[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 347 Discussion

[Cub-Sama]

Spoiler for Off topic:

Geta it's not only because the character is badass it is because a lot of the heros are just stupid and or amazingly oblivious to obvious, such as Naruto who can learn so many techniques decides to ignore that and focus on using the same rasengan over and over again. Ichigo can range between being badass and being a complete retard so I don't love him and I don't hate him.

But psychotic geniuses, are good characters in my opinion (Shirosaki, Lelouch, Sephiroth, Dr.Stein), same with skeptic comic relief characters (Sokka from Avatar) and some heros that are comedic, skeptic and carefree are good characters in my opinion (Bunshichi from Tenjou Tenge, Ikki from Air Gear). They just seem more real than stupid/emo characters in my opinion.

Geta there will be shit-storm only if Ichigo wins without a) power-up b) Help c) An epihany which makes him stronger. If none of these are present then expect a shit-storm, because they only happen when a win seems to be illogical or h4x.

Spoiler for manga:

Like Sasuke beating Itachi because of a sickness that none of us knew existed.

[ILikeSquiReLz]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Spoiler for manga:

Like Sasuke beating Itachi because of a sickness that none of us knew existed.

Spoiler:

that's not the reason why he won

IMO- Ulqui is Vasto, he will wreck havoc in HM. He will anounce he is Vasto and with a cliff hanger Kubo will switch to KT. Kubo is going to build up the fight in KT, what better way than Ulqui anouncing the weakest of the top 4 is Vasto.

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

More like he needs to give the fangirls more, all of them were waiting out Kubo's house last week begging for more (Does that sound more wrong than I thought?)

Bitter much? I think that we people start insulting me instead of just showing me where I was wrong. Why am I a fangirl? Who said I was a even a FANGIRL?! :stare:

Could it be I actually just COMPREHENDED it better than you? (been doing it all my life...) Negation is the key to verbal abuse.

Ichigo has seal. He wasn't at full power--he didn't even have a mask. Yet his level was greater. I put the fight in front of you--you can't say Ulquiorra was owning him in those shots.

Cub?...

Spoiler for You know what...:

Shut yo ass up!

You fought well. You survived my Bankai, why can't you leave it at that?

*mutters* does this mofo know I will HURT him?!


(You have to know I am not serious.)

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Ulquiorra isn't transforming again because he isn't owning anyone it's because overkill is fun.

He isn't owning anyone. He can't. Ok how dumb it is for him to go to a Second or Complete release... On a guy he can just own? Why would he do that?

How dumb is that? Why would he feel the need to do that? *All Eyes*

Edit: NOOOOOOOO!

[Arachne]

Sorry I lost interest in Soul Eater when the focus on characters remained kids . And your point all these characters are good guys .

Honestly, your theory doesn’t seem wholly thought out, or at the very least, ignores a plethora of factors in favor of your world view.

I don't really care, but alright.

And Ichigo is....what? An oldman?

Exactly my point, if teens are mindless sheep and cheer for bad guys in order to feel badass. Why are good some of the most popular characters in the manga? Why do people cheer for them in a fight and not random thug #22?

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

DN is a horrid example other than its not classic shonen. More so can be classified as shojo in my books, with utter lack of females, just like its new avtaar Hitman Reborn . All characters are Grey not clear cut black and white .

Again, where is the link to this Shonen guideline? I'd like to see it myself. You claimed there was a "guidline" for badguys and I'd like to see it.

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

The problem doesn't lie with rooting cheering to certain subset of character . The problem lies with whining which follows when these guys dont win. And thats absurd simly for the reason its a story for Good vs Evil.

No, it’s called being pissed off because either a character you liked lost or died in a stupidly absurd fashion thanks to some h4x.

By your logic people would be nerd raging over every random hollow slain by Ichigo.

