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Old 2009-02-26, 06:45   Link #81
Kafriel
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why would he even need a second release NOW
So that he can die a lot more shamefully in the next chapter
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Old 2009-02-26, 06:46   Link #82
Justin Kim
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
In the end haven't all of Ichigo's fights been like that, he has a flashback reassuring him of his resolve, his opponent has a flashback highlighting their backstory, they go after each other in the end the villain is ended. Hopefully, Ulquiorra after seeing his resolve just utter: 'Even with all that you are still trash' then cut him down, but in reality what I said before is probably going to be the actual ending of the battle because of how unoriginal Tite is a lot of the time.
I agree, but oh you guys missed something. In actuality I think this was an episode, but I don't remember if it was in the manga as well , but when Ichigo was practicing with the vizards on how to control his hollow form, he's getting pretty badly beat in his own mental state by hollow Ichigo. After he "resolved" to fight more, he suddenly got that pure instinct of killing to become stronger and protect those that were around him. You can initially note that the reiatsu exponentially grows, I mean just look at him cross the fear in hollow Ichigo's eyes. It's whenever he resolves - his eyes throw off a blue sheen, and that's exactly the same way he beat Renji, resolve. I don't know where the heck those eyes come from, but I am pretty sure Ichigo is going to somewhat use that to his advantage when fighting Ulquiorra. Obviously Ulquiorra stands no chance, he's just using his typical mental warfare. Just like what he did with Orihime, to abandon all hope for her friends, and just die out like the rest of the others. He purposefully wanted her heart to waver. Ulquiorra is just completely afraid of Ichigo and his abilities. I think from the persepctive of Ulq, Ichigo isn't probably even a regular human, always suprising him with new tactics, and releases. Especially his reiatsu growth after every fight. But then again, it's hard to tell due to Ulquiorra's massive lectures, and lack of feeling within words. (Like no facial expressions, unless Ichigo chucks a huge Getsuga Tenshou at him).
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Old 2009-02-26, 06:57   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
In the end haven't all of Ichigo's fights been like that, he has a flashback reassuring him of his resolve, his opponent has a flashback highlighting their backstory, they go after each other in the end the villain is ended. Hopefully, Ulquiorra after seeing his resolve just utter: 'Even with all that you are still trash' then cut him down, but in reality what I said before is probably going to be the actual ending of the battle because of how unoriginal Tite is a lot of the time.
Or Zangetsu comes an teaches Ichigo something.

A little off topic, but I just wonder what happened to Nel. I didn't see her since Inoue had healed her. Did everyone leave this poor child alone in the desert? Inoue taken away. Ichigo after her, and I don't think Kenpachi does babysitting for an arrancar.
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Old 2009-02-26, 07:06   Link #84
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She became Yacchiru's sidekick and they're roaming HM together. Would have been so much better than the shinigami rabbit-drawings
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Old 2009-02-26, 07:58   Link #85
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Nel and Yachiru, tag team? Some comic relief is needed. That would be most excellent. And welcome...soon. I think that's part of what's been missing from Bleach lately. It used to have a rather delightful mix of action/suspense/drama and comedy/levity.

I'm not really sure what I want to see in the next chapter at this point. Now, I think I'll just roll with this fight's punches and see what happens. I'll wait it out...for a while.

It's about time for something to happen, either peripherally pertaining to this fight or otherwise. Something...maybe not unexpected or predicted, but different nonetheless.

I'd still like there to be some serious amazingness from this fight, from both sides.
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Old 2009-02-26, 08:21   Link #86
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Minor nitpick, but wasn't Shawlong just an evolved menos? I seem to remember that Grimmjow was the only adjucha in the group.
My problem with this is that in the very chapter of Grimmjow's flashback, it's stated that Gillian have no individuality at all. They are all the gigantic, black, pointed-nose-masked hollow that we saw Ichigo kill in the early Karakura arc, and foot soldiers, as Hitsu said. The fact that Shawlong was able to talk, to me, is proof enough of him being an adjucha in the flashback.

Furthermore, he must have been leading the group before he offered for Grimmjow to take over, and why would adjuchas follow a gillian? Now, consider the fact they recognized Grimmjow as an adjucha on sight; my interpretation is that they knew this from his animal-like shape (as opposed to a typical gillian).

