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Old 2009-03-04, 16:16   Link #21
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Wolcik View Post
Could you point to me exaples of character development in One Piece? Cause except for crew members who didn't want to join (or something like that) started loving their nakama, I don't see much ^^'
Example 1
Remember when Zoro told Luffy that if he were to ever get in the way of his dream he would kill him? Much later on at Thriller Bark, he willingly sacrificed himself to save Luffy's life. He was willing to put aside his dream in exchange for allowing Luffy to live and carry on with his dream of becoming the pirate king. That was a very powerful moment of character development for Zoro. He has shown genuine care for his captain and loyalty to the very end.

Example 2
Ussop temporarily disbanding from the Strawhat crew when Luffy decided it was time to get a replacement for the Going Merry. Ussop had grown so fond of the Going Merry that he treated it as a living being and a wonderful friend. He would never abandon it at all costs and he would even go so far as to challenge his captain to a duel out of complete disgust and anger. After he lost to Luffy, he assumed the persona of "Sogeking" (his alter ego of being a brave warrior of the sea) in an attempt to help the strawhats rescue Robin because he still deeply cared about them. Even after hating Luffy for treating the Going Merry as a disposable object when it could no longer function, he had the courage to put aside his pride, take off his mask, show himself to Luffy, and motivate him to get up and kick the crap out of Lucci so that they could all go back safely with Robin and continue their journey. But it didn't end there, in the aftermath of the Enies Lobby arc when the strawhat crew was leaving Water 7, Ussop wanted to tag along but the crew kept on ignoring him at the request of Zoro, for he felt that Ussop should apologize for his behaviour when he left the crew. Eventually, Ussop came to this realization and he began to hysterically cry as he said "I'm Sorry!!!". Upon hearing that, Luffy immediately grabbed his hand and took him back on board. That was an act of bravery and courage on Ussop's part, and it brought him one step closer to becoming a brave man of the sea.

Now that is character development.
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Old 2009-03-04, 16:17   Link #22
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I knew that someone was going to bring up this point. Yes, that is a part of Luffy's character, being reckless that is. I'm just saying that he should think a little bit about the repercussions of his actions sometimes, otherwise we're just getting the same story with him again and again. It almost feels as if there is no character development with him sometimes.
I guess Luffy just needs another ass kicking.
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Old 2009-03-04, 16:23   Link #23
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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I guess Luffy just needs another ass kicking.
I agree. I guess he didn't learn his lesson against Kuma, Kizaru, and Sentoumaru, at the Sabaody Archipelago. Another beat down awaits him.
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Old 2009-03-04, 17:36   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Example 1
Remember when Zoro told Luffy that if he were to ever get in the way of his dream he would kill him? Much later on at Thriller Bark, he willingly sacrificed himself to save Luffy's life. He was willing to put aside his dream in exchange for allowing Luffy to live and carry on with his dream of becoming the pirate king. That was a very powerful moment of character development for Zoro. He has shown genuine care for his captain and loyalty to the very end.

Example 2
Ussop temporarily disbanding from the Strawhat crew when Luffy decided it was time to get a replacement for the Going Merry. Ussop had grown so fond of the Going Merry that he treated it as a living being and a wonderful friend. He would never abandon it at all costs and he would even go so far as to challenge his captain to a duel out of complete disgust and anger. After he lost to Luffy, he assumed the persona of "Sogeking" (his alter ego of being a brave warrior of the sea) in an attempt to help the strawhats rescue Robin because he still deeply cared about them. Even after hating Luffy for treating the Going Merry as a disposable object when it could no longer function, he had the courage to put aside his pride, take off his mask, show himself to Luffy, and motivate him to get up and kick the crap out of Lucci so that they could all go back safely with Robin and continue their journey. But it didn't end there, in the aftermath of the Enies Lobby arc when the strawhat crew was leaving Water 7, Ussop wanted to tag along but the crew kept on ignoring him at the request of Zoro, for he felt that Ussop should apologize for his behaviour when he left the crew. Eventually, Ussop came to this realization and he began to hysterically cry as he said "I'm Sorry!!!". Upon hearing that, Luffy immediately grabbed his hand and took him back on board. That was an act of bravery and courage on Ussop's part, and it brought him one step closer to becoming a brave man of the sea.