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by Sinta

I guess i'm behind on the times because as far as I can see Ulq is a bastard. Aizen is a narassitic sadist, and who even knows what gin is all about. Ulq has only used a cero and that little light sword? How is he anymore interesting? How is he any different then Byukaku? "I'm more powerful then you? Why do you fight me? Blah Blah Blah"

Most people view Aizen in a more 'positive' light. They see him sitting his 70s ass comfortably on his throne of bel-air, checking bitches out. Like Orihime. I am pretty sure he liked what he saw when he first saw her and was all like, "Dayum, dat one fine ass". How can I root against a man with good taste? I mean he's such an ambassador, welcoming her formally and then getting straight to business, wanting to see a demonstration of Inoue's power (in bed). Ichigo, on the other hand, is blind to a fine wine.

So...as you can see people have their random reasons.

Kakashi, you bring up a a good point. I think that you've hit on the head that this is more a battle of idealogy than anything. Ulq seems to be of the opinion that if you can't for sure win. That you should not even try, or something along those lines. Ichigo seems to be embodying the "human spirit" with this fight. Still makes me wonder how he's going to pull it off.

Aye, thank you. I agree, Ulq can't contemplate why Ichigo won't give up despite the overwhelming preponderance Ulq has shown so far. It doesn't make sense to him. But as he will learn, it's because Ichigo is fighting for a cause; his friends - and it doesn't matter if it's impossible - he'll either find a way or die trying. Ulq's blindness to this will probably be his undoing. I think Sabaku Kyu touched on that before.

Originally Posted by Arachne

Mostly because we live in a more free-thinking society than previous generations and people are less inclined to cheer the "good guys" because they are "good". A lot of people are turned off by Lelouch's narcissism and before I became a lulu fanatic so was I. I don’t see that as a bad thing either because he can be sickeningly narcissistic. Setsuna from G00 was also horribly boring because he had almost no semblance of a personality during season 1. Aizen, on the other hand, I don’t like because I just never connected with him as a character. Though I do like Ichigo in spite of his lack of fancy abilities.

I've noticed some anime try to completely corrupt their villains beyond redemption so to make them unlikeable, whereas some take a different approach, keeping them classy, yet fundamentally evil. The latter are more interesting because their motives are rarely clear-cut. Contemporary villains tend to fall under that category a lot.

[Arachne]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

Quite simply bad guys are more interesting because their motives are rarely clear-cut, contemporary villains especially.

Pretty much, in KuriSHIJUTSI(SP?) Joker, one of the villains of the circus arc, is a really awesome dude. And he's a sympathtic character as oppssed to Grell who wasn't in the least. Anime's always place thier own spin on a villain .

It's one of the reasons why I like this medium.

[Zu Ra]

Spoiler for offtopix:

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

But psychotic geniuses, are good characters in my opinion (Shirosaki, Lelouch, Sephiroth, Dr.Stein), same with skeptic comic relief characters (Sokka from Avatar) and some heros that are comedic, skeptic and carefree are good characters in my opinion (Bunshichi from Tenjou Tenge, Ikki from Air Gear). They just seem more real than stupid/emo characters in my opinion.

Those are Gray characters again on the side of good. As they are Gray character they can break the boundaries which good guys cant .Take Stein he was way cooler when he was introduced as Gray/bad character . Once he joined the forces of good he was neutered. I prefer old Stein to the new one ...

And CG is from Lulu point of view and Lulu is not a classic good guy in fiction . If Lulu was bounded by shonen good guys principles you think he could have done what he did and look cool .

Take Urahara he was way cooler when his objectives were unknown . Now he is boring as hell once its been decided he is a slave for SS

Geta there will be shit-storm only if Ichigo wins without a) power-up b) Help c) An epihany which makes him stronger. If none of these are present then expect a shit-storm, because they only happen when a win seems to be illogical or h4x.

Sorry I am not an Ichigo fan or an Ulqi fan . I am rooting for Ulqi knowing Ichigo will win . So yes if Ichigo wins I wont be amazed shocked about it.

I am going to over-appreciate KT's writing and say he will win convincingly. Lets assume Ichigo manages to win convincingly ...... you think he will be spared from fan onslaught .

[incorrupts]

" After he said that, Ulquiorra said it seemed he will seriously go on Ichigo"

Moar serious? Ouch, that is gonna hurt Ichigo. |DD; {for a while, cause duh, cliche end of fight will be cliche}

I am spazzing over Inoue's concern right now {anticipated but still, bones are bones <3} and maybe this will be featured somehow later? Like, maybe she will go upstairs and protect Kurosaki-kun's ass again? Though, played out by now.