Finally, if you look at chapter 285 page 10, Shawlong refers to their entire group as destined to be adjuchas from birth (as in nothing more, he wasn't bragging or anything). I see no way Shawlong was a Gillian
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Old 2009-02-26, 08:27   Link #87
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Shawlong,D-roy and company were all adjuchas when they met grimmjow BUT since he took a bite off all of them they could have regressed to gillians until Aizen arrancarized them.
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Old 2009-02-26, 08:37   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Kafriel
Shawlong,D-roy and company were all adjuchas when they met grimmjow BUT since he took a bite off all of them they could have regressed to gillians until Aizen arrancarized them.
D-roy was the only adjuchas Grimm was confirmed to have bitten. He didn't regress even after travelling with Grimmjow for some time after that, but his evolution definitely was halted. Adjuchas don't regress unless they don't eat enough hollows of their same type. Also, Shawlong offered Grimm to eat himself along with the others but it's not shown whether GJ took the offer or not.


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No, because that's the very reason WHY they asked him to eat a part of them. Not only does it halt evolution, it halts de-evolution

Sadly, DB didn't make this clear in the anime episode :P
I'm pretty sure that's because it was never said in the manga
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Old 2009-02-26, 08:50   Link #89
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Man,I guess I really gotta start reading the manga from the beginning!
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Old 2009-02-26, 08:50   Link #90
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I'm pretty sure that's because it was never said in the manga
ugh, I specifically remember having an argument with a friend, taking the exact opposite stance I am right now. They showed me one particular translation that did say that it stops de-evolution as well, and I even checked the Wiki, and it stated this there. This was about three or four months ago.

I just checked now, and oddly enough, I can't find either. The Wiki must have changed. The only thing stopping me from digressing, here, is that my friend who told me this is 100% fluent in Japanese, and is particularly fond of reading/watching raws. I'll have to ask, later.

Either way, I hope I'm wrong here, because for them to have regressed to Gillian would eliminate one major inconsistency on Kubo's part :P

but at the same time, why would they ask him to eat them if it did nothing beneficial to them???

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It is said in the manga in chapters 284 and 285, called Historia de Pantheras Y Su Sombre and Devouring Alone The Solitude of the King.

It only says if you stop cosuming hollows of the same type will you degenerate.
that's not what we're talking about, Kyu has a point lol

we're discussing the reason Grimmjow was asked to eat the group he led
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Old 2009-02-26, 08:56   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I'm pretty sure that's because it was never said in the manga
It is said in the manga in chapters 284 and 285, called Historia de Pantheras Y Su Sombre and Devouring Alone The Solitude of the King.

It only says if you stop cosuming hollows of the same type will you degenerate.
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Old 2009-02-26, 09:28   Link #92
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Glacial View Post
ugh, I specifically remember having an argument with a friend, taking the exact opposite stance I am right now. They showed me one particular translation that did say that it stops de-evolution as well, and I even checked the Wiki, and it stated this there. This was about three or four months ago.
I haven't seen the raw for that chapter, but like I said D-roy was bitten by Grimmjow when they first met and traveled with the group some time after (long enough for them to eat over a thousand hollow) and didn't regress. Granted, we don't know how long regression would take, but if D-Roy didn't de-generate, that leads me to believe that bites don't cause regression.

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but at the same time, why would they ask him to eat them if it did nothing beneficial to them???
They viewed Grimmjow as their king. Maybe they felt that if it was hopeless for them to become VL no matter what, the least they could do is help their leader become one.
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Old 2009-02-26, 09:40   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I haven't seen the raw for that chapter, but like I said D-roy was bitten by Grimmjow when they first met and traveled with the group some time after (long enough for them to eat over a thousand hollow) and didn't regress. Granted, we don't know how long regression would take, but if D-Roy didn't de-generate, that leads me to believe that bites don't cause regression.
Bites don't lead to regression it leads to you staying the same but not eating leads to back to Gillian where you can never evolve again.
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Old 2009-02-26, 09:49   Link #94
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but at the same time, why would they ask him to eat them if it did nothing beneficial to them???
They would become part of a greater being, I think this was mentioned in the anime too.
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Old 2009-02-26, 11:22   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I haven't seen the raw for that chapter, but like I said D-roy was bitten by Grimmjow when they first met and traveled with the group some time after (long enough for them to eat over a thousand hollow) and didn't regress. Granted, we don't know how long regression would take, but if D-Roy didn't de-generate, that leads me to believe that bites don't cause regression.