Now that is character development.
Well, that's a good point - good examples. However you didn't have to write so much about Ussop quiting the crew and then returning, I read and watch OP you know XD
I guess they can change their vaules in OP.

Okey, so you want Luffy to think logicaly when facing the boss of Prison he entered, right? Like entering a ID was completly logical and not suicidal act.
But is it fighting Magellan now illogical and reckless? What else he could do? Run? Where? Luffy don't know which way South is, and Magellan knows this place - not only because he is the chief and set a trap there for him, but his office is on this level. Besides when it comes to Luffy, he'd end up fighting the boss sooner or later, like he always does (e.g. Crocodile, Rob Lucci) - the thing that bothers us all is that he eneded up doing this so soon - before even seeing Ace - so most people hope that the fight will be postponed.
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Old 2009-03-04, 17:39   Link #25
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Haha still not news of Level 6.
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Old 2009-03-04, 23:05   Link #26
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That's cause there is no level 6 [Confirmed Yet].
Many people are speculating there is one.

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2009-03-05 at 00:54.
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Old 2009-03-05, 01:29   Link #27
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That's cause there is no level 6.
It hasn't been confirmed, but there could be a Level 6 or more. Check Ch. 527 pg. 9-10. Buggy describes the number of Levels. Personally, Buggy has only been down to the Fourth Level. Level Five is for bounties over one million. It's been rumored among the prisoners that Level Five isn't the end of it. That on the level below Five is such an evil monster that they want it erased from history.

I'm hoping that this weird theory in my head is nothing more then a theory, but I wonder slightly IF Ace wanted to get captured, because White Beard wants who, or whatever is in that level. To put it in a way I think more people will grasp. It would kind of be how the Joker in The Dark Knight wanted to get captured so he would be pulled into where he could kill the Chinese guy that Batman captured earlier.
I have some serious doubts about my crackpot theory. It would be completely dependent on Black Beard turning Ace into the World Government. Though it's not too far off the mark. Black Beard was looking to turn in bounties over one million before he sent someone to approach the World Government about joining the members of the Shichibukai. As shown in Ch. 234 pg 17 and 236.
It would also depend on Ace having a way to escape his cuffs. Past that it would be almost ingenious way to get at whatever White Beard might want down there. You get yourself captured and then you are closer to your target then you would be if you tried to break in.
Wouldn't it be weird if down a level deeper if there are survivors of the Buster Call on Ohara Island? In Ch. 398 there is a Marine who asks if there were any survivors. Someone replies that "There couldn't be any.". That doesn't mean he knows whether there are or not. That line always caught my attention. If Oda wanted people to think everyone was dead, then why not just have the person say that no one survived. The comment he used was more ambiguous.

I'm just throwing this theory out there to explain one reason why Ace might not want Luffy to come down to his level. I know it's much more likely that he just doesn't want Luffy to get caught and hurt trying to rescue him.

Going back I'm noticing that in those splash pages it shows Crocodile without his hook and he has a left hand and being held with other members of Baroque Works, Ch. 398 pg. splash page. Though as we have seen him in Impel Down he has a hook. These splash pages are normally considered canon. Why would you cage someone up armed? Unless you just want people to know who he is from just his hand.
Though on the splash page of Ch. 403 Crocodile refuses to escape and has his hook back.
I guess you could just reason that the prison shown in this splash page adventure wasn't Impel Down. The Ch. 412 Splash Page even shows Mr. 3 and Bon Clay being tossed in the cell with Crocodile and Das Bones, who stays with Crocodile. Later on the next Splash Page's caption says how they will be taken to Impel Down. One has to wonder why that wouldn't of been the first place you would send someone like Crocodile, a former Shichikubai and devil fruit user who's bounty exceeded one million.

