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Old 2010-07-19, 21:22   Link #2241
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
Reading comprehension fail

Like ChainLegacy I'm saying most DragonBall fillers (GT included) were mostly crap and I stand by that believe. Heck I even think most DB movies are subpar including the Brolly ones.
You take my original comment completely out of context and when I do the same I am the one to fail at reading comprehension? Brilliant! I can't wait see whats next!

Anyways I am going to have to break it down for you as it seems you didn't get my point:

1. This whole thing started because it was implied that GT was "crap" since it wasn't Toriyama's work.

2. I pointed out that there is nothing as outrageous in GT to make me think "hmm did they just change writers in GT?" ..... The change didn't make me think "Oh noes GT story line is horrible compared to the AWESOME story line that preceded!"

3. Apparently some were able to somehow differentiate the subtle changes in writing style when Toriyama stopped being involved in DB. Which is surprising to me cause the story line isn't the factor that comes through in DB but the incredible fights. Unless I somehow missed DB's remarkably cunning story line

4. I brought up the first 80 Eps of DB which I strongly believe were Toriyama's work to make a point, and that point is, if people were able to watch that whole thing (80 eps of pure Toriyama) which started DB and were still going by the time Z started out, it is unbelievable that they would drop Z because of a Garlic Jr arc or GT because somehow all of the dragon balls are now scattered throughout the universe.

Point in case, Toriyama's work is not that remarkably better than the rest of the work that follows so being outraged by some booboos in Z or GT is kinda funny really...

SO as you see you can't have it both ways... if Toriyamas work is so highly regarded and yet you say DB is, and I quote: "Subpar" then isn't that a clear contradiction? Off course it is! .... I rest my case

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-07-19 at 21:35.
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Old 2010-07-20, 01:21   Link #2242
SuperKnuckles
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
That scene wasn't shown at this part of the story. I was talking about the few scenes that had Vegeta and 18 on a highway, jumping from car's and van's. Glad they cut that filler out.
Yeah. Kinda reminds me just how few interaction with the outside world the Z heroes have had in the manga itself except for a sparse moment or two in Cell games and Buu saga.

A bit of a shame, considering just how quirky and weird the world is thanks to the capsule technology.
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Old 2010-07-20, 12:33   Link #2243
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
You take my original comment completely out of context and when I do the same I am the one to fail at reading comprehension? Brilliant! I can't wait see whats next!

Anyways I am going to have to break it down for you as it seems you didn't get my point:

1. This whole thing started because it was implied that GT was "crap" since it wasn't Toriyama's work.

2. I pointed out that there is nothing as outrageous in GT to make me think "hmm did they just change writers in GT?" ..... The change didn't make me think "Oh noes GT story line is horrible compared to the AWESOME story line that preceded!"

3. Apparently some were able to somehow differentiate the subtle changes in writing style when Toriyama stopped being involved in DB. Which is surprising to me cause the story line isn't the factor that comes through in DB but the incredible fights. Unless I somehow missed DB's remarkably cunning story line

4. I brought up the first 80 Eps of DB which I strongly believe were Toriyama's work to make a point, and that point is, if people were able to watch that whole thing (80 eps of pure Toriyama) which started DB and were still going by the time Z started out, it is unbelievable that they would drop Z because of a Garlic Jr arc or GT because somehow all of the dragon balls are now scattered throughout the universe.

Point in case, Toriyama's work is not that remarkably better than the rest of the work that follows so being outraged by some booboos in Z or GT is kinda funny really...

SO as you see you can't have it both ways... if Toriyamas work is so highly regarded and yet you say DB is, and I quote: "Subpar" then isn't that a clear contradiction? Off course it is! .... I rest my case
Seriously?

I'm not going to continue this discussion since clearly you are unable to understand that other people consider the fillers in the several dragonball seasons so bad that they skip them.

And btw I actually didn't notice that you consider the first 80 eps of DragonBall bad because actually I've re-watched them recently and while it was different I never did consider them bad (even though I was never that big of a fan of the original DragonBall mostly for the humor style that changes quite a bit when going into DBz).

And I'm not going to bother to argue anymore when you clearly have no intention of even looking at the storylines in dragonball or their quality. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it can't be well or poorly made.
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:02   Link #2244
MushroomSamba
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I sorta forgot what a bitch Bulma could be at times. Goku's life is hanging by the thread? Gohan needs to deliver important news to his dying father? Bah, petty matters! What's important is that Bulma gets a pitstop at her place first!
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:08   Link #2245
LuckyCat
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So do you guys think Bulma will receive a fax about a certain malfunctioning capsule corporation device next episode?
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:28   Link #2246
Blaat
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Originally Posted by Shiosai View Post
So do you guys think Bulma will receive a fax about a certain malfunctioning capsule corporation device next episode?
It wasn't in the preview ergo no.
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Old 2010-07-20, 15:19   Link #2247
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
Seriously?