Thanks again for the props Geta ~

[hakisak]

Yall' some hatin asses! damn...

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

DN is a horrid example other than its not classic shonen.

Huh?

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

More so can be classified as shojo in my books, with utter lack of females, just like its new avtaar Hitman Reborn . All characters are Grey not clear cut black and white .
The problem doesn't lie with rooting cheering to certain subset of character . The problem lies with whining which follows when these guys dont win. And thats absurd simply for the reason its a story for Good vs Evil

So? Useless details. The point is he was murderer that came with moralfagotry. He was truly a hypocrite and "evil". But I liked him despite that...


I wasn't clear in my post? huh? Sometimes bad guys are likable. I like Ulquiorra myself. I am just not blind and I don't only count the words of one character. Or just want to believe him because I like his character. I actually read THEN ENTIRE manga... (not just this chapter)

Ichigo is stronger. He just inexperienced. If that counts as testament of Mr. "I will prove it to you! " strength. Then I guess it must be all in one's perception of strength.

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Wait a few more weeks and observe yourself . There will be a shit-storm when Ichigo wins : D

Yeah I was going to say that...it is a lot of whining when he wins. Because they just don't like his character design.

I probably won't be here...almost sure of it. I may go on vacation. it hasn't been decided yet...


@Kakashi...

"Lust"
You could say he meant as a metaphor for Ulquiorra's "Desire" to prove he is the strongest, to Ichigo. (Oh the irony. )

Inferiority Complexes aside.. It could also represent his "Desire" to figure Ichigo out While he is proving himself worthy of him

Since the first time he met Ichigo. He could sense that Ichigo was the stronger of the two. It doesn't make sense to him. Its a contradiction...how could the strongest guy be such trash. How could such trash, be the strongest guy?

Its something he "desires" know very badly


(I am going to laugh my ass of this chapter)

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Arachne

Honestly, your theory doesn’t seem wholly thought out, or at the very least, ignores a plethora of factors in favor of your world view.

I don't really care, but alright.

And Ichigo is....what? An oldman?

Exactly my point, if teens are mindless sheep and cheer for bad guys in order to feel badass. Why are good some of the most popular characters in the manga? Why do people cheer for them in a fight and not random thug #22?

Sorry Ichigo could have done a lot, if it wasnt for the hero complex he was bestowed with .

- Lets take GJ Vs Ichigo .... when GJ shot elbow darts at Ichigo . Ichigo avoided the darts then realized they were going to strike Orihime ..... Ichigo chose to be a sheild .Now replace Ichigo with Hichigo would have used that as a momentary distraction to strike GJ . Without bothering the well being of Orihime ....

- Another instance Ichigo would have driven his sword through Byakuya throat rather than give him a fighting chance ,

- Ichigo Vs Dol .... Ichigo chose to go Bankai to protect Nel . Once again he could have used Nel to create an opening

Tweens have been mindless sheep or you think Justin/My chemical Romance would sell records ? Do I even need to comment on the whole emo culture

Again, where is the link to this Shonen guideline? I'd like to see it myself. You claimed there was a "guidline" for badguys and I'd like to see it.

Bad guy guidelines ....

- Have no respect for human life

- Betray your best friend / Comrade

- Anyone and everyone is a pawn to your schemes

- Bully the weak and feel good about yourself

- Use underhanded schemes to gain advantage in conflict

- Verbally masturbate how awesome you are, rather than your actions dictating that .

Do I need to go on and these are examples from Bleach itself ....

No, it’s called being pissed off because either a character you liked lost or died in a stupidly absurd fashion thanks to some h4x.

By your logic people would be nerd raging over every random hollow slain by Ichigo.

Wait hasn't Ichigo won all his fights with hax in HM Arc ? We are So far in HM arc people get still surprised by it ? Or your expecting KT to magically deliver ...

