideal time.
I'd rather see old man Zangetsu show up again. Hichigo fights for Ichigo, Zangetsu teaches Ichigo how to fight. Hichigo is badass for sure, but he's basically a crutch for Ichigo when he shows up in the real world. I don't think his appearances mark progession, it's only progression when Ichigo is able to overcome him in his inner world.

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Originally Posted by Hitsugaya_Toushiro View Post
yeah....it became boring as hell

vs byakuya: sword play and kuroi getsuga

vs grimmjow 3 times: sword play and kuroi getsuga

vs dordonni: sword play and kuroi getsuga

vs ulquiorra 1 time: sword play and kuroi getsuga


damn! something new damn!
Yeah, like Cub-Sama said you have to wonder what Kubo was on if he thought everyone would be wow'd by Ulq's cero just because the color was changed.

Y'know I don't really even care about flashy new techniques. Good 'ol fashion swordplay is fine...just go a few chapters without a getsuga or cero T_T . Zaraki vs. Ichigo was epic without dozens of energy blasts. I miss the more marital aspects of swordfighting, like in earlier fights (Ichigo vs. Ikkaku comes to mind) just little things like one of the fighters noticing an attack pattern or attempting a feint attack. I'll wait for the full chapter to come out before I rant any further. Still, it looks like a slide downhill.
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Old 2009-02-18, 11:50   Link #22
hakisak
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Haven't we learned not to pre-judge before we see actual chapter?

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Old 2009-02-18, 12:06   Link #23
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by hakisak View Post
Haven't we learned not to pre-judge before we see actual chapter?

Yeah, that's why I edited my post a bit. I still hold true to my criticism on the overuse of the special moves, but there's still the possibility that there might be some interesting dialog peppered in w/ the getsugas and ceros
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Old 2009-02-18, 12:45   Link #24
Kakashi
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I'd rather see old man Zangetsu show up again. Hichigo fights for Ichigo, Zangetsu teaches Ichigo how to fight. Hichigo is badass for sure, but he's basically a crutch for Ichigo when he shows up in the real world. I don't think his appearances mark progession, it's only progression when Ichigo is able to overcome him in his inner world.
I meant his appearance would prompt a power-up, whatever happens from then on largely hinges on how Ichigo manages to regain authority again. We know his natural response is to fight back every time, but it's strange that despite Ichigo's inner world being tripartite, Zangetsu has become passive in Ichigo's sword recently. His absence is confusing me a bit, maybe I overlooked something, but I agree it would be cool if he made himself heard again.

Quote:
Y'know I don't really even care about flashy new techniques. Good 'ol fashion swordplay is fine...just go a few chapters without a getsuga or cero T_T . Zaraki vs. Ichigo was epic without dozens of energy blasts. I miss the more marital aspects of swordfighting, like in earlier fights (Ichigo vs. Ikkaku comes to mind) just little things like one of the fighters noticing an attack pattern or attempting a feint attack. I'll wait for the full chapter to come out before I rant any further. Still, it looks like a slide downhill.
Word. Ichigo is going to make Naruto's Rasengan and Goku's Kamehameha spamming look like a occurence which only happens when all the galaxies in the universe align in a straight line.
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Old 2009-02-18, 12:48   Link #25
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I am too but I would rather see Ichigo get a new move! Kubo has long denied Ichigo and Renji power-ups! I demand he make up for that...

*I am passionate*

Unfortunatly one of the problems with bleach is that it has not set itself up very well for power ups and new moves...

The main part of a shinigami's powers is their sword... but the sword comes with pre-defined powers and abilities (the same can be said about most hollows)... no amount of a training can allow you to create new moves, you just have to work with what you got. Other Shinigami however, do manage to find some flexibility with their fighting by making use of Kido, for which there is a very long list of moves to use... Unfortunatly, both Renji and Ichigo are not good with Kido (ichigo hasn't even tried to learn it) and thus they are stuck with the limitations of their swords... essentially, Kubo hasn't really given melee type characters like them much flexibility in their fighting... we can only hope that Zangetsu does have another predefined power that ichigo has not unlocked... this is also why i kind look forward to fights with characters like Nanao who seems like she may be primarily a kido fighter; a fight with a kido expert will be much more interesting

This is unlike Naruto, where a good train session can lead to a new jutsu and allow a character to build on their move set; the only true limit being elemental affinity... grant it, that's also why Naruto has often been annoying as a character since Kishi has ignored such possibilities and just has Naruto learn variations of the same damn moves instead of adding more variety... One piece meets more into the middle ground; each character has a predefined way of fighting that they can't explore outside of, BUT they still maintain the flexbilitiy to learn new moves and ways of fighting within their predefined fighting style.
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Old 2009-02-18, 13:45   Link #26
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If you use your imagination Ichigo can pull off decent tricks just with shunpo and getsuga (like GT and then another GT to break it into a smart bomb,or 8 GTs from all directions etc)...and he should be able to fire off ceros when masked. <- I hope the next chapter isn't a cero clash.....
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Old 2009-02-18, 14:16   Link #27
hakisak
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*Note* been up all night because I have been waiting since Monday night for the first hint of spoiler...I may babble a bit, but once I am full control of my faculties...it will make more sense---(need sleep)

You remind of user I love dearly, that I met because we were always disagreeing and I really grew to love the bastard---in another time & place .
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Unfortunatly one of the problems with bleach is that it has not set itself up very well for power ups and new moves...

