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Old 2010-05-09, 09:50   Link #1901
LuckyCat
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There was an interesting bit of new music during Trunks' fight, which I hope we get more of for the other battles.

Also, I totally did not expect this episode to top the original since it was one of the few bits that was done so well the first time around.
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Old 2010-05-09, 11:34   Link #1902
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Shiosai View Post
There was an interesting bit of new music during Trunks' fight, which I hope we get more of for the other battles.

Also, I totally did not expect this episode to top the original since it was one of the few bits that was done so well the first time around.
I couldn't agree more with you here. Yeah, the track that played during Trunks' transformation wasn't as memorable as Battle Point Unlimited, but the rest of the music more than made up for that. Excellent work by Kenji Yamamoto.
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Old 2010-05-09, 13:14   Link #1903
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So, Kai is supposed to be Z minus the fillers.
But...
1) It still left in any fillers that could not be removed without reanimating some scenes. Lazy bums!
2) Not all fillers were bad
3) Same animation
4) New BMG which is not always better that the original

So overall it is, what, 10% better than Z?
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Old 2010-05-09, 13:53   Link #1904
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
So, Kai is supposed to be Z minus the fillers.
But...
1) It still left in any fillers that could not be removed without reanimating some scenes. Lazy bums!
2) Not all fillers were bad
3) Same animation
4) New BMG which is not always better that the original

So overall it is, what, 10% better than Z?
1) Those fillers are far and in between, and with the exception of Ginyu taking over Bulma and Gohan coming back to fight 100% Freeza, they're mostly harmless. And even those two were dealt with as quickly as possible.

2) The vast majority are. They not only create plotholes but make the show feel immensely dragged out. Kai's pacing is a hundred times more enjoyable than Z's.

3) In widescreen and some frames are recolored and whatnot.

4) Yeah.
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Old 2010-05-09, 19:06   Link #1905
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Wow that was pretty fast. Trunks took care of the grunts, Freeza, and King Cold in one episode. Definitely different from Goku in that he didn't waste any time on mercy. Though considering his background that kind of approach is pretty understandable.
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Old 2010-05-09, 19:24   Link #1906
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Wow that was pretty fast. Trunks took care of the grunts, Freeza, and King Cold in one episode. Definitely different from Goku in that he didn't waste any time on mercy. Though considering his background that kind of approach is pretty understandable.
You know, I've always wondered how well Freeza would have done against Trunks if he had used 100% of his power. We know that with his cybernetic enhancements he was superior to his purely organic form, and Goku had a lot of trouble against Freeza on Namek until his power started diminishing. So it's questionable whether Trunks could have beaten a cybernetic Freeza at 100%.
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Old 2010-05-09, 21:19   Link #1907
Freerunner
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Blackbeard D. Kuma, you're missing the point -

Goku on Namek expirienced the SSJ for the first time, in his life. he didnt have a clue how much could he generate, and what the hell super sayajin even is.

Trunks on the other side, was a:

1. Hybrid (easier to achieve SSJ cause of the human emotions)

2. constantly in fear, but pure hearted, since he was born. that what triggered goku - times 5.

3. allready a super sayajin.

as i remember, directly from the manga, the talk that is about to take place in episode 57, goes something like this:

Trunks: can you transform whenever you want ?

Goku: at first no, but when i got the hang of it, yeah.

Trunks: could you defeat Freeza and Cold ?

Goku: ***loosely interpreted *** - I am chuck norris of sayajins. 'fcourse i could.

which leads us to believe that once a super sayajin transforms several times, not only he has enough to beat freeza & family, but he kicks some serious arse.

proof of that is the difference in SSJ first form, when goku fighting freeza, and when Goku confronts Cell - same form, but about 10 times stronger.
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Old 2010-05-09, 22:29   Link #1908
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Just watched 56. I didn't mind Goku's SSJ transformation scene, but man Trunks'... It was my favorite one in the original DBZ, but here... I'm sorry to say but they really ruined it for me. I wasn't expecting the BGM to top BPU obviously, but still, the song they picked didn't even fit the scene if you ask me. And while that was disappointing, the worst part was still the rushedness of it all. Yes, I know it's quick in the manga too but these are the kind of scenes that the anime can take advantage of as a medium with sound and movement and whatnot. And here they just blitzed through it, drastically reducing the frames where Trunks is making his epic hot-blooded scream, making Takeshi Kusao's performance seem completely half-assed in comparison to the original. I mean his screaming in the original gave me goosebumps everytime I watched it. For those who haven't seen it, here it is.

So yeah. Sorry for the overlong whiny rant, but I had to get that off my chest. >_>

Rest of the episode was as awesome as expected, thankfully, and actually had some pretty good music as mentioned. Particularly when Trunks showed up unharmed after Freeza's first attack.