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by hakisak

Bitter much? I think that we people start insulting me instead of just showing me where I was wrong. Why am I a fangirl? Who said I was a even a FANGIRL?! :stare:

He isn't owning anyone. He can't. Ok how dumb it is for him to go to a Second or Complete release... On a guy he can just own? Why would he do that?

One I was saying Kubo was doing it to give Ulquiorra fangirls more I never said anything about you

Two Overkill is cool my friend, in a fighting game why kill the guy with a final punch when you can use an overly powerful attack for overkill.

Hakisak, Ichigo is the strongest in terms to raw power but actual fighting strength he is beaten by a lot of characters.

Also Geta I agree with the Urahara thing, also I don't think all tweens are like that, I was one just a year ago and I thought a lot of villains were overly cliche and or just stupid, take Ganondorf for example I still jest at him because instead of killing Link before he can stop him, after he defeats the first 2/3 of his monsters he decides to let him survive and he keeps power ups in dungeons for him to find. Same with Aizen and instead of killing Ichigo now he decides to stroke his ego and just let Ichigo continue tearing down his army because he thinks he is too high to even be touched.

[saravis]

Wow, the only other time I can remember a scenario like this is when Byakuya went from shikai to bankai to pawn Renji. I wonder how the result will compare. It would be amusing if Ulq ended up exploding from too much power, uncool, but damn amusing.

[Arachne]

Tweens have been mindless sheep or you think Justin/My chemical Romance would sell records ? Do I even need to comment on the whole emo culture

I was a tween and did not embrace emo and I didn't like MCR nor did my freinds. Also, a lot of tweens hate emo culture and it is normally targeted. Please, go outside and interact with other human beings.

ad guy guidelines ....

- Have no respect for human life

- Betray your best friend / Comrade

- Anyone and everyone is a pawn to your schemes

- Bully the weak and feel good about yourself

- Use underhanded schemes to gain advantage in conflict

- Verbally masturbate how awesome you are, rather than your actions dictating that .

Uh..is this your interpretation or an offical mandate for shonen authors because, honestly, it seems like your entire argument boils down to "because I say so".

Do I need to go on and these are examples from Bleach itself ....

Except Halibal also cares about her own fraccion and would not betray them. There are countless examples of villains in Bleach not falling into your mandate. Nel was a "villain" and didn't even like fighting.

<_< OMG...the holes in your argument alone would sink the titanic. No need for icebergs clearly.

Wait hasn't Ichigo won all his fights with hax in HM Arc ? We are So far in HM arc people get still surprised by it ? Or your expecting KT to magically deliver ..

Ichigo beat Szyazel?

[Nvis]

Time for another powerup for Ichigo?

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by hakisak

You could say he meant as a metaphor for Ulquiorra's "Desire" to prove he is the strongest, to Ichigo. (Oh the irony. )

Inferiority Complexes aside.. It could also represent his "Desire" to figure Ichigo out While he is proving himself worthy of him

Since the first time he met Ichigo. He could sense that Ichigo was the stronger of the two. It doesn't make sense to him. Its a contradiction...how could the strongest guy be such trash. How could such trash, be the strongest guy?

Its something he "desires" know very badly

Okay, firstly Ulquiorra has never had a desire to prove his superiority to anyone. This is why he's one of the more popular villains. He's seems to be exempt from a couple of the guidelines Geta posted...

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

- Use underhanded schemes to gain advantage in conflict

- Verbally masturbate how awesome you are, rather than your actions dictating tthat.

...When Ichigo was under the impression that Ulq was numero uno, he freely tore his own shirt up to prove him wrong. The purpose of that was to dishearten Ichigo further, not to stroke his ego. Bear that in mind because this is exactly what he's doing in this chapter, he's trying break Ichigo down mentally so he loses the will to fight.

After all, why bother fighting if you can't win? It's in line with his logic,so he's confused. I'm betting even if and when he dies, he won't make a big fuss and stay logical like he always does.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

After all, why bother fighting if you can't win? It's in line with his logic,so he's confused. I'm betting even if and when he dies, he won't make a big fuss and stay logical like he always does.