The main part of a shinigami's powers is their sword... but the sword comes with pre-defined powers and abilities (the same can be said about most hollows)... no amount of a training can allow you to create new moves, you just have to work with what you got. Other Shinigami however, do manage to find some flexibility with their fighting by making use of Kido, for which there is a very long list of moves to use... Unfortunatly, both Renji and Ichigo are not good with Kido (ichigo hasn't even tried to learn it) and thus they are stuck with the limitations of their swords... essentially, Kubo hasn't really given melee type characters like them much flexibility in their fighting... we can only hope that Zangetsu does have another predefined power that ichigo has not unlocked... this is also why i kind look forward to fights with characters like Nanao who seems like she may be primarily a kido fighter; a fight with a kido expert will be much more interesting

This is unlike Naruto, where a good train session can lead to a new jutsu and allow a character to build on their move set; the only true limit being elemental affinity... grant it, that's also why Naruto has often been annoying as a character since Kishi has ignored such possibilities and just has Naruto learn variations of the same damn moves instead of adding more variety... One piece meets more into the middle ground; each character has a predefined way of fighting that they can't explore outside of, BUT they still maintain the flexbilitiy to learn new moves and ways of fighting within their predefined fighting style.
I think Ichigo is flexible....the problem is he's too powerful or Kubo has to make him fail ( in the most ridiculous ways or taking a beating for someone else) or he would pwn, constantly. I don't like an easy win and I watch kung-fu flicks the hero always gets his ass kicked badly then comes back and fucks shit up!
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The main part of a shinigami's powers is their sword... but the sword comes with pre-defined powers and abilities
Lol whut?

How can you say that when Byakuya showed us all just how great their potential powers can be? He has more moves than anyone we have seen besides Aizen (His questionable because you don't really know if it's kido or illusion or hypnosis or combination of all three, because it just might be a kido based Zanpakuto---all you can do is speculate)

With Naruto he has to train and learn from a another..all the characters do. Or they have those blood-line limits, that are predefined and limited.

(but) A Shinigami can only learn from their weapons, and that requires complete synchronization with it. Which Ichigo lacks because he's a noob and doesn't know jack. A Shinigami's Zanpakuto /powers are direct reflection of the wielder's spirit power and type. Also two shinigami can have the same exact type of reiatsu but different abilities .( Unlike those blood-line limits) If one is clueless about the type of Zanpakuto or can't properly understand or communicate it with it...then their powers are limited (ZARAKI) ...otherwise the potential is greater, not limited and certainly ---not predefined since it's something you have learn....Bankai also takes ten years to master. Ichigo has had his for less than a year. (Bleach time)

Kidou aside is something that depends on level of skill and power levels.

That is what I believe is Renji's problem. Hihou Zambimaru most powerful attack looks a lot like red flame canon. It is also crippled by Kidou---So much like Zomari I think his powers are in fact Kidou Based---which he sucks in so he can't get a power up.

Also Kidou is extra...Both Shiba siblings can use it so it's not limited to Shinigami.

So it's an asset but not something you can depend on since anyone with spirit power and the knowledge of how it works can learn it

Beside I don't want him to try and use Kidou...If Ichigo learned it...it would be overkill and he would be HAX HAX HAX! Right now he just has the loophole of being able to power up, when he was really weak before. But this is due to being a Shingami in name only and he sucks at controlling his own reiatsu-reiatsu manipulation--and having immense spirit power and his own Shinigami powers in the first place.