I'm not going to continue this discussion since clearly you are unable to understand that other people consider the fillers in the several dragonball seasons so bad that they skip them.

And btw I actually didn't notice that you consider the first 80 eps of DragonBall bad because actually I've re-watched them recently and while it was different I never did consider them bad (even though I was never that big of a fan of the original DragonBall mostly for the humor style that changes quite a bit when going into DBz).

And I'm not going to bother to argue anymore when you clearly have no intention of even looking at the storylines in dragonball or their quality. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it can't be well or poorly made.
Really?

The discussion started because of a Toriyama v non Toriyama work since people started saying that GT was all crap so it didn't compare to prior work and yet here you come arguing exclusively about fillers which is something takes the original discussion completely out of context and I am somehow to take your argument in consideration?

Even after breaking it down you didn't get the point of the original argument.. (can't do much for you in that case)

*Sight*, I see why you wouldn't want to keep this argument cause after all is absolutely unrelated to the topic that started the discussion, its kinda like if I was talking about Food and you somehow talk about cars .... those are 2 completely different things

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-07-20 at 15:39.
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Old 2010-07-20, 19:35   Link #2248
ultramojones
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Wow, Chi-Chi actually cares about Goku
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Old 2010-07-20, 21:02   Link #2249
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Really?

The discussion started because of a Toriyama v non Toriyama work since people started saying that GT was all crap so it didn't compare to prior work and yet here you come arguing exclusively about fillers which is something takes the original discussion completely out of context and I am somehow to take your argument in consideration?

Even after breaking it down you didn't get the point of the original argument.. (can't do much for you in that case)

*Sight*, I see why you wouldn't want to keep this argument cause after all is absolutely unrelated to the topic that started the discussion, its kinda like if I was talking about Food and you somehow talk about cars .... those are 2 completely different things
No, fillers are completely relevant. The same people that made the fillers made GT, and originally you had asked if GT would be included in Kai and someone replied saying something to the effect of GT is one big filler which pretty much is true, none of it is canon, Toriyama didn't write it, it was just a cash cow. DB and DBZ might not be perfect but something differentiated them, and that is fun storylines/battles which GT and most DB-DBZ fillers lacked, which makes sense given it is the same production team.
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Old 2010-07-20, 21:08   Link #2250
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
No, fillers are completely relevant. The same people that made the fillers made GT, and originally you had asked if GT would be included in Kai and someone replied saying something to the effect of GT is one big filler which pretty much is true, none of it is canon, Toriyama didn't write it, it was just a cash cow. DB and DBZ might not be perfect but something differentiated them, and that is fun storylines/battles which GT and most DB-DBZ fillers lacked, which makes sense given it is the same production team.
Exactly. Fillers and GT are regarded as garbage because there are plenty of inconsistencies (with respect to Toriyama's work, of course) and nonsensical things that occur in them. Someone who actually pays attention BOTH the story and fights would immediately notice the differences.
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Old 2010-07-20, 22:29   Link #2251
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
No, fillers are completely relevant. The same people that made the fillers made GT, and originally you had asked if GT would be included in Kai and someone replied saying something to the effect of GT is one big filler which pretty much is true, none of it is canon, Toriyama didn't write it, it was just a cash cow. DB and DBZ might not be perfect but something differentiated them, and that is fun storylines/battles which GT and most DB-DBZ fillers lacked, which makes sense given it is the same production team.
OK now that you've brought up Toriyama and GT we are back on track, that was the original discussion. I didn't start a discussion exclusively about fillers which is why I said the stuff above my post was irrelevant.

It is in fact true that when I asked about Kai including GT someone said "GT wall all crap" ...not the fillers in GT but GT as a whole which is something I disagreed with because the fights in GT were just as amusing as the fights that preceded (talking about the super saying 4 stuff)

Having DB at a universal scale (GT) didn't bother me in the least and didn't make me question as to whether or not the writers had changed because the prior story line was just as outrageous... I mean sayins traveling through the galaxy? Frieza blowing up planets? and when the dragon balls gets scattered through the galaxy that part becomes a no-go?

It is a fact that DB went overboard with the ep count because it was a cash cow from start to finish... I believe even today that thing is still bringing in residual income for the companies involved.

But as I said before, what drew me to DB years back was their outrageously funny battles, not the story line which was basically one big AHHHH from DB to DBGT, that fact remained unchanged. For a cunning story line I would have gone to death note/monster or City Hunter which started around the same time DB was airing.

The story line in DB is linear and simple, is one strong dude after another and one fighter that keeps getting stronger and stronger.... no surprise there! (unless I missed something) the outrageous battles is what made this series what is today.