On a side note. How could the Buster Call on Enes Lobby of come FROM Impel Down? I remember Luffy mentioning that as he arrived with Boa. Judging from how the path is described. That trip should take days, because the only way to get there is through the current. I don't think the current allows for direct travel from Impel Down and Enes Lobby.
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Old 2009-03-05, 01:51   Link #28
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^Phenomenol is just a stickler for exact quotes and non-hypotheticals . So, he only really discusses confirmed facts ("canon"), allowing very little leeway in regards to speculative facts/theories. It can be a bit of a drag sometimes, but every forum needs a no-nonesense poster.
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Old 2009-03-05, 02:37   Link #29
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^Phenomenol is just a stickler for exact quotes and non-hypotheticals . So, he only really discusses confirmed facts ("canon"), allowing very little leeway in regards to speculative facts/theories. It can be a bit of a drag sometimes, but every forum needs a no-nonesense poster.
Well, there wouldn't be a lot of sense at hinting at a possible Sixth Level unless there really could be one. It would also make sense.
If Level Five is for bounties higher then one million. It stands to reason you would get even more dangerous then that, or you would get people that you just never want to escape or be seen. Much in the same way the World Government wanted to wipe out Ohara for knowing stuff. They would describe them as monsters. They even called Robin the Child of Demons for no reason other then she knew things they want secret. It just sounds like something they would do.
That's why I proposed the idea the idea of possible survivors of Ohara being down there. As unlikely as that could be.
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Old 2009-03-05, 03:23   Link #30
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^Phenomenol is just a stickler for exact quotes and non-hypotheticals . So, he only really discusses confirmed facts ("canon"), allowing very little leeway in regards to speculative facts/theories. It can be a bit of a drag sometimes, but every forum needs a no-nonesense poster.
There are too many things wrong about this post.
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Old 2009-03-05, 04:34   Link #31
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I agree. I guess he didn't learn his lesson against Kuma, Kizaru, and Sentoumaru, at the Sabaody Archipelago. Another beat down awaits him.
Hell I'm not surprised, he learned a bit for the butt kicking Aokiji gave him, but that can only go for so long.
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Old 2009-03-05, 05:04   Link #32
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Im sure there is a secret level for extraordinary criminal beings.Maybe real Odz with a brain might've deserved level 6.Steel bars and torture stuff just cant handle it sometimes, yes we saw giants but how in hell can you put Odz in a cell....a being which can ruin the places walls and everything in a desperate moment and end it all? Some patients require special attention
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Old 2009-03-05, 05:05   Link #33
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I agree. I guess he didn't learn his lesson against Kuma, Kizaru, and Sentoumaru, at the Sabaody Archipelago. Another beat down awaits him.
Well, try and remember that Luffy never even met Kuma that first time on Thriller Bark. When Hachi told Luffy that if you strike the World Nobles a Marine Admiral will show up. Luffy seemed concerned about Aokiji being one who might be sent.
Just because Luffy is being somewhat reckless right now doesn't mean he hasn't learned anything from it. We have been slowly seeing hints that Luffy can use Haki. Luffy thought up the Gear system after his fight with Aokiji, but we didn't even get a hint of that until his fight with Blueno then later with Lucci.
There was nothing between the Aokiji fight and the Blueno fight that showed what Luffy had in mind.

I'm quite sure Luffy will have something new pretty soon, but unclear when we see the product of it. His defeat to Kuma was so heartbreaking to him. That always gets some reaction later.
He even thought of the idea that ultimately defeated the Minotaros. He used Mr. 3's ability and added it to his Rifle attack. That's probably something he remembered from a long time ago when he used Mr. 3's ability on the Hammer move.