As far as moves---Only the sword knows just what it can and can't do. Ichigo has to have another mind-meld with both Zangetsu and Ogichi....otherwise he will just get better at swordplay but not get better at utilizing his powers

He did do that freaky Getsuga Tensho but ---I'm not tryin ta hear dat...I won't accept that as a new move

I have to stop now because I am just rambling and I feel like I am embarrassing myself...because power level and speculation are my thing (Notice I am like the only girl this deep into it---I have a lot of pride so I must stop or I fear I may look like a jackass atm) ---When I rested ...I promise you I will make a hell of lot more sense

btw...Ikkaku has a melee type...no special abilities. Just stronger attack power. Ichigo and Renji do not

"read Until Death Do Us Part"
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Last edited by hakisak; 2009-02-18 at 15:42.
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Old 2009-02-18, 15:07   Link #28
Kafriel
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A Shinigami can only learn from their weapons, and that requires complete synchronization with it. Which Ichigo lacks because he's a noob and doesn't know jack.
I can see it, Zangetsu coming out to fight and Ichigo screaming SYNCHRO!
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Old 2009-02-18, 15:37   Link #29
hakisak
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
I can see it, Zangetsu coming out to fight and Ichigo screaming SYNCHRO!
If Gramps or Stiener came out...that would really kick ass! ( Not to fond of Keita-Kuro needs to take back her arm!)
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Old 2009-02-18, 16:26   Link #30
Ichy
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Ichigo could really use more moves.
If Byakuya can use flower pedals to form swords Ichigo could use GT reiatsu to perform Archer like swordspam and shit
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Old 2009-02-18, 18:20   Link #31
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I think Ichigo is flexible....the problem is he's too powerful or Kubo has to make him fail ( in the most ridiculous ways or taking a beating for someone else) or he would pwn, constantly.
He is definitely not flexible, if GT fails the first time, he tries in 10'000 other times, which also fail then there is the rare chance when he gets close enough to use it point blank, that is not flexible it is just retarded (just like Naruto's rasengan and Kage Bunshin spamming). Also he is not powerful, he has been overpowered so many times, he has a lot of reiatsu but he can't focus it which hinders him, the only reason he wins his fights is because of completely hack power ups (Hime telling him not to die is the greatest of all hack power ups).

Hime's voice is so sweet if this was an RPG her voice would cause Attack Up 10%
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Old 2009-02-18, 18:23   Link #32
Arachne
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Ichigo could really use more moves.
If Byakuya can use flower pedals to form swords Ichigo could use GT reiatsu to perform Archer like swordspam and shit
Ichigo: SWORD DANCE NO JUSTU!
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Old 2009-02-18, 20:06   Link #33
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Any moment now guys. Time is going to freeze and Zangetsu and Ichigo are gonna train and Ichigo gonna learn a new move and ssj2 lol.
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Old 2009-02-18, 20:45   Link #34
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Right now ill take any kind of attack from ichigo as long as i dont ever have to see getsuga tenshou anymore
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Old 2009-02-18, 20:45   Link #35
hakisak
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He is definitely not flexible, if GT fails the first time, he tries in 10'000 other times, which also fail then there is the rare chance when he gets close enough to use it point blank, that is not flexible it is just retarded (just like Naruto's rasengan and Kage Bunshin spamming). Also he is not powerful, he has been overpowered so many times, he has a lot of reiatsu but he can't focus it which hinders him, the only reason he wins his fights is because of completely hack power ups (Hime telling him not to die is the greatest of all hack power ups).

Hime's voice is so sweet if this was an RPG her voice would cause Attack Up 10%
Ok this is starting to seriously disturb me. I was really trying to stay quiet, but I can't

what are you rapping about?

He is powerful...

He isn't weak, he's just ignorant. Because no one ever taught him, because they can't. No one can tell him about his own strengths and weaknesses... He has to learn from them...and his own experiences. It's just sometimes he doesn't apply common sense and suffers from instant gratification and rushes in..That is his failings---



Though they were once one, they aren't but work the together. Only thing is one side has the potential to become more dominant based on Ichigo's emotions. Because they are both reflections of him.--they are him they aren't two people who said " Rent's cheap..its nothing but air in this head but we'll just live here and help out as payment for room and board"

Zangetsu is a manifestation of his character and Hollow Ichigo represents the little bit of darkness he has (we all have) inside.

He is just an extreme version of Ichigo. Ichigo is cocky and and always confident he can win or he's the strongest---it's when he's not then he's vulnerable.

He doesn't know anything about them, because aside from the occasional materialization or manifestation----he knows nothing about them. Because he does not know how to reach him. Therefore he does not know how to use them.
You are also forgetting that he's part hollow and it's been said that Hollow's are stronger in HM than anywhere else...that applies to Ulq as well. He is actually stronger for the moment because he is fighting on his own turf...whereas Ichigo is new jack and has to learn his way around, but the more time he spends there the stronger he gets.

The more the stripes change. When he repaired his mask during the fight with GJ the stripes changed, they change after every use and he gets stronger. You are also forgetting that Ichigo has instincts and the ability to adjust to the way his opponent fights after awhile---especially if he clashes with them more than once (Ie Zangetsu Bunshins, Byakuya, and GJ) ...and three's the charm, he always demonstrates something new and wins the third fight. Ichigo can fight very well, lets not forget that...




