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Old 2010-02-01, 18:55   Link #1521
Noe
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Vegeta's speech was truly great. Can't wait to see more of this explosive fight.
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Old 2010-02-01, 19:18   Link #1522
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
And if that's how it's gonna be, then hey Piccolo was also foolish for asking to be ressurected thinking he could beat Freeza. If he hadn't ran into Nail on the way, he would've been utterly destroyed even by 2nd form Freeza. Vegeta was also foolish for allowing Cell to absorb 18. Goku was also foolish not to kill Majin Buu when he could have done so as SSJ3. Etc etc etc. It's silly to only condemn Future Trunks for mistakes, when pretty much every fighter has had at least one.
In the cases of Piccolo and Vegeta, those foolish decisions were merely due to their egos. Goku didn't finish off Majin Buu because it wasn't in his place to do so. He wanted to let the kids (Goten and Trunks) protect the earth, for he felt that was now their responsibility.

From a fighter's perspective, Trunks' mistake was inexcusable. It's common sense that great power is of no use if you can't catch your enemy. Everyone understood this, except for Trunks. You see, hypothetically speaking here, if everyone had to fight each other with equal power levels, Trunks definitely would not be the victor because he doesn't even know the basic principles on what makes someone a great fighter.

I've never appreciated the fact that excellent fighters like Master Roshi, Tien, Krillin, and eventually Piccolo, get stepped on in favor of incompetent fighters like Gohan and Trunks taking their places. Yeah, Trunks doesn't mess around at all, but his poor methodical approach to fighting really detracts from that, to me at least.
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Old 2010-02-01, 19:53   Link #1523
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
In the cases of Piccolo and Vegeta, those foolish decisions were merely due to their egos. Goku didn't finish off Majin Buu because it wasn't in his place to do so. He wanted to let the kids (Goten and Trunks) protect the earth, for he felt that was now their responsibility.

From a fighter's perspective, Trunks' mistake was inexcusable. It's common sense that great power is of no use if you can't catch your enemy. Everyone understood this, except for Trunks. You see, hypothetically speaking here, if everyone had to fight each other with equal power levels, Trunks definitely would not be the victor because he doesn't even know the basic principles on what makes someone a great fighter.

I've never appreciated the fact that excellent fighters like Master Roshi, Tien, Krillin, and eventually Piccolo, get stepped on in favor of incompetent fighters like Gohan and Trunks taking their places. Yeah, Trunks doesn't mess around at all, but his poor methodical approach to fighting really detracts from that, to me at least.
"Merely due to their egos"? And why would a mistake caused by egos be any less inexcusable than one caused by inexperience? That's absolutely ridiculous. At least in Trunks' case he tried what he thought was the best way to help and protect everyone, wrong though it might have been. Whereas Piccolo and especially Vegeta didn't give a crap about anyone else and simply wanted to appease their own egos. They were fighting only for themselves while Trunks was fighting for everyone else with the best of intentions. And they all made mistakes but only Trunks is to blame? Sorry but that's just crap.

Same for Goku. You don't need to tell why he did what he did, I'm well aware of it, but it doesn't change the fact that it was a mistake. Goku himself admits he regrets it later on. He wanted to let the kids protect the Earth? Well Earth got freaking blown up because of that. He was overconfident in the power of his own and understimated the enemy. That's a clear mistake.

You're just seeing one side of the picture and conveniently excusing your favorites' mistakes when they are to blame just as much or even more than Trunks, since like you said Trunks is inexperienced while the other three are veteran fighters who still make dumb mistakes for even dumber reasons.