Luffy has just not had an opponent in front of him yet that required a new tactic. Maybe with the Chief Warden he will pull out some new trick. Only reason Luffy pulled out Gear Second the first time was because his normally attacks weren't doing much of anything.
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Old 2009-03-05, 08:32   Link #34
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Well, try and remember that Luffy never even met Kuma that first time on Thriller Bark. When Hachi told Luffy that if you strike the World Nobles a Marine Admiral will show up. Luffy seemed concerned about Aokiji being one who might be sent.
Just because Luffy is being somewhat reckless right now doesn't mean he hasn't learned anything from it. We have been slowly seeing hints that Luffy can use Haki. Luffy thought up the Gear system after his fight with Aokiji, but we didn't even get a hint of that until his fight with Blueno then later with Lucci.
There was nothing between the Aokiji fight and the Blueno fight that showed what Luffy had in mind.

I'm quite sure Luffy will have something new pretty soon, but unclear when we see the product of it. His defeat to Kuma was so heartbreaking to him. That always gets some reaction later.
He even thought of the idea that ultimately defeated the Minotaros. He used Mr. 3's ability and added it to his Rifle attack. That's probably something he remembered from a long time ago when he used Mr. 3's ability on the Hammer move.

Luffy has just not had an opponent in front of him yet that required a new tactic. Maybe with the Chief Warden he will pull out some new trick. Only reason Luffy pulled out Gear Second the first time was because his normally attacks weren't doing much of anything.
Plus, if he didn't know that after Bruno was Rob Lucci (x5 stronger guy + devil fruit + special technique) than he might try to deafet Bruno without Gears, but he used him to find out how to use his new trick in a real fight.
It's like for Zoro's Ashura - after he used it agains Kaku, he didn't have three katanas, and than he was always injured, so when he eventually used it, it wasn't strong enough.
They don't show their best moves untill they have no other choice. So fighting Warden now might be a good chance for a new trick, but I have a feeling that something big will interupt the fight. Like WB finally starting his attack or giant earthquake I have to say that I thought that this fight would happen on level 5, when Luffy would find out that there is actually level 6.
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Old 2009-03-05, 09:31   Link #35
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Okey, so you want Luffy to think logicaly when facing the boss of Prison he entered, right? Like entering a ID was completly logical and not suicidal act.
All I'm saying is that Luffy has to stop being so reckless and be a lot more careful before he initiates fights, otherwise severe consequences and a world of hurt are in store for him. The incident at the Sabaody Archipelago and Moria's warning of the dangers in the New World attest to this. It's like when he fought against Aokiji. He had the audacity to think that he'd simply knock him out should he try to apprehend Robin? He was informed good and well by Robin about Aokiji's profile in the marines force, and with this knowledge he still insisted on striking the admiral? How foolish and look what it got him, a complete and utter defeat. And yes, Luffy entering Impel Down was another stupid move on his part. Without the help of Hancock, Buggy, Mr. 3, and Mr. 2, he would be dead/imprisoned by now. He had absolutely no knowledge about the Impel Down fortress, and he just thinks that he's going to save Ace like that with his resolve alone? Lot easier said than done, Luffy.
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Old 2009-03-05, 10:04   Link #36
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All I'm saying is that Luffy has to stop being so reckless and be a lot more careful before he initiates fights, otherwise severe consequences and a world of hurt are in store for him. The incident at the Sabaody Archipelago and Moria's warning of the dangers in the New World attest to this. It's like when he fought against Aokiji. He had the audacity to think that he'd simply knock him out should he try to apprehend Robin? He was informed good and well by Robin about Aokiji's profile in the marines force, and with this knowledge he still insisted on striking the admiral? How foolish and look what it got him, a complete and utter defeat. And yes, Luffy entering Impel Down was another stupid move on his part. Without the help of Hancock, Buggy, Mr. 3, and Mr. 2, he would be dead/imprisoned by now. He had absolutely no knowledge about the Impel Down fortress, and he just thinks that he's going to save Ace like that with his resolve alone? Lot easier said than done, Luffy.
He entered Impel Down because he wants to save his brother, that all he cares about, and he does anything that is necessary to do so. If he was logical than he would just cope with the fact that he lost his brother.
Whenever something happens to Luffy you have to remember that he's Monkey D. Luffy, and he has super luck like in stats 10+/10. He's the guy that jumps to the sea while being tided in seastone web, and will 90% saved by a huge ghost unicorn half-whale half-monkey that appears once a 1000 years.