I hope he doesn't I want to see a psycho Ulquiorra, because once someone like him lose they cool they become psychos (Lelouch comes to mind straight to mind, maybe L cos I didn't read that far into DN to know). If a logical mind like Ulquiorra loses all sense of logic then you know their opponent is screwed.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Arachne

I was a tween and did not embrace emo and I didn't like MCR nor did my freinds. Also, a lot of tweens hate emo culture and it is normally targeted. Please, go outside and interact with other human beings.

Whoever is talking about you ? And please dont retort personal remarks .....

Uh..is this your interpretation or an offical mandate for shonen authors because, honestly, it seems like your entire argument boils down to "because I say so".

Please dont use show me the proof argument its stale and can go both ways .... I can ask you the very same thing

Except Halibal also cares about her own fraccion and would not betray them. There are countless examples of villains in Bleach not falling into your mandate. Nel was a "villain" and didn't even like fighting.

Doesnt Aizen care about Gin Tousen .... does that make him magically break the cliche ....

Are you saying just because Tesla cared for Noi, he doesn't fall in bad guy archetype despite what he did to Orihime .

When did Halibel Stark resort to villiany .... They are evil because they chose to support Aizen, who plans to harvest one-million modsoul.

Ichigo beat Szyazel?

Ichigo beat GJ with power of resolve alone . Now matter what GJ dished out . Power of Resolve Prevailed ...

[Arachne]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Whoever is talking about you ? And please dont retort personal remarks .....

You were, you were talking about me, my friends, etc. I was a tween when Emo was just coming up.

You called tweens mindless sheep and stated they only cheer for villains because they want to be badass. I'd ask you to refrain from personal attacks as well. If you don’t want to be treated with discourtesy then I’ll ask you not to do the same.

Please dont use show me the proof argument its stale and can go both ways .... I can ask you the very same thing

Except I am not the one who made a claim about how villains should and should not be portrayed in Shonen. You are, so why shouldn't you be forced to provide some measure of proof?

If you are going to make claims you should have the decency of proving me with evidence otherwise I can't be expected to take your word for it.

Are you saying just because Tesla cared for Noi, he doesn't fall in bad guy archetype despite what he did to Orihime .

No. I am saying if your are going to paint the whole of Bleach villains as being the examples you posted then I must disagree. Also, random villains from Bleach who fit that caricature exist in all mediums not just shonen so I don't see how that proves your point at all.

[christinemarie]

Even with that powerful Cero blast it just destroyed some part of his mask yet unscratched that makes Ulquiorra serious enough to take the 2nd form (only Vasta Lorde class of arrancars can pull this one out similar to Shinigami's Bankai)


What makes Ichigo stronger after each battle? Hogyoku?

Remember what his Inner Hollow told to Zangetsu. He knows Ichigo gets stronger every battle *this probably the after effects of half of Hogyoku powers which includes Rukia's half of her power, Byakuya remove all the powers Rukia lent to him and temporarily disabled the Hogyoku power* that makes him happy and get to grasp this power on his own. Ichigo sealed his Inner Hollow under the training Former Vice Captain of the 12th squad and Former Captain of the 5th squad.

So the main reason why Ichigo keeps on getting stronger due to the half of Hogyoku's power.. As Ichigo keeps on drawing power the power it releases increases if only Ichigo can make his own Hogyoku into 100%.


Aizen is interested in Ichigo since he is similar to him. Aizen probably can use Vizard's mask and Arrancar skills (similar to the former 5th captain's cero blast on Grimmjow)

If his inner Hollow is very powerful and drawing Hogyoku power at maximum level too this makes Ichigo the strongest Vizard and the only person who can fight evenly with Aizen in the future.

Someone important to Ichigo should die to make Ichigo mad and very powerful and would be manipulated once again by his Inner Hollow that can match Ulquiorra.

Aizen seems aware that Ichigo can be sacrificed to make the King's Key since he absorbed half of Hogyoku's power or he is waiting for Ichigo to make Hogyoku reach 100%. He even used Ulquiorra so Ichigo becomes stronger. His attack to the town actually is also a decoy as well and make them think that Aizen's target is the town. Since if that is his real target he should have dealt with earlier.

[Cub-Sama]

What is your basis for any of that, chapters and page plz.