Ichigo has never just won by a fluke the only fight I would say that was truly almost a draw was the Zaraki fight...and Ichigo is light years ahead of him in power level now

Let's not forget that his bankai is hell on his body because it condenses it power to give him the speed and let's not forget that Getsuga Tensho consumes his reiatsu and lets not forget that Ichigo is not using most of his true power because he doesn't know how to. He cant fully control it...yet it's so immense it always leaks out...let's not forget he awakened four other people's spirit powers just by them being in his exalted presence....NO CHARACTER IN THE BLEACHERVERSE CAN SAY THAT.

(Keigo, Tatsuki, Orihime & Chad)
This is why I said Kubo made him too strong in the begining...He had above average deathgod powers to begin with, and went from third officer to captain level in three consecutive fights...with no time to really heal, then fought a bunch of Zangetsu Bunshins and with no time to Heal...went and fought Byakuya and yet he doesn't get credit for pwnage in less than a week's time and YOU SAW EXACTLY HOW AND WHY HE POWER-UP. Not shouting at you-- just those who don't remember that It's been explained many times...

That was KT's mistake because of those events -- he can't make any further progress , because he did a bunch of amazing shit too fast.

Ichigo is the strongest character---RIGHT NOW PERIOD!

He just has all these handicaps, road blocks and pitfalls Very Convincing Arrancar tooting their own horns and not really doing shit---to keep him from laying waste to every character because he should given his stats. But then who in the hell would want to see that?! I sure as hell wouldn't!

I love the hell out of Ulquiorra but let's call a spade a spade...to say he's a top ranked Espada who may be a VL Menos before Shinigamification...who obviously knows his own powers can barely beat a Fake Shinigami who went through Arrancarization but has no idea wtf that truly entails

Ulq has blocked some blows and talked trash but tell me ...No show me where he's owning Ichigo...He's just saying he has but they both look pretty evenly matched. As soon as Ichigo went Vaizard, he begin to overwhelm him and Ulquiorra had to release.

quick wits, adaptability and the ability to learn quickly from your mistakes or failures...can pwn experience.

Those are Ichigo's greatest strengths along with his power. He's a finisher, a closer. He may have a rocky start but he always shines in the end

The Noi abuse...is just etched in everyone's minds everyone discounts the fights he had, or the blows he took for others, and the energy he already expended by the time he met Noi

And people tend focus on "Current Events " alone...maybe it's because-- His character is just not ostentatious in design-- the fact that he has kick ass abilities and weapon---- is the reason a lot of things about him seem to go unnoticed.
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Old 2009-02-18, 20:47   Link #36
Arachne
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He is definitely not flexible, if GT fails the first time, he tries in 10'000 other times, which also fail then there is the rare chance when he gets close enough to use it point blank, that is not flexible it is just retarded (just like Naruto's rasengan and Kage Bunshin spamming). Also he is not powerful, he has been overpowered so many times, he has a lot of reiatsu but he can't focus it which hinders him, the only reason he wins his fights is because of completely hack power ups (Hime telling him not to die is the greatest of all hack power ups).

Hime's voice is so sweet if this was an RPG her voice would cause Attack Up 10%
So..your logic is, he is not powerful he just powers up out of nowhere and the raw power he has is..what?
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Old 2009-02-18, 20:51   Link #37
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Kick-ass abilities being one single attack he's used throughout the whole series, of course...and, well, his weapon being a massive sword/jet black katana kinda stopped being appealing.
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Old 2009-02-18, 20:58   Link #38
hakisak
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Er I mention regneration, feats ---power level, and all that and all you remember is Getsuga Tensho?

He has three kinds of powers he has to learn about

Anyone can have a high amount of spirit power. But that does not make them Shinigami powers. That is a certain kind of power... since...We have Quincy's and Hollows....and I am sure if Ishida dies---he will still be a Quincy and not morph into a Shinigami


so High amount of Reiatsu doesn't necessarily refer to Shinigami or Hollow powers alone.


He already had high amounts of spirit powers (That I believe he inherited from his human mother) and dormant Shinigami powers that he was born with from his father... Then His Reiastu (The Shingami powers) split and became two different (both Shinigami & Hollow) kinds that were no longer one, yet coexist along with powers he had from jump and all that other good shit I just said...makes him kick ass, imo.
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Old 2009-02-18, 20:59   Link #39
cloak_and_dagger
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
Looking at how unorignal Kubo is I am guessing....Black and RED Getsuga
lol..but how u gonna do that in a black and white manga?

Unless in the middle pages you do a colour spread.
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Old 2009-02-18, 21:00   Link #40
hakisak
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lol..but how u gonna do that in a black and white manga?

Unless in the middle pages you do a colour spread.
I could swear Kuroi was two-toned and Black and Red in the first place...
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