As for Aoki incident you have to remember what Aoki said about Luffy after the fight. He said that 1 on 1 fight could be that Luffy's crew would be safe and had time to run and save Robin - that's what a good captain do, and Luffy sometimes does things like that without Zoro telling him that he should. There is a possibility that Luffy thought that he could win, but he's the future Pirate freaking King, so he'll get there one day - to be the guy that can win against anybody, and if you don't believe me than ask Zoro. He won't get stronger while running away from fights, he might not be sayajin to gets power up just by getting beaten down or has his guts blown up, but he gets power up durring fights.
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Old 2009-03-05, 13:57   Link #37
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There is a possibility that Luffy thought that he could win, but he's the future Pirate freaking King, so he'll get there one day - to be the guy that can win against anybody, and if you don't believe me than ask Zoro. He won't get stronger while running away from fights, he might not be sayajin to gets power up just by getting beaten down or has his guts blown up, but he gets power up durring fights.
Oh, I have no doubt that he will be the future pirate king one day. But until then he still has a long way to go and he's still not even close to being on the strength level of the three world powers (Shichibukai, Marines, Yonkou). However, just like you said, it's just a matter of time before he starts kicking ass and is known not to be messed with. I agree with you that he won't get stronger by running away from fights, but that is not what I'm suggesting. I'm just saying that sometimes Luffy should think twice about who he picks a fight with. If he is told in a subtle/indirect way (i.e. Robin saying "That man is a marine admiral!!") that his opponent is way out of his league, than he should avoid a confrontation altogether instead of taking the risk of getting beaten to near death. The key to Luffy's great strength and power lies in his creativity and innovation (i.e. Gears and Haki), not in how often he fights against the bad guys. Possessing brute strength alone is not what grants Luffy great power. His great power is granted based on how he utilizes his tremendous strength, spirit, will, determination, and devil fruit, all together. Luffy's immensely strong will combined with his unparalled ingenuity practically makes his strength potential limitless. So in the end, what I'm trying to tell you is that Luffy is very strong, but he shouldn't let his ignorance blind him from the threats that lie in the obstacles ahead of him. He would be much better off if he incorporated a little thinking into his fighting strategies, for as we've seen he's really paid the price many times when he just recklessly charges into something.
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Old 2009-03-05, 14:29   Link #38
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Oh, I have no doubt that he will be the future pirate king one day. But until then he still has a long way to go and he's still not even close to being on the strength level of the three world powers (Shichibukai, Marines, Yonkou). However, just like you said, it's just a matter of time before he starts kicking ass and is known not to be messed with. I agree with you that he won't get stronger by running away from fights, but that is not what I'm suggesting. I'm just saying that sometimes Luffy should think twice about who he picks a fight with. If he is told in a subtle/indirect way (i.e. Robin saying "That man is a marine admiral!!") that his opponent is way out of his league, than he should avoid a confrontation altogether instead of taking the risk of getting beaten to near death. The key to Luffy's great strength and power lies in his creativity and innovation (i.e. Gears and Haki), not in how often he fights against the bad guys. Possessing brute strength alone is not what grants Luffy great power. His great power is granted based on how he utilizes his tremendous strength, spirit, will, determination, and devil fruit, all together. Luffy's immensely strong will combined with his unparalled ingenuity practically makes his strength potential limitless. So in the end, what I'm trying to tell you is that Luffy is very strong, but he shouldn't let his ignorance blind him from the threats that lie in the obstacles ahead of him. He would be much better off if he incorporated a little thinking into his fighting strategies, for as we've seen he's really paid the price many times when he just recklessly charges into something.
One of the awesome things about OP is that there is no real training arcs, they're strong and when times comes they're stronger because that's what is needed.