But man, if there's one episode where you can notice that they "changed episode" (DBZ-wise) halfway, it's this one. The part where Trunks first cuts Freeze is so high budget with amazing art, but then the conclusion of it... god it looks BAD. But oh well, not Kai's fault there.
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Old 2010-05-09, 22:31   Link #1909
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Originally Posted by Freerunner View Post
which leads us to believe that once a super sayajin transforms several times, not only he has enough to beat freeza & family, but he kicks some serious arse.

proof of that is the difference in SSJ first form, when goku fighting freeza, and when Goku confronts Cell - same form, but about 10 times stronger.
It's not about the number of times one transforms, it's about their power level. The Super Saiyan form merely multiplies that by a great deal. Against Cell, Goku had at least 5 more years of training than he did against Frieza.

Trunks, on the other hand, wasn't even a match for non-SSJ Gohan while he was SSJ (in the manga, anyway). It wasn't until he trained for about 5 years after that in which he could dice Frieza up, and even then Frieza was at 50% power, maximum.
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Old 2010-05-09, 22:45   Link #1910
Freerunner
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i didnt say that number of transformations counts. i said that first time transform , and a bit later, when you get used to it makes you a bit more powerful

oh, and - WHEN is "kokoro no hane" going to be released as full ? i so wanna hear it!
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Old 2010-05-09, 23:18   Link #1911
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
You know, I've always wondered how well Freeza would have done against Trunks if he had used 100% of his power. We know that with his cybernetic enhancements he was superior to his purely organic form, and Goku had a lot of trouble against Freeza on Namek until his power started diminishing. So it's questionable whether Trunks could have beaten a cybernetic Freeza at 100%.
Goku only had trouble in the anime. From what I recall, Goku held back just so Frieza knew he had been completely and utterly dominated. In addition to his diminishing power level, Frieza's cap was about 12 million (or was it 120... I always forget how many digits it is at this point), and Goku's was 15 million (or 150, whatever).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freerunner View Post
i didnt say that number of transformations counts. i said that first time transform , and a bit later, when you get used to it makes you a bit more powerful
You said that once a Super Saiyan transformed a few times they would be strong enough to beat Frieza, and then compared the "same form" of Goku vs Frieza to Goku vs Cell. It seems to imply transformation count rather than innate power level.
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Old 2010-05-09, 23:29   Link #1912
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
I wasn't expecting the BGM to top BPU obviously, but still, the song they picked didn't even fit the scene if you ask me.
I dunno, I liked their choice there. To me, the scene isn't really meant to be epic, but more of a creepy "can this really be happening" sort of moment. In that regard, I think the new music matches that mood perfectly. I do miss the scream though...

Anyway, I was thoroughly impressed with the episode. Bring on the 'droids!
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Old 2010-05-09, 23:37   Link #1913
Freya
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I'm watching episode 12 now and Vegeta said its over 9000. I thought that was a mistranslation or w/e.
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Old 2010-05-10, 01:02   Link #1914
Vegard Aune
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...Vegeta said its over 9000. I thought that was a mistranslation or w/e.
It is. He's supposed to say that it's over EIGHT thousand.
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Old 2010-05-10, 01:27   Link #1915
Freya
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Originally Posted by Vegard Aune View Post
It is. He's supposed to say that it's over EIGHT thousand.
Wth? So the translation got it wrong again or something? Eh oh well.

Wish Goku and everyone could have kept their tails. Would have been epic.
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Old 2010-05-10, 01:29   Link #1916
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If the official numbers are right, cyborg Frieza is 12.5m in power and his father is 13m. And Goku while fighting him on Namek was at 15m while Trunks fighting on Earth was originally 14m.
Funny what 1/14th more power can do, even against two enemies with a sum of almost double your power.

Same thing about Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gohan. 35m vs 36m. Looks like the numbers are geometrical and not going by sum.
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Old 2010-05-10, 01:51   Link #1917
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
If the official numbers are right, cyborg Frieza is 12.5m in power and his father is 13m. And Goku while fighting him on Namek was at 15m while Trunks fighting on Earth was originally 14m.
Funny what 1/14th more power can do, even against two enemies with a sum of almost double your power.

Same thing about Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gohan. 35m vs 36m. Looks like the numbers are geometrical and not going by sum.
Uh, what "official" numbers are you talking about here? Power levels stopped being said after Namek. In the series or the Daizenshuu.
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Old 2010-05-10, 02:55   Link #1918
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Really? I had this guide on Anime Insider which claimed to be official by Toriyama himself.
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Old 2010-05-10, 03:07   Link #1919
Freya
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Yeah power levels got redundant after the people realized their scouters would just blow up.
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Old 2010-05-10, 03:24   Link #1920
Kazu-kun
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Really? I had this guide on Anime Insider which claimed to be official by Toriyama himself.
I think the Daizenshuu 7 is the only official word on power levels, and only goes up to namek saga. This guide states that 100% Frieza is 120m, and SSJ Goku is 150m.
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