(I'll agree that Gohan is a moron though. Him refusing to finish off Perfect Cell when he had the chance was probably the most annoying moment in the series for me)
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Old 2010-02-01, 20:57   Link #1524
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
"Merely due to their egos"? And why would a mistake caused by egos be any less inexcusable than one caused by inexperience? That's absolutely ridiculous. At least in Trunks' case he tried what he thought was the best way to help and protect everyone, wrong though it might have been. Whereas Piccolo and especially Vegeta didn't give a crap about anyone else and simply wanted to appease their own egos. They were fighting only for themselves while Trunks was fighting for everyone else with the best of intentions. And they all made mistakes but only Trunks is to blame? Sorry but that's just crap.
In Piccolo's defense, he didn't make a mistake. His intentions were to fight Freeza for the pride of his namekian race. He wanted to avenge their deaths by making Freeza pay. And no one knew exactly how powerful Freeza truly was, but you can't expect Piccolo to stand idly by after the horrible events that have taken place on his home planet. He had an obligation to fulfill, and whether or not he was strong enough to carry it out was up to fate. This is not a mistake in the least bit.

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Same for Goku. You don't need to tell why he did what he did, I'm well aware of it, but it doesn't change the fact that it was a mistake. Goku himself admits he regrets it later on. He wanted to let the kids protect the Earth? Well Earth got freaking blown up because of that. He was overconfident in the power of his own and understimated the enemy. That's a clear mistake.
I acknowledge this to be true. As a matter of fact, I did not like Goku's character in the Buu saga. I always believed that he was talking out of his ass when he claimed that he could have beaten the Fat Buu, since he had absolutely no idea what Buu was fully capable of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
You're just seeing one side of the picture and conveniently excusing your favorites' mistakes when they are to blame just as much or even more than Trunks, since like you said Trunks is inexperienced while the other three are veteran fighters who still make dumb mistakes for even dumber reasons.
Well, I already explained my case for Piccolo, and you should understand now that was not a mistake. As for Vegeta, yeah...there's really no arguing that he's made plenty of mistakes .

Don't get me wrong. I know that Trunks doesn't mess around at all. It's just that I was always bothered by the fact that only he didn't understand something so simple.
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Old 2010-02-01, 21:19   Link #1525
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Piccolo's case isn't nearly as bad as Goku's or Vegeta's, true, but he still made Gohan and Kuririn waste two dragon ball wishes on him, all the while pretty much promising to take care of Freeza, when he had no idea what he was talking about even after being warned by Kaio. Clear case of overconfidence and understimating there as well, and thus I consider it a mistake.

And I can fully understand you being bothered by Trunks' stupid move, what bugs me is you singling him out and having double standards because as we've established he's not the only who screws up. And in my view, a screw up caused by inexperience is a lot more forgivable than one caused by overconfidence and oversized egos.
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Old 2010-02-01, 21:56   Link #1526
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Piccolo's case isn't nearly as bad as Goku's or Vegeta's, true, but he still made Gohan and Kuririn waste two dragon ball wishes on him, all the while pretty much promising to take care of Freeza, when he had no idea what he was talking about even after being warned by Kaio. Clear case of overconfidence and understimating there as well, and thus I consider it a mistake.
Hold up, how is it a mistake for Piccolo to wish himself back? When the revival of Piccolo would bring back Kami (as well as the Earth's dragonballs.) Piccolo's fight with Freeza also saved the lives of Gohan and Krillin (along with Vegeta's but he's still somewhat of an enemy at this point.) I still respect Piccolo for at least taking a risk in fighting Freeza rather than sitting back and watching his friends die.
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Old 2010-02-02, 01:09   Link #1527
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I guess him being revived was important because of Kami, but regarding the situation on Namek they could've just wished for Goku to get healed instantly and Piccolo's presence would've been uneccessary. And Dende and Vegeta wouldn't have had to die.
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Old 2010-02-02, 01:31   Link #1528
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Damn good episode. Vegeta really laid it all out.
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Old 2010-02-02, 02:45   Link #1529
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
I guess him being revived was important because of Kami, but regarding the situation on Namek they could've just wished for Goku to get healed instantly and Piccolo's presence would've been uneccessary. And Dende and Vegeta wouldn't have had to die.
Wrong. Piccolo was a pivotal character throughout the whole Freeza battle. Without him, the following wouldn't be possible:

1) Buying Goku some time to fully charge up his spirit bomb.

2) Kami and Mr. Popo using earth's dragon balls to restore the lives of those who were killed by Freeza and his minions. This brought Guru back to life, who was crucial to King Kai's plan being feasible.