How can Luffy NOT be on Shichibukai level? He beat two of them already, and made one fell in love XD
I understand that the strenght of Shichibukai vary a lot, and Crocodile was probably the weakest of them, because he had Logia type and Luffy might have real problem with him because it was the second Logia he ever saw.
As for Aoki you have to remember after what Luffy attacked him. He said that he'll kill Robin. Luffy wanted to kick his ass for his lazy attitude few moments back but that was a comedic side of the story for me.

Let me ask you: What should Luffy do when Magellan jump in to fight him? But please remember while anwsering that just running away wouldn't probably change the fact that he has to fight him, but rather give Magellan chance to shot Luffy with his poison in the back.
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Old 2009-03-05, 14:49   Link #39
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There are too many things wrong about this post.
Naw, James is correct in his/her analysis.

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Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt
It hasn't been confirmed, but there could be a Level 6 or more. Check Ch. 527 pg. 9-10. Buggy describes the number of Levels. Personally, Buggy has only been down to the Fourth Level. Level Five is for bounties over one million. It's been rumored among the prisoners that Level Five isn't the end of it. That on the level below Five is such an evil monster that they want it erased from history.
Yep you are correct...It is possible that there maybe a level six and MORE.

Buggy: "And as you go deeper, to Level 2 and Level 3, the prisoners held there get more and more vicious and dangerous!!
I was put as far as Level 4 once, to undergo inferno torture...
...but I don't know nothin' about below that!!
I HAVE heard that Level 5 is only for the very worst, the ones worth nine digits or more. But some prisoners says there's floors even below that!!
Places where MONSTERS sleep, so terrible they had to be erased from the annals of history... It's only a rumor, but that might be where Ace is now
.
Anyhow! I can only guide you to Level 4, okay?!"
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Old 2009-03-05, 15:12   Link #40
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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How can Luffy NOT be on Shichibukai level? He beat two of them already, and made one fell in love XD
I understand that the strenght of Shichibukai vary a lot, and Crocodile was probably the weakest of them, because he had Logia type and Luffy might have real problem with him because it was the second Logia he ever saw.
Personally, I feel that Luffy's victories against Crocodile and Moria were big flukes. They easily could've beaten him but they greatly underestimated Luffy and that is what allowed them to be defeated. Each member of the shichibukai is extremely dangerous and powerful, and that is why they form one of the three world powers. They are all amongst the top tiers in the One Piece universe, Luffy isn't. To say that a rookie like Luffy is on their level at this point is a little far fetched. If Crocodile and Moria didn't mess around with Luffy, he definitely would've lost against them. Oda had to "dumb" them down by having them make stupid mistakes in order for them to lose and allow the story to advance.

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Let me ask you: What should Luffy do when Magellan jump in to fight him? But please remember while anwsering that just running away wouldn't probably change the fact that he has to fight him, but rather give Magellan chance to shot Luffy with his poison in the back.
Well, I have a feeling that Luffy has a few new tricks up his sleeve ever since he left Amazon Lily. It is quite possible that he has a much better understanding and grasp of his "king's Haki", and if this is true, then Magellan is in big trouble I would presume. Luffy doesn't have time to mess around and he will do whatever it takes to deal with Magellan as quickly as possible. So, yes I do feel that a fight between them is inevitable. Other than that, as an alternative scenario, the fight can be stopped for whatever reason as others have mentioned already, and Luffy can deal with him later with the help of Jimbei and Ace once he's rescued them.
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