The point is that Toriyama's story was not of such high quality that it was downgraded with GT because the progression continued... one strong enemy after another, one power up after another

Now lets see... could you guys single out the points where GT just completely destroyed Toriyama's great work? I am not asking this in a sarcastic way or anything .. . I am just wondering what are the parts that u guys consider an absolute destruction of the story line? Or what parts were so outrageous they shouldn't have been in the already outrageous Dragon ball series?
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Old 2010-07-20, 22:40   Link #2252
MushroomSamba
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We get it. You can't tell the difference. That's nice.
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Old 2010-07-20, 23:03   Link #2253
Mr. DJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Now lets see... could you guys single out the points where GT just completely destroyed Toriyama's great work? I am not asking this in a sarcastic way or anything .. . I am just wondering what are the parts that u guys consider an absolute destruction of the story line? Or what parts were so outrageous they shouldn't have been in the already outrageous Dragon ball series?
Now...I wouldn't say it destroyed it...but I was annoyed that Gohan was pretty much the biggest contradiction in GT. After his Mystic Training in Z, we were fed that Gohan would always be at full power and wouldn't be able to turn into a Super Saiyan anymore, since it would be a downgrade from his current power. I never got to read the DB/Z Manga, so feel free to correct me if Elder Kai's explanation in the anime was pure filler and not included in the manga.

This is just me personally, Trunks...he was my favorite character for a while, at the end of DBZ, he pretty much looked how he did in the future...then we go to GT...wtf happened!? and Pan was just a all around terrible character...I wish they went with Goten instead, we would of had some fusion fights during those craptastic space adventures...
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Old 2010-07-20, 23:37   Link #2254
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Now lets see... could you guys single out the points where GT just completely destroyed Toriyama's great work? I am not asking this in a sarcastic way or anything .. . I am just wondering what are the parts that u guys consider an absolute destruction of the story line? Or what parts were so outrageous they shouldn't have been in the already outrageous Dragon ball series?
Here's two examples, and this will be the last I say on this topic since further explanation isn't necessary.

SSJ4 Goku wasn't able to harm Super 17 at all, and yet when he reverts back into a kid (in his base form, which is exponentially weaker) he defeats Super 17. That makes absolutely no sense.

Trunks had to go SSJ just to lift up a big rock over his head. That is retarded seeing as how at the very beginning of Dragon Ball, Goku as a kid was able to lift up cars and several other heavy objects with little difficulty.
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Old 2010-07-21, 01:11   Link #2255
CuXe
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Originally Posted by DjTrizz View Post
Now...I wouldn't say it destroyed it...but I was annoyed that Gohan was pretty much the biggest contradiction in GT. After his Mystic Training in Z, we were fed that Gohan would always be at full power and wouldn't be able to turn into a Super Saiyan anymore, since it would be a downgrade from his current power. I never got to read the DB/Z Manga, so feel free to correct me if Elder Kai's explanation in the anime was pure filler and not included in the manga.

This is just me personally, Trunks...he was my favorite character for a while, at the end of DBZ, he pretty much looked how he did in the future...then we go to GT...wtf happened!? and Pan was just a all around terrible character...I wish they went with Goten instead, we would of had some fusion fights during those craptastic space adventures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Here's two examples, and this will be the last I say on this topic since further explanation isn't necessary.

SSJ4 Goku wasn't able to harm Super 17 at all, and yet when he reverts back into a kid (in his base form, which is exponentially weaker) he defeats Super 17. That makes absolutely no sense.

Trunks had to go SSJ just to lift up a big rock over his head. That is retarded seeing as how at the very beginning of Dragon Ball, Goku as a kid was able to lift up cars and several other heavy objects with little difficulty.
OK NOW I SEE what *some* of you guys were referring to.... you guys were for the most part referring to inconsistencies on the power levels and art (in the case of Trunks getting downsized). I can totally understand that and I certainly agree! So the issue wasn't on the progression of the main story (one strong guy after another and one power up after another) ... the issue arises with the power inconsistencies.

Here is a good list which shows a good number of inconsistencies and interestingly enough DB and DBZ seem to have had a good portion of them:

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Lis...nconsistencies

I know those deviations are annoying but IMO aren't enough to call the whole thing trash.