3) Dende using the last wish with namek's dragon balls to transport everyone except for Goku and Freeza to the planet earth.

You cannot deny Piccolo's importance. He played a huge role in the Freeza arc.

And who knows how things would have played out if they just wished for Goku's health to be fully restored? No one can say for sure, since it's all speculation.
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Old 2010-02-02, 05:23   Link #1530
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Hirokawa Ryo certainly does deserve a round of applause after that performance. So much raw emotion in his voice during his speech. So so good. Also loved the new piano piece used during King Kai's talk on Vegeta's past.

Well next week it begins. Gonna be interesting to see how much content they fit in before we see the shining moment.
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Old 2010-02-02, 06:22   Link #1531
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I thought the music was good too, just the opera voice that kinda ruined it a bit for me X(
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Old 2010-02-02, 12:54   Link #1532
DeX-kun
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I thought the music was good too, just the opera voice that kinda ruined it a bit for me X(
I don't know, I actually really like those opera voices They seem to add to the feeling of despair. Something about it that really drives it home.
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Old 2010-02-02, 13:02   Link #1533
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A well worked key moment I felt.
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Old 2010-02-02, 13:13   Link #1534
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
I thought the music was good too, just the opera voice that kinda ruined it a bit for me X(
Like DeX-kun, i believe it added quite a bit to the scene, plus i really like that piece. Though i guess it does all come down to what kind of music you like at the end of the day.
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Old 2010-02-02, 13:39   Link #1535
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Like DeX-kun, i believe it added quite a bit to the scene, plus i really like that piece. Though i guess it does all come down to what kind of music you like at the end of the day.
Well not necessarily I mean, I don't like listening to opera but when it is used in a scene such as this, it works very well
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Old 2010-02-02, 14:28   Link #1536
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It was only a matter of time...
FUNimation has officially licensed DBK.
Hopefully, they'll take this chance to give us a more faithful dub.
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Old 2010-02-02, 14:39   Link #1537
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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It was only a matter of time...
FUNimation has officially licensed DBK.
Hopefully, they'll take this chance to give us a more faithful dub.
Awesome news. Thanks for the notification .

Considering that Funi has consistently brought out excellent dubs for the past few years, they now have no reason to mess up Dragon Ball Kai.
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Old 2010-02-02, 16:40   Link #1538
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Believe it or not, a lot of that fight is actually filler. In the manga, it was a lot shorter.
I have to say that was a surprise to hear about. But I'll say that was damn good filler to watch . Thought it was good in that case to spread it out since it just hits home all the more how bad things could get for Piccolo who would get tired eventually.

While there are great moments in this Freeza arc I really hope to see the Android/Cell Saga again. That just had some amazing moments and it was just nice to see Gohan reach the potential that was hinted at so many times.
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Old 2010-02-02, 17:05   Link #1539
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Old 2010-02-02, 17:33   Link #1540
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Wrong. Piccolo was a pivotal character throughout the whole Freeza battle. Without him, the following wouldn't be possible:

1) Buying Goku some time to fully charge up his spirit bomb.

2) Kami and Mr. Popo using earth's dragon balls to restore the lives of those who were killed by Freeza and his minions. This brought Guru back to life, who was crucial to King Kai's plan being feasible.

3) Dende using the last wish with namek's dragon balls to transport everyone except for Goku and Freeza to the planet earth.

You cannot deny Piccolo's importance. He played a huge role in the Freeza arc.

And who knows how things would have played out if they just wished for Goku's health to be fully restored? No one can say for sure, since it's all speculation.
If they had used the first wish to revive Piccolo and the second one to heal Goku the result would've been the same. Vegeta could've bought time for Goku's Spirit Bomb instead, since he'd still be alive that way.

But whatever, like you said at the end of the day it's all speculation. My point was that Piccolo was overconfident to think he could defeat Freeza and I don't think anyone's going to deny that. Piccolo was damn lucky he ran into Nail on the way, or he would've been utterly defeated.
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