They viewed Grimmjow as their king. Maybe they felt that if it was hopeless for them to become VL no matter what, the least they could do is help their leader become one.
Bites don't cause regression, you're right, I think (hope) we can all agree on at least this. They limit further evolution, as stated

As for viewing Grimmjow as their king, this is why I used to think they asked him to eat them in that argument a few months back. I actually have a crack theory that he learned Desgarron by eating part of Shawlong :P

Anyway, I still believe that Shawlong was an adjuchas arrancar (albeit a weaker one, though the second strongest of the group there) in his Karakura fight vs. Hitsu, but I'll admit it's possible, given evidence, that he eventually regressed to a gillian.

On topic:

We still don't know for 100% certain Ulquiorra is a Vasto, we've just got a lot of strong clues. So let's stop using this as a base for arguments :/

Although if he is a mere adjucha, Vastos are gonna be total rapists
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Old 2009-02-26, 11:59   Link #96
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My problem with this is that in the very chapter of Grimmjow's flashback, it's stated that Gillian have no individuality at all. They are all the gigantic, black, pointed-nose-masked hollow that we saw Ichigo kill in the early Karakura arc, and foot soldiers, as Hitsu said. The fact that Shawlong was able to talk, to me, is proof enough of him being an adjucha in the flashback.
Only normal Gillian's have no individuality, it flat out states those that can evolve have individuality in fact you see what is most likely Gillian Shawlong on page 6 of chap 284. Remember that Espada #9 was also a self admited gillian and was pretty chatty.


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Shawlong,D-roy and company were all adjuchas when they met grimmjow BUT since he took a bite off all of them they could have regressed to gillians until Aizen arrancarized them.
Not all of them can be adjuchas unless Urahara has no idea what he is talking about since he told Ishida that the hollows that came with Grimjaw were a mixed group of gillian and adjuchas(242 page 9). At the very least the one that was fighting Matsumoto was a gillian and likely D-roy was as well since all the others listed him as trash a few others may have been as well. As a side note Azein claimed that all of the ones who had been killed were Gillians, but I find that to be very unlikely.
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Old 2009-02-26, 12:02   Link #97
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Ichigo: "I will fight until the moment comes for my next power-up...". In that aspect, he cannot be in any worse yet any better situation.

Also, it is really amazing to see how a blabbermouth an Espada (and someone beyond the level of the useless trash that was crashed earlier) can be. Ulquiorra could have raped Inhigo over and over, endlessly, but, no, he is also waiting for the same thing. This everlasting foreplay has already started to give headaches. Maybe, as long as it would exponentially increase the use of Ichigo's mask, any position is acceptable.
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Old 2009-02-26, 12:40   Link #98
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Only normal Gillian's have no individuality, it flat out states those that can evolve have individuality in fact you see what is most likely Gillian Shawlong on page 6 of chap 284. Remember that Espada #9 was also a self admitted gillian and was pretty chatty.




Not all of them can be adjuchas unless Urahara has no idea what he is talking about since he told Ishida that the hollows that came with Grimjaw were a mixed group of gillian and adjuchas(242 page 9). At the very least the one that was fighting Matsumoto was a gillian and likely D-roy was as well since all the others listed him as trash a few others may have been as well. As a side note Azein claimed that all of the ones who had been killed were Gillians, but I find that to be very unlikely.
It's true that Nakim wasn't in D-roy's team in GJ's flashback,so he's probably a gillian, and I think D-roy was weak because his arrancarization kinda failed (but I'm not 100% sure on this).Aaroniero was a gillian but his ability was "to have more powers" so he could be on a totally different level than others.
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Old 2009-02-26, 13:47   Link #99
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It's true that Nakim wasn't in D-roy's team in GJ's flashback,so he's probably a gillian, and I think D-roy was weak because his arrancarization kinda failed (but I'm not 100% sure on this).Aaroniero was a gillian but his ability was "to have more powers" so he could be on a totally different level than others.
No, he was, his hollow form looked like a gillain with a diffrent mask (284 page 8 but page 10 has a better pic of him. Nothing points to D-roy's arrancarization haveing failed. We do know that he had been an arrancar before Azein got the orb as he was shown to have been one in chap 25 page 18 but since he did have a number the orb was used on him to upgrade him.
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Old 2009-02-26, 14:43   Link #100
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Maybe the reason Ulq seems so intent on making Ichigo give up has something to do with his submission to Aizen? Perhaps at first he fought against Aizen's reign but, after being put in his place time and again, he lost his 'resolve'? Unlikely I know, but at least it would make for an interesting flashback when Ulq marvels at how Ichigo's resolve defeated him
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