Look at it this way..... almost 20 years later we still see horrible inconsistencies even in series where only ONE main writer/manga artist is involved and manages the whole thing.... .*cough cough*... Kubo Tite > BLEACH!
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Old 2010-07-21, 12:52   Link #2256
ChainLegacy
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The story matters too. GT (along with DB and DBZ fillers) added a bunch of plot holes. Admittedly Toriyama's original manga wasn't always logical, but it was consistent. The animated filler episodes + GT have too many of these, there were whole sections where Goku and Trunks were portrayed as weak as they traveled across the Galaxy and those stories were especially boring... reminiscent of an even further dragged out filler arc when Krillin, Gohan and Bulma were traveling to Namek in old DBZ. Like when Goku and Trunks are afraid of the giants on the planets in GT, on the spaceship filler Gohan and Krillin are portrayed are intimidated by space pirates, get tricked by the 'fake' Namekians (that one was especially bad) and again are shown to be afraid of a giant creature solely because of its size, completely inconsistent with the earlier portrayal of Piccolo discovering large size to be obsolete back in Dragon Ball. Wow, upon examination it appears GT actually took crappy filler from DBZ and fleshed it out some more.

Then again, the Baby villain really wasn't unique at all, he was just an amalgamation of past filler/movie villains without anything new to offer. Super 17 was, what exactly? A complete rip off of a villain that already appeared, with Dr. Gero dying AGAIN. Hell, GT was so unoriginal they opened "Hell" to let all of the old villains out! You say DB was just one strong guy after another, but I disagree, I'm not saying it has a spectacularly deep plot but the original storyline is FUN it isn't boring like the GT/fillers. All of the villains were unique in some way, it started with an army, then rival martial artists, then the "demon king", then Goku's long lost alien race, then a galactic tyrant, followed by cyborgs/robots, then a wizard and his creation. All of these villains were different in some way, there were unique storylines that for the most part made sense with one another. GT doesn't offer this, nor do anime fillers. Now personally, I'm not some canon nazi because I've enjoyed some anime original endings before, but in the case of Dragonball the staff should have just stuck to Toriyama's original work, imperfect but vastly superior to what they produced.
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Old 2010-07-22, 01:43   Link #2257
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
The story matters too. GT (along with DB and DBZ fillers) added a bunch of plot holes. Admittedly Toriyama's original manga wasn't always logical, but it was consistent. The animated filler episodes + GT have too many of these, there were whole sections where Goku and Trunks were portrayed as weak as they traveled across the Galaxy and those stories were especially boring... reminiscent of an even further dragged out filler arc when Krillin, Gohan and Bulma were traveling to Namek in old DBZ. Like when Goku and Trunks are afraid of the giants on the planets in GT, on the spaceship filler Gohan and Krillin are portrayed are intimidated by space pirates, get tricked by the 'fake' Namekians (that one was especially bad) and again are shown to be afraid of a giant creature solely because of its size, completely inconsistent with the earlier portrayal of Piccolo discovering large size to be obsolete back in Dragon Ball. Wow, upon examination it appears GT actually took crappy filler from DBZ and fleshed it out some more.

Then again, the Baby villain really wasn't unique at all, he was just an amalgamation of past filler/movie villains without anything new to offer. Super 17 was, what exactly? A complete rip off of a villain that already appeared, with Dr. Gero dying AGAIN. Hell, GT was so unoriginal they opened "Hell" to let all of the old villains out! You say DB was just one strong guy after another, but I disagree, I'm not saying it has a spectacularly deep plot but the original storyline is FUN it isn't boring like the GT/fillers. All of the villains were unique in some way, it started with an army, then rival martial artists, then the "demon king", then Goku's long lost alien race, then a galactic tyrant, followed by cyborgs/robots, then a wizard and his creation. All of these villains were different in some way, there were unique storylines that for the most part made sense with one another. GT doesn't offer this, nor do anime fillers. Now personally, I'm not some canon nazi because I've enjoyed some anime original endings before, but in the case of Dragonball the staff should have just stuck to Toriyama's original work, imperfect but vastly superior to what they produced.
^ THIS is what I was looking for, a well articulated and thought out response I don't remember who said "GT is crap" while implying that everyone knew that was a fact, period. < That train of thought leaves no room for discussion or to question the reasoning behind such statement.

At any rate I see what you r saying, basically plot holes and inconsistencies built all throughout DB and DBZ got magnified when the guys who did GT took those inconsistencies to create filler portions in GT. I couldn't agree more with that statement, that is also the reason why I wouldn't rate DB highly as a whole but the battles that follow each filler, whether they'd be recycled or not were amusing so it kinda levels out to a watchable/bearable level.
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Old 2010-07-22, 09:23   Link #2258
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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^ Essentially, so many things about GT didn't make sense in the realm of the DB universe. That, in addition to the lack of creativity like ChainLegacy mentioned, made it an absolute failure.
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Old 2010-07-23, 15:41   Link #2259
LuckyCat
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Oh, no DBKai this week for those interested. Apparently there is some sort of yearly parade that Fuji TV covers during Kai's slot.

With the World Cup break, that's twice this month fans have been denied their weekly kamehameha.
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Old 2010-07-23, 15:46   Link #2260
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^Yeah i heard about there being no One Piece, so Kai was sure